Is condition damage out of control?

[coro.3176]

@"Etheri.5406" said:I'm not saying it's perfect; I'm saying the balance between condition damage and power damage in zergs is relatively even. Condies themselves are not as obnoxious as they were before as long as you spec appropriately in zergs.

If players choose not to, then obviously they will (and should) die to these conditions. The only condi class is scourge and while scourge is still very, very strong it's strength isn't "too much condition damage" but rather doing too much at once. There are no other oppresive condi classes in zergs whatsoever.

Roaming mirage is an issue and trailblazer / dire is more of a problem than "condi" itself.

Trailblazer/Dire is necessary if the game wants to keep the current system of frequent cleanses and low cover condi (on many builds).

If a full glass berserker soulbeast goes pewpewpew with a quickness-unblockable rapid fire from 1500+ range, you take ~40k damage in the span of less than 2s and die.If a full Trailblazer/Dire ranger goes trap, trap, pewpewpew from melee range, you get a pile of bleeds + poison, maybe immob, take .. not much damage before you cleanse it and turn around counterattack. Fine, so then they pewpewpew you again. Then you cleanse again. Then they pewpewpew some more. Then you cleanse again.

While they are desperately trying to reapply the condi (and probably wondering why they even bother, since they could have just killed you already with power), they need some extra tankiness to survive your counterattack.

The stats only become a problem on certain roaming condi classes (mirage, thief) which both apply condi far more easily and with much less risk than others.

If we want condi to be a purely supplemental form of damage and be more about control and debuff, that's fine - great actually... but some things would need to change to keep the specs up to date - eg. serious buffs to the power coefficients on the current condi weapons like ranger shortbow.

[Hackuuna.4085]

Dire/TB is the issue, not condi itself. ANet should never have given condi the ability to burst while maintaining high survival stats. Condi in general was a mistake from the beginning for a plethora of other reasons but Dire/TB shouldn't be here.

[coro.3176]

@Hackuuna.4085 said:Dire/TB is the issue, not condi itself. ANet should never have given condi the ability to burst while maintaining high survival stats. Condi in general was a mistake from the beginning for a plethora of other reasons but Dire/TB shouldn't be here.

Fine, but if you do that, something else has to change. Either condi burst has to kill as quickly and effectively as power burst (which no one wants), or condi builds need some other advantage. Otherwise, why would anyone ever play eg. condi guard, condi ranger, condi engi, condi revenant, etc.

It's pretty simple.

If condi takes longer to kill than power, and both are equally squishy, then power is better 100% of the time. In order to keep the condi builds viable, they would have to be even more cheesy (like condi thief), or have even more defense (like condi mirage).

[Dayra.7405]

All damage is out of control

[KrHome.1920]

It's not Dire/TB and not conditions. It's a mix of both on certain specs named mirage, daredevil and scourge.

If ANet can balance conditions and tanky condi stats on the other 24 specs, they also can on theese three.

Well... a good balance team could...

[Hackuuna.4085]

@coro.3176 said:

@Hackuuna.4085 said:Dire/TB is the issue, not condi itself. ANet should never have given condi the ability to burst while maintaining high survival stats. Condi in general was a mistake from the beginning for a plethora of other reasons but Dire/TB shouldn't be here.

Fine, but if you do that, something else has to change. Either condi burst has to kill as quickly and effectively as power burst (which no one wants), or condi builds need some other advantage. Otherwise, why would anyone ever play eg. condi guard, condi ranger, condi engi, condi revenant, etc.

It's pretty simple.

If condi takes longer to kill than power, and both are equally squishy, then power is better 100% of the time. In order to keep the condi builds viable, they would have to be even more cheesy (like condi thief), or have even more defense (like condi mirage).

Damage reduction traits/foods/boons and toughness should tip the scales as far as which will kill faster. I know that it's really not true since cleanse and resist exist but then we're getting into more factors that need to be overhauled. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but as it is I realistically only add a few more seconds to my TTK by using condi (unless there are a ton of cleanses/resist involved) than if I use power. In return I get many more seconds of survivability.

[Hesacon.8735]

All my characters are power builds because condis are sort of eh. I was running condi mesmer time to time until they changed some traits and did away with my build.

[Xenash.1245]

Can I just ask why are we comparing condition and power builds as being the same thing damage wise while ignoring the condition that are applies rather heavily by some classes. I agree that condition damage itself isn't the problem but you can't possibly act like some classes being able to hit hard while spamming conditions is in the same vein as power builds.

Also come the fuck on about berserker ranger firing their longbow from down field, that build is about as safe as wet tissue paper. Literally any build acompetent thief takes will destroy that ranger.

[bq pd.2148]

@Xenash.1245 said:Can I just ask why are we comparing condition and power builds as being the same thing damage wise while ignoring the condition that are applies rather heavily by some classes. I agree that condition damage itself isn't the problem but you can't possibly act like some classes being able to hit hard while spamming conditions is in the same vein as power builds.

Also come the kitten on about berserker ranger firing their longbow from down field, that build is about as safe as wet tissue paper. Literally any build acompetent thief takes will destroy that ranger.

well thats what this poll is about isnt it? if condition damage is too strong compared to power damage, cause you allways have to compare it to something to give it a value.both have pro and cons.the good thing about power damage is, as soon as you hit your target all the damage from your skill will apply, aside from some weird procs that effect their trigger aswell (like the protection from rune of durability) you mostly know how much you will hit before you actually hit. the downside is there is alot of direct damage mitigation wich can make significant differences, while i did hit with Deaths Judgement before rework up to 47k on an enemy player wihch is a massive overkill, with the same setup i sometimes just hit barely 10k on a bunker that will heal that up within half a second again. BUT i allways know how much i will hit roughly after 1-2 hits, so i can time my bursts for when my opponents do not have stuff like protection, rite of the great dwarf, bullwark gyro, rise or what ever damage reduction effect on. on my deadeye i might need even several seconds of setup to build malice and then hit in the right moment, but mostly when i hit my burst then my opponent drops.on the other hand on my ele i could equip condi gear and apply within a second 40k possible condi damage that ignores thoughness so basically any build would die to it if afk. BUT you just pop one cleanse and the conditions applied are gone again. ofc now i can bait out cleanses by applying minor damage but you will allways use your cleanses to avoid damage, while for power you might pop protection and i just wait a little with the hit. and then there are 2 more issues , some classes can apply pretty high resistance uptime wich means you are forced to have boonhate on condi builds or avoid people with resistance. and classes that dont run out of cleanses. for example thief has 2 cleanse traits that are pretty strong, one is cleanse on evade ( you can apply condis and stop attacking a while to let em deal damage, better dont have npcs/pets/stupid allies) and one is cleanse on stealth - so you got to get conditions on them and prevent them stealthing wich can in case of a deadeye be nearly impossible.

so while it easy to apply potential damageing conditions, their damage can be easier avoided by a competent player running a proper build or even more so running a good group setup. while power builds may struggle to stay alive and setup their burst, once hit all their damage gets applied wich makes it IMO against good players stronger.

mirage,thief, scourge are the main culprits here not because of their condition damage, but because in smallscale mirage and thief , large scale a scourge can apply conditions without giving much room for counter pressure. mirage and thief condition builds avoid counterpressure with evade uptime and scourge is just rather tanky wich gets to obsene levels when supported as their main weakness is range preassure (pew pew) wich can be mostly negated by the amount of area projectile hate.removal of endurance food ( or changing it into vigor so it doesnt stack with vigor) + maybe diffrent 6th effect of adventurer rune and putting a cap on reflect/absorbs just like there is for CC now, might be a step in the right direction. for example a reflect can only reflect 10 projectiles like a static field can only stun 10 people. then those builds might get more in line. but with a good build right now you shouldnt die 1 on 1 against anyone running trailblaizer/dire as their damage is too easily avoided and their defensive stats are only efficient when combined with active defense, wich is the actual issue here: active defense. would be an issue on power builds too but they can be oneshotted by a greater variety of builds wich makes them feel more 'balanced'

[Xenash.1245]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@"Xenash.1245" said:Can I just ask why are we comparing condition and power builds as being the same thing damage wise while ignoring the condition that are applies rather heavily by some classes. I agree that condition damage itself isn't the problem but you can't possibly act like some classes being able to hit hard while spamming conditions is in the same vein as power builds.

Also come the kitten on about berserker ranger firing their longbow from down field, that build is about as safe as wet tissue paper. Literally any build acompetent thief takes will destroy that ranger.

well thats what this poll is about isnt it? if condition damage is too strong compared to power damage, cause you allways have to compare it to something to give it a value.both have pro and cons.the good thing about power damage is, as soon as you hit your target all the damage from your skill will apply, aside from some weird procs that effect their trigger aswell (like the protection from rune of durability) you mostly know how much you will hit before you actually hit. the downside is there is alot of direct damage mitigation wich can make significant differences, while i did hit with Deaths Judgement before rework up to 47k on an enemy player wihch is a massive overkill, with the same setup i sometimes just hit barely 10k on a bunker that will heal that up within half a second again. BUT i allways know how much i will hit roughly after 1-2 hits, so i can time my bursts for when my opponents do not have stuff like protection, rite of the great dwarf, bullwark gyro, rise or what ever damage reduction effect on. on my deadeye i might need even several seconds of setup to build malice and then hit in the right moment, but mostly when i hit my burst then my opponent drops.on the other hand on my ele i could equip condi gear and apply within a second 40k possible condi damage that ignores thoughness so basically any build would die to it if afk. BUT you just pop one cleanse and the conditions applied are gone again. ofc now i can bait out cleanses by applying minor damage but you will allways use your cleanses to avoid damage, while for power you might pop protection and i just wait a little with the hit. and then there are 2 more issues , some classes can apply pretty high resistance uptime wich means you are forced to have boonhate on condi builds or avoid people with resistance. and classes that dont run out of cleanses. for example thief has 2 cleanse traits that are pretty strong, one is cleanse on evade ( you can apply condis and stop attacking a while to let em deal damage, better dont have npcs/pets/stupid allies) and one is cleanse on stealth - so you got to get conditions on them and prevent them stealthing wich can in case of a deadeye be nearly impossible.

so while it easy to apply potential damageing conditions, their damage can be easier avoided by a competent player running a proper build or even more so running a good group setup. while power builds may struggle to stay alive and setup their burst, once hit all their damage gets applied wich makes it IMO against good players stronger.

mirage,thief, scourge are the main culprits here not because of their condition damage, but because in smallscale mirage and thief , large scale a scourge can apply conditions without giving much room for counter pressure. mirage and thief condition builds avoid counterpressure with evade uptime and scourge is just rather tanky wich gets to obsene levels when supported as their main weakness is range preassure (pew pew) wich can be mostly negated by the amount of area projectile hate.removal of endurance food ( or changing it into vigor so it doesnt stack with vigor) + maybe diffrent 6th effect of adventurer rune and putting a cap on reflect/absorbs just like there is for CC now, might be a step in the right direction. for example a reflect can only reflect 10 projectiles like a static field can only stun 10 people. then those builds might get more in line. but with a good build right now you shouldnt die 1 on 1 against anyone running trailblaizer/dire as their damage is too easily avoided and their defensive stats are only efficient when combined with active defense, wich is the actual issue here: active defense. would be an issue on power builds too but they can be oneshotted by a greater variety of builds wich makes them feel more 'balanced'

I reluctantly agree to an extent at what you're saying here about anyone with a "good" build not being able to be killed by someone running trailblazer/dire solo, even though I do genuinely believe some people make it sounds like it's a cake wake to dodge what some condition builds can do what in sincerely isn't depending on the build. I guess the problem myself and other have with conditions isn't that they're op but as you were saying the application the devs gave certain classes to utilize them making them seem oppressive.

I'm kind of tired now and this is probably going to sound dumb but I don't think as many people would have a problem with the classes that can "oppressively" apply conditions now if match ups didn't come down to almost honestly a rock, paper, scissors type match up. If the devs would give us some form of counter builds that would create something more then what people usually say about countering scourges for example "just use ranged" it would probably make WvW a lot more fun with a lot more variety of classes.

This possibly came out rather stupidly, since I'm probably gonna pass out here in a few minutes.

[Apolo.5942]

People tend to not realize that the Argument:

-"You dont bring enough condi cleanse"

Is in it self evidence that condi is out of control and meta warping.

This is literally saying, your build has to revolve around cleansing conditions, that is the very definition of meta warping.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@"Apolo.5942" said:People tend to not realize that the Argument:

-"You dont bring enough condi cleanse"

Is in it self evidence that condi is out of control and meta warping.

This is literally saying, your build has to revolve around cleansing conditions, that is the very definition of meta warping.The same can be said for power. Look at how many traits and abilities are devoted to active defence in general regardless of damage type.The blanket statement is " I didn't bring enough active defence".

There is a clear double standard when it comes to things it seems.For some reason when a power build is op its that build but when a condi build is over tuned the entire damage type is at fault.For some reason getting spiked by a bunch of skills and going down in an instant is ok but getting spiked by a bunch of skills and dying 3~5+s later is a problem.For some reason running out of/ not bringing enough active defence against power is fine but running out of/not bringing enough active defence / cleanse for condi is outrageous.

[Xenash.1245]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:People tend to not realize that the Argument:

-"You dont bring enough condi cleanse"

Is in it self evidence that condi is out of control and meta warping.

This is literally saying, your build has to revolve around cleansing conditions, that is the very definition of meta warping.The same can be said for power. Look at how many traits and abilities are devoted to active defence in general regardless of damage type.The blanket statement is " I didn't bring enough active defence".

There is a clear double standard when it comes to things it seems.For some reason when a power build is op its that build but when a condi build is over tuned the entire damage type is at fault.For some reason getting spiked by a bunch of skills and going down in an instant is ok but getting spiked by a bunch of skills and dying 3~5+s later is a problem.For some reason running out of/ not bringing enough active defence against power is fine but running out of/not bringing enough active defence / cleanse for condi is outrageous.

I don't think it's really compare power and conditions here in the same vein since there's not nearly as many condition cleanses for some classes as there are ways to negate power type damage for most of the classes. This personal also didn't say anything about their opinion on the state of certain power builds so it's not really fair to start reaching out like that, personally I dislike certain power builds as much as I dislike certain condi builds.

This isn't some weird take a side and stick to that side type of discussion, it's just here for people to talk about how they feel conditions are used in the current state of the game. And personally I do believe certain classes are able to abuse them so hard that they seem op to an extent, and yes the same could be said about a few power builds.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Xenash.1245 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:People tend to not realize that the Argument:

-"You dont bring enough condi cleanse"

Is in it self evidence that condi is out of control and meta warping.

This is literally saying, your build has to revolve around cleansing conditions, that is the very definition of meta warping.The same can be said for power. Look at how many traits and abilities are devoted to active defence in general regardless of damage type.The blanket statement is " I didn't bring enough active defence".

There is a clear double standard when it comes to things it seems.For some reason when a power build is op its that build but when a condi build is over tuned the entire damage type is at fault.For some reason getting spiked by a bunch of skills and going down in an instant is ok but getting spiked by a bunch of skills and dying 3~5+s later is a problem.For some reason running out of/ not bringing enough active defence against power is fine but running out of/not bringing enough active defence / cleanse for condi is outrageous.

I don't think it's really compare power and conditions here in the same vein since there's not nearly as many condition cleanses for some classes as there are ways to negate power type damage for most of the classes. This personal also didn't say anything about their opinion on the state of certain power builds so it's not really fair to start reaching out like that, personally I dislike certain power builds as much as I dislike certain condi builds.

This isn't some weird take a side and stick to that side type of discussion, it's just here for people to talk about how they feel conditions are used in the current state of the game. And personally I do believe certain classes are able to abuse them so hard that they seem op to an extent, and yes the same could be said about a few power builds.

I may have quoted them but it's not a direct reply. It's the premise of the argument as a whole that their post represents.

Historically in almost every case where a condition build has been over tuned the entire damage type is at fault and needs gutting. This is almost never the case for power builds. Somehow saying mirage/theif/scourge are overturned is synonymous to conditions as a whole being op.

Every time this argument is brought up the statement I never have enough cleanse to remove all conditions is brought up like people expect to be immune. Same with I need to take cleanse etc etc yet never thinking twice about taking active mitigation for power damage. Or that when they use a clear skill they end up with more conditions as if somehow using a condi clear skill should tell the enemy to stop attacking you for a bit and give you a breather since they aren't trying to kill you.

If people have problems with specific condition builds they should specifically talk a out those since not all condi , or power builds for that matter, are born equal and trying to cover them with a blanket argument, i.e are conditions are out of control, doesn't work at all imho.

[MrGhosty.4296]

I would have preferred an "other" option for a better rounded poll. I've never been a competent mesmer so while I hate dealing with them sometimes I've not chalked it up to "condi" being the problem. As for Ele, it seems the ones that can do the most damage pay that by being extremely squishy so again, that feels pretty fair.

I would kind of like to see a limit to the amount of shades that can be brought to bear in a blob fight, rather than nerfing condis altogether. Any blob that runs scourge heavy can greatly control the field and when the field is covered in effects constantly eating you in addition to a bunch of other effects that put your skills on cooldown/stun/ etc you melt in seconds.

I will be the first to readily admit that I'm not a pro, but that's the problem as I see it. If there were only X amount of shades allowed in an area at one time, and additional shades overwriting ones on the field I think the condi would overall feel less overwhelming without removing the value of those classes. The other issue that exacerbates this is sadly down to queue times. If this is a game of rock,paper, scissors the game is kind of broken if you only ever have access to rock and the enemy is a paper blob. If we had a way to swap out characters without losing our spot on the server there could be some genuine class changes to adapt.

Overall though, I don't believe condi is out of control, it's just scarier than power damage because it does all this funny stuff to your screen and can actively impair you being able to fight back. I think it seems overpowered because with Power dmg it seems much easier to figure out where you're going wrong and self correct, whereas I've found that with condi a lot of this stuff isn't made terribly clear. Neither of this is an issue with a dedicated guild to ask questions of, but when you're relying on the pugs to carry some of the burden and they aren't on comms/or listening properly then these issues need to be super easy to figure out on their own which condi doesn't seem to do very well.

[DrDivine.5378]

This is where it gets kinda tricky, a lot of condi builds do excellent damage, but a lot of power builds have the potential to kill people in a matter of seconds (even faster sometimes) as well.

I think the biggest difference is input, with conditions, you kinda just spam them and you often get good results. With power? Sometimes if you count auto attack, but it mostly requires utility combinations and timing to pull off correctly. I think condition builds will always be easier to play due to their nature, how to balance them I'm not sure. The only vague answer is making them easier to play.

A lot of condi builds often can build good survivability, but a lot of power classes have to build more glassy, so even though stats are similar, how you're able to use them is a different story.

[Forty Keks.9620]

i voted yes only because of condi mesmer, scourge, and condi thief. those three are absolutely out of control. however, shortbow rev is USELESS because it's condi, condi engineer is nonexistent, longbow warrior isn't viable, and shortbow ranger is pretty bad. i think what needs to happen is the condi values for those classes mentioned need to be raised heavily. and the thief, mes, and necros need to be nerfed heavily.

TL;DR condi is only out of control on 3 specs.

[SWI.4127]

Honestly condis aren't too bad anymore. But that may just be because Firebrand is ridiculously good at clearing them.

[Straegen.2938]

Small scale is about 50/50 with some builds running both. Large scale certainly has a Scourge condi problem.

[Etheri.5406]

@"Apolo.5942" said:People tend to not realize that the Argument:

-"You dont bring enough condi cleanse"

Is in it self evidence that condi is out of control and meta warping.

This is literally saying, your build has to revolve around cleansing conditions, that is the very definition of meta warping.

So having to bring a stunbreak means stuns are OP?Having to bring heals and protection to survive power burst means power is OP?

Healthy gameplay requires counters. The existence of condi cleanse doesn't make condi OP, neither does the statement that players don't bring enough of it. This is GW2 after all, players would rather whine about condi while playing meme builds than spec appropriately and live just fine.

[Seed.5467]

In it´s current state Conditions are OP because every class has many sources to apply conditions(actively or passively). I think if every class get about 30% reduction on skills and traits(i.e sources that applying conditions actively or passively) would help a lot.

[Straegen.2938]

@Seed.5467 said:In it´s current state Conditions are OP because every class has many sources to apply conditions(actively or passively). I think if every class get about 30% reduction on skills and traits(i.e sources that applying conditions actively or passively) would help a lot.

Do condi Mirage in small scale need a nerf, yes. Do condi Scourges in large scale need a nerf, yes. Outside of those builds, the meta is pretty decent with a nice mix of power and condi builds running around.