Should LI be sold by raid vendors?

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:No. The other way around. They need a sink so good that holding onto them is so unthinkable that they can't no longer be used as a requirement for LFG.

I'm talking "new source of mystic coins" kind of good. Or maybe even better.

Oh that’s a great idea! A lot of the trouble getting in now is groups requiring 250 LI

If LIs go that way groups will take another item as requirement. It's already happening in some full clear groups: "Ping xx Dhuum KP". Even if you eliminate those in the end groups will ask for your API key and check your background via it. It'll only become harder to get into most of the successful groups, not easier!

It might look like I'm going completely opposed to my previous posts in this topic (I'm not, was only talking about the rewards and how Anet should have tied only unique rewards and not a only one of its kind reward to raids), but I think "It'll only become harder to get into most of the successful groups, not easier!" would actually be a good thing in the long term. Right now a lot of grievance come from the fact that experienced people can't find the likes of them and likewise the unexperienced (bundled together with those who only want the only transforming skin in the game, or some lesser unique skin from particular bosses) can sneak in and attempt to get carried. Fractal people don't hesitate as much to kick others and get on with their lives because having to replace 2 players is much less of a hassle than having to replace say, 4 to 6 pugs who ruined your raiding (and you won't replace them all at once because you'll be painstakingly cutting off the worst performers as they underperform). Having to stop every 5 or so minutes to replace people who give up and leave and "talk about issues" every second wipe is not my idea and I bet not anyone's idea of an experienced pugging group, while on the other hand spending well over 30 minutes to a whole hour to fill in a 10-man squad and still failing to get an actually experienced group isn't either.

I have no idea how to do this and don't think Anet should particularly spend resources on this, but if we're on the topic of players using requirements for groups, it would be beneficial if there was a requirement that allowed to filter even more who was actually experienced (maybe even go as far as "experienced with X class" like the PvP count of how many % matches you have with each one). This way experienced players would be more likely to get the groups they are actually asking for while at the same time, in the possibility that these groups do not actually fill up, they will be forced to lower their own requirement and take in people who need training/explanation. There are many (relative to experienced commanders) wanting to raid in a scarce market of experienced raiders, and if Anet wants to favor newcomers (or at least diminish the amount of leechers) one such attempt would be to actually make it a scarce market to the experienced players instead (and in the off-chance this is not true and most of us are kvlt 1337 pro raiders, we will not feel this dilemma at all and only get to play with people who know what they are doing in general).

[Vinceman.4572]

They won't do that.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Fenom.9457 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:No. The other way around. They need a sink so good that holding onto them is so unthinkable that they can't no longer be used as a requirement for LFG.

I'm talking "new source of mystic coins" kind of good. Or maybe even better.

Oh that’s a great idea! A lot of the trouble getting in now is groups requiring 250 LIRemember, that the problem is not "requiring LI". The problem is that the LFG groups want

experienced players

. LIs are just a means to that end, but not the only possible means. If that one ended up too unreliable/unpractical for one reason or another, it would still not change the fact that those groups still would want to filter potential group members in some way. They would just think of some other way. They'd move to kill proofs, legendary armor pieces, API checks or real raiders of tyria/voice in the void titles.

In the end, nothing would improve here, bcause nothing can improve, as long as those players will feel the need for strict filtering in groups. And they would feel like that as long as the content itself will be hard enough that this filtering would have a significant impact on chances of succesful completion.

@"Feanor.2358" said:FYI it took more than 2 months for my guild "semi-static" to get their first Dhuum kill. Yeah, it's dedication, but that's precisely why it's rewarding to complete it.Dhuum kill. I was speaking about VG. And it being the very first raid boss kill at all (well, not including escort). In those 2 months till dhuum you were likely clearing all the previous wings, and succeeded at SH/river/statues as well. You probably have no idea at all how soul-crushing and bad for morale is being stuck for that long at the initial (and easy, at least compared to what comes later) part of the raid journey.

I understand your position can be frustrating, but pretty much all of us have been there at some point. And the truth is, you're failing because you're inexperienced.Well, you do try to remember that OP is starting just now, and with each passing month (and each new wing) it's getting harder and harder for new players to catch up. It's extremely hard to get experience if you start with a group of 10 total raid newbies. The best way is to get taught (and pulled along) by a group of raid veterans. One new player in a group of 9 veterans is going to learn at a much faster rate than one in a group of 9 other people that are as clueless as he is. And while some of the current veterans did start the hard, former way, most used the later approach. And it's much harder to use that one, because the requirements keep going up and up, and it's harder and harder to get in a more experienced group as a new player. Training guilds also are less and less effective, for a multitude of reasons.

Not that there's any solution to this as long as raids remain as they are. This is simply a natural consequence of raid mechanics and difficulty levels. After all, veteran players do not have any obligation towards helping new ones. Especially not when doing that might cause some significant problems in the run, up to being unable to succesfully complete it.

And it certainly won't be solved by making LIs buyable.

My advice for OP: by now it's pretty much cleas you don't have enough determination and perseverance to try pugging to victory. That's okay, many players don't. That means you have only two options left. One is training guilds (they aren't as good of an option as they once were, but they do offer a chance to learn boss mechanics and maybe grab some kills/LI/KP every now and then, and they won't require any previously obtained LIs for that), another is finding your own static group. Neither of those options will be fast, easy or pleasant(unless you'll get lucky enough to get friends with some raid veterans willing to help you out, and even then it's likely to be painful in the beginning). Probably (seeing your reactions in this thread) there won't be any fun in it as well (at least initially). Eventually though you should be able to get to the point where you will be able to do at least easier bosses.

Only you can know however if all that will be worth it to you.

[TexZero.7910]

@Fenom.9457 said:Did you read when i mentioned I’ve also tried numerous times to start a group?

Yep, and i can see your ability to lead may be in question from said people in the group. So at this point if people are actively avoiding you, then maybe look at yourself really carefully and ask if there's something you're doing wrong. It may not even be mechanical.

[Mister Asdasd.6194]

The problem with most people new to raids is that they start by practicing on Vale Guardian, when raids were a thing at first it was you only option, but now it is easier to just practice on Wing 4 because the bosses there , up to Deimos at least are pushovers. Vale Guardian on the other hand is more of a "noob trap" people assume that because it is the first boss of the first raid he will be easy, funny enough he can be tricky if people dont pay attention to their surrounding to enter the green cryrcle or if people get ported too much, the porting part should be a bit easier now that we get the yellow border of Epilepsy to warn us about it but overall Vale Guardian has many mechanics that can overwhelm newer people. He requires map awareness, precise tanking and splitting into groups for the sub bosses. Cairn of Wing 4 on the other hand is a boss that doesnt move, its attacks wont even hit you if you are close to him and the porting holes are way more visible than Vale Guardian's , other than that people with agony just take a step back. SO dont fall into the Vale Guardian trap and head to Wing 4 first, your experience will be way more pleasant and progress will be faster

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:No. The other way around. They need a sink so good that holding onto them is so unthinkable that they can't no longer be used as a requirement for LFG.

I'm talking "new source of mystic coins" kind of good. Or maybe even better.

Oh that’s a great idea! A lot of the trouble getting in now is groups requiring 250 LI

If LIs go that way groups will take another item as requirement. It's already happening in some full clear groups: "Ping xx Dhuum KP". Even if you eliminate those in the end groups will ask for your API key and check your background via it. It'll only become harder to get into most of the successful groups, not easier!

That is solved by preventing those items from stacking and adding to the vendors a conversion to the raid currency.

[Astralporing.1957]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No. The other way around. They need a sink so good that holding onto them is so unthinkable that they can't no longer be used as a requirement for LFG.

I'm talking "new source of mystic coins" kind of good. Or maybe even better.

Oh that’s a great idea! A lot of the trouble getting in now is groups requiring 250 LI

If LIs go that way groups will take another item as requirement. It's already happening in some full clear groups: "Ping xx Dhuum KP". Even if you eliminate those in the end groups will ask for your API key and check your background via it. It'll only become harder to get into most of the successful groups, not easier!

That is solved by preventing those items from stacking and adding to the vendors a conversion to the raid currency.Which items? API keys? Or titles for wing CM completion?

[Vinceman.4572]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No. The other way around. They need a sink so good that holding onto them is so unthinkable that they can't no longer be used as a requirement for LFG.

I'm talking "new source of mystic coins" kind of good. Or maybe even better.

Oh that’s a great idea! A lot of the trouble getting in now is groups requiring 250 LI

If LIs go that way groups will take another item as requirement. It's already happening in some full clear groups: "Ping xx Dhuum KP". Even if you eliminate those in the end groups will ask for your API key and check your background via it. It'll only become harder to get into most of the successful groups, not easier!

That is solved by preventing those items from stacking and adding to the vendors a conversion to the raid currency.

How do you prevent API checks? The only thing is that if you ignore them it'll result in a kick.

[Elrey.5472]

I am now over 1000+ LIs and I have no use for them, I actually wish we could sell them TO vendor.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No. The other way around. They need a sink so good that holding onto them is so unthinkable that they can't no longer be used as a requirement for LFG.

I'm talking "new source of mystic coins" kind of good. Or maybe even better.

Oh that’s a great idea! A lot of the trouble getting in now is groups requiring 250 LI

If LIs go that way groups will take another item as requirement. It's already happening in some full clear groups: "Ping xx Dhuum KP". Even if you eliminate those in the end groups will ask for your API key and check your background via it. It'll only become harder to get into most of the successful groups, not easier!

That is solved by preventing those items from stacking and adding to the vendors a conversion to the raid currency.

How do you prevent API checks? The only thing is that if you ignore them it'll result in a kick.

I do not remember any record of the number of times a raid wing has been beaten, and expecting people to store a ton of an item in lots of bags is simply unreasonable, so if items are made non-stacking, API checks can only really check whether someone did something once before. That is not too unreasonable to me. The only thing I'm against is people expecting everyone to play the same. People have lives and weekends and holidays, and families. But doing the thing at least once? That's fine. There could be better ways to help people do the first run on each wing, but it's not impossible.

[Astralporing.1957]

What api checks can do is to show whether you have killed a specific raid boss this week. There's only a small step from this info to a site (or efficiency option) that would track that information week after week, thus becoming a third party boss counter. Noone's using anything like that now for LFG filtering, because LIs and KPs are "good enough" options, but i can easily envision raid community turning to options like that if their current options were to be removed. And of course there are also options like asking for proof you've done Dhuum CM before you get admitted to VG group.

Or being very aggresive in kicking after every single failure. Or all of the above.

In the long run, as i said before: as long as people will feel the need to filter their LFGs, they will do so. You may make it more complicated for them, but you can't stop it. Not this way. Because in the end ou cannot change the most basic fact - they just simply do not want to group with inexperienced people.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:What api checks can do is to show whether you have killed a specific raid boss this week. There's only a small step from this info to a site (or efficiency option) that would track that information week after week, thus becoming a third party boss counter. Noone's using anything like that now for LFG filtering, because LIs and KPs are "good enough" options, but i can easily envision raid community turning to options like that if their current options were to be removed. And of course there are also options like asking for proof you've done Dhuum CM before you get admitted to VG group.

Or being very aggresive in kicking after every single failure. Or all of the above.

In the long run, as i said before: as long as people will feel the need to filter their LFGs, they will do so. You may make it more complicated for them, but you can't stop it. Not this way. Because in the end ou cannot change the most basic fact - they just simply do not want to group with inexperienced people.

This.

I often disagree with Astral on design or occasionally balance decision but on this one he is spot on.

The one thing you can not control (or should not) is players ability to play with like minded people (both in experience, approach to the game or w/e). If players want to group with similar experienced players there is no way to deny them that and they will likely go through a lot of hoops to achieve said goal, especially when rewards are concerned.

Basically just reinforcing what I have always been advocating for: a better grouping system. Give players not less but more options to find other players of desired skill, class or w/e they are looking for. Let toxic elitists play with other toxic elitists. Let people who are more chilled or relaxed have an easier time finding others who are like them. Let people who run training runs properly advertise those so inexperienced players of different levels can join. Problem solved.

[SirBlunticus.4258]

@Mister Asdasd.6194 said:

@"SirBlunticus.4258" said:Should be attainable w/o going into raids....thats why people play this game. Or Anet needs to make another legendary armor set for other players to get.After raiding in other mmos, if you have no bias... you have to admit GW2 explains nothing on class needs/builds or what have you. ( This is what starts the raiding experience)People pick a toon that sounds cool and kill stuff, that is GW2.... that's why people bought it. Make 2 sets of legendary armor....or provide explanation on classes/roles/abilities (tutorials on builds, let me save builds in 2018 please)....IN GAME!

I maybe have 1 LI I dunno, but tried to raid in this game and it's entirely too frustrating....I'll just play other modes. (wish this wasn't the case as I love raiding)

There are already other legendary armor sets, you can just play WvW and grind your legendary set, there are 0 restrictions playing that mode, pvp armor also has no restriction, just grind. So there you go 2 armor sets you can make without radingYou can also read a guide online for what classes are sought after in raids, you dont need an in game tutorial, as far as i know other mmos dont tell you what to pick or not to pick in group content. There are also tons of videos and written guides about raid boss tutorials, popular raid class builds and rotations. Also your first phrase is weird, people dont play the game to get raid armor without doing raids

What kept me playing this game is the legendaries, events/metas, and a lil pvp/wvw. My point was that in most mmos....the "legendary" tier items usually come from raids.In most games to get "legendary" orange colored items would be a hard mode raid. GW2 has allowed you to get legendary items by collections and other means.....So why the change? I was saying that THIS is the reason most people play GW2...to avoid that type of raiding community. I know thats why I play it! I can get cool stuff, play fun content/events....and my BiS items I can get myself.Then Raids came during Hot, so naturally I wanted the weapon, but I didn't want to "raid" again with "raiders"....took a couple year break after that and came back a month ago.So now there is 2 legendary sets? and Now I see legendary accessories?I'm glad there is another way to get armor.....I main Necro and maybe that's my problem? Or anet's problem balancing classes. All should be viable

[CptAurellian.9537]

All classes are viable. It's just the distance to "optimal" that creates problems.

[Cyninja.2954]

@SirBlunticus.4258 said:

@Mister Asdasd.6194 said:

@SirBlunticus.4258 said:Should be attainable w/o going into raids....thats why people play this game. Or Anet needs to make another legendary armor set for other players to get.After raiding in other mmos, if you have no bias... you have to admit GW2 explains nothing on class needs/builds or what have you. ( This is what starts the raiding experience)People pick a toon that sounds cool and kill stuff, that is GW2.... that's why people bought it. Make 2 sets of legendary armor....or provide explanation on classes/roles/abilities (tutorials on builds, let me save builds in 2018 please)....IN GAME!

I maybe have 1 LI I dunno, but tried to raid in this game and it's entirely too frustrating....I'll just play other modes. (wish this wasn't the case as I love raiding)

There are already other legendary armor sets, you can just play WvW and grind your legendary set, there are 0 restrictions playing that mode, pvp armor also has no restriction, just grind. So there you go 2 armor sets you can make without radingYou can also read a guide online for what classes are sought after in raids, you dont need an in game tutorial, as far as i know other mmos dont tell you what to pick or not to pick in group content. There are also tons of videos and written guides about raid boss tutorials, popular raid class builds and rotations. Also your first phrase is weird, people dont play the game to get raid armor without doing raids

What kept me playing this game is the legendaries, events/metas, and a lil pvp/wvw. My point was that in most mmos....the "legendary" tier items usually come from raids.

Yes but in most games the legendary tier (I'll assume you mean WoW since you also use wow's color coding) not all legendarys are equal. The range of orange gear in WoW or fluctuates wildly. Your nice orange item has one item level while some one else is also orange but a way higher item level. Most often the highest level gear requires raiding or sever mythic plus capabilities (in WoW) most of which are way above what GW2 requires player skill wise.

@SirBlunticus.4258 said:In most games to get "legendary" orange colored items would be a hard mode raid. GW2 has allowed you to get legendary items by collections and other means.....So why the change? I was saying that THIS is the reason most people play GW2...to avoid that type of raiding community. I know thats why I play it! I can get cool stuff, play fun content/events....and my BiS items I can get myself.Then Raids came during Hot, so naturally I wanted the weapon, but I didn't want to "raid" again with "raiders"....took a couple year break after that and came back a month ago.So now there is 2 legendary sets? and Now I see legendary accessories?

Legendary weapons are in no way connected to raids. You are mistaken. All T2 weapons are connected to the HoT meta map events and currencies.

The legendary accessory Aurora is connected to the Living World Season 3 and has nothing to do with raids. The precursor for the next legendary ring requires 1 full clear of wing 5 which if you absolutely want it can be purchased from a raiding guild. Not ideal but certainly not impossible since you can factor that cost simply as part of crafting the legendary.

@SirBlunticus.4258 said:I'm glad there is another way to get armor.....I main Necro and maybe that's my problem? Or anet's problem balancing classes. All should be viable

Necros are perfectly fine in raids and normal guilds (not hardcore raiding guilds) that runs raids will certainly not shun you for running one, especially since Scourge is on many bosses a very useful spec. Most old bosses like Vale Guardian become easier with multiple Scourges.

That does require a proper build and basic understanding of your class and rotation though.

[mazut.4296]

We need another way to spend LI. I have another 750 and don't want to craft more then the 3 sets I already own...Maybe more unique skins, both weapon and armors.

[CptAurellian.9537]

I don't think unique skins from LI are a good solution as a sink when LI are already crucial for unique skins that appear to be highly sought after, namely the legy armors. The group of players who are beyond the requirements for those skins is very small, don't forget that. I'd prefer a QoL feature, e.g. an exchange for mystic coins/clovers.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

I cant agree with buying them from a vendor but I wish I had access to earning more per week to speed up the process. I'm working on my 2nd set and it's taking ages.

[Azrielvon.7836]

I'm pretty much doing my legendary armour through PVP route. It's more direct and stressful (subjective). You can look at WvW style if PVE is too hard/stressful for you.

[Cyndercat.7615]

Even if you could buy LI from vendor, whats the point. You still have to kill every w1-4 boss to complete the collection for precursor armor. If you can complete that just farm escort vg and cairn every week and you will have your armor in 1yr

[cyfinity.2078]

no, they should not, its a dumb thought. after doing minimal effort i managed to get over 1k insights super ez.

[GenghisKhan.7842]

No, leave it as it is

In before elitist raider spotted: I have raided only twice with guildies, had fun but don't think I will be pursuing legendary armor anytime soon

[Etheri.5406]

GW2 official forums : bad players complaining about how anet should fix their L2P issues pretending it'll improve the game.There's many ways to improve raids and even how legendary armor is obtained, but this isn't one of them.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Why because you can get legendary armor elsewhere. Just lose your way to a set in pvp or grind your years away in wvw.

[PixelJaeger.2403]

I'm fairly new to raids (30-ish LI) and even i'm against buying them from vendors.I've played my very first raid with a random LFG-group. And it went well. I did my job, i didn't die, i made damage.Now I raid with a really cool raid-guild group that i found by accident. So maybe i'm biased that way. But i prefer my guild over the LFG any time.

"But i want to buy them from the vendor!" Sounds to me like "I don't wat to put effort in the game".You're ok with grinding Achievements/Crafting Materials/Map Currency/whatever, but you're not okay with learning how to play oroptimizing the kitten out of your character? There are pages where you can find builds for every class for every game mode.Read up on them, gear up, learn the mechanics of the raid bosses and practice. Wiping is okay as long as you don't make the same mistakes over and over again.

Nothing will be handed to you on a silver platter!