Are you satisfied with the specialization paths?

[maddoctor.2738]

@"DotDotWin.4357" said:Shields should have a passive block value all the time, for every attack and maybe they do, maybe they block lots of attacks but if they do, I certainly can't tell. It feels like I might as well be carrying a paperweight instead of a shield. It not only dosen't feel heroic, it doesn't even feel logical.

No this would make the game feel stupid and completely random like so many other RPGs out there. What does a percentage block chance even mean in reality? When you are attacked, your shield has a 20% chance of blocking an attack, otherwise it's like it's not even there. How does that make sense to you? You either use the shield to block, or you don't, either activate the skill to block, or you don't block.

The reason why you block for a set amount of seconds and then you need to wait for the cooldown is for balance, that Warrior shield block skill is one of the most amazing skills on Shield. You know why? Because skillful players can use it to block the higher damaging attacks of their foes. It's not like it's the only block skill Warriors have either.Second, it works like that so it has counterplay and makes the decision to activate or not the skill important. Otherwise it's a lame passive effect that you have no control over. You might not like games that require skill to play and instead want to rely on dumb random chance, there tons of these out there and this one should never become one of them. Even those "30% to proc on critical hit" abilities need to be toned down and/or removed.

Edit:

It's like saying a cops riot shield only blocks thrown rocks every 20 seconds.Does that make any sense at all?

With your "passive block" version, that so many other passive video games use, it's like saying that cops riot shield only blocks 20% of the thrown rocks, and which ones is chosen completely at random. Does that make any sense at all?

[DeanBB.4268]

After 6 years of playing this game, I do feel heroic with my skills, traits, and gear. When I first started, a deer I accidentally hit killed me. Now I kill them at leisure.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@DotDotWin.4357 said:

@"AliamRationem.5172" said:What you call inconsequential actually add up to a class that has excellent passive and active damage reduction as well as pretty insane regen.

That may be true, but if players never learn the magic combination of abilities that synergize well together among all the detritus they will never see it.Your enjoyment of a game should never, ever, be dependent on trying to figure out the secret combo that the developers hid in the game to make your class viable.

You have failed as a designer if your players can't pick up the game and feel heroic. That is what you are selling as an MMO. You are selling the fantasy of power and or heroism.

Example: Look at your shield:One ability shield slams your enemy stunning them for a whole 2 seconds every 20 seconds, doing a pitiful amount of damage (Huzzah?)Your other ability lets you cower behind your shield for 3 seconds every 20 seconds blocking incoming attacks. (So heroic?)

Why aren't you always blocking attacks with your shield? Isn't that the point of having a shield?It's like saying a cops riot shield only blocks thrown rocks every 20 seconds.Does that make any sense at all?Shields should have a passive block value all the time, for every attack and maybe they do, maybe they block lots of attacks but if they do, I certainly can't tell. It feels like I might as well be carrying a paperweight instead of a shield. It not only dosen't feel heroic, it doesn't even feel logical.

Again, put it in context. If I can regen over 800 health/s between regen, healing signet, and adrenal health and I can avoid damage by blocking for 3 seconds out of every 20 seconds. I am now not only able to strategically block the attacks I need to block, but I am also regaining about 2.5k health in the process. If I can stun the target for 2 seconds (which, btw, is also useful for breaking defiance bars!), that's another 2 seconds I'm not taking damage (from one target that is not immune to CC, anyway) and gaining another 1.7k health. Now toss in endure pain for another 4 seconds and so on.

I'm not sure what you expect here. You seem to be suggesting that all of this is too complicated, amounting to a "secret combo" for success. But how should it work, in your mind? Should we simplify things further so that instead of making 3 choices per trait line you simply choose a trait line and get whatever the game gives you, with no choices to be made? Is that really an improvement to you?

You want shields to passively block a percentage of attacks. But how is that "heroic"? I would argue that active skills feel like you're actually doing something. Would you rather have shields block 15% of attacks passively (3/20 = 0.15) or give you the choice to block for 3 seconds on a 20 second cooldown? I much prefer the latter as it allows me to decide when I need those blocks.

[DeanBB.4268]

@DotDotWin.4357 said:

@DeanBB.4268 said:I wonder if the OP is still leveling characters or if this is based upon end-game, full gear observations?

I leveled a necro to ~48, a Mage to ~45, a engineer to ~48, then picked up a warrior and PVPed till 40 then boosted the rest of the way with the ToK piling up in my bank.I have the yellow gear mostly, mostly from PVP reward tracks, a few off the AH, and an ascended accessory from the laurel vendor so I'm still geared like a noob.

Part of my problem is I can't afford the expansions so I only have the base game with some unlocks from buying it waaay back at release. No Masteries, no mount, no elite specs. I can't pay to win so I have to make due with the basic game.

Without the expansions, this should all be easier for you. I have a fully unlocked main account, plus 6 accounts with just core, so I regularly design builds using just the core components.

What I do is go through the wiki to see what traits for a given profession are of interest, according to how you play and what you want to do (weapon skills, for example), and jot them down. Go through all the available traits, then look to see what gels well with the traits most of interest. For a condi build, traits that add other conditions, or condition duration, or cause a chain reaction.

Example: A build with crits causing torment (30%), torment causing poison (plus poison lasts longer), when you chill you cause torment (which then inflicts poison), and torment does more damage and lasts longer. Add in a sigil that causes chill on hit and you get nice synergy. Don't discount those 30% chances. You're landing a lot of hits and those 30%ers will get triggered.

That's just one trait line and a sigil. Look at the other lines. Look at rune options, utility skills, everything. Then try it out to see how it works for you. Maybe you need to swap in some traits or skills for more survivability. As usual, this type of advice assumes you're looking at a level 80 character. For leveling up, it really doesn't matter. Seriously, anything you're doing on a sub-80 has no need to be so fine tuned.

This is nothing secret, or obscure, or hidden. I use the wiki since it is easier for me to take in the data that way, but that's all available in-game.

[DotDotWin.4357]

@maddoctor.2738 said:You either use the shield to block, or you don't, either activate the skill to block, or you don't block.

Ok, then why have a 20 second cool down on the main purpose for having a shield?

You want it to have no random chance then give it no cool down so you can choose to defend or attack but not both.

[JTGuevara.9018]

Honestly, I like the old trait system better. Those that played this game pre-2015 know what I'm referring to. The old trait point system allowed you to put points into all 5 of your core trait lines. The new specialization system only allows you to use 3. You actually had more build diversity back then than now. Sure the trait choices weren't always good, but you had more options. Specializations are simply more limiting than what we had before.

[starlinvf.1358]

@DotDotWin.4357 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:You either use the shield to block, or you don't, either activate the skill to block, or you don't block.

Ok, then why have a 20 second cool down on the main purpose for having a shield?

You want it to have no random chance then give it no cool down so you can choose to defend or attack but not both.

You're further proving his point. The game is built on the concept of play and counter play; action against action (or inaction). This model works on the idea of players making decisions advantage themselves and disadvantage their opponent- so you need a game play design to capitalize on this process. A 3 second block window forces you to weigh risks between using it or using something else to deal with an attack, what types of attacks to use it against to get maximum pay off, or even using it to psychologically manipulate your opponent.

If we were to go with your example of having it block all the time, theres no decision to be made: its just objectively better to always have the shield blocking as much as possible. It also massively slows down combat, since you now need to bait the opponent into an attack, just to have any opportunity to strike. This would work if the game was built around 1v1 Duels, like the system found in Chivalry and Kingdom Come. But it utterly fails here, since this game is a combination of Tab targeting, 1vX and XvX via prevalence of AOE/Cleave, low precision combat, high mobility with no collision rules, and the indiscriminate nature of damage.

The game's focal point is movement and dodging, which makes naturally passive defenses stronger because they don't interfere with either. Your attempt at a hyperbolic argument just dismantled itself.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@DotDotWin.4357 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:You either use the shield to block, or you don't, either activate the skill to block, or you don't block.

Ok, then why have a 20 second cool down on the main purpose for having a shield?

You want it to have no random chance then give it no cool down so you can choose to defend or attack but not both.

Well, not only does that make zero sense, but you make a powerful defensive ability (blocking all attacks) usable at will and indefinitely. The thing isn't supposed to make you a turtle, able to retract into your shell whenever you feel like it to avoid damage and recover health! It has to have some drawbacks, you know!

[ScottBroChill.3254]

My problem is every line has the three best traits and I take them every time because they are just superior. So to me its like I don't get trait choices but that each traitline I take is going to be the same thing every time. It's all an illusion.

[Airdive.2613]

@ScottBroChill.3254 said:My problem is every line has the three best traits and I take them every time because they are just superior. So to me its like I don't get trait choices but that each traitline I take is going to be the same thing every time. It's all an illusion.

There's nothing wrong with the three traits being clearly superior for your build and playstyle. One player's illusion is another player's core trait.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

@Airdive.2613 said:

There's nothing wrong with the three traits being clearly superior for your build and playstyle. One player's illusion is another player's core trait.

The problem is it isn't even build dependant. It's just the other two options are usually far inferior in every build because they don't provide practical benefits.

[Airdive.2613]

@ScottBroChill.3254 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

There's nothing wrong with the three traits being clearly superior

for your build and playstyle

. One player's illusion is another player's core trait.

The problem is it isn't even build dependant. It's just the other two options are usually far inferior in every build because they don't provide practical benefits.

Well, it's too vague without an example.

[DotDotWin.4357]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:It has to have some drawbacks, you know!

Exactly. The whole idea of a God-Mode block everything button is stupid but it's infinitely more stupid that you have it on a timer. Carrying a shield should give you a randomized (40%?) block chance for normal attacks, a stun (shield slam) like it has now, and a cower behind your shield to reflect ranged attacks option for when you start getting pelted by a thief half the map away that is on a cool down. Having it be all or nothing is just stupid and illogical. That's not how fighting works.

[Airdive.2613]

@DotDotWin.4357 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:It has to have some drawbacks, you know!

Exactly. The whole idea of a God-Mode block everything button is stupid but it's infinitely more stupid that you have it on a timer. Carrying a shield should give you a randomized (40%?) block chance for normal attacks, a stun (shield slam) like it has now, and a cower behind your shield to reflect ranged attacks option for when you start getting pelted by a thief half the map away that is on a cool down. Having it be all or nothing is just stupid and illogical. That's not how fighting works.

You might not have noticed, but just equipping a shield increases your armor rating regardless of the attribute bonus it provides. What you're looking for is already in the game.As to the random blocks - please no, not ever. Putting your luck before your skill and knowledge would be terrible game design. Nope, that lucky roll will not make you feel heroic.

[DotDotWin.4357]

@"starlinvf.1358" said:

The game is built on the concept of play and counter play; action against action (or inaction). This model works on the idea of players making decisions advantage themselves and disadvantage their opponent- so you need a game play design to capitalize on this process. A 3 second block window forces you to weigh risks between using it or using something else to deal with an attack, what types of attacks to use it against to get maximum pay off, or even using it to psychologically manipulate your opponent.

Unless your opponent an open on you, does a lot of damage, vanishes, wait for their timers to reset, then open on you again, forever so you never have a chance to counter attack or if they attack you from so far away you'll be dead by the time you get to them, or attack you and summon 5 versions of themselves so you don't even know who you are suppose to be targeting.

Because that's "counter play" right? That takes real "skill" does it?

Your argument fails because your romanticized ideal of the game doesn't actually happen. Counter play, reading your opponent, anticipating them, and manipulating them to and react the way you want is a fantasy held by people who only play over powered specs that are face-roll easy.

Your "skill" would vanish the moment you played a build that wasn't the flavor of the month because you would be dead in the first three seconds to someone who was playing the flavor of the month and that's the point. Getting steam rolled by people who have the X-pacs isn't fun. Getting steam-rolled by people who exploit the system to kill you from so far away you can't fight back isn't fun. Dying, rezing, running back into combat just to die again in seconds isn't fun.

The game should be fun. That's the point of games.

If we were to go with your example of having it block all the time, theres no decision to be made: its just objectively better to always have the shield blocking as much as possible.

Sure if you want to sit there and never move or do damage until someone knocks you off a cliff or pushes you into an enemy, or they set you on fire or fear you or a million other things.

It also massively slows down combat, since you now need to bait the opponent into an attack, just to have any opportunity to strike.

What happen to your counter-play argument? All the sudden you don't want counter play? Why would slowing down combat and giving people a chance to actually react instead of just being ganked by untouchable enemies be all that terrible?

[DotDotWin.4357]

@Airdive.2613 said:Nope, that lucky roll will not make you feel heroic.

So we should eliminate crit chance then to, right? I mean, if you don't want randomness interfering with the purity of your skill based counter play model then crit has to go, doesn't it? Why is one ok but not the other?

[Sylvari.2953]

It could be better. I main Firebrand and love it mostly but I don't like the "forced" Quickness-related stuff on minor traits. Quickness is great for instanced group content but my Quickness uptime is extremely low for my build/when I solo so these traits are pretty much useless in my case. I wish we could change minor traits for better customization.

[Airdive.2613]

@DotDotWin.4357 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:Nope, that lucky roll will not make you feel heroic.

So we should eliminate crit chance then to, right? I mean, if you don't want randomness interfering with the purity of your skill based counter play model then crit has to go, doesn't it? Why is one ok but not the other?

Yup. Critical hit mechanic is overused in GW 2 (as well as in a lot of modern videogames). Not only it's random, but it also sounds silly to me when 8 out of 10 hits you land are critical.I doubt they're going to eliminate or change it, though, because of all the critical hit attributes, runes, traits and skills already present in the game.

[Oglaf.1074]

There are definitely some choices on Anet’s part that confuse/annoy me. Merciless Hammer for Warrior, for example. There’s absolutely no point to this trait - adding conditions to a Power/CC weapon? The extra damage seems nice in theory but is far too situational and the Hammer is a slow weapon that has a hard time capitalizing on it.

Even if you spend your time on your Warrior 24/7 wielding a Hammer you’re better off with a different alternative in that trait tier.

It just makes no sense...

[maddoctor.2738]

@DotDotWin.4357 said:

@"Airdive.2613" said:Nope, that lucky roll will not make you feel heroic.So we should eliminate crit chance then to, right? I mean, if you don't want randomness interfering with the purity of your skill based counter play model then crit has to go, doesn't it? Why is one ok but not the other?

Usually you use a good combination of skills, boons and traits to bring critical chance close to 100% so that's a no argument really. You need to spend loads of resources (that could be spent elsewhere) in order to do that so it's a good trade off. The game used to have more "on crit" effects but they removed some, they really need to remove more, they even fixed Engineer skills that used to provide random boons, to provide specific boons instead. The developers know that random chance like that has no reason to exist in good, skillful, active, games, that's a thing for pen and paper RPGs and turn based RPGs were you roll a dice to perform an action (or one is rolled by the game) and that's for obvious reasons. For those that might not get it, the reason is in those games you don't directly control your character yourself, you can't "aim" yourself so a task resolution system needs to exist. In action oriented games this isn't needed, there is no reason to have attack rolls, when you can aim and shoot where you want, there is no reason to have passive defenses when you can defend yourself.

What happen to your counter-play argument? All the sudden you don't want counter play? Why would slowing down combat and giving people a chance to actually react instead of just being ganked by untouchable enemies be all that terrible?

Because this isn't a 1vs1 game. A system like the one in let's say Skyrim were you hold the button to block or parry works well in small scale encounters and direct action combat mechanics. This game is a hybrid between action and tab-target combat but it's also about mass scale encounters. For instance, other games have a random chance to "evade" attacks too for nimble characters. In Guild Wars 2 we have dodge for that, which is active and drains resources (can't be spammed) it requires management and of course skill.

From what I understand, you are frustrated you got destroyed by elite specs in PVP combat and you blame the weakness of the core specs for it. Yes elite specs are really strong but this isn't a way to go about it. Because at the end of day, elite specs also use these same abilities available to core specs... Let's say Endure Pain is buffed, to make Core builds more survivable. This won't work because at the same time Elite specs will be buffed too since they also use that skill.

[joneirikb.7506]

Ironically, core warrior with most of the things you've mentioned is in Meta for the competitive game modes, and even with the shield, because it is very good against other players. Most players complain that they're almost impossible to kill already.

All shields already gives a passive defense bonus, which makes you take slightly reduced damage, so it already have a passive bonus.

Entire GW2 is built around action combat, not realism (not that I think random procs are any more realistic). And thus skills like Warrior-Shield-5 is built around having to time it right to negate big damage numbers, with a cool-down to punish you if you get it wrong. Basically it is a skill that if used right can completely mess an enemies damage up, if used wrong is just wasted and on cool-down when you need it. Thus it becomes a tactical choice, and requires a player to know his own build, roughly what the enemy can do, and to predict it. And that is the type of game-play GW2 has originally tried to go for.

I'll absolutely agree that the elite specializations and the power-creep with the expansions messed this up somewhat.

But if you change the shield to either:

• Random block proc X%

You essentially build it like you would build a shield in WoW or other games where you're basing it on a passive combat system. Basically all the numbers does the work for you, in the background, without you needing to interact with the combat for it to work. This is the opposite of GW2's action combat.

• Full block with no cool-down

Basically god-mode, no need to type in IDDQD. Kind of reminds me of old wow paladin bubble, bubble+heartstone! Anyways it again removes the consequences for using the skill, you have no reason to not use it, no tactical choice. Not to mention that the effect would be WAY to strong if you could constantly use it like that, strong effects are balanced by short durations and long cooldowns.

---

Lastly I do agree that making sense of the traits/builds in this game can be daunting for new players. I've had to help several friends with this over the years, and stumbled across several new players that has found it hard and needing some help to make sense out of it.

I don't know exactly how I'd go about cleaning up/fixing the build system to make it easier available for players, since if you simplify it too much, you end up also removing the build-craft that others enjoy.

My experience is that new players or others that finds the builds confusing, doesn't know about or realize the importance of:

• Traits (in general)
• Runes (random minor runes most of the time, or mis-match with build)
• Sigils (random minor sigils most of the time, or mis-match with build)
• Stats/Quality (Most typical with new players, random level rewards + drops, mix of levels and quality)

I think traits would be a good spot to start, if players start playing with and understanding traits and synergies, they will easier pick up on the rest as well. But no idea how to improve on the traits without limiting it too much, hmm will ponder that a bit.

[Robban.1256]

@Oglaf.1074 said:There are definitely some choices on Anet’s part that confuse/annoy me. Merciless Hammer for Warrior, for example. There’s absolutely no point to this trait - adding conditions to a Power/CC weapon? The extra damage seems nice in theory but is far too situational and the Hammer is a slow weapon that has a hard time capitalizing on it.

Even if you spend your time on your Warrior 24/7 wielding a Hammer you’re better off with a different alternative in that trait tier.

It just makes no sense...

It also works with a mace, cus the trait which applied confusion on interrupt got merged into merciless hammer, but it still works on any interrupts not just hammer ones.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@DotDotWin.4357 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:It has to have some drawbacks, you know!

Exactly. The whole idea of a God-Mode block everything button is stupid but it's infinitely more stupid that you have it on a timer. Carrying a shield should give you a randomized (40%?) block chance for normal attacks, a stun (shield slam) like it has now, and a cower behind your shield to reflect ranged attacks option for when you start getting pelted by a thief half the map away that is on a cool down. Having it be all or nothing is just stupid and illogical. That's not how fighting works.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm fine with it the way it is and I don't like your ideas on improvement.

[Hevoskuuri.3891]

Like someone mentioned, there's always room for improvement, thus I also chose 'It could be better'.

All in all though, I think the system is pretty clever. Sure, even after the rework there are still some traits you never end up picking, at least unless it's some sort of a very niche build for goofing around. There are also some adept traits in some specializations that feel like they would fit another spec much better, and vice versa.

But the GM traits are the ones that alter the way you play, and the lower traits are simply a bonus to reinforce your build and playstyle. They might seem trivial when you read the text, but in certain situations they might help you in many ways you don't even notice, and they might even be the reason why you won a duel instead of your enemy.

[Etria.3642]

I chose it could be better because everything can, but for the most part, it works. I certainly do NOT like Dotdot's suggestions for shield, and from what I saw, they had only one character at 80, have not been in fractals raids or wvw? Play some more of the game before deciding, please, and also check out some build sites who can do the figuring for you for deciding which is best.

As for only 5-10 percent better, that is crazy low. Just on my soulbeast(and I'm not very good) I can do literally 15k difference between paying attention in the rotation and not paying attention. I still have another 5-10k to go to 'get good' but it's currently enough for what I do now.