Account suspension discussion [merged]

Sojar.1495 · April 13, 2018

@"Voltekka.2375" said:You know, arcdps CAN get you banned. If one uses it to kick people in fractals/raids saying "your dps sucks", and he/she people gets reported, it could get them banned. If memory serves, that is.Edit: i still cant understand why arcdps would show you another player' dps,instead of just your own. I mean, wasnt that feature expected to get abused? If it would only show your own dps, I would understand it that you try to get better.

ArcDPS utilizes temporal data (essentially data gathered using snap shots in time) to estimate DPS based off known values that are built into Guild Wars 2. This is why can be severely inaccurate during certain fights, and is just a rough estimate of DPS, overall for other players in the party. The DPS it gives as you "personal DPS" is more accurate, but nothing was able to beat out BGDM in regards to accuracy. Unfortunately, Bagawan expanded the feature set of BGDM far too much, and continued to ask Mr. Cleary for clarification about data that was identical, so far as access into memory from the client data, that normally would be masked and unavailable for a player. BGDM required all players utilizing it to be running it to show their DPS, since it was essentially an independent server linked personal DPS meter that could share each individual's DPS with any other player utilizing the mod. That's why it was approved, despite being in a somewhat gray area (which was made quite clear by Mr. Cleary, on several occassion).

As to your first point: That's essentially harassment, which is an entirely different issue from cheating. That would be up to a human being to decide if the player who was harassing another over their DPS, or griefing them, would warrant a flag followed by a review for a warning or a suspension of varying time based on the account's in-game standing with support (strike system).

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

Shining One.1635 · April 13, 2018

I see a few players who gear-checked (and often kicked) me in T4 Fractals proclaiming their innocence and saying: "I only use TacO and ArcDPS." From my understanding, neither of those tools provide gear-checks. Can someone confirm? I don't use either of them.

Voltekka.2375 · April 13, 2018

@Sojar.1495 said:
@"Voltekka.2375" said:You know, arcdps CAN get you banned. If one uses it to kick people in fractals/raids saying "your dps sucks", and he/she people gets reported, it could get them banned. If memory serves, that is.Edit: i still cant understand why arcdps would show you another player' dps,instead of just your own. I mean, wasnt that feature expected to get abused? If it would only show your own dps, I would understand it that you try to get better.

ArcDPS utilizes temporal data (essentially data gathered using snap shots in time) to estimate DPS based off known values that are built into Guild Wars 2. This is why can be severely inaccurate during certain fights, and is just a rough estimate of DPS, overall for other players in the party. The DPS it gives as you "personal DPS" is more accurate, but nothing was able to beat out BGDM in regards to accuracy. Unfortunately, Bagawan expanded the feature set of BGDM far too much, and continued to ask Mr. Cleary for clarification about data that was identical, so far as access into memory from the client data, that normally would be masked and unavailable for a player. BGDM required all players utilizing it to be running it to show their DPS, since it was essentially an independent server linked personal DPS meter that could share each individual's DPS with any other player utilizing the mod. That's why it was approved, despite being in a somewhat gray area (which was made quite clear by Mr. Cleary, on several occassion).

As to your first point: That's essentially harassment, which is an entirely different issue from cheating. That would be up to a human being to decide if the player who was harassing another over their DPS, or griefing them, would warrant a flag followed by a review for a warning or a suspension of varying time based on the account's in-game standing with support (strike system).

Hope that clarifies it a bit.

It does clarify things a lot. Thank you very much!

mindcircus.1506 · April 13, 2018

@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in this thread.

Now all you need to do is revoke the forum posting privileges for the affected accounts so they can stop posting their "I was only using TACO and Yolomouse" lies and we can all move on happily.

Menadena.7482 · April 13, 2018

@usnedward.9023 said:I am not here to complain. I am in no way sorry that it happened to me or anyone else. I run Zero addons so I know the particular hack I used affected many others. It's the chance I took.

Uggh, sorry you got burned. Since you run zero addons does that mean vanilla arc and/or taco can cause the problem?

GrubySzymek.1362 · April 13, 2018

@Menadena.7482 said:
@usnedward.9023 said:I am not here to complain. I am in no way sorry that it happened to me or anyone else. I run Zero addons so I know the particular hack I used affected many others. It's the chance I took.

Uggh, sorry you got burned. Since you run zero addons does that mean vanilla arc and/or taco can cause the problem?

Zero is the name of the hack he used in this context.

FOX.3582 · April 13, 2018

@Sojar.1495 said:In the same way that a person who steals from the bank as a bank employee is just being stupid, right? In the same way that a drunk driver was just being stupid after killing someone with their car, right? In the same way that someone is just being stupid when they hit their significant other in a blind rage, right? Sorry, all of those are crimes, and stupidity and/or ignorance aside, they are STILL CRIMES and they will still be prosecuted for theft, manslaughter and assault/battery, respectively. Being ignorant or stupid is not a legitimate excuse for committing an offense. #sorrynotsorry #excusesexcuses

Ah there you have a nice example, thank you! Well now, how long ago did they changed the law about robbing a bank? How long ago was it still acceptable to drink and drive? When is the last time we deemed it necessary to talk about the laws concerning violence? Right! And THAT'S were Anet is wrong in my opinion. Again, people are stupid, so you need to be perfectly clear about your rules and conducts. If you won't, then crapz is bound to happen. Hey man, I'm all with you on banning people, specially for using hacks and stuff. But if this was my game, and stuff got outta hand so bad that I needed to ban more then FIFTEEN HUNDRED people, I would also pitch some self-criticism.

Sojar.1495 · April 13, 2018

@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@Ashen.2907 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in
this thread
.

As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?
Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?
- You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)
- You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.
- Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.
- If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.
- As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1:

Well, propsfor explaining all that stuff (that's already more then clear to me), but let's think back to my first post then, and I'll quote something you've just said here: "To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he (Mr. Cleary) said is QUITE clear".So, after saying it yourself, you really think that Arenanet couldn't have done anything to prevent this ban-storm? We are not talking about programming and coding here, we are talking about a company who develops games for people who would like to play games, simple as that. The clientele doesn't consists of players who are also happen to be professional application developers. So with this in mind, do you really think it's fair the way Arenanet is acting now. I don't know about you, but let me give you an example of how this third-party software is being shared.

X: Hey, you've heard about the new DPS meter called "ARCDPS",you should download it, it's very good.Y: Well, I don't know, my account is very precious to me so I don't think we should download it, even when it will help me improve my skill.X: No man, it's no problem, let me send you a recent link about Arenanet's policy on this.

Sends link from forum with a statement about the ARCDPS version 2.0 (including complicated, vague crapz)

Y: So, they're alright with it then, nice!

Downloads ARCDPS 5.0

I understand what you're saying, but if you are working with people, you should know something about human behavior and demeanor. All I am saying is, that you should be clear and simple about stuff like this, especially when you want to take actions again your OWN clientele! So again and in other words: If Arenanet forestalled all the third-party software from the beginning, you wouldn't have to ban 1500 people. People took the third-party software crapz way too far, and Arenanet has a fair share in it themselves!

I'm sorry. Is human stupidity now an excuse to cheat? Ha! Excuse me... I'll be right back. I am going to go hit myself over the head with a frying pan until I've lost a few million brain cells and then go rob a bank. CLEARLY, this is a valid excuse.

Also, no one was banned for using ArcDPS. ArcDPS uses temporal data... full stop. It doesn't write to active memory, it doesn't write to standby memory/passive memory, and it doesn't read protected memory. So, remind me again, how would ArcDPS get you banned? I'd love to hear the explanation for how it would, as I have provided you a clear and concise reason it would NOT.

And this laughable joke that TacO is getting people banned is... absolutely HYSTERICAL.

This entire "But I only used XYZ program/addon/mod" is really chuckle worthy. I mean, cmon... Let's get real here.

ANET has zero fault in this. They cannot keep track of people making forks of approved 3rd party applications. They covered themselves by stating that they can't guarnatee operational stability of these apps, nor the integrity of these."

That's why, if people choose to use 3rd party addons/apps/mods, they need to be aware of what they're doing, how to do it; otherwise, don't do it. Ignorance is not an excuse.

And that's EXACTLY why they should've been clear about it! Because YES, people are stupid, and there is nothing we can do about it. And people taking the whole hand when given just one finger isn't something new these days isn't it? Again, I totally understand your pov, but In my humble opinion, this could've been prevented easily. =)

I agree, to a certain extent, with this.

Half of all people are of below average intelligence. If you, as a business, plan on having stupid people as (part of) your customer base, you should be prepared to need to be particularly clear and simple in explaining your policies, etc.

Oh sorry. I guess ANET doesn't have this in the User Agreement, right?

PROHIBITED AND IRREPARABLY HARMFUL ACTIVITIES CONCERNING ArenaNet© Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game;(i) Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to:(i) software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;(ii) software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;(iii) software that redirects communications from any Game or Service; or(iv) software not provided by ArenaNet which creates or maintains any communication to the Game or Service, including but not limited to any software that emulatesthe Game or any part thereof as well as any server that emulates the Service or any part thereof;

HMMMM. Those seem to be reallllllly vague. Oh, wait... they really aren't . Words have meanings. Learn what those are... and chances are, you won't have too many issues.

You don't understand a word from what I've all explained do you? Well, you're right yo, Arenanet is and always was totally clear about the third-party software. They only needed to give one clear statement and never made or answered any other posts about it, that's it...Wow, you are dense...

Any and all clarification that was needed was done by @"Chris Cleary.8017" , with an extended offer to mainline developers to seek him out if they had any further questions and for assistance in maintaining compliance. NUMEROUS posts can be found about this on these official forums as well as Reddit. I've already cited multiple instances of said quotes; I'll leave you to find the remaining dozens upon dozens of them.

Sorry, the "ignorance is bliss" argument falls short, especially when the bans were issued for HEINOUS cheating.

And here we go again with the ad hominem attacks... Sigh... absurd and rude. As stated before... Knock it off.

That's exactly the problem! There has been WAY TOO MUCH discussion about this. You really don't see how they made it worse by all those posts and topics (on three different websites!)? Common man! (Or woman)

They made it worse by assisting the community with things the community wanted and doing so for no payment? They made it worse by offering to clarify things that might have appeared to be "vague," to ensure these community projects were in compliance with the UA/ToS? How is wanting to help, and doing so, making it worse? The advice was given, and then it was either willfully ignored or was paid heed and then someone else, who fancied it okay, broke the rules knowingly. Sorry, again.... not ANET's fault, that's the player's fault for doing the dirty deed. And the players that KNEW the power of these malicious cheating mods/addons decided that the risk was worth it, and went ahead and used it; they got burned, and now they're made they go burned. Again... this isn't an ANET issue so much as it is players being foolish and thinking there are no consequences for their actions.

What other online, multiplayer games permit teleporting, speed hacking or no-clip to gain a MASSIVE unfair advantage over other players? Feel free to list them...

Newsflash: You cheat, eventually, you get caught... and you get PUNISHED. They should just count their lucky stars that ANET only banned them for 6 months! If I was in charge, they would be MAC, IP and hardware ID permanent banned. Absolutely foolish, selfish and reprehenisble behavior from "fellow community members," in doing what they've done and have been getting away with for far too long.

If ANET is guilty of one thing, it was in how long it took to do this. I am sure there were logistical reasons behind it... but if that's the one thing that ANET is guilty of, I'd rather they implemented the detection for these scum correctly, rather than left more of them slip through the cracks of banning much larger swaths of the GW2 community for actually using "approved" addons/mods. ANET took care of this issue quite well, and if you think differently, you aren't seeing the bigger and much worse picture starring you squarely in the face.

Strider Pj.2193 · April 13, 2018

@Menadena.7482 said:
@usnedward.9023 said:I am not here to complain. I am in no way sorry that it happened to me or anyone else. I run Zero addons so I know the particular hack I used affected many others. It's the chance I took.

Uggh, sorry you got burned. Since you run zero addons does that mean vanilla arc and/or taco can cause the problem?

In the post you quoted he noted he used a 'particular hack'. He won't post it here as that is also against the ToS

Twoodi.5849 · April 13, 2018

@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@Ashen.2907 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@Sojar.1495 said:
@FOX.3582 said:
@"Gaile Gray.6029" said:You'll find information about a series of account suspensions in
this thread
.

As someone who isn't suspended and doesn't use cheats or other stuff I will say this and I've said it before:Your company has the worst failure of a business management I've ever encountered in my life! You will see that if you take a look on how you manage your micro-transactions, the wishes of your player-base and now this. For years and years you have this shady, blear and unclear statement about third-party software. Players made dozens of topics on this subject and never have they had a clear and distinct answer. And all of a sudden, you suspend your customers?! You have lead them into this and you don't even recognize your own share in it. I know people used third party software into their own advantage, we all understand that. But if you guys were clear about it at the very beginning, you would never have to suspend over 1500 accounts. What a pitiful mess you guys create...

Oh I'm sorry. Were these not CLEAR enough for you?

Chris Cleary : "If someone wanted to put in the time to actually build real bossmods, that might be something that we could approve if they wanted to work with me."Chris Cleary: "I've gone ahead and taken a look at this (source code and traffic). In its current iteration, I see nothing here that violates the proper API usage policy. However users should be careful with the usage of the Web Browser, as both the storage of cache and cookie information is not secure and persists through sessions. Unlike most standard browsers, Awesomium (the browser that is being used), does not have more than basic protection against browser based web vulnerabilities. As with any 3rd party program, use at your own risk. ArenaNet cannot sign off usage of 3rd party programs, as projects often evolve beyond their current implementation and we cannot audit every iteration for fair usage. All that being said, some solid work here. Tip: You might want to consider throtttling down your match_details API call (1/5s would be sufficient rather than 2/1s)"Chris Cleary: " We have no problems with players using a 3rd party tool whose scope is only to collect and visualize combat data gathered directly from the game client. Anything beyond that scope is still considered a violation of the User Agreement."Chris Cleary: "I haven't seen anything that TACO is doing that would violate the rules set forward with the fair usage of the mumble API"Chris Cleary: "We will give our community plenty of time to make this adjustment before considering any action directly against tools or players that use them. Edit: Tool creators, if you are unsure if a feature you have created or want to create is in violation of these guidelines, you can contact me directly."Chris Cleary: "About 2-3 months ago I asked /u/deltaconnected to take down his previously created Build Templates addon to ArcDPS. At the time it was in violation of our rules to distribute it and it had key issues with it when it came to functionality and interaction with the game client. This release is the result of a multi-month coordination to get his Build Templates addon into a place where I can green-light it for release. Unlike DPS meters, Build Templates is a much more passive user interface addon and thus it could be individually allowed to release outside of the DPS meter Terms of Service rules restriction. If future developers are interested in working with me to create addons, please reach out to me and we can chat. I'm green-lighting this due to the developer's trustworthiness after months of interaction and willingness to add key restrictions and functionality changes to accommodate my push to keep addons away from becoming a "must have to win" situation (WvW restrictions were not outlined in his post, but they are there along with others). In their current state, /u/DeltaConnected 's Build templates are green-lit and safe to use by users (in terms of violating the Terms of Service). I've asked him to run any functionality changes by me before releasing, so hopefully we don't need to worry about things changing in the future in terms of "safe to use". This is officially unsupported, and ArenaNet will not be able to offer any support for this addon or issues that occur due to use of this addon."

I guess the HUNDREDS of Reddit and forum posts from Mr. Cleary weren't CLEAR enough (the irony of his last name and this subject is not lost on me either, lol).

Excuses, excuses. This thread is full of them. You. Got. What. You. Deserved.

Again, I am not banned. And if you find those statements clear and distinct, you are quite dense. But since you already had trouble to read my first sentence, I think it's a giant waste of time to point out and explain the enormous amount of contradictions that are written within those posts. All I see is a disgruntled player who doesn't like people to use stuff like dps-meters just because it has affected his/her ability to leech from pro/veteran people who needed to carry you through content because they DID use stuff to improve their skill. You should work at Arenanet, they need people like you there. =)

Allow me to reply, in kind, good sir!

I'm sorry you lack fundamental understanding of basic computer science, and thus fail to grasp what Mr. Cleary was articulating. To anyone with more than layman's understanding or a passing fancy of programming, what he said is QUITE clear. You lack of understanding gives me pause to grant you ANY credibility, or to post a meaningful reply to your ad hominem attack on me, but then again... here we are, aren't we?
Again, with the ad hominem attacks.... Let's address them, just for the sake of the fact that, at this point, it's all you've got to defend yourself from QUOTES from the developer of the game in question and from someone with a fair amount of knowledge of computer science, shall we?
- You suggest I'm against DPS meters - I never stated this. Quite the contrary... I am fully in favor of them, provided they comply with the rules set forth by ANET. Mr. Cleary has offered to work with a developer, should they be in a gray area (and those gray areas are actually few and far between when you get down the heart of it)
- You suggest that I am a leech, without having ever encountered me in the game, knowing nothing about my account, etc. This is rude, first off, and more importantly, is completely uncessary to the discussion at hand.
- Moreover, you somehow suggest that I am leeching off pro/veteran players to facilitate my experience in playing Guild Wars 2. Well, considering I covered part of this in my latter retort with regards to you accusation of me being a "leech", let me just add that you are quite incorrect. That's all I am going to give you with regards to obliging such a baseless, childish statement with a reply. Knock it off.
- If by "use stuff to improve their skill" you mean "Hack the game utilizing game breaking functionality like teleportion, speed increases and no-clip," then I would fault you on the former bit of logic there that said people "carr[ied] [me]" through the game, as I would NEVER allow a player utilizing these tools to do ANYTHING for me, as it is reprehensible behavior that is deserving of nothing short of permanent account termination, let alone the paultry 6 month ban ANET has issued to these deviants.
- As for your comment about working for ArenaNet - while that's a flattering suggesting, I'm quite happy in my current career; however, I do appreciate the sentiment. :+1: