[Suggestion] Gear normalization in WvW/EOTM with the alliance rework

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@rng.1024 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@rng.1024 said:Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out:

3 stat gear

• Major stat caps at 1200
• Minor stat caps at 900
  4 stat gear
• Major stat caps at 1050
• Minor stat caps at 560
  7 stat gear (celestial)
• Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values

Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing.

Benefits:

• You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP
• You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP
• Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge)
• PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there
• Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future
• We have upscale so the tech is already there

This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will.

Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently.

yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you

id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be

What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same.

exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper

not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential

if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats

Let me explain:

1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear.
2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics.

So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money.

And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more.

you still didnt get what i said.

i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo.i already said that exotics are cheap af.and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of pointsi determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from thatpve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no differencethis whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy pplive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve

I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again:The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same.

And your argument for farming exotic gear:

• You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today
• You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually)
• You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary.

It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended.

because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it

do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots

Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today.

Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear.

Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy...

The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear.Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety.

It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion.

[Simonoly.4352]

I've spent loads of gold on gearing up for WvW over the past 6 years, but if Anet decided to normalise gear values of whatever in some way I would be absolutely on board with that. All that gold I spent is already gone and the effort into crafting stuff has paid off as I've been using and enjoying it now....so no buyers remorse from me. If I never had to go through the effort I currently have to do to change my build because Anet made gearing up in WvW as similarly easy as PvP (but not the same system obviously) I would be most happy.

[Sovereign.1093]

mmm...

we need to test the alliance system.

wow tests bfa.

[phs.6089]

Dear gosh, you can run in WvW zergs being lv 60 in green gear. Trick is not to fall behind. That is all. Equalizing WvW gear will cause so much harm to game and economy, this game will roll downhill.

[TheBravery.9615]

GIve me a stat combination with only power and ferocity and i'll buy your offer.

[Infusion.7149]

You argument is that gear is too hard to get but we have reward tracks and repairs cost nothing now.

If anything I would think sigil of concentration (33% boon duration = 495 concentration ; this ought to be closer to +175 or +250 which is ~12-15%) + rune of durability (20% boon duration = 200 concentration on top of 175 toughness and 125 vitality already) would have been hit with nerfs by now. Leadership runes are sort of kept in check by the much smaller defensive boost.

I'd rather Rune of Resistance have resistance.

You can use agony infusions in WvW , it just means you don't have the damage boost vs lords / guards.

[rng.1024]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"rng.1024" said:I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them?Sorry, that's not how it works. You want ANet to spend effort to change things. Therefore it's up to you to establish that there's an issue and that your suggestion is the best (or at least an effective) solution to it.

It's assumed by pro-normalization group that stats matter a lot. That's why it's sufficient to point out that stats don't matter as much as is claimed. Counter arguments have given lots of examples of how stats aren't a fundamental problem. It is not enough to counter that by claiming that people are "fighting so hard to keep them." People aren't fighting at all to "keep them" — they are pointing out that it means that the proposal isn't necessary at all.

I confess that I'm not moved by the "wasted effort" argument. If a massive change to the game would fundamentally change the game mode, I'd say, bring it on. Let's figure out how to address the transition in a way so it's not so painful that it drives people a way.

However, in this case, the pro-normalization still haven't started with the basics: what exactly is the issue? Of all things in WvW, why would normalizing stats be important enough to devote all these resources? How would it change zerg v zerg, organized squad combat, defense of objectives, havoc, roaming? Would those changes make it more fun? How much would they change things?

And I still don't see it: people aren't losing fights because one side is in ascended and the other is in exotics. Skill, builds, tactics, strategies, numbers... all of that matters more.

My angle all along was to make the game easier to balance and to reign in the outliers in terms of build-gear synergy. I also proposed what I believed to be the easiest possible way to do this. Whether anet listens or not isn't up to me, as I was chiming in on the topic trying to contribute to the OP's opinion because I don't really see the harm of such a change, but felt the options presented were a little lacking. Which is what I have been adressing most of the time.

It seems you may have rushed a little through this tread, as my previous posts reveal me to be of the opinion that stats don't make much of a difference. Stats alone aren't going to fix anything, never claimed that. What non-normalization players are fighting for is to keep their ascended stat bonuses. As have already been explained the benefit of ascended gear would be the same, but we would cap the theoretical maximums lower than they are today making f.ex power mirage need that extra hit to down you - judging by this forum alot of people are having trouble with that. Same goes for trailblazer scourges, good ones would still wreck you but we shouldn't encourage gameplay where one mistake is enough to kill you - we already have zerker gear for that. And again if you are a good player what exactly is the harm in lowering overall damage by 5%?

I still think we should preserve the effort players have already invested, simply because you should be rewarded for playing the mode. Especially now that we finally have real options to obtain those through pure WvW. My only gripe is we shouldn't let this advantage become too big - lowering theoretical maximums and moving stats into infusions would give an easy way to control this.

As I mentioned in a previous post the issues lie in the compounding of stats through traits (wordly impact soulbeast, weaver elements of rage pre nerf, and so forth). This plus full ascended + food + infusions + utility + traits are what causes certain professions to have access to overperforming builds in WvW. I'm suggesting that instead of nerfing those professions down the road we could normalize gear and that way eliminate the heaviest contributing factors. (If this isn't dev incentive, I don't know what is tbh)

For the majority of the population this change will have no effect. But it will be a positive one for those that currently struggle to counter oneshot mechanics, and good players won't be fazed in the least. The only ones who will be negatively impacted are those that run into fights simply trying to hit all buttons and hoping their power/condi will down someone before they go down themselves. They will do less damage and go down faster. The change is aimed at less carrying by numbers - not everyone will agree that's a thing so make of it what you will.

[rng.1024]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@rng.1024 said:Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out:

3 stat gear

• Major stat caps at 1200
• Minor stat caps at 900
  4 stat gear
• Major stat caps at 1050
• Minor stat caps at 560
  7 stat gear (celestial)
• Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values

Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing.

Benefits:

• You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP
• You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP
• Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge)
• PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there
• Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future
• We have upscale so the tech is already there

This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will.

Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently.

yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you

id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be

What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same.

exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper

not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential

if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats

Let me explain:

1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear.
2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics.

So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money.

And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more.

you still didnt get what i said.

i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo.i already said that exotics are cheap af.and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of pointsi determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from thatpve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no differencethis whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy pplive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve

I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again:The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same.

And your argument for farming exotic gear:

• You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today
• You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually)
• You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary.

It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended.

because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it

do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots

Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today.

Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear.

Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy...

The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear.Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety.

It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion.

in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more.

Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions.

As for cost effective:Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework?OrShould they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players?

Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:Correction: they have always attempted it, they had trouble succeeding with it because, worlds, by their very nature, aren't interchangeable, so people flocked to some, & not to others.Also because people have actively found ways to weasel around everything Anet tried to do and stack the servers in spite of them.

[ILoveMonotony.1479]

I have and I will always fully support suggestions that promote a healthier PvP environment. I'd gladly ditch my 7 ascended armor sets, 30ish ascended weapons, countless ascended trinkets and 3 legendary weapons if in return I could have a better balanced and more challenging PvP environment.

Bad elite specialisation design is without a shadow of a doubt the major culprit but the overpowering gear options (ranging from power creeped ascended quality armor and weapons to questionnable rune and sigil choices) certainly exacerbate the horrible state WvW is in.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

"Working hard to get ascended". lulIt's soooooo hard to get ascended, right?

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@rng.1024 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@rng.1024 said:I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them?Sorry, that's not how it works. You want ANet to spend effort to change things. Therefore it's up to you to establish that there's an issue and that your suggestion is the best (or at least an effective) solution to it.

My angle all along was to make the game easier to balance and to reign in the outliers in terms of build-gear synergy.Again, that presumes that stats differentials matter in terms of balancing the game or even the game mode and that there are outliers.

I also proposed what I believed to be the easiest possible way to do this.It's still a huge change to the system, which still seems unneeded.

Whether anet listens or not isn't up to me, as I was chiming in on the topic trying to contribute to the OP's opinion because I don't really see the harm of such a change, but felt the options presented were a little lacking. Which is what I have been adressing most of the time."I don't see the harm" isn't sufficient to devote a lot of resources.

It seems you may have rushed a little through this tread, as my previous posts reveal me to be of the opinion that stats don't make much of a difference. Stats alone aren't going to fix anything, never claimed that.On the contrary, I was responding to your specific criticism. You wrote, "why are you fighting to hard to keep them?" My point remains: the burden is on those in favor of a change to justify it as worth doing.

What was said elsewhere in the thread doesn't mean that motivations matter.

What non-normalization players are fighting for is to keep their ascended stat bonuses.Their motivations aren't relevant. What matters is whether stats matter that much that there's a major problem for the game mode. If yes, then the game should change and ANet should figure out how to make the transition less painful. And if not, then it's moot.

But it will be a positive one for those that currently struggle to counter oneshot mechanics, and good players won't be fazed in the least. The only ones who will be negatively impacted are those that run into fights simply trying to hit all buttons and hoping their power/condi will down someone before they go down themselves. They will do less damage and go down faster. The change is aimed at less carrying by numbers - not everyone will agree that's a thing so make of it what you will.

Now, that's the first time I've seen a coherent argument as to why stats might matter. But even here, the issue isn't stats in & of themselves. The issues are whether it should be possible to one-shot opponents and whether 'balancing' that includes worrying about what happens when the best-geared & most skilled target the least-geared & least skilled. If that's an issue for the game (and, as you say, not everyone agrees), then there are a lot more things on the table than just stats.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@rng.1024 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@rng.1024 said:Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out:

3 stat gear

• Major stat caps at 1200
• Minor stat caps at 900
  4 stat gear
• Major stat caps at 1050
• Minor stat caps at 560
  7 stat gear (celestial)
• Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values

Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing.

Benefits:

• You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP
• You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP
• Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge)
• PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there
• Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future
• We have upscale so the tech is already there

This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will.

Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently.

yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you

id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be

What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same.

exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper

not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential

if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats

Let me explain:

1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear.
2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics.

So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money.

And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more.

you still didnt get what i said.

i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo.i already said that exotics are cheap af.and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of pointsi determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from thatpve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no differencethis whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy pplive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve

I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again:The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same.

And your argument for farming exotic gear:

• You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today
• You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually)
• You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary.

It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended.

because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it

do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots

Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today.

Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear.

Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy...

The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear.Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety.

It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion.

in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more.

Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions.

As for cost effective:Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework?OrShould they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players?

Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base.

Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything...

Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics....

[Shagaliscious.6281]

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@rng.1024 said:Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out:

3 stat gear

• Major stat caps at 1200
• Minor stat caps at 900
  4 stat gear
• Major stat caps at 1050
• Minor stat caps at 560
  7 stat gear (celestial)
• Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values

Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing.

Benefits:

• You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP
• You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP
• Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge)
• PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there
• Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future
• We have upscale so the tech is already there

This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will.

Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently.

yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you

id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be

What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same.

exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper

not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential

if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats

Let me explain:

1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear.
2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics.

So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money.

And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more.

you still didnt get what i said.

i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo.i already said that exotics are cheap af.and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of pointsi determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from thatpve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no differencethis whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy pplive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve

I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again:The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same.

And your argument for farming exotic gear:

• You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today
• You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually)
• You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary.

It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended.

because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it

do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots

Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today.

Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear.

So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything?

[GwAddict.9746]

@borgs.6103 said:So... I have 9 ascended equipment sets, each with their corresponding trinkets and infusions just for WvW. If your system gets implemented, all the time and effort I invested in making those gear will be all for nothing. I'm not using them in PVE because I already have pve gear as well. Do I just throw them away?

And how will that affect your further gameplay in WvW? You'll have the added flexibility to change build fully anytime.

@"BlueMelody.6398" said:The OP keeps dismissing the concerns of those who have put time and effort into wvw (including gearing up) as a "minor" concern compared to the "needs" of the people who don't want to put that time and effort into the mode. This isn't about balance, it's about someone not wanting to put the same level of effort into the game that the people who have come before him have.

Any proposal that has the net effect of rendering the effort of the long-time vets basically meaningless so that those new to the mode can instantly and without effort be at the same level (in this case, gearwise) is something I will oppose 100%.

This is not a "minor" issue regardless of what the OP wants to claim.

It's indeed a minor concern because it won't take away anything but will level the playing field. None of your abilities, your power isn't gona be taken away. The only effort that should be put it in any PvP mode is personal skill aka getting good yourself, not with a mandatory gear grind to have the stat edge. Keep the gear treadmill in PvE because other people running around in better gear doesn't have the slightest impact to the undergeared one specially with downscaling.

[Ashen.2907]

Seems like a solution in search of a problem to me.

[Shagaliscious.6281]

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@borgs.6103 said:So... I have 9 ascended equipment sets, each with their corresponding trinkets and infusions just for WvW. If your system gets implemented, all the time and effort I invested in making those gear will be all for nothing. I'm not using them in PVE because I already have pve gear as well. Do I just throw them away?

And how will that affect your further gameplay in WvW? You'll have the added flexibility to change build fully anytime.

Well, he certainly has less gold because of it. But basically what you are wanting to do is to devalue gear that players have spent quite a lot of time and gold on specifically for WVW. With what you are proposing, it would be more cost effective to just buy extra inventory bags from the gem store, and extra exotic sets, over making legendary armor, way more cost effective. So, with that said, what's your incentive to make legendary armor? The skins aren't even that good, and for the shiny legendary chest armor, you need to be WVW level 2,000.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@borgs.6103 said:So... I have 9 ascended equipment sets, each with their corresponding trinkets and infusions just for WvW. If your system gets implemented, all the time and effort I invested in making those gear will be all for nothing. I'm not using them in PVE because I already have pve gear as well. Do I just throw them away?

And how will that affect your further gameplay in WvW? You'll have the added flexibility to change build fully anytime.

@"BlueMelody.6398" said:The OP keeps dismissing the concerns of those who have put time and effort into wvw (including gearing up) as a "minor" concern compared to the "needs" of the people who don't want to put that time and effort into the mode. This isn't about balance, it's about someone not wanting to put the same level of effort into the game that the people who have come before him have.

Any proposal that has the net effect of rendering the effort of the long-time vets basically meaningless so that those new to the mode can instantly and without effort be at the same level (in this case, gearwise) is something I will oppose 100%.

This is not a "minor" issue regardless of what the OP wants to claim.

It's indeed a minor concern because it won't take away anything but will level the playing field. None of your abilities, your power isn't gona be taken away. The only effort that should be put it in any PvP mode is personal skill aka getting good yourself, not with a mandatory gear grind to have the stat edge. Keep the gear treadmill in PvE because other people running around in better gear doesn't have the slightest impact to the undergeared one specially with downscaling.

Again as simply as possible, the suggestion only promotes selfishness and laziness, and will disenfranchise the vast majority of players that put in effort to the gamemode and will completely invalidate their time and effort, but I know certain people don’t care about other players time and effort and only want things handed to them with no effort required. Don’t try to hide this behind the premise of balance/fairness it’s crystal clear that it comes down to not wanting to put effort in to get the same results as the vast majority that did put the effort in.

WvW is not sPvP so it shouldn’t be standardized and it has been solely intended to be played with the gear provided etc. anyone that has played this game for any real amount of time realizes this. There’s a reason it’s not called sWvW.

[GwAddict.9746]

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@borgs.6103 said:So... I have 9 ascended equipment sets, each with their corresponding trinkets and infusions just for WvW. If your system gets implemented, all the time and effort I invested in making those gear will be all for nothing. I'm not using them in PVE because I already have pve gear as well. Do I just throw them away?

And how will that affect your further gameplay in WvW? You'll have the added flexibility to change build fully anytime.

Well, he certainly has less gold because of it. But basically what you are wanting to do is to devalue gear that players have spent quite a lot of time and gold on specifically for WVW. With what you are proposing, it would be more cost effective to just buy extra inventory bags from the gem store, and extra exotic sets, over making legendary armor, way more cost effective. So, with that said, what's your incentive to make legendary armor? The skins aren't even that good, and for the shiny legendary chest armor, you need to be WVW level 2,000.

It'll retain its BiS gear status in PvE. Whether he does PvE in this context isn't relevant since they will not become totally obsolete in the game. If we go by option one, you won't even have to have ready made exotic gear. With option 2, it'll be exactly like how it is right now except power will be downscaled to exotic level. Ascended will have the added ability to be able to change stat with help of mystic forge (reduced cost) as opposed to exotic set which needs to be crafted (higher cost).

With option 2, making legendary armor will retain it's stat/rune swapping ability value and with option 1 it'll matter in PvE as mentioned. We are also given the option to acquire legendary armor in PvP that looks exactly as the ascended version and gear doesn't matter there. In the end it became just another method to acquire it to by playing the game mode you prefer.

[Shagaliscious.6281]

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@borgs.6103 said:So... I have 9 ascended equipment sets, each with their corresponding trinkets and infusions just for WvW. If your system gets implemented, all the time and effort I invested in making those gear will be all for nothing. I'm not using them in PVE because I already have pve gear as well. Do I just throw them away?

And how will that affect your further gameplay in WvW? You'll have the added flexibility to change build fully anytime.

Well, he certainly has less gold because of it. But basically what you are wanting to do is to devalue gear that players have spent quite a lot of time and gold on specifically for WVW. With what you are proposing, it would be more cost effective to just buy extra inventory bags from the gem store, and extra exotic sets, over making legendary armor, way more cost effective. So, with that said, what's your incentive to make legendary armor? The skins aren't even that good, and for the shiny legendary chest armor, you need to be WVW level 2,000.

It'll retain its BiS gear status in PvE. Whether he does PvE in this context isn't relevant since they will

not

become totally obsolete in the game. If we go by option one, you won't even have to have ready made exotic gear. With

option 2

, it'll be exactly like how it is right now except power will be downscaled to exotic level. Ascended will have the added ability to be able to change stat with help of mystic forge (reduced cost) as opposed to exotic set which needs to be crafted (higher cost).

With

option 2

, making legendary armor will retain it's stat/rune swapping ability value and with

option 1

it'll matter in PvE as mentioned. We are also given the option to acquire legendary armor in PvP that looks exactly as the ascended version and gear doesn't matter there. In the end it became

just another

method to acquire it to by playing the game mode you prefer.

People that make PVP legendary armor obviously do PVE enough to want to make legendary armor, otherwise like you said, it would be pointless. LOTS of people that make WVW legendary armor only do WVW, and they would be more than upset with this change, because you could convert gold to gems to buy inventory space, craft, lets say, 5 exotic armor sets, and not even come close to a fraction of the cost of legendary armor. Would probably be cheaper than making ascended armor too.

[Tiny Doom.4380]

WvW isn't PvP. It's PvPvE. That's why it uses PvE gear and stats, somewhat tweaked. Mistake is assuming it's a pure PvP mode, which it isn't, never has been and was never intended to be.

[rng.1024]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@rng.1024 said:I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them?Sorry, that's not how it works. You want ANet to spend effort to change things. Therefore it's up to you to establish that there's an issue and that your suggestion is the best (or at least an effective) solution to it.

My angle all along was to make the game easier to balance and to reign in the outliers in terms of build-gear synergy.Again, that presumes that stats differentials matter in terms of balancing the game or even the game mode and that there are outliers.

I also proposed what I believed to be the easiest possible way to do this.It's still a huge change to the system, which still seems unneeded.

Whether anet listens or not isn't up to me, as I was chiming in on the topic trying to contribute to the OP's opinion because I don't really see the harm of such a change, but felt the options presented were a little lacking. Which is what I have been adressing most of the time."I don't see the harm" isn't sufficient to devote a lot of resources.

It seems you may have rushed a little through this tread, as my previous posts reveal me to be of the opinion that stats don't make much of a difference. Stats alone aren't going to fix anything, never claimed that.On the contrary, I was responding to your specific criticism. You wrote, "why are you fighting to hard to keep them?" My point remains: the burden is on those in favor of a change to justify it as worth doing.

What was said elsewhere in the thread doesn't mean that motivations matter.

What non-normalization players are fighting for is to keep their ascended stat bonuses.Their motivations aren't relevant. What matters is whether stats matter that much that there's a major problem for the game mode. If yes, then the game should change and ANet should figure out how to make the transition less painful. And if not, then it's moot.

But it will be a positive one for those that currently struggle to counter oneshot mechanics, and good players won't be fazed in the least. The only ones who will be negatively impacted are those that run into fights simply trying to hit all buttons and hoping their power/condi will down someone before they go down themselves. They will do less damage and go down faster. The change is aimed at less carrying by numbers - not everyone will agree that's a thing so make of it what you will.

Now, that's the first time I've seen a coherent argument as to why stats might matter. But even here, the issue isn't stats in & of themselves. The issues are whether it should be possible to one-shot opponents and whether 'balancing' that includes worrying about what happens when the best-geared & most skilled target the least-geared & least skilled. If that's an issue for the game (and, as you say, not everyone agrees), then there are a lot more things on the table than just stats.

Are you suggesting every spec and gear combo are perfectly balanced? Because if not that's more than enough reason for the change seeing as anet monitors and make changes where they see fit - so it's obvious they want some kind of balance even in WvW. If this would further that goal in the future and not require too much effort (which is why I presented this solution), then why wouldn't they do it? I do not claim to know the concerns and goals of the devs, so my opinion is irrelevant if they don't feel it's an issue - and I'm sorry if it came off as I expected them to listen, I simply wanted to propose a solution to those that are in favor of stat normalization that requires low effort, few changes and that give the desired outcome.

Like you say it's moot if anet doesn't agree. I don't even expect you to feel the change is necessary, because for me it also makes no difference so I get where you are coming from. But for others it could, and therefore as the unaffected party we have the responsibility to take a stance on the matter. I'm not doing this to make the life of the new player in exotic gear easier and inversely nerf the old player in ascended. I'm doing this for the sake of an enjoyable gamemode for both of them, where both feel their skill improvement and gear investment matter, where skill can outclass superior gear and your effort in gear might save your life from that oneshot. I want both approaches to matter, as there will always be people in both camps when it comes to this. But if the disparity becomes too high there will be one of the two that will sit with a massive advantage (which is usually the cause of nerfs) - and everything I have contributed has been towards minimizing exactly this.

[rng.1024]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@rng.1024 said:Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out:

3 stat gear

• Major stat caps at 1200
• Minor stat caps at 900
  4 stat gear
• Major stat caps at 1050
• Minor stat caps at 560
  7 stat gear (celestial)
• Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values

Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing.

Benefits:

• You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP
• You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP
• Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge)
• PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there
• Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future
• We have upscale so the tech is already there

This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will.

Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently.

yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you

id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be

What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same.

exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper

not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential

if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats

Let me explain:

1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear.
2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics.

So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money.

And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more.

you still didnt get what i said.

i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo.i already said that exotics are cheap af.and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of pointsi determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from thatpve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no differencethis whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy pplive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve

I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again:The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same.

And your argument for farming exotic gear:

• You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today
• You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually)
• You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary.

It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended.

because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it

do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots

Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today.

Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear.

Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy...

The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear.Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety.

It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion.

in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more.

Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions.

As for cost effective:Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework?OrShould they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players?

Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base.

Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything...

Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics....

That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece.

The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you?

[rng.1024]

@Shagaliscious.6281 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@rng.1024 said:Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out:

3 stat gear

• Major stat caps at 1200
• Minor stat caps at 900
  4 stat gear
• Major stat caps at 1050
• Minor stat caps at 560
  7 stat gear (celestial)
• Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values

Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing.

Benefits:

• You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP
• You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP
• Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge)
• PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there
• Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future
• We have upscale so the tech is already there

This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will.

Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently.

yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you

id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be

What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same.

exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper

not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential

if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats

Let me explain:

1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear.
2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics.

So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money.

And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more.

you still didnt get what i said.

i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo.i already said that exotics are cheap af.and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of pointsi determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from thatpve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no differencethis whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy pplive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve

I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again:The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same.

And your argument for farming exotic gear:

• You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today
• You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually)
• You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary.

It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended.

because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it

do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots

Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today.

Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear.

So you want WVW to be an equal ground, yet you talk about giving people an edge who have ascended armor? So why even change anything?

I don't want it to be an equal ground. I simply want the extremes a little bit closer to eachother, nothing more. I'm voting to change because if you are a good player it won't really affect you. And I want everyone to have an equal shot at becoming a good player.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@rng.1024 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@GwAddict.9746 said:

@rng.1024 said:Actually capping gear contributed stats isn't the worst idea. Hear me out:

3 stat gear

• Major stat caps at 1200
• Minor stat caps at 900
  4 stat gear
• Major stat caps at 1050
• Minor stat caps at 560
  7 stat gear (celestial)
• Just give it some love in this meta already, cap it at ascended values

Now this should apply to every individual armor piece you are wearing.

Benefits:

• You can still mix and match gear unlike PvP
• You keep every rune/sigil combo unlike PvP
• Food, utilities, infusions, skills and traits allow you to exceed the gear cap (gives ascended gear and WvW infusions still an edge)
• PvE power remains untouched as you keep ascended values there
• Allows the dev team to revert some skillsplits for consistency across gamemodes and do across the board changes in the future
• We have upscale so the tech is already there

This is essentially the second option in the original post. Gears you equip will still have value but their power will be decreased to exotic level, so ascended won't have that advantage along with infusions. Also this won't devalue the legendary armor because you can still swap stats/runes at will.

Not my preferred choice but it's still way better than what we have currently.

yes this would still greatly devalue my legy stuff because i could just get everything i wanna try out in exotics basically for free, because exotics are so easy to get its thrown at you

id want all my money refunded that i had to pump into my legy armor, which was like 1,5k gold, you know how many exotic sets i could get with that? more than all my inventorys could hold and more builds there will probably ever be

What are you talking about? You would get the exotics at the same rate you do today, and the leggy armor would require exactly the same.

exactly, id get the exotic basically for free (exotics are sooo easy to get) and rendering legendary stuff completely useless since they have the same stat value as those exotics i get thrown at me. why would i buy myself legendary gear? pls tell me, it would have no value at all since i could just get the exotics much cheaper

not sure what about that you dont understand, right now ascended is slightly better than exotic, making it very costly to try out new builds in full ascended, hence why its valuable to get legendary gear, because you can change stats and runes and thus try out builds at their full potential

if legendary and ascended had the same stats as exotics there wouldnt be any need to craft ascended gear. and since i can get exotics that easy i can just get a new set instead of an expensive legendary where i can change stats

Let me explain:

1. Ascended armor would still allow you to infuse them (and the weapon would increase your damage range), for a 90 point attribute bonus. This you wouldn't be able to get in exotic gear.
2. Legendary gear would still have the added benefit of being able to change stats when out of combat. This would also not be possible with regular ascended or exotics.

So you are arguing the point that the only reason you had for crafting legendary gear, over exotics even, was to get that 5% increase in attributes? If we lowered all attribute values as per my suggestion (today ascended gear yield 1381 maximum to a top stat, meaning todays infusions benefit you (90/1381) 6,5%. With the lower maximum they would yield (90/1200) 7,5% benefit. Meaning you would lose the last 4 percent, but the entire idea was based around normalizing stats, already it is implicit the extremes are the ones that will have to make sacrifices. This way you would actually be rewarded more for putting in the effort of crafting ascended stuff. And if those 5% were your only reason why didn't you just craft regular ascended instead? Could have saved you alot of money.

And the reason I didn't get your argument is that you already can get exotics cheap and use them to try out your builds. It's still costly to try them in ascended. And it's still valuable to get legendary gear for that reason. My suggestion merely means an overall lowering of gears "full potential" across the board, and indirectly increase the discrepancy between those who use exotics and ascended/legendary in favor of those who put the time and effort into crafting them - nothing more.

you still didnt get what i said.

i said "try out builds at their FULL potential" thats the only reason legendary has any value. if i wanted to test them with exotic stats then id get them in exo.i already said that exotics are cheap af.and yes, i get ascended stuff to have more impact than some half kitten exotic builds, if it didnt have the stat advantage id have no reason to get them, mist ppl dont even have infusions in their armor btw, they only are a small amount of pointsi determine more time and money into wvw than other ppl that only run that cheap exo stuff, ofc i want to have a benefit from thatpve ppl have to run ascended gear to get better results and solve the harder content, why should that be different in wvw??? in wvw those statpoints mostly make a difference in smallscale roaming, for zergs it makes almost no differencethis whole ez to get stuff is just for lazy pplive played wvw for pretty much 5 years exlusively and dedicated my whole gear to that. if you normalize stats etc all my work would be for naught because all that could easily be reached by cheap kitten exotic gear that is farmed in like 5minutes in pve

I still don't get your issue - you just said that those statpoints makes almost no difference. Then why are you fighting so hard to keep them? And I will try again:The extra stats you currently get from ascended/legendary gear would be transferred into the infusions instead - the full potential would still be the same. The benefit from having ascended gear would still be the same.

And your argument for farming exotic gear:

• You would have lower dmg range (as is the case today
• You would lose out on the 7,5% increased stats (today you lose out on 6,5% actually)
• You still wouldn't be able to statswap since it's not legendary.

It would help alot if you could describe exactly what it is that would make your effort of getting ascended gear void with this change, because frankly I see only more reason to go for it as this would be a slight nerf to lvl 80 exotics as they exist today, and you would gain more stat difference by using your infusions than you currently do - hence a reason to get ascended.

because the stats make no difference in zerging, but i also roam, and i want those stat advantages in roaming when i put more effort into it

do you mean that ascended gear gets lowered to exotic and exotics get lowered aswell? i understood it that way that ascended have the same stats as exotics, hence there wouldnt be any reason to get ascended, except infusion slots

Yeah you pretty much nailed it there - that is what I meant, that ascended become the new exotics and current exotics get lowered an equal amount, leaving infusions as the main contributor to the difference between the exotic and ascended instead of the inherent stats we have today.

Even better if we upped the infusions from 5 to 10 so that we would get 180 extra points for a full set - this would be a whooping 17% difference instead of the 5% bonus ascended give us now - but it would all be done with infusions, which would only be obtainable by getting ascended gear.

Or just leave it as is, since gear isn’t hard to acquire by any means, it is handed out just by playing the gamemode.... since your idea would still have a stat discrepancy...

The effort in question was to normalize gear in WvW. This would achieve exactly that, without ignoring the time and effort spent by players in order to obtain ascended gear.Normalize = Lower the difference between bottom and top tier stat allocation, here with exotics being the bottom and ascended the top. With the added benefit of lowering both extremes, meaning every attribute point would matter more than they currently do, encouraging build variety.

It doesn’t normalize them in anyway since you even stated fully infused out would have a higher percentage of stats over the current iteration...... making it less normalized... just because you lower both stats on Ascended and exotic mean nothing to normalize them, especially if you put in a way to make a larger stat disparity, it’s more cost effective for Anet to leave it as is vs your suggestion.

in case you didn't notice I left out the infusion contribution of todays ascended gear. So you will lose those 5%, but gain 1% back through infusions, but the major benefit would still be the increase in weapon strength going from exotic to ascended. By lowering stats and controlling exactly how much you can go over the cap through infusions, food, utilities and traits would indeed normalize the mode, meaning every attribute point would count for more.

Why should ascended armor have the same value as exotics? It makes no sense to me to ignore this. So of course there should still be a stat disparity, it is only fair. But it's all about not making it too big, which is seen today evident in the builds that benefit heavily on 1 stat investments. You have to realise only the extremes will be affected by this change, which was the goal all along - to bring them closer to eachother while maintaining their respective top/bottom positions.

As for cost effective:Should anet spend workhours on a multitude of balance patches trying to reign in overperforming builds as they present themselves, what runes/sigils to disable, food/utility to nerf and what professions to rework?OrShould they use the already in place upscale mechanic once in order to minimize potential outliers and give them full control over the raw numbers available to players?

Because only one of those options would upset part of their customer base.

Again your suggestion isn’t normalizing anything, all it is doing is changing the values and leaving a disparity, and would be extremely cost ineffective for Anet since it doesn’t change anything...

Your proposed stat disparity isn’t big? Your stat disparity in your own words would be much larger percentage wise than it currently is over exotics....

That was if they doubled the infusion values. With the current values you would lose the 5% extra stats, keep the increased damage range and infusions would count for 1% more of your total attribute pool. It's a nerf - but since the proposed gear normalization was set to slightly lower than lvl 80 gear, this means the exotics would be slightly nerfed too and we somewhat keep the same disparity as would be without infusions - but these would now be 100% tied to infusions and ascended weapons, so there's more progression to it than just getting an ascended piece.

The change is intended to give clear cut min/max values, and indirectly cap the efficiency of compounding traits without taking away the core philosophy of the gamemode. The only reason the disparity remains is out of respect to those who feel they've invested too much in it already - if you don't listen to them how do you expect them to listen to you?

There are already clear cut min max values, since all values are known and lowering the value doesn’t change that in the slightest..... that is pure common sense. Since you aren’t removing any stat disparity then there is zero reason to do this it would be wasted effort....