Hearts with the addition of Quests

[Neeman Oria.7504]

Do you think Guild Wars should leave behind the old ideology of "no quests," why or why not?

I created a Poll: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38602/hearts-and-quests-in-the-new-expansion-pack/p1?new=1

[Pifil.5193]

Gw2 already has quests. The side stories are essentially quests. The story journal is basically a series of quests. A lot of the achievements and collections added in the last few years are also ways of tracking quests.

[Ayrilana.1396]

Events also behave like quests.

[Pifil.5193]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Events also behave like quests.

Very true and of course the renown hearts are also basically quests.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

@Pifil.5193 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Events also behave like quests.

Very true and of course the renown hearts are also basically quests.

...and, coincidentally, were added because people found they lacked direction at the very start of public access. They asked for traditional quests, and got hearts instead.

Oh, wait, that completely wasn't a coincidence at all...

OP: in what way would quests differ from hearts?

[MithranArkanere.8957]

It's not that GW2 doesn't have Quests. It just doesn't have a quest log for them.

Sometimes it uses Achievements to track them, but that doesn't work for character-based ones like reforging Caladbolg.

The Story journal should have a 'Side Stories' section to put all the extra story stuff that isn't a story mission and isn't account-wide.

[DeanBB.4268]

Isn't this question six or seven years too late?

[Samnang.1879]

no. quests are stupid. hearts are bad enough as it is... espeically the repeating system... they're too easy. if ure gonna make quests u need to dedicate a story attached to it... that's what real quests should be... not just kill __ amount of enemies. that's boring .thats why i like the LS episodes even tho its 1 per 3months...

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"Neeman Oria.7504" said:Do you think Guild Wars should leave behind the old ideology of "no quests," why or why not?

I don't mind hearts, but quests seem like just a more annoying version of hearts. Instead of getting credit passively, you have to return to some other location to turn in the "quest".

In my opinion, HoT nailed it in terms of event structure. Chain events localized to a particular section of the map with markers indicating event chain progress. Once the chain is done, it reverts to core Tyria-style one-off events (veteran mini boss spawns, etc.). And then you have the big meta events on a timer, so you can just use LFG and show up for those when the time comes if that's what you want to do. I feel like it offers the best of everything for everyone...difficulty/navigation issues aside.

[Pifil.5193]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:It's not that GW2 doesn't have Quests. It just doesn't have a quest log for them.

Sometimes it uses Achievements to track them, but that doesn't work for character-based ones like reforging Caladbolg.

The Story journal should have a 'Side Stories' section to put all the extra story stuff that isn't a story mission and isn't account-wide.

That's definitely true, the Knight of the Thorn/Reforging Caladbolg story should have been added to the story journal perhaps as a prologue to HoT or between HoT and Season 3.

[Cyprien.4208]

I find it extremely hard to play mmo that have the old school quest system where you accept do the quest then return since guild wars 2. It’s not to say they shouldn’t be around some games do them correctly like elder scrolls while others like final fantasy does them poorly with no voice unless it’s a key main quest.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

@Cyprien.4208 said:I find it extremely hard to play mmo that have the old school quest system where you accept do the quest then return since guild wars 2.

Agreed.

[mercury ranique.2170]

why do people fixate so much on labels. Hearts or not quests. They are different things. There is other content in the game that is much more simular to tradition quests in other mmo's.

Hearts are fine as they are. Just ditch the repeatable crap.

[Neeman Oria.7504]

@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

@Pifil.5193 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Events also behave like quests.

Very true and of course the renown hearts are also basically quests.

...and, coincidentally, were added because people found they lacked direction at the very start of public access. They asked for traditional quests, and got hearts instead.

Oh, wait, that completely wasn't a coincidence at all...

OP: in what way would quests differ from hearts?

In Runescape, Quests were going to a new land, with some humor involved, maybe taking down a local villian. A "Quest" would be taking down Palawadan, and having the experience change for that account. Feeling a change in the world without it actually changing instead of a repeatable event where nothing changes and no progress is made.

EDIT: I think their idea for a "Living World" would have been basically better than what I'm suggesting. But the model just didn't fit. I'm not talking WoW quests, "Kill 10 enemies then return to me," I'm talking Runescape quests, "Bring me a sword. What? I have your sword, but bring me a chalice. What? I have a chalice, but bring me a moot root. Etc."

[Neeman Oria.7504]

@Pifil.5193 said:Gw2 already has quests. The side stories are essentially quests. The story journal is basically a series of quests. A lot of the achievements and collections added in the last few years are also ways of tracking quests.

Side stories ARE essentially quests. Do you think there should be more of them? Or do you think there should be a better way of tracking them, possibly grouping them into a catagory? Instead of a collection for Nevermore, you could go on a QUEST for Nevermore.

[Neeman Oria.7504]

@DeanBB.4268 said:Isn't this question six or seven years too late?

Perhaps. But the New Player Experience lacks re-playability. Mapping is atrocious!

[draconicrose.6213]

I just want a quest log for things like the griffon quest, or reforging Caladbolg, even parts of the current events that are like a mini story.

[RoseofGilead.8907]

Hearts are already quests. Most events are also already quests. Side stories are also already quests. The open world portions of Living World chapters, and expansions and Personal Story, are also already quests. So, no, I don't think we need more quests.

[MakubeC.3026]

I actually made this poll in Reddit a few days back.As you can see, most people (by a small margin) would like to see quests make their way into Gw2.The thing is that we already have quests. They're just poorly represented inside the achievements window. Anet has made a point, I guess, of not making traditional quests in the sense of going to talk to an NPC. But I think at this point, they're just hurting the game. The Griffon quest, the one for Koda's Flames, Karka Exterminator, the new 32 bag slots chivs... all these and future ones could benefit of quests, a proper UI and a map marker to better help players discover and participate in them. Something like Green Hearts or whatever. Sometimes I feel that if I didn't read Reddit I would miss out on a good chunk of the game.

[DeanBB.4268]

@"Neeman Oria.7504" said:... the New Player Experience lacks re-playability. Mapping is atrocious!

The NPE lacks re-playability? NPE is a game system, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. The little green arrows that are supposed to point you where you need to go? Flashing nearby POI/etc? Or are you referring to leveling up and the personal story?

What do you mean, "Mapping is atrocious?" You go somewhere you haven't been, it is revealed. What mapping?

And how would quests help with any of this?

[Neeman Oria.7504]

@DeanBB.4268 said:

@"Neeman Oria.7504" said:... the New Player Experience lacks re-playability. Mapping is atrocious!

The NPE lacks re-playability? NPE is a game system, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. The little green arrows that are supposed to point you where you need to go? Flashing nearby POI/etc? Or are you referring to leveling up and the personal story?

What do you mean, "Mapping is atrocious?" You go somewhere you haven't been, it is revealed. What mapping?

And how would quests help with any of this?

I see now that my attitude going in, not so great. Devs constantly get suggestions, and that can be hard because the creators have their own visions for the game. The playerbase should have a vision for the game, but with so many people it can be overwhelming if you listen to every suggestion, every criticism. Making a game isn't easy, and a good game requires a whole team, and shitting on the game is shitting on the team. I never meant to come off that way.

A better way to phrase what I was originally intending with my forum post was, mapping (PoI, Hearts, Vistas) after you have completed it once, isn't very entertaining. It is oft a slog, a grueling challenge to see if you have what it takes to make the legendary that you want. Whether that is for the gold or for the looks, it is mostly a side project. The story, after you have killed Zhaitan (spoilers), and the living world is linear. The world itself is frozen in time, and without side quests, side stories (mentioned above there actually are side stories, only found in collections/achievement panel), and other interesting stories in the world, the game becomes a quick rise to power in the PC's point of view.

Example: The Human Personal Story beginning.

Rushing out of Divinity's Reach the chaos of invading centaurs are overwhelming the Seraph. You emerge, jumping right into battle knowing little of combat, or fighting skills. Alone (but oftentimes not), you take back the garrison, and fight alongside Logan Thackery (the Queen's personal champion) to take back Shaemoor.

From then on you work with Logan, and the Seraph to cull bandits, defend DR, and take care of other threats inside the city until you choose an order to join.

This tells little about the world we play in. Hearts are fun. They're unique. Often I don't find myself reading what the NPC wants me to do and just deduce what to do to get the heart over with as quickly as possible. I did the same thing with Nevermore. But the Nevermore collection basically forced me to raise a raven, capture spirits, and then combine the two to create the staff. To make a good quest it takes a long time, hours upon hours of writing. And Anet basically said, we're not making anymore legendary journeys for HoT weapons because ends weren't worth the means. So they made the newest legendaries, craft able only. To insert quests into the world would take manpower, knowledge of lore, and a sense of humor. It's too much work to create Core content for newbies and Vets alike when the name of the game is $$$. I had to come back to correct my original stance, needless to say I am excited for new content in LWS4, and the next expansion pack.

[sasya neko.1985]

a heart is just a task in an area, repeatable or not they get old really fast.DE's are nothing like quests, they just happen but only locally.

quests enrich the lore of a game, they can get you beyond the boarders of a local event and send you on an adventure outside the main story.the LS is the main story, i want something beside that.i want something like a task that eventually brings me to places i would never get to in the main story, know history and other lore about stuff i would otherwise never know about inside the game.

i really don't like to point out a different game, it would put me in a position where i need to point out the specifics while letting ppl know i am not talking about the whole.however, i have to look at WoW, not the quests them self but what quests do for lore and the game.in WoW quests adds life in the world, it enriches the area and even makes you remember both lore and way of life in that area.while one area shows 2 farm families that are not quite friendly with each other while 2 ppl of each farm love each other, in the other you find out a tribe threatens to invade the small village a guard is guarding.you can't tell that story with a heart, hearts would just make things way to global and doesn't specifically help the guy.DE's are more made to make situations that just happens, hardly anything that can do what quests can do.

with DE's it doesn't do that justice and hearts are quite the dead weight, quests only improves the story of each place individually.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

@"sorudo.9054" said:

quests enrich the lore of a game, they can get you beyond the boarders of a local event and send you on an adventure outside the main story.the LS is the main story, i want something beside that.

i really don't like to point out a different game, it would put me in a position where i need to point out the specifics while letting ppl know i am not talking about the whole.

It is very reasonable to point to an example of what you are looking for.

however, i have to look at WoW, not the quests them self but what quests do for lore and the game.in WoW quests adds life in the world, it enriches the area and even makes you remember both lore and way of life in that area.while one area shows 2 farm families that are not quite friendly with each other while 2 ppl of each farm love each other, in the other you find out a tribe threatens to invade the small village a guard is guarding.you can't tell that story with a heart, hearts would just make things way to global and doesn't specifically help the guy.

The first is an Elwyn Woods (Alliance human start area) quest chain; it is small scale, and the individual quests are heart-like in the sense that you need to fetch some items and return them, etc. The overall chain is more like a mini meta-event ALA VB or AB, in which your fetch quests feed into completing a stage, and all the stages lead to the culmination of the events of the micro-story. (No spoilers, in case anyone hasn't played it.)

WoW has essentially no quests that reach beyond the current zone, so they are identical to things. The Fire Elemental in Metrica, or the Worm world boss in the Sylvari starter zone are the most directly comparable thing - though the WoW quests referenced do not culminate in a boss, or any especially rewarding outcome in general.

DE's are more made to make situations that just happens, hardly anything that can do what quests can do.

There is no essential difference between dynamic events, and the quest chains you point out, at a "technical" level. There are many dynamic event chains in GW2 that behave exactly like the cited WoW quest chains. There are no particularly significant differences between static heart activities and the dynamic event activities in GW2.

The only difference is how they are used by the developers, and I'd certainly say that my view is that GW2 has more chains than WoW did, and uses them more effectively. (I say this having gotten 2x each class to cap in WoW, to have access to all specs, as well as doing the same in GW2.)

[starlinvf.1358]

@Cyprien.4208 said:I find it extremely hard to play mmo that have the old school quest system where you accept do the quest then return since guild wars 2. It’s not to say they shouldn’t be around some games do them correctly like elder scrolls while others like final fantasy does them poorly with no voice unless it’s a key main quest.

@mercury ranique.2170 said:why do people fixate so much on labels. Hearts or not quests. They are different things. There is other content in the game that is much more simular to tradition quests in other mmo's.

Hearts are fine as they are. Just ditch the repeatable crap.

@"MakubeC.3026" said:I actually made this poll in Reddit a few days back.As you can see, most people (by a small margin) would like to see quests make their way into Gw2.The thing is that we already have quests. They're just poorly represented inside the achievements window. Anet has made a point, I guess, of not making traditional quests in the sense of going to talk to an NPC. But I think at this point, they're just hurting the game. The Griffon quest, the one for Koda's Flames, Karka Exterminator, the new 32 bag slots chivs... all these and future ones could benefit of quests, a proper UI and a map marker to better help players discover and participate in them. Something like Green Hearts or whatever. Sometimes I feel that if I didn't read Reddit I would miss out on a good chunk of the game.

To address all of these at the same time..... the underlying problem is the architecture and usage of quests in older RPGs verses how video games use them. The video game use grew out of need for a logical structure that a computer can easily process and keep track of...... more flags then anything else. However, if you look at how P&P RPGs used them, quests were multi-session spanning ordeals, dotted with minor distractions in order to modulate the game's pacing. In more modern terms, the difference was main quest vs side quests; with the main quest having all the important story elements or necessary items, while the side quests were "opportunities" for the players to do something different just to keep thing interesting.

I deliberately use the word "opportunities", because that is actually a good description of the type of hero the player is when traveling the open world. During character intros for GW2, the monologue expressly states a desire to combat the problems perceived from your station in life , and you are quite literally taking your first venture into the world at large, to make some kind of difference in the local community. You don't start out with a "save the world" destiny, nor immediately embark on a heroes journey.... though it feels like that due to the breakneck pace that the story unfolds. From the character's point of view, the world is too big to save when they start; and that its the player who presumes they become the one destined to save all from the onset. If you think about for a while, this explains the entirety of the personal story arc, the reason Trahearne is made pact leader, why you are made the subordinate, and why a lot of people hated him for that.

I forget who originally pointed this out; but your character is written as an Adventurer who becomes a First responder to some kind of crisis. A person who travels the land, and solve problems where they find them. Thats the basis of how the Events are designed, and thats a key element to understanding the format Anet wanted to use for build this game. The heart quests were an after thought, and designed to function the same as static side quests to keep you busy enough for events to spawns. The only critical difference in this design, as opposed to ! Quest NPCs, is that everything is co-located in GW2 to create environmental story telling, giving you very clear clues as to the problem needing to be solved. Compare that to any of the standard quests in WoW, where you are sent to a location, and the only justification given is the word of an NPC and the offering of a reward. See how instead of a hero, you're just an errand boy who can maybe call yourself a Mercenary. Everquest (from whats been explained to me by older players) designed their quests with actual stories built into them..... often creating a chain with a coherent narrative.

Heart quests might be compartmentalized, but they are coherent to their environment. The side stories and collections offer the overarching narrative normally used for Story quests, but can be done at your own pace. The only thing the latter might be missing is a "conventional UI" element; as it does take some deduction to understand what to do next...... however, I find that to be a much needed improvement, as there are enough problems with this game (and most sandbox games) taking an overly passive approach to player engagement. Mark Brown did a nice essay piece about how modern games treat the player when it comes to world navigation, and the unintentional conditioning its created in our expectations of questing systems.

On the one hand, it makes getting lost almost impossible..... but at the same time, it takes away the motivation to explore the environment and get side tracked in the process. For a game like Guildwars 2, especially in core Tyria, where the maps are explicitly designed to be gone over with a fine tooth comb, just giving you a general direction and having you find your own way there, is a major element to stumbling on the various tidbits and distractions the level designers have built into the environment. This is less true in the Expansions, because travel is oddly now more of a chore- but at least the act of traveling is a more engaging, active experience.

[Neeman Oria.7504]

@starlinvf.1358

Much like the griffin easter egg. There were a set of clues that you needed to follow to obtain a collection, that you then needed to scour the world for roosts to bring eggs back to the sanctuary. That was an enriching video, and ArenaNet said they had a lot of fun watching people try to complete the griffin easter egg. So I expect more of that in the future. Perhaps my idea was one spliced of all the current story, collection, and easter egg content with the unfitting name 'Quest' on it's banner. What's needed is a real adventure.