Should LI be sold by raid vendors?

[Feanor.2358]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Most people here are not presenting proper development reasons for there not to be LI-selling.

That's not how burden of proof works. It's not up to them to reason their disagreement, it's up to the one who proposes the change to provide arguments for it.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:Most people here are not presenting proper development reasons for there not to be LI-selling.

That's not how burden of proof works. It's not up to them to reason their disagreement, it's up to the one who proposes the change to provide arguments for it.

This.

If you want something to change the burden of arguing that the improvement is actually better and beneficial is with the side that wants change. The side content with status quo doesn't have to do anything besides disprove or disagree on there being a benefit and even that is way more than required if the change is highly disputable.

[Fenom.9457]

Spent all day today trying to get some progress done, did not get a single kill as groups disband too quickly (one of the best teams I joined disbanded after 2 tries).

[Vinceman.4572]

Taking notes of your personal fate is ok but I doubt anyone here has an interest in reading it. Just saying.

[Mister Asdasd.6194]

@SirBlunticus.4258 said:Should be attainable w/o going into raids....thats why people play this game. Or Anet needs to make another legendary armor set for other players to get.After raiding in other mmos, if you have no bias... you have to admit GW2 explains nothing on class needs/builds or what have you. ( This is what starts the raiding experience)People pick a toon that sounds cool and kill stuff, that is GW2.... that's why people bought it. Make 2 sets of legendary armor....or provide explanation on classes/roles/abilities (tutorials on builds, let me save builds in 2018 please)....IN GAME!

I maybe have 1 LI I dunno, but tried to raid in this game and it's entirely too frustrating....I'll just play other modes. (wish this wasn't the case as I love raiding)

There are already other legendary armor sets, you can just play WvW and grind your legendary set, there are 0 restrictions playing that mode, pvp armor also has no restriction, just grind. So there you go 2 armor sets you can make without radingYou can also read a guide online for what classes are sought after in raids, you dont need an in game tutorial, as far as i know other mmos dont tell you what to pick or not to pick in group content. There are also tons of videos and written guides about raid boss tutorials, popular raid class builds and rotations. Also your first phrase is weird, people dont play the game to get raid armor without doing raids

[NikeEU.7690]

@Fenom.9457 said:Spent all day today trying to get some progress done, did not get a single kill as groups disband too quickly (one of the best teams I joined disbanded after 2 tries).

No offense but the common denominator here is you.

If you want some advice, join a raid training discord. Join a guild. Learn the fights. Learn your build. These raids are extremely easy, if you apply yourself properly you cannot fail to kill bosses. Going in with a negative defeatist attitude isn't serving you.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Mister Asdasd.6194 said:

@"SirBlunticus.4258" said:Should be attainable w/o going into raids....thats why people play this game. Or Anet needs to make another legendary armor set for other players to get.After raiding in other mmos, if you have no bias... you have to admit GW2 explains nothing on class needs/builds or what have you. ( This is what starts the raiding experience)People pick a toon that sounds cool and kill stuff, that is GW2.... that's why people bought it. Make 2 sets of legendary armor....or provide explanation on classes/roles/abilities (tutorials on builds, let me save builds in 2018 please)....IN GAME!

I maybe have 1 LI I dunno, but tried to raid in this game and it's entirely too frustrating....I'll just play other modes. (wish this wasn't the case as I love raiding)

There are already other legendary armor sets, you can just play WvW and grind your legendary set, there are 0 restrictions playing that mode, pvp armor also has no restriction, just grind. So there you go 2 armor sets you can make without radingYou can also read a guide online for what classes are sought after in raids, you dont need an in game tutorial, as far as i know other mmos dont tell you what to pick or not to pick in group content. There are also tons of videos and written guides about raid boss tutorials, popular raid class builds and rotations. Also your first phrase is weird, people dont play the game to get raid armor without doing raids

Let us make it very clear again that PvP armor has got nothing on the actual legendary armor skin that was (intended to be the only one by the way) released with raid content. Now I'm not even the only one saying it, this is from the last AMA on reddit:

"There is no PvP legendary armor. We’re getting an updated skin in the future, but I’d never compare it to a legendary skin."

The players who want "free stuff" as you are all putting it actually care more for the transformation skin than they care for swapping stats, in case any of you still can't let that sink in. If you ask me, I think this should have been a gemstore item skin without the stat-switching while raids only got a more generic skin but could stat-swap and keep 2 rune sets. That would probably not have driven people into "wanting" to raid when all they "want" is having the only armor skins in the game with on/off combat phases.

[Fenom.9457]

@NikeEU.7690 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:Spent all day today trying to get some progress done, did not get a single kill as groups disband too quickly (one of the best teams I joined disbanded after 2 tries).

No offense but the common denominator here is you.

If you want some advice, join a raid training discord. Join a guild. Learn the fights. Learn your build. These raids are extremely easy, if you apply yourself properly you cannot fail to kill bosses. Going in with a negative defeatist attitude isn't serving you.

I did join a raiding guild but they were only doing exp runs yesterday. I also had discord ready but nobody used it.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Fenom.9457 said:

@NikeEU.7690 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:Spent all day today trying to get some progress done, did not get a single kill as groups disband too quickly (one of the best teams I joined disbanded after 2 tries).

No offense but the common denominator here is you.

If you want some advice, join a raid training discord. Join a guild. Learn the fights. Learn your build. These raids are extremely easy, if you apply yourself properly you cannot fail to kill bosses. Going in with a negative defeatist attitude isn't serving you.

I did join a raiding guild but they were only doing exp runs yesterday. I also had discord ready but nobody used it.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26802/na-raid-training-discord-server-the-raider-s-inn-is-looking-for-more-members

also found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6xir8j/introducing_guild_wars_2_raid_training_a_discord/

Not sure how active the community is by now since I haven't used them but they were going very strong back in the day. There is a training in progress as I type this (yes I took the time to check the discord server out).

[Linken.6345]

@Fenom.9457 said:

@NikeEU.7690 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:Spent all day today trying to get some progress done, did not get a single kill as groups disband too quickly (one of the best teams I joined disbanded after 2 tries).

No offense but the common denominator here is you.

If you want some advice, join a raid training discord. Join a guild. Learn the fights. Learn your build. These raids are extremely easy, if you apply yourself properly you cannot fail to kill bosses. Going in with a negative defeatist attitude isn't serving you.

I did join a raiding guild but they were only doing exp runs yesterday. I also had discord ready but nobody used it.

Yea thats becouse monday is usualy clear day for people then the rest of the week they help others.

[TexZero.7910]

@Fenom.9457 said:I did join a raiding guild but they were only doing exp runs yesterday. I also had discord ready but nobody used it.Start your own group....

Seriously at this point, if you expect every player out there to be available at you convenience then its easy to see why you have issues with Raids.

[Cassandra.1506]

Literally logged in to forums for the first time in my life to say write to this.Absolutely no. Some people want minis, some people want titles, some people want armor. Some of them are time-gated, some of them are money-gated and this, legendary armor is skill-gated. If you have enough money, its money-gated. When I started GW2, there wasn't any raids, but i liked it when they were punched in. I stopped playing for a long time and came back a year ago. You know how it was? There were 3 more raid wings, Challange Modes, different bosses etc. I was amazed. The only thing I know was "Step on greens with at least 4 people on Vale Guardian and dont be on blues cause they teleport". The first thing I did was to find a guild. Through different routes it took me 1 WEEK to find a guild that does practice runs. I tried to get into every single raid that i could with them, people told me Reaper sucked, so I created a druid solely based on that (and then a berserker and then dps classes and then a chrono). I learned how to druid, bs and how the bosses were. Our groups lacked so many things, people who refused to learn what "thoughness" is or people clicking everything to do "dps". I couldn't kill Deimos for first 2 months (or 3 not sure) and Wing 2 was total hell, wing 3 was out of bonds except escort. In the mean time, I met with a lot of different people, who were willing to learn, who were already good, who were willing to teach. When people said "How can you die as a druid in Matthias?" I ate those words to get better, checked what I did wrong etc. I raided at least once a week for a year, and 2-3 times a week since i joined my current group on last October, grinded my teeth, ran countless hours to get wing 5 perfectly, pulled dhuum 300 to 400 times to get the title. In the mean time, we strictly refuse to get pugs, its not even about the dps.We can run most bosses 8-7 man with a breeze, 8-man dhuum is not even a problem, but you know what is a problem?A pug getting the bomb in the group and doesn't realize that they have a special action key popping up, wiping the whole group at something percent, making us go through that pre-phase. A pug pushing the orb out on Xera and KC, a pug that gets the green in the Sabetha and doesn't throw, a pug that dips the whole group into posion on Sloth and Matthias by dropping it in the middle.And these said pugs are not even 10-20 LI people, these pugs are people who link their legendary armor on them, get on KC and do less DPS than the tank with their Dragonhunter (pre-nerf). We pull them, but its sad. (Also at this point, I really dont care if a pug is low dps, if they can do the mechanics good, they just have to practice)I have 634 hours on my druid, that I solely created for fractals and raids, and I only play it on fractals and raids. The only time I got her out to open world was to get her mastery points for other specs just in case. I also played various classes, so my raid hours are beyond that.I grinded so hard to learn this and do that. From start, I had noone in this game when I came back to it. I see no problem with other people doing so. People who are buying them? Life is pretty unfair, some people win loterries, i just view those people like that.Learn a hard-to-fill class. Have various classes. Try hard. Be exceptional.Although its pretty damn hard to be exceptional in this game.

Also yes, everytime i read "We wiped on this for 4 hours! This one is hard!" I just get toxic inside. Been there, done that, never complained. If I did complain, it was to my friends who gave me constructive critisim about my performance. Well, you have a whole topic for yourself for that, thats even better.

[Mister Asdasd.6194]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Mister Asdasd.6194 said:

@"SirBlunticus.4258" said:Should be attainable w/o going into raids....thats why people play this game. Or Anet needs to make another legendary armor set for other players to get.After raiding in other mmos, if you have no bias... you have to admit GW2 explains nothing on class needs/builds or what have you. ( This is what starts the raiding experience)People pick a toon that sounds cool and kill stuff, that is GW2.... that's why people bought it. Make 2 sets of legendary armor....or provide explanation on classes/roles/abilities (tutorials on builds, let me save builds in 2018 please)....IN GAME!

I maybe have 1 LI I dunno, but tried to raid in this game and it's entirely too frustrating....I'll just play other modes. (wish this wasn't the case as I love raiding)

There are already other legendary armor sets, you can just play WvW and grind your legendary set, there are 0 restrictions playing that mode, pvp armor also has no restriction, just grind. So there you go 2 armor sets you can make without radingYou can also read a guide online for what classes are sought after in raids, you dont need an in game tutorial, as far as i know other mmos dont tell you what to pick or not to pick in group content. There are also tons of videos and written guides about raid boss tutorials, popular raid class builds and rotations. Also your first phrase is weird, people dont play the game to get raid armor without doing raids

Let us make it very clear

again

that PvP armor has got nothing on the actual legendary armor skin that was (intended to be the only one by the way) released with raid content. Now I'm not even the only one saying it, this is from the last AMA on reddit:

"There is no PvP legendary armor. We’re getting an updated skin in the future, but I’d never compare it to a legendary skin."

The players who want "free stuff" as you are all putting it actually

care more for the transformation skin than they care for swapping stats

, in case any of you still can't let that sink in. If you ask me, I think this should have been a gemstore item skin without the stat-switching while raids only got a more generic skin but could stat-swap and keep 2 rune sets. That would probably not have driven people into "wanting" to raid when all they "want" is having the only armor skins in the game with on/off combat phases.

I seriously do t understand this mentality of wanting everythi g handed out to you with no effort, if you want the skins instead of complaining on forums or trying to buy them with the magnetite shards you got crom wiping on vale guardian training runs find a guild or a static group. I found a raiding guild, did training, got into a static group and they taught me. They wanted to make raids feel epic and worthwile by adding the "ultimate reward" , transforming armor sets. I dont even find the skins that good either, heavy armor is ok but very generic when in idle mode, medium is another trenchcoat and light is way too revealing on females and the pants are way too big. I just use them so i can swap from condi warrior to spellbreaker or chronotank/off chrono or mirrage. You cant always have everything you want, this is life lesson, deal with it or man up and find a group or something

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Cassandra.1506" said:Also yes, everytime i read "We wiped on this for 4 hours! This one is hard!" I just get toxic inside.Me too, but for a completely different reason altogether. 4 hours wiping before killing your first boss? That sounds really amazing to me, and the first thing that comes to mind is that this person probably had some already pretty experienced people in the group (even if they were unaware of it).

For me, it took well over two months of constant, day to day wiping. And i had an advantage of having a semi-static (semi, because obviously not everyone made it to the end) group, not a completely random unexperienced pug. And i know, that my experience wasn't unique.

Yes, i know it might have been faster for me if i tried pugging and/or went for training guilds (because it's much easier to learn if not everyone in the squad starts from zero). Why i didn't do that? See my sig.

So, when i hear "it's not that hard, you just need to be tougher and persevere, instead of wanting everything given to you" i don't feel really understanding. Because i am sure that most of people saying it would not have been able to take 2+ months of constant failures.

[Fenom.9457]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:I did join a raiding guild but they were only doing exp runs yesterday. I also had discord ready but nobody used it.Start your own group....

Seriously at this point, if you expect every player out there to be available at you convenience then its easy to see why you have issues with Raids.

Did you read when i mentioned I’ve also tried numerous times to start a group?

[MithranArkanere.8957]

No. The other way around. They need a sink so good that holding onto them is so unthinkable that they can't no longer be used as a requirement for LFG.

I'm talking "new source of mystic coins" kind of good. Or maybe even better.

[Fenom.9457]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cassandra.1506" said:Also yes, everytime i read "We wiped on this for 4 hours! This one is hard!" I just get toxic inside.Me too, but for a completely different reason altogether. 4 hours wiping before killing your first boss? That sounds really amazing to me, and the first thing that comes to mind is that this person probably had some already pretty experienced people in the group (even if they were unaware of it).

For me, it took well over

two months

of constant, day to day wiping. And i had an advantage of having a semi-static (semi, because obviously not everyone made it to the end) group, not a completely random unexperienced pug. And i know, that my experience

wasn't

unique.

Yes, i know it might have been faster for me if i tried pugging and/or went for training guilds (because it's much easier to learn if not everyone in the squad starts from zero). Why i didn't do that? See my sig.

So, when i hear "it's not that hard, you just need to be tougher and persevere, instead of wanting everything given to you" i don't feel really understanding. Because i am sure that most of people saying it would

not

have been able to take 2+ months of constant failures.

The 4 hours post is only referring to one day, and I did not get a kill at the end of it. Even if I had though it wouldn’t have been my first. And wow, 2 months? That’s dedication

[Fenom.9457]

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:No. The other way around. They need a sink so good that holding onto them is so unthinkable that they can't no longer be used as a requirement for LFG.

I'm talking "new source of mystic coins" kind of good. Or maybe even better.

Oh that’s a great idea! A lot of the trouble getting in now is groups requiring 250 LI

[trashmob.6951]

@Fenom.9457 said:Oh that’s a great idea! A lot of the trouble getting in now is groups requiring 250 LI

Keep in mind that it is totally okay if experienced players want to play with other experienced players on their level. Nobody is obligated to take in and teach new players. It's nice if people do, but you cannot expect people to give up much of their time to teach if they don't want to. A teaching run can take hours, while a group with zero new players might get the same kill in under five minutes. Sometimes I don't wanna spend that hour or more, I just wanna spend chill 5 or 10 minutes, and a new player can make that harder or even impossible depending on the fight.If a group requires 250li, then as a new player, you are not what they are looking for. They would notice you being inexperienced, and they would replace you.If you play volleyball with your group of adult friends, it's nice of you if you take in a 6 year old and teach them, but sometimes you just wanna play volleyball.I get that sucks. It's annoying seeing many groups you can't join. But the other nine people in that group want to have fun, too, and play how they want to, in their squad.

However I can promise you that it gets easier once you got a few kills and found a few people you like to play with. And if you know the mechanics of a fight very well, and are decent at a rotation, most commanders in low groups (below 50li) will often let people with a lot less join.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Fenom.9457 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:No. The other way around. They need a sink so good that holding onto them is so unthinkable that they can't no longer be used as a requirement for LFG.

I'm talking "new source of mystic coins" kind of good. Or maybe even better.

Oh that’s a great idea! A lot of the trouble getting in now is groups requiring 250 LI

If LIs go that way groups will take another item as requirement. It's already happening in some full clear groups: "Ping xx Dhuum KP". Even if you eliminate those in the end groups will ask for your API key and check your background via it. It'll only become harder to get into most of the successful groups, not easier!

[Henry.5713]

You might be rather unlucky with your groups but it is far more likely that there is more to your troubles than the supposed toxicity of everyone else.There almost always is. Thousands of players have at least partly pugged their way towards legendary armor, they struggled with beginner groups and training raids just like you do. And yet, those who wanted their armor got it in the end.The amount of LI required should not be balanced around the demands of those who do not even want to raid. The only solutions I could get behind would require you to do the opposite to not playing - such as having weekly kill achievements similar to Fractals, they would ask you to repeat challenge modes for additional rewards, or even something as drastatic as completely removing the weekly cap on LI.

[Feanor.2358]

@Fenom.9457 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cassandra.1506" said:Also yes, everytime i read "We wiped on this for 4 hours! This one is hard!" I just get toxic inside.Me too, but for a completely different reason altogether. 4 hours wiping before killing your first boss? That sounds really amazing to me, and the first thing that comes to mind is that this person probably had some already pretty experienced people in the group (even if they were unaware of it).

For me, it took well over

two months

of constant, day to day wiping. And i had an advantage of having a semi-static (semi, because obviously not everyone made it to the end) group, not a completely random unexperienced pug. And i know, that my experience

wasn't

unique.

Yes, i know it might have been faster for me if i tried pugging and/or went for training guilds (because it's much easier to learn if not everyone in the squad starts from zero). Why i didn't do that? See my sig.

So, when i hear "it's not that hard, you just need to be tougher and persevere, instead of wanting everything given to you" i don't feel really understanding. Because i am sure that most of people saying it would

not

have been able to take 2+ months of constant failures.

The 4 hours post is only referring to one day, and I did not get a kill at the end of it. Even if I had though it wouldn’t have been my first. And wow, 2 months? That’s dedication

FYI it took more than 2 months for my guild "semi-static" to get their first Dhuum kill. Yeah, it's dedication, but that's precisely why it's rewarding to complete it.

I understand your position can be frustrating, but pretty much all of us have been there at some point. And the truth is, you're failing because you're inexperienced. Of course, not all the wipes would have been caused by you personally. But look it that way - each fight gives you a "budget" for mistakes. Every player making a mistake takes some from that budget. Some mistakes take less, some mistakes take more from it. When it gets depleted, you wipe. So personal contribution does count, a lot.

And then of course there's the feedback loop of inexperience - since you're inexperienced you're not very likely to end up in an experienced group which could easily carry you (provided you don't mess up vital mechanics). Thus, you get more people in your groups doing mistakes along with you, which dramatically increases the chances for failure. That's OK. Learn from them. Fail less. Improve. See above for my guild team.

[Zunki.3916]

@Fenom.9457 said:

@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

@"Cregath.7628" said:I don't see the connection between "toxic group kicking you so you don't want to do the collection" and putting Legendary Insights into vendors even for Magnetite Shard. If you can't kill bosses, you don't even have the Magnetite Shards to buy those Insights. If you don't do the Collection then there is no point in getting Insights. I'm confused, someone send help!

I'm confused too, but I'd wager the fact that raid pugs list "show us 250li" in their requirements has something to do with it, somewhere along the way.

Yea, regardless of how it was then, nowadays the LI and prof kill on every single lfg I’ve seen makes it impossible because how can I get LI if I need LI to get more?

I started with zero LI right before the addon, back then ppl had A LOT Li already. I had a HARD time getting into groups, but after you did some kills, taking some weeks, it slowly catched up. I'm currently at 210Li, but after the armor I really stopped raiding, I only do it when I really got some spare time. I did everything with offmeta builds and without a guild/voice completely in pugs.

If you really can't progress you could buy the com tag and start your own raids.Start with 1-3 Li a week (escort, cairn, mo, samarog) and then slowly catch up. Try to focus on one or two new bosses at a time and try to get your kp slowly. It will take some months, but when you are there it'l be a great accomplishment.

Alternatively just do WvW, it's really easy, but also takes time ofc.

[Deeyra.1476]

There are plenty of guilds selling raids, therefore you can already buy LI.

[Dzjudz.9142]

@Fenom.9457 said:So I tried for over 4 hours today to get a raid kill (a mix of training groups and normal ones), and did not get a single kill. Every time we were getting closer to accomplishing a kill, people would give up and disband the squad. I did however earn 30 magnetite shards from my failed attempts

These days I do a full clear in around 2.5 hours with an 8-man group. Do you really think that's how I started raiding too? My first VG kill took more than a week. 4 hours on your very first foray into raiding without a kill is not something to complain about, it's to be expected. Especially if you start with an entire group of 10 people who are also all of them beginners.

Just look at the giant wealth of information there is now about every single raid boss in the game. Look at the multitude of websites with extremely detailed build guides, rotations written out, videos to help you learn your class. Look at the several discords completely tailored to raid training and helping out noobies. It is so much easier to get started in raiding now than it was when we started.

4 hours on VG, I remember those days. You'll come to enjoy the progression as you clear bosses quicker and quicker week after week. Maybe you'll start up a static group for weekly trainings/kills, maybe you'll join an existing static. Who knows? It's part of the experience. Just don't expect to be on the level of people like some of us who have literally spent thousands of hours in raids and killed every single boss hundreds of times in all sorts of set ups, squad combinations, pugs from the extreme low level to the 5-man level. That is just setting false expectations for yourself.

Good luck on raiding, and I hope you make use of all the sources of instructions and assistance out there.

P.S. To the thread question, my answer is no, LI shouldn't be sold by a vendor.