"GW2 has no healers" .... I wish they did :(

[LegohBrave.1823]

I'm going to cherish my screenshot of hitting 24.6k heals per second timed to 58 seconds for some stupid total of 1.3+ million heals. Not shabby for a "no heal classes meta" for 1 minute of healing. I think they need to give love to a few of the old elite specs or just keep nerfing the new ones for wvw. "Meta" is as stupid a word as "Fomo".

[ugrakarma.9416]

@Ubi.4136 said:

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:

Trinity games just force styles of play on people. Any other optimization in role-less games is the result of player mentality of speeding through content and nothing more.

Log in to wvw. The "no trinity" system we have now is

forcing

people to play 60-70% scourge, 10-20% firebrand and a few others for certain abillities if they want ANY chance at winning. There is no reason to play if you have 0% chance to win regardless of skill, and that is what we have. If you don't field the "forced meta" you stand no chance at winning.

I always alerted it to anyone who falls in the scam of "no roles, no trinitys, everyone can be anything will be fun".When there are no roles, everyone migrates to the most efficiently at certain niche, since every class can be everything.

Which is the best to promote candi-cancer blob: Scourge. whic is the best spam support? firebrand. Not to mention that the balance fixes is super easy, in the games with more specific roles.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@"Kathul.1280" said:Warrior as a healer ? Was not aware of this. Would like to know more.

banners heals+shouts. im not sure, but i guess warhorn has group heal too.

[Uthrax.4975]

Plenty of healing/avoidance/negate skills in this game, my fav being reflect Healing isn't just about throwing big green numbers up.

[Blue.7256]

Last time I joined our servers community raid for 50 ppl in it, 28 were necros... Balanced.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@Blue.7256 said:Last time I joined our servers community raid for 50 ppl in it, 28 were necros... Balanced.

lolWhat about the other 22?10 healing firebrands, 5 spellbreakers and the remaining 7 < who cares : D

[ZNICK.8537]

@"STIHL.2489" said:There only two reasons why anyone wants a Healer in a game.

• They play DPS and want someone to babysit them and feel the need to have others enable their fun, as opposed to dealing to with taking care of themselves.

...healers hate these kinds of players, and they are the main reason why so few players play healers.

• They want a Class that is a shoe in for Raids and the like, without needing to prove their skill or ability to do the content, and Heal-bot roles are often the Go-To class for this kind of player as often they don't need to deal with any of the mechanics of encounter and just watch life bars.

...and this is one of the largest reasons why players play healers.

Well.. as it were.. Anet tried to do this for you, because some small vocal demographic cried and cried and cried that this game needs roles and role based content, but they kinda messed it up, and while Druid is a healer type support role, it is not a Heal-Bot, because Anet built this game from the start so that players could take care of themselves, so they could not lobotomize all their core work to make this game into some other game.

But they did a pretty good job of trying and in effect messing things up pretty good... so there is that I guess.

What about - "we want a healer in the game because we LIKE playing one"?Z

[Aeolus.3615]

@Mil.3562 said:

@Blue.7256 said:Last time I joined our servers community raid for 50 ppl in it, 28 were necros... Balanced.

lolWhat about the other 22?10 healing firebrands, 5 spellbreakers and the remaining 7 < who cares : D

Balanced for Anet and a good dessign for the casuals cause, since pressing butons w/o actually know what ur hitting since every is aoe spamming mindlessness(w/o actually know whom needs to get hitted first and why )at a order of a tag, also loooks pro for gw2 player...

That's why gw2 isnt a skilled mmo.

[FASTCAR.7831]

I disliked everthing about GW1 ( as I played REAL MMOs) except the 2 class system. Wonder why GW2 doesnt have it.Insert class here+ healer or ele would be fun )

[Optimator.3589]

@FASTCAR.7831 said:I disliked everthing about GW1 ( as I played REAL MMOs) except the 2 class system. Wonder why GW2 doesnt have it.Insert class here+ healer or ele would be fun )

Did you by chance play City of Heroes/Villains? The powerset mixing in that game was friggin awesome. And going from the mobility of that game to not even being able to jump was what kept me from really getting into GW1 back then.

[Straegen.9534]

Said someone that has never fought small scale with an elementalist healer in the mix. The trinity is alive in GW2 but most people don't coordinate well enough to make it work efficiently in WvW. Skirmish against a group that knows what they are doing with a healer in the mix and they will comfortably 2v1.

[snarfrificus.4230]

I need healing.... Genji Overwatch

[starlinvf.1358]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:Tks for the correction, had to play it again and see why i tough they were destroyed, for some reason i tough they were destroyable like sumons, i played with ventari 2 months ago, should remember it wasnt destroyable..but for some reason....

yeah testing against group with lots of scourges wasnt the ideal test ground, it is a pain, had to swap back to Jalis, that thign with mediocre to decent groups on both sides is unplayable due combat movement required.

Thankfully it isnt, its bad enough designed as it is, imagine if it was killable as well lolI think the bigger problem with Ventari is the tablet design. Its poorly designed in a game that is about movjng, fast paced combat and everything to have to keep moving the tablet every few seconds. In my opinion, they should remove the tablet and make the effects happen round the Revenant. The Heal would need to be changed. Maybe have the Heal summon a passive tablet that follows you and heals and keep the elite so that it is used to destroy the tablet but the utilities proc around yourself rather than the tablet. It has some good skills but its too fiddly and too micro management heavy for this kind of game. Would actually work in a game like WoW where boss fights and such arent all about moving every 2seconds and such but here, it just doesnt work as well.

I would argue the Design of the Tablet suffers from the same Problems all companions in this game suffer..... inability to leverage the feature when it can actually be an advantage, and inability to work around its pit falls. Soulbeast proved a number of things that we've been saying a long time about Ranger pets; but at the same time, its also encouraged players to WANT to be able to use the pet separated for a tactical advantage. So far, its been used like a Reverse Summon- You spend most of your time merged, but then separate to let the pet use its abilities, then merge again to regain Beast skills. A major problem with Core Ranger and Druid is how the Pet is mostly a liability, because you can't control its behavior with enough precision, and you can't shift enough stats into it to act as a suitable passive weapon. But then comes Soul Beast, and the options it offers leverages the pet into something you can use to match situational needs. PoF pets also reflect much needed strength and definition in the Pet skills themselves, intelligent pairing of beast attributes, and distinctive play styles when used. Core pets could afford to have some kind of design pass to better flesh out their individual abilities and attack skills, so each pet can find their way into a build concept.

As for the Tablet, one thing that never gets pointed out is how its designed for the Static fights of Raids, but still remains awkward due to A. how it can't be used to burst heal when needed, and B.What strengths it does have are immediately undermined by cast and after cast times . The Tablet's healing potential is otherwise rather impressive..... but has a situational strength that Raids usually go out of their way to make as least rewarding as possible. The same can be said about combat pacing in WvW, in which the combat system further promotes sharp swings in player performance being a major deciding factor for most fights. Its not a "over time" type battle, so normal methods of fatigue (such as decayed performance or resource shortages) don't function like you would normally expect in other games.

That said, the Tablet needs both passive and active mechanics to function in the wide range of encounters its intended to be used in. Like the Soulbeast, having it centered on the player as a default mode, but then also have the ability to send outward to a location to do something when needed. At minimum, the range of the Tablet movement skill has to be increased to 1200, the activated heal and condi cleanse radius increased when traited in Salvation, and maybe something done with the fragment mechanics to at least make them more interesting and visible to the group. Ideally, the Tablet mechanic reworked so abilities are centered on the Rev for passive healing and general utility, proactively deploying the tablet in situations where it can be a benefit, and update the Elite skill to reflect 2 operating modes. This also brings an opportunity for counter play, where passive mode elite is a strong supportive effect (perhaps replacing the knock back with a strong heal), while the active mode retains its semi-offensive element. In both cases, the Tablet is lost for a duration to reform, which causes the Rev to lose all its passive benefits. Some additional thought would need to be put into how the Elite drains energy for stronger effects, as the current version doesn't lose the effects of the tablet given how it can be resummoned immediately. I find this approach would be far more practical for the Stance as a whole, because it can't be expected for an entire line of skills to require a controlled environment just to be minimally functional.

[starlinvf.1358]

@Elva.6372 said:

@"Buy Some Apples.6390" said:There are several builds which can be used as healer builds.

Problem is:1) Loot is based on damaging target above a certain amount in order for you to tag it for loot. Healer builds have very very low tag rate, hence very very low loot2) The condi cancer meta is literally cancer. You cannot heal and cleanse the condis at anywhere near close to the rate at which condis are applied. By the time you remove all condis you are full of consid again and your skills are on cooldown for 10 to 30 seconds, all the while more condis are added and refreshed.

So in order to even just level it, you will probably need half your zerg on these healer builds, all of whom will get very low amount of loot keeping their dps members alive, who will get all the loot.

Or you can play the condi meta of 90% necro scourges and everyone gets loot, even if they wipe to the enemy condi zerg they still get a bit of loot.When players of these healing build win again the enemy zerg, they still get very little loot for all the effort they put in.

I believe Anet devs call this balance.

They got rid of the trinity, only reward dps players, and completely forgot about those who like to play healer builds.

You border on heresy, good Sir! (or Ma'am)

Rethinking the Trinity of MMO Design

Unfortunately, skill-based systems also have some well-known problems. The first is that they can be hard to balance, especially for inexperienced designers. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that players will take the most powerful set of skills available, leading to a lot of "flavor of the month" setups.

Because of this problem, characters are not diverse, despite a system that should allow for a wide variety of abilities. A skill-based system with some refinements, such as opposition skills that cannot be taken together, could solve some of these well-known issues.

Linked below is a good commentary about how we don't necessarily get higher levels of "diversity in play-styles" when the Trinity gets dumped.

Why MMOs Should Keep the Trinity

One of the most popular arguments against the holy trinity is that it discourages diversity in classes. It’s an understandable complaint: doing difficult content in a trinity-based game often requires you to focus solely on stats and skills related to your role. Jacks-of-all-trades are, at the end of the day, masters of none, and can have a hard time finding a group who wants to support their “sub-optimal” playstyle.

However, while many current trinity-free MMOs offer a fascinating selection of class abilities, it seems that in practice all players focus on one thing: doing damage. Any deviation from either doing lots of damage or enabling others to do lots of damage is frowned upon by the general playerbase.

All that is based on a false presumption. The Encounter design drives what methods are or aren't viable. When you're PvE team leans heavily on typical MMO mob design, which is explicitly designed to compliment a Trinity team comp, then yeah..... the 2 halves are not going to mesh properly. Just look at most Single Player shooters or PvE MMOs built on Shooter/Action based combat. So many of those games have enemies which have horribly simple, or at least very predictable behaviors that are insanely easy to exploit once their gimmick is figured out. Compare that to Team based shooters which still have a fairly strong functional distinction between builds/classes, but are operated by players rather then potato AI. The difference in play and counter play are so drastic, most of those games can't function anywhere near as good without huge investment into AI and/or Enemy design to mimic player behaviors.

I've said since the beta of GW2..... the mobs are proverbial "trash", because their AI offers no challenge to the player. It never adapts, it barely reacts, and the difficulty in fighting them is measured on the frequency of CCs or 1-shot levels of damage. But when they experimented with a hand full of "common sense" behaviors with the AI in early testing (such as moving out of AOE circles), the bulk of the play testers responded negatively to it. How do you design an action combat system around an enemy thats almost completely passive, and still make it interesting for the player in the long term? They've been trying to a larger variety of attacks, each with specific counters... but once that counter is learned, the enemy becomes trivial to fight. All that leaves is big numbers "damage and HP" to make them take longer to kill, and increasing the opportunity for the player to get lazy or screw up.

Sadly the future rests in AI getting smarter, but players hate things which beat them. I also consider the perception of PvE and PvP being inherently different to be a fallacy, as is many player's belief that losing to AI is ok, yet losing to a player is borderline griefing. Especially since "difficult" Mobs tend to use the same cheesy tactics players would use, given the opportunity. Given opportunity and desire, you could very much incentivize an AI to be a so much of a jerk, that some would even swear its a player trying to harass them. And personally, I find breaking down of line between player and AI behavior to be one of the first steps to fixing some of the oldest problems with MMOs, and offer players a more dynamic experience. It doesn't mean all AI Mobs should perform better then the player.... but having an AI system that will display quirks of players at various skill levels, and leveraging skills the way players would, will finally open up doors for action combat systems to improve how PvE encounters are designed for them. Or is everyone perfectly happy with how Destiny turned out?

[Aeolus.3615]

@ArmageddonAsh.6430 @starlinvf.1358Vent, for me needed a mandatory binded to Q, E, F and & Q to get faster response, even so skills could act faster due the manual labour a player needs to have :\

Yeah A.I on games need it's own datacenter ahahha, starlinvf look at https://blog.openai.com/openai-five/

60,000 CPU cores on Azure - 128,000 preemptible CPU cores on GCP256 K80 GPUs on Azure - 256 P100 GPUs on GCP

[Elva.6372]

By neutering the power of the trinity, active and involved player to player cooperation as part of the game is reduced to near non-existent levels with everyone mostly doing their own thing in most game modes. There had been the early attempt to shift cooperation into combo field interactions but that has mostly been relegated to a passive "nice when it happens" type of thing.

GW2's problem is a social gaming one - with roles largely blurred, with the "jack of all trades" approach the game play loses distinction as players team together.

It's a jumble - unless you know your teammates intimately - there's simply no framework to build solid team-play upon or even basic expectations. Purpose

For myself, this is why I rarely group and mostly solo -the game is too open ended for its own good.

Games need rules, and games need roles.

Purpose is important, anything that makes it bland isn't good for fun or engagement.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Elva.6372 said:with roles largely blurred

Are they blurred?

I mean when was the last time you saw a 50 man zerg consisting of berserker firebrands, minstrel scourges, soldier weavers and cleric spellbreakers supported by the gank groups of dire deadeyes and apothecary mirages?

[Elva.6372]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Elva.6372" said:with roles largely blurred

Are they blurred?

I mean when was the last time you saw a 50 man zerg consisting of berserker firebrands, minstrel scourges, soldier weavers and cleric spellbreakers supported by the gank groups of dire deadeyes and apothecary mirages?

Yeah, this was covered up the thread:

The first is that they can be hard to balance, especially for inexperienced designers. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that players will take the most powerful set of skills available, leading to a lot of "flavor of the month" setups.

Because of this problem, characters are not diverse, despite a system that should allow for a wide variety of abilities. A skill-based system with some refinements, such as opposition skills that cannot be taken together, could solve some of these well-known issues.

And yes blurred - as in every profession is getting a little bit of everything but it still comes down to flavor of the month based on DPS or buffing DPS.

However, while many current trinity-free MMOs offer a fascinating selection of class abilities, it seems that in practice all players focus on one thing: doing damage. Any deviation from either doing lots of damage or enabling others to do lots of damage is frowned upon by the general playerbase. -Why MMOs Should Keep the Trinity

[Aeolus.3615]

IMo the only issue with healing in this game is that it is just aoe aoe aoe, u got no target player and support it, but maybe that would be to hard for casuals :\, ence they need more the stack n spam rather than know and pay atention to who needs it. :skull:

[sephiroth.4217]

Minstrel FB heals like a boss

[FASTCAR.7831]

Just a lil somethingsomethin

[Dediggefedde.4961]

EZ recently published their Build for Heal-Zerg-Engineer. ^^Notes & How-to-play are still missing, but the build is therehttps://ez.gw2discord.eu/builds/engineer.html

[FASTCAR.7831]

Engy is really bad

[Apolo.5942]

@LaGranse.8652 said:This game was not made with the tank/dps/healer roles in mind. It promoted more active defence and only some endgame PvE and WvW zegs actually need a healer. In all other content you do just fine with your dodges & defensive skills.

Yeah, that was a huge mistake, one they have slowly rolled back on (raids, spvp and wvw) and one that should have never been made.

Healer, Dps, Tank is a trope, things become a trope for a reason, mainly because they are popular and work.

[Gretzel.6790]

Scourge healer is awesome too. I've healed 6-8 man havocs through slaughtering 20+ man groups. Well of blood with apothecary is one of the best revival mechanics in the game; and I can port downed players out of a stomp/aoe before springing them back to life almost instantly upon touching them. 8-10k+ Barriers timed right are no joke as well.