Counterpoint: This double XP weekend was not so great

[Tinnel.4369]

How do you resolve your loot statistics from running around for the duration with the statement you've spent a large chunk of time don't something else?

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"Elizabeth Reed.9173" Thats actually very untrue. A lot of the changes they've made, chiefly the reworks they've given to Deadeye and Mesmer as well as just the implementation of Scourge has significantly lessened the level of experience, knowledge and skill it takes for someone to get kills on those classes. Not to mention the state that sPvP itself is in, along with the balance in WvW. None of those are favoring "elitists" by any means, on top of the fact that GW2 compared to a lot of other games is actually pretty significantly casual.

I've been on both sides of the spectrum, I've been an extremely casual player and I've been a more hardcore player. Its easy to try and call out the more experienced players and say they are elitist when all they want is a more healthy PvP experience, and for people to be willing to learn and improve in PvP rather than get absurdly hostile. Which is probably why you see people get very frustrated at the more casual players, because over the nearly 6 years this game has been active, a lot of the time when people are trying to help or give advice they got immediately attacked. Granted there are some bad apples that just attack newer, less experienced players because of inherent toxicity, but not everyone is that way. In fact most people in WvW will either help you directly or direct you to a website/set of guides to help you learn if you just ask rather than become volatile.

Speaking from experience I've seen the term "metaslave" thrown around, "meta elitist", "robot" and a smattering of other things that are a bit less nice than those. In fact the attitude you're taking right now on the subject is what I'm referring to. If you're a more casual player that is fine, no one should be telling you not to be, but if you're then simultaneously going and either complaining about being killed so often, being ganked constantly or constantly needing to run back to the zerg/camp/keep/tower that you were previously at, then I think that might signify needing to re-evaluate what you're trying to accomplish in WvW. Possibly try to stop getting frustrated because you're a more casual player, or you can try to learn and improve to resolve those kinds of complaints.

[Pepper.3901]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

It’s a team game mode; not dueling.

What you described would be present with or without down state.

[Substance E.4852]

@atheria.2837 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

Implying WvW has ever been remotely "fair".

[Pepper.3901]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

It’s a team game mode; not dueling.

What you described would be present with or without down state.

No, it's not.

Delusions of 'togetherness' in WvW is dangerous.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

It’s a team game mode; not dueling.

What you described would be present with or without down state.

No, it's not.

Delusions of 'togetherness' in WvW is dangerous.

Explain exactly why it’s not a team game mode then.

[Mandar.9813]

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

There is always a trade off for utilizing a class or build that has high damage mitigation. Those individuals won't do the bulk of the damage but if they bring along a glass canon friend to do the damage, it becomes their job to protect and mitigate damage for their glass buddies. It's definitely competitive, but not intended to be so on an individual level. That's what PvP is for, where 1 on 1 dueling can be incredibly important. One on one dueling has no impact whatsoever on the results of a WvW match, but when you pit one group against another group where players are supporting the group effort in their own ways, it becomes a competition of which team is better. Clearly, this isn't always the case when we talk about servers that are simply outnumbered in certain time slots and other known issues commonly discussed, and none of this is to say that the game mode is perfect as it and doesn't need improvement. However, I couldn't disagree more that it's not competitive at all. It's just not competitive the way you would like it to be, maybe?

[Pepper.3901]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

It’s a team game mode; not dueling.

What you described would be present with or without down state.

No, it's not.

Delusions of 'togetherness' in WvW is dangerous.

Explain exactly why it’s not a team game mode then.

I didn't say that it wasn't a team game mode.

My objection comes with the fact that one shot builds, whether legitimate or not (and we all know there are hacks being used in WvW), exist and arenot 'balance' of any kind whatsoever.

Anet stated unequivocally that WvW is about a 'fair fight'.

How is any one shot build 'fair' to anyone except those taking advantage of a 'secret' or a 'hack'?

Most of these people are not with others, they are hunting single and up to four people at a time to kill them.

How is that 'team'?

[RedShark.9548]

@Elizabeth Reed.9173 said:

@"Adzekul.3104" said:3) The no-downstate mechanic favours the experienced and active PvP sub-population of WvW. Those with Gold+ PvP rank (or perhaps Platinum+). Those capable of 1v2 or 1v3 play. WvW has always been the super-casual game mode that anyone and everyone can play, with their un-optimized builds/gear/experience (ask Mighty Teapot about how many times he sees people running around in greens, or non-lvl-80). people like me, who avoid the PvP game mode because we are too slow or too bad or too casual or too disinclined to optimize and are the ones who do not enjoy the lack of down-state. Whether this makes a majority or minority is unknown to me. Maybe people want to purify the WvW population of the casuals. But I posit that this would be a dangerous move; the game mode needs more people, not less.

And so I have found myself doing non-WvW stuff for a chunk of this week. I will jump right back in after the weekly reset, of course, but wanted to give my respectful 2 cents while I wait out the end of the event.

In the end, I am of the feeling that the event was rather divisive, with strong feelings for and strong against. Such a division would not be a healthy long-term result for the WvW game mode, and is workable only for short-term tests.

Very well said. The favoring of the elite guilds and elite players has always been an ANet tradition. Simply put there's more money to be made catering to the mega guilds and it's hardcore players. The casual guilds and it's players are despised by ANet. With this simple mechanic they can eliminate half the player base and focus their efforts on the elitist ranks. Go for it ANet! There are other games that care about their casual player base. Let the elites ruin a once great game just like they did to Warhammer Online. So please ignore us casual gamers. After all we don't amount to "much".

are you kidding me ? anet has always favored casuals not "elitists"...what are you even talking about? gw2 was MEANT to be a casual environment, they dont even have an esports scene anymore because they are too casual ?

also downstate heavily favors larger groups,how do some ppl get the idea that smaller groups benefit more from downstate than the larger group they fight against? tte bigger numbers can way easier rezz their downs while still dishing out dmg, the smaller group has to choose between rezzing or doing dmg to keep tje big blob to run them over with an endless push, even is some go down they just keep going and the downs will get rezzed by ppl running in the back

[Shazmataz.1423]

Personally, I got more loot bags than usual....but it may depend on the class that you normally play. Some people did complain that their class was disadvantaged by no downstate but it was a good week to try something new.

However, it is time that Anet rewarded the support players who keep the dps-ers alive to get bags. There needs to be rewards for a certain amount of healing, protection and so on that the non dps classes/builds provide for the survival of their group.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

It’s a team game mode; not dueling.

What you described would be present with or without down state.

No, it's not.

Delusions of 'togetherness' in WvW is dangerous.

Explain exactly why it’s not a team game mode then.

I didn't say that it wasn't a team game mode.

My objection comes with the fact that one shot builds, whether legitimate or not (and we all know there are hacks being used in WvW), exist and arenot 'balance' of any kind whatsoever.

Anet stated unequivocally that WvW is about a 'fair fight'.

How is any one shot build 'fair' to anyone

except those taking advantage

of a 'secret' or a 'hack'?

Most of these people are not with others, they are hunting single and up to four people at a time to kill them.

How is that 'team'?

Actually, you did... twice.

In my post I stated that it was a team game mode and then you responded that “No, it’s not.” And just now you’re still questioning it being that.

You play with others where everyone covers each other’s weaknesses. Builds that have combos that can quickly kill another player (no such thing as a one shot build) are an issue but that has zero bearing as to whether WvW is a team game mode or not.

Just because players can do their own thing does not make it any less of a team game mode. There are PvE group events where I can do my own thing and still get credit. Does that make those events any less of a group event? No.

[Chuck.2864]

"One shot" builds as you call them are balanced and can be countered quite easily when you know what you're doing.

You won't counter them by refusing to learn how to play this game and being purely a casual zergling who doesn't want a challenge and runs away from any fight where he isn't backed up by a big group. And being that casual player is ok and you are within your rights to not care about getting good. But don't complain when players who are good kill you easily inva competitive gamemode.

[zinkz.7045]

@Chuck.2864 said:But don't complain when players who are good kill you easily inva competitive gamemode.

Good players and competitive gamemode in relation to GW2 WvW... /facepalm

[Chuck.2864]

@zinkz.7045 said:

@Chuck.2864 said:But don't complain when players who are good kill you easily inva competitive gamemode.

Good players and competitive gamemode in relation to GW2 WvW... /facepalm

Yes, there are solo roamers who are good at the game. Many of them have a PvP background. You disagree?

[X T D.6458]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

It’s a team game mode; not dueling.

What you described would be present with or without down state.

WvW is not a "team" game mode, PvP is because you have set teams with a set amount of people that play matches with a fixed timer. WvW is a factions type of gameplay where you can play whichever way you want whether its solo or with a team.

[mantisboxer.9608]

1. Ive never gotten more loot bags at one time than this no downstate week. If your zerg is smart enough and is aggresive on first push you drop your aoe fields and the bags fill your inventory.
2. No one gives a shit about magic find. 400% means an extra 4% chance on drops. Still gonna roll unlucky 96% of the time
3. Wvw is not casual. Guild wars 2 is a casual game. Wvw is a hardcore game mode.

Basically all your points arent really valid.

[archmagus.7249]

No opportunity for downstate = no finisher, a selling point for the game.

[DeWolfe.2174]

Loading people up with condi's and watching them run away to pop 10 seconds later was entertaining.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@X T D.6458 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

It’s a team game mode; not dueling.

What you described would be present with or without down state.

WvW is not a "team" game mode, PvP is because you have set teams with a set amount of people that play matches with a fixed timer. WvW is a factions type of gameplay where you can play whichever way you want whether its solo or with a team.

Your server is your team as you work together towards a common goal.

[DeceiverX.8361]

As an FYI, a "counterpoint" is supposed to be made by objective observation.

If you disagree with something, best to preface it with "Unpopular Opinion."

[X T D.6458]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

It’s a team game mode; not dueling.

What you described would be present with or without down state.

WvW is not a "team" game mode, PvP is because you have set teams with a set amount of people that play matches with a fixed timer. WvW is a factions type of gameplay where you can play whichever way you want whether its solo or with a team.

Your server is your team as you work together towards a common goal.

No, its not. There are no set standards or requirements in WvW for players. You can literally be the only person from a server playing in WvW and a matchup will still run normally, even if there is nobody from a server nothing will change. Team based content is different as there are fixed numbers of players, and rules. WvW is completely open in how you choose to play. This appeals to many people who like to have more freedom and flexibility in playstyles.

[BlueMelody.6398]

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Elizabeth Reed.9173 said:

@"Adzekul.3104" said:3) The no-downstate mechanic favours the experienced and active PvP sub-population of WvW. Those with Gold+ PvP rank (or perhaps Platinum+). Those capable of 1v2 or 1v3 play. WvW has always been the super-casual game mode that anyone and everyone can play, with their un-optimized builds/gear/experience (ask Mighty Teapot about how many times he sees people running around in greens, or non-lvl-80). people like me, who avoid the PvP game mode because we are too slow or too bad or too casual or too disinclined to optimize and are the ones who do not enjoy the lack of down-state. Whether this makes a majority or minority is unknown to me. Maybe people want to purify the WvW population of the casuals. But I posit that this would be a dangerous move; the game mode needs more people, not less.

And so I have found myself doing non-WvW stuff for a chunk of this week. I will jump right back in after the weekly reset, of course, but wanted to give my respectful 2 cents while I wait out the end of the event.

In the end, I am of the feeling that the event was rather divisive, with strong feelings for and strong against. Such a division would not be a healthy long-term result for the WvW game mode, and is workable only for short-term tests.

Very well said. The favoring of the elite guilds and elite players has always been an ANet tradition. Simply put there's more money to be made catering to the mega guilds and it's hardcore players. The casual guilds and it's players are despised by ANet. With this simple mechanic they can eliminate half the player base and focus their efforts on the elitist ranks. Go for it ANet! There are other games that care about their casual player base. Let the elites ruin a once great game just like they did to Warhammer Online. So please ignore us casual gamers. After all we don't amount to "much".

are you kidding me ? anet has always favored casuals not "elitists"...what are you even talking about? gw2 was MEANT to be a casual environment, they dont even have an esports scene anymore because they are too casual ?

also downstate heavily favors larger groups,how do some ppl get the idea that smaller groups benefit more from downstate than the larger group they fight against? tte bigger numbers can way easier rezz their downs while still dishing out dmg, the smaller group has to choose between rezzing or doing dmg to keep tje big blob to run them over with an endless push, even is some go down they just keep going and the downs will get rezzed by ppl running in the back

And that is the point. This is the one pvp-type game that those not blessed with elite-level skills/reflexes/etc can play and enjoy without being constantly dead, and the elitits here want to take even that away from us. There is so much arrogance/derogatory/look-down-your-nose comments at casual-level players here that it sickens me. You have plenty of no-down-state games where it's fast-twitch-or-die that many of us have no chance to enjoy. Don't try to make gw2 another one of those games that excludes the casuals.

No, it's not just lazy/l2p either. Some of us have physical/neurological handicaps that make that level of play impossible.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@X T D.6458 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@X T D.6458 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@atheria.2837 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

It's not competitive at all.

Some have access to many more blocks, reflects and invulnerables than others.

That's not 'fair' in any way without a down state in play.

It’s a team game mode; not dueling.

What you described would be present with or without down state.

WvW is not a "team" game mode, PvP is because you have set teams with a set amount of people that play matches with a fixed timer. WvW is a factions type of gameplay where you can play whichever way you want whether its solo or with a team.

Your server is your team as you work together towards a common goal.

No, its not. There are no set standards or requirements in WvW for players. You can literally be the only person from a server playing in WvW and a matchup will still run normally, even if there is nobody from a server nothing will change. Team based content is different as there are fixed numbers of players, and rules. WvW is completely open in how you choose to play. This appeals to many people who like to have more freedom and flexibility in playstyles.

No it won’t as that’s nearly impossible for you to be the only one playing WvW for your server or set of servers. Everything you do helps your team (i.e. linked servers) through a common goal.

I suggest relooking at the definition of team based content. There is no cap on what is considered a team. You’re using what team means in one game mode, within the game, and applying it to what a team means overall. That would be incorrect.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/team

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I don’t see how #3 is a bad thing. Those that are skillful should have an advantage as it’s a competitive game mode. Handicapping them, because some others don’t want to make the effort to get better, is bad.

I'd actually counter-point and say the opposite... The only way that no down-state benefits experienced players over less experienced ones is when numbers are equal or very close.With down-state, a couple of good players can wipe groups twice or even 3 times as large as them, by focusing damage and using rally to recuperate the damage taken from the higher volume of attacks. Without down-state and rally, larger numbers will always win.And WvW already has a problem with skewed numbers of players, so no down-state would just work to exacerbate that issue.

You might think that because of lack of skilled play or teams. Skilled teams vs a larger one of twice the size (or more), down state ONLY favors the larger team, because if they get one of the smaller team down, the ground aoe and aoe caps favor the larger team, they bomb the downed and there is no chance of a res. The smaller team because of aoe caps however, if they down someone because of targeting and team focus, they often times can't do much because bombing the larger team does almost no dmg and they fully res the downed player very fast, as these out numbered fights the only chance the smaller team has is coordination and skill and have to pick off the other team one by one until numbers are even. With no downed state it's possible to target one or two in a larger team, go in, fully kill them, reposition while shield/barrier, then retarget the next one or two until numbers are even, at which point the lack of skill of the other group really shows and they all wipe.

I have been winning lots of out numbered fights I never would have before in 1vs2/3/4, because of dmg pressure when trying to finished a downed, it would be an endless rotation of downing one, and them getting resed over and over until I messed up or was out of CDs and got killed. I was with another skilled player in a tower that had just flipped, 6 people inside, with RI lord with them, we killed 4 before the last two jumped out the back of the tower. Would not have been possible with downed state.

What I find funny is very few skilled players and roamers that I know complain about no downed state, it's almost a universal LOVE for it. It has even made my small team I run with get better, because in even numbered fights we were paying more attention to HP and skills, because a chance for a focused res or clutch rally didn't exist. And when we died in fights, we were not mad about it, because we knew where we messed up, it wasn't because of some random pug rally or power ressing from a larger team.

All this coming from someone who has bought almost every finisher in the game as well. They could however add the finisher as an instant cast when someone dies, but even if they didn't, I would give up without refund, all of my finishers to never have downed state again. I always knew I would love it, but I didn't think it would have as big of an impact on skilled play as it does.