Account suspension discussion [merged]

FOX.3582 · April 13, 2018

@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in
this thread
.

As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?
Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?
- You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)
- You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.
- Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.
- If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.
- As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1:

Well, propsfor explaining all that stuff (that's already more then clear to me), but let's think back to my first post then, and I'll quote something you've just said here: "To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he (Mr. Cleary) said is QUITE clear".So, after saying it yourself, you really think that Arenanet couldn't have done anything to prevent this ban-storm? We are not talking about programming and coding here, we are talking about a company who develops games for people who would like to play games, simple as that. The clientele doesn't consists of players who are also happen to be professional application developers. So with this in mind, do you really think it's fair the way Arenanet is acting now. I don't know about you, but let me give you an example of how this third-party software is being shared.

X: Hey, you've heard about the new DPS meter called "ARCDPS",you should download it, it's very good.Y: Well, I don't know, my account is very precious to me so I don't think we should download it, even when it will help me improve my skill.X: No man, it's no problem, let me send you a recent link about Arenanet's policy on this.

Sends link from forum with a statement about the ARCDPS version 2.0 (including complicated, vague crapz)

Y: So, they're alright with it then, nice!

Downloads ARCDPS 5.0

I understand what you're saying, but if you are working with people, you should know something about human behavior and demeanor. All I am saying is, that you should be clear and simple about stuff like this, especially when you want to take actions again your OWN clientele! So again and in other words: If Arenanet forestalled all the third-party software from the beginning, you wouldn't have to ban 1500 people. People took the third-party software crapz way too far, and Arenanet has a fair share in it themselves!

I'm sorry. Is human stupidity now an excuse to cheat? Ha! Excuse me... I'll be right back. I am going to go hit myself over the head with a frying pan until I've lost a few million brain cells and then go rob a bank. CLEARLY, this is a valid excuse.

Also, no one was banned for using ArcDPS. ArcDPS uses temporal data... full stop. It doesn't write to active memory, it doesn't write to standby memory/passive memory, and it doesn't read protected memory. So, remind me again, how would ArcDPS get you banned? I'd love to hear the explanation for how it would, as I have provided you a clear and concise reason it would NOT.

And this laughable joke that TacO is getting people banned is... absolutely HYSTERICAL.

This entire "But I only used XYZ program/addon/mod" is really chuckle worthy. I mean, cmon... Let's get real here.

ANET has zero fault in this. They cannot keep track of people making forks of approved 3rd party applications. They covered themselves by stating that they can't guarnatee operational stability of these apps, nor the integrity of these."

That's why, if people choose to use 3rd party addons/apps/mods, they need to be aware of what they're doing, how to do it; otherwise, don't do it. Ignorance is not an excuse.

And that's EXACTLY why they should've been clear about it! Because YES, people are stupid, and there is nothing we can do about it. And people taking the whole hand when given just one finger isn't something new these days isn't it? Again, I totally understand your pov, but In my humble opinion, this could've been prevented easily. =)

Pray tell... how?

By disallowing EVERY third-party program, instead of creating a situation in which the line between harmful and harmless is getting thinner and thinner. Specially with people around that just play games and have no knowledge about this staff. Only a really naive person would think that most people who download third-party software/tools are first going to read everything about it. Although, I guess Arenanet can be naive sometimes. :p

What thin line? See, again, this is a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of what is allowed. And this midunderstanding is simply a player ignoring the available ToS that pretty much lays it out. Reading is fundamental!

If the mod in question gives more data than is available to the player normally, it is NOT ALLOWED. ArcDPS is allowed... it essentially takes snapshots of the same data in the combat log, and organizes it quickly for the player to view. This is how temporal data functions.

TacO utilizes the Mumble API and uses static data to render 2D markers for known pathing, etc. It's an aid, just like watching a YouTube "how to" video, except turned into an overlay.

There is a VAST difference between what these two primary mods/addons do and speed hacking, teleporting, etc. If a player cannot realize that, they are beyond stupid... they're being wilfully ignorant or they're out to cheat. Either way, they don't deserve to play at that point.

There aren't legitimate excuses for this crap. End. Of. Story.

Unfortunately, humanity is stupid. I think you and I got totally different perspectives here. You look more deeper in the programs/tools itself (granted, which I don't know a lot about because I don't use any), while I am looking at this from a business perspective. And I don't know about you, but if this was my game, I would have made a totally different approach (with a lot of things btw). And you may not like this, but what I've stated is a fact; if Arenanet disallowed EVERY third-party program/tool, they wouldn't had to take action on such big scale (which is never good for your company). All because people are so stupid and didn't want to read? Yes, all simply because people are stupid and don't want to read. And of course they should ban people who've crossed the line! All I'm saying is, this could've been prevented. Banning players who hack in your game is healthy for the game sure, but please realize, when you need to ban over 1500 players, it WILL harm your company also. And we all don't wanna see this game perish over simple stuff like this now do we?

Edit: Oh and btw, if you ever played with or seen videos on how the tactical overlay works with for example; jumping puzzles, super adventure box and guild missions, you would understand what I mean by "a thin line". But you are probably gonna keep trying to feed your perspective as absolute truth. Good luck tho, just never startup a company or something (I say that for your own good).

Bloodstealer.5978 · April 13, 2018

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
@Pimpology.6234 said:
@RoseofGilead.8907 said:
@"Last Crysis.1934" said:

Taco doesn't even have a DPS meter, as far as I know. It's just an overlay to help out with achievements and similar things.

boom

advantage

right there

People are reading too much into the "no advantage" phrasing. Taken to that extreme, all sorts of things are advantageous: using a gaming mouse, two monitors, larger monitors, solid state drives, practicing rotations, being on comms with allies, etc.

There's nothing wrong with making the game easier to play. What ANet is concerned with is when people cross the line from "making things easier" to "letting software do stuff for you". Overlays are fine because you still have to execute the mechanics, jumps, etc. But a hack that makes you 0.1% faster isn't, because it does something that no one else could do without the hack.

Taco markers showing paths through things like sab trib mode is imo a cheat and provides a clear advantage but only anet can make that call.If using a radar hack are considered a cheat so should taco markers .. it uses mumble data after all in order to get positional data of you and map detail... both still require you to still perform action s to overcome mechanics but both give you advantageous insights

Nezekan.2671 · April 13, 2018

@Sojar.1495 said:
@"Nezekan.2671" said:I got suspended in middle of fractals and I'm only using arcdps, nothing more. This is unacceptable and horrendous practice, add to that the slow process of answering tickets, its too much.
I already submitted a ticket yesterday but we will probably not get an answer today, and I highly doubt the support staff even work during the weekends. So the earliest time we will get an answer is Monday, which again I doubt we will get an answer. I think the quickest time Anet staff answered a support ticket was 7 days. So its very possible no one will get an answer until 23rd.

Did you now? Just ArcDPS huh? Funny, not one SINGLE soul I know of in game, nor anyone in their guilds, got banned for REGULARLY using ArcDPS. Considering all the people and connections they have to 400-500 member guilds, I'd wager I'm connected to AT LEAST 20,000 players. Not a single one was banned for using ArcDPS.

Tell you what.... I'll make you a deal.

If I get banned in the coming weeks for only using TacO and ArcDPS, I will LITERALLY buy you a brand new Guild Wars 2 account including all expansions, I'll buy you $1000 in gems and I'll give you every single material on my account after my ban expires.

But, if I am not banned for using the "same program" as you, you have to come on the forums and admit your post is an outright lie.

I will GUARANTEE I will do what I've listed here. In fact, I'll even have @"Chris Cleary.8017" ban my account forever if I fail to uphold my deal (assuming I'm banned). That's how entirely confident I am in saying "liar liar, pants on fire."

I couldn't care less about the state of your account or anyone else's. Make your "deal" about my account.

You know my username, therefore add me as a friend. If I was banned with a false flag and get unbanned, which I should be, I expect you to hold this deal. When I come online, you know you have to pay up.

Steve The Cynic.3217 · April 13, 2018

This is a game from the Guild Wars family. Surely (ref: thread title) it should be a banscythe.

I did once see that happen to someone. I was standing in the GToB and someone in my field of vision (but behind another character) had been banned. Big huge figure swirled up, swing of scythe, swirled back down into the ground. Very impressive.

Sojar.1495 · April 13, 2018

@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in
this thread
.

As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?
Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?
- You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)
- You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.
- Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.
- If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.
- As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1: