thank god we have player that allow necromancer in end game content

[sigur.9453]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Farkon.2170 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@"Zero.3871" said:Even when i personally never do PvE (so i cannot speak from my personal experience), i see that there is obviously a Problem with necro in gw2. i also dont understand why People prefer to wait 5 more minutes for Special classes than needing 2 more min with necro in Team. of Course it is stupid, but finally this Situation is real and anet created that by mishandling the necromancer FOR YEARS. Maybe necro could easily do that stuff but anet made community toxic AGAINST necros and

should take responsibility

for this and make the game fun for necro mains again because games should be fun and not frustrating.

maybe at the very beginning of the game the current performance of necros would be enough, but after all the years of necro underperformance in pve we have that situation (and i really feel with OP, because his screenshoots are real and frustrating). atm, after years of mishandling the Situation there is just 1 solution left, bringing necro exactly in line with others.

Arena Net did not make people toxic against Necromancers. That's just silly and a statement you can't support. The situation is not as simplistic as you paint it and ignores far too many important factors.

Indirectly they did. Indirectly they can prevent people from being toxic to Necromancers by giving them a feasible role in which they can contribute to, whether it's DPS, Support, or another viable role.With a role then players will have a need for them instead of the opposite.Also, there's a lot of assumptions being flung around and I found it amusing when you got mad at my quotes.Regardless, the fact of the matter is Necros are underperforming and unfriendly to newer players due to never being updated and their innate limitations as well, we can argue the semantics until we're throwing mud around like monkeys, but it doesn't change that fact.

But there are already viable dps an support options. They are even meta on some bosses. I think we don't need to talk about wvw. And they are quite the opposite of unfriendly to new players which imo is the main reason of the "necro hate". Regarding viability necros are in line with other professions.

Wait. We have 2 bosses where scourge is meta.

Soulless horror, but you only take one scourge there, to epi the golems and wurms

And sabetha to kite and kill adds.

Regarding viability necro is definetly not in line with other professions.

No DPS spec that can compete with the other classesNo support spec that is good outside of one to carry complete idiots (and then they might still not do enough damage)

The big issue with necromancer: anet has to make everything about booncorrupt and area damage, which is just not needed or good for engame pve.

Unless they bring a boss, that constantly applies boons to corrupt into bleed/torment/confusion/burningAnd also make the boss an addboss that is just killing 5billion adds in fast time (power classes might be better for this though)

Beeing meta is not nessasary to get into pug groups. You sound like an elitist. Ironicly this thread only exists because off people with your mindset.

I'm not an elitist. By far not. I just wanna be effective for my group, whatever group I play in. If it's in my static or in pugs.

But if I put the same amount of work into another class, that I put work into necro, every other class id play, would do more dps

That's not correct, at least not on every boss.

or i can keep people at 100% with healing, if they aren't complete dumb players, not even having to rezz them (yeah a lot of druids fail this).

Necro is in line with other heal supports, your point is you have different choices? Sounds good to me.

So if you can play holo and necro right now, both at 90-95% what would you play?If you now say necro, I don't want to ever have you in my group, because that sounds like: I don't care, I just do what I want, I'm not playing for the group.

Since it's about pugs. If you do 90%+ dps it does not matter on which class, you will be top dps most of the times. And yes I actually play to have fun,so I will actually play the class I want to. In the static it depends, mostly it even matters less except you go for more advanced tactics. thats sounds pretty elitist to me btw.

I got like 4 or 5 classes equipped for raids. And there's not many bosses where I play necro. Because even if I can play other classes only at 90% while I play necro at 99 or 100%, I do more damage with other classes, than with necro. Which leads me to play other classes, because I don't want to get permanently carried by other people's dps.

I have one power and one condi char for every class, I like to play around. While I do more dps on some classes, it really does not matter. if you do 99% you are not getting carried. I'm used to doing low man fullclears/wings.... 3k+++ dps difference when you go with a full squad does not matter.

As long as necro isn't on par golem DPS wise. People will always look down on necro. That's just how it is.3k more pve-dps wouldn't hurt anywhere.Anet just has to work more with the skill split.

I mean, they already did it for scourge (icd on dhuumfire)Why can't they make it so necro does 33k DPS as well?Necro is the only class, that doesn't have a benchmark in the 32-33k range.Or just make the bloodversion do 30k (it's at 27-28 right now I believe), cause with VP it could get as well to 32-33k DPS.

It's just a way too selfish class, that anet always is afraid to give good DPS, cause it might end up too good in pvp-modes (even though it wouldn't matter, weaknesses will stay, and if you don't know, the weaknesses of a necro, you deserve to die).Or design more bosses with large trash mobs, or with a lot boons to corrupt.

Then you could leave necro as it is.

thats one of the first "non emotional" comments from someone of "your side" and i highly appreachiate it.i agree, 3k dps+ wouldn´t hurt. but aslong as epi holds necro hostage anet will be scared to do so, or it will at least take some time to make small adjustments and increase the dps. and it would make necro even more broken on bosses where epi bouncing is already a pretty good strat. not that i would care, but balance team does for sure.but im quite not sure if it would fix the "look down on necro part".i certainly do not want to offend anyone, but well, the amount of necros (& dh´s as well in that regard) which are highly underperforming is huge in comparisson to other classes. obviously thats no fact and my personal opinion (buildt over 2,5 years), but people i know will agree with that. as said before, i would never kick someone for beeing a certain class, but i am often more then happy if a necro/dh player actually pulls his/her weight. (80%+). might have something to do that those 2 classes are always recommended to new players.

[Axl.8924]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Farkon.2170 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@"Zero.3871" said:Even when i personally never do PvE (so i cannot speak from my personal experience), i see that there is obviously a Problem with necro in gw2. i also dont understand why People prefer to wait 5 more minutes for Special classes than needing 2 more min with necro in Team. of Course it is stupid, but finally this Situation is real and anet created that by mishandling the necromancer FOR YEARS. Maybe necro could easily do that stuff but anet made community toxic AGAINST necros and

should take responsibility

for this and make the game fun for necro mains again because games should be fun and not frustrating.

maybe at the very beginning of the game the current performance of necros would be enough, but after all the years of necro underperformance in pve we have that situation (and i really feel with OP, because his screenshoots are real and frustrating). atm, after years of mishandling the Situation there is just 1 solution left, bringing necro exactly in line with others.

Arena Net did not make people toxic against Necromancers. That's just silly and a statement you can't support. The situation is not as simplistic as you paint it and ignores far too many important factors.

Indirectly they did. Indirectly they can prevent people from being toxic to Necromancers by giving them a feasible role in which they can contribute to, whether it's DPS, Support, or another viable role.With a role then players will have a need for them instead of the opposite.Also, there's a lot of assumptions being flung around and I found it amusing when you got mad at my quotes.Regardless, the fact of the matter is Necros are underperforming and unfriendly to newer players due to never being updated and their innate limitations as well, we can argue the semantics until we're throwing mud around like monkeys, but it doesn't change that fact.

But there are already viable dps an support options. They are even meta on some bosses. I think we don't need to talk about wvw. And they are quite the opposite of unfriendly to new players which imo is the main reason of the "necro hate". Regarding viability necros are in line with other professions.

Wait. We have 2 bosses where scourge is meta.

Soulless horror, but you only take one scourge there, to epi the golems and wurms

And sabetha to kite and kill adds.

Regarding viability necro is definetly not in line with other professions.

No DPS spec that can compete with the other classesNo support spec that is good outside of one to carry complete idiots (and then they might still not do enough damage)

The big issue with necromancer: anet has to make everything about booncorrupt and area damage, which is just not needed or good for engame pve.

Unless they bring a boss, that constantly applies boons to corrupt into bleed/torment/confusion/burningAnd also make the boss an addboss that is just killing 5billion adds in fast time (power classes might be better for this though)

Beeing meta is not nessasary to get into pug groups. You sound like an elitist. Ironicly this thread only exists because off people with your mindset.

I'm not an elitist. By far not. I just wanna be effective for my group, whatever group I play in. If it's in my static or in pugs.

But if I put the same amount of work into another class, that I put work into necro, every other class id play, would do more dpsor i can keep people at 100% with healing, if they aren't complete dumb players, not even having to rezz them (yeah a lot of druids fail this).

So if you can play holo and necro right now, both at 90-95% what would you play?If you now say necro, I don't want to ever have you in my group, because that sounds like: I don't care, I just do what I want, I'm not playing for the group.

I got like 4 or 5 classes equipped for raids. And there's not many bosses where I play necro. Because even if I can play other classes only at 90% while I play necro at 99 or 100%, I do more damage with other classes, than with necro. Which leads me to play other classes, because I don't want to get permanently carried by other people's dps.

According to raidar, necromancers are more than viable.

Condi scourge is more viable on some and reaper on some others, and support scourge is very much useful as healer with vampiric presence.Also: Every single class has its weak points.If you look for instance at some of the other raids, tempest is far lower, but on samarog, tempest and weaver are top.

My point is no two same classes dominate the same raid boss.

[DragonFury.6243]

@"Conqueror.3682" said:

How often does this happen?from time to time but its more than enough to be a problemdailies rare caseCMs condi scourge is kicked because condi is the problem so you need to join as a power reaperraid if they need epi you ll have 1 slot but as a pure DPS you need alot of KP to enter (in case of W6 i ping 24 KP and i can join full clear less i ll get kicked mainly because CA the fist boss is power boss and other profession are better than reaper but i have holo so i just switch and rest i do it with scourge as DPS is not a problem other wings you need better DPS as will help with less mechanic so ll get clean clear)Also does it happen to other professions?mainly necro or any underperformed profession at that time (if you join as condi on a power boss that not included or vise versa)

[Nimon.7840]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Farkon.2170 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@"Zero.3871" said:Even when i personally never do PvE (so i cannot speak from my personal experience), i see that there is obviously a Problem with necro in gw2. i also dont understand why People prefer to wait 5 more minutes for Special classes than needing 2 more min with necro in Team. of Course it is stupid, but finally this Situation is real and anet created that by mishandling the necromancer FOR YEARS. Maybe necro could easily do that stuff but anet made community toxic AGAINST necros and

should take responsibility

for this and make the game fun for necro mains again because games should be fun and not frustrating.

maybe at the very beginning of the game the current performance of necros would be enough, but after all the years of necro underperformance in pve we have that situation (and i really feel with OP, because his screenshoots are real and frustrating). atm, after years of mishandling the Situation there is just 1 solution left, bringing necro exactly in line with others.

Arena Net did not make people toxic against Necromancers. That's just silly and a statement you can't support. The situation is not as simplistic as you paint it and ignores far too many important factors.

Indirectly they did. Indirectly they can prevent people from being toxic to Necromancers by giving them a feasible role in which they can contribute to, whether it's DPS, Support, or another viable role.With a role then players will have a need for them instead of the opposite.Also, there's a lot of assumptions being flung around and I found it amusing when you got mad at my quotes.Regardless, the fact of the matter is Necros are underperforming and unfriendly to newer players due to never being updated and their innate limitations as well, we can argue the semantics until we're throwing mud around like monkeys, but it doesn't change that fact.

But there are already viable dps an support options. They are even meta on some bosses. I think we don't need to talk about wvw. And they are quite the opposite of unfriendly to new players which imo is the main reason of the "necro hate". Regarding viability necros are in line with other professions.

Wait. We have 2 bosses where scourge is meta.

Soulless horror, but you only take one scourge there, to epi the golems and wurms

And sabetha to kite and kill adds.

Regarding viability necro is definetly not in line with other professions.

No DPS spec that can compete with the other classesNo support spec that is good outside of one to carry complete idiots (and then they might still not do enough damage)

The big issue with necromancer: anet has to make everything about booncorrupt and area damage, which is just not needed or good for engame pve.

Unless they bring a boss, that constantly applies boons to corrupt into bleed/torment/confusion/burningAnd also make the boss an addboss that is just killing 5billion adds in fast time (power classes might be better for this though)

Beeing meta is not nessasary to get into pug groups. You sound like an elitist. Ironicly this thread only exists because off people with your mindset.

I'm not an elitist. By far not. I just wanna be effective for my group, whatever group I play in. If it's in my static or in pugs.

But if I put the same amount of work into another class, that I put work into necro, every other class id play, would do more dps

That's not correct, at least not on every boss.

or i can keep people at 100% with healing, if they aren't complete dumb players, not even having to rezz them (yeah a lot of druids fail this).

Necro is in line with other heal supports, your point is you have different choices? Sounds good to me.

So if you can play holo and necro right now, both at 90-95% what would you play?If you now say necro, I don't want to ever have you in my group, because that sounds like: I don't care, I just do what I want, I'm not playing for the group.

Since it's about pugs. If you do 90%+ dps it does not matter on which class, you will be top dps most of the times. And yes I actually play to have fun,so I will actually play the class I want to. In the static it depends, mostly it even matters less except you go for more advanced tactics. thats sounds pretty elitist to me btw.

I got like 4 or 5 classes equipped for raids. And there's not many bosses where I play necro. Because even if I can play other classes only at 90% while I play necro at 99 or 100%, I do more damage with other classes, than with necro. Which leads me to play other classes, because I don't want to get permanently carried by other people's dps.

I have one power and one condi char for every class, I like to play around. While I do more dps on some classes, it really does not matter. if you do 99% you are not getting carried. I'm used to doing low man fullclears/wings.... 3k+++ dps difference when you go with a full squad does not matter.

As long as necro isn't on par golem DPS wise. People will always look down on necro. That's just how it is.3k more pve-dps wouldn't hurt anywhere.Anet just has to work more with the skill split.

I mean, they already did it for scourge (icd on dhuumfire)Why can't they make it so necro does 33k DPS as well?Necro is the only class, that doesn't have a benchmark in the 32-33k range.Or just make the bloodversion do 30k (it's at 27-28 right now I believe), cause with VP it could get as well to 32-33k DPS.

It's just a way too selfish class, that anet always is afraid to give good DPS, cause it might end up too good in pvp-modes (even though it wouldn't matter, weaknesses will stay, and if you don't know, the weaknesses of a necro, you deserve to die).Or design more bosses with large trash mobs, or with a lot boons to corrupt.

Then you could leave necro as it is.

thats one of the first "non emotional" comments from someone of "your side" and i highly appreachiate it.i agree, 3k dps+ wouldn´t hurt. but aslong as epi holds necro hostage anet will be scared to do so, or it will at least take some time to make small adjustments and increase the dps. and it would make necro even more broken on bosses where epi bouncing is already a pretty good strat. not that i would care, but balance team does for sure.

Epi bounce is dead. Maybe to kill some adds but not to actually damage the boss.Also just make power reaper stronger, that wouldn't change a thing bout epi.

Also for scourge. From the introduction video of scourge, I think it was called a condition based support.Now I have a big problem with that:1) there are no real good stats combos for such a spec2) if you want to do proper support you have to play dagger, which results in a power based support.

I really wouldn't mind, if they gutted scourges dps- ability even more, but give him way better support (more boons).

but im quite not sure if it would fix the "look down on necro part".i certainly do not want to offend anyone, but well, the amount of necros (& dh´s as well in that regard) which are highly underperforming is huge in comparisson to other classes. obviously thats no fact and my personal opinion (buildt over 2,5 years), but people i know will agree with that. as said before, i would never kick someone for beeing a certain class, but i am often more then happy if a necro/dh player actually pulls his/her weight.(80%+). might have something to do that those 2 classes are always recommended to new players.

The problem I have. We accepted almost everything in our static when we were only 8 or 9 people, even power reapers.We all gave them a chance, but from my experience, we had one good reaper, and 40 bad ones (not only raids, also fractals).

And I'm not only judging DPS. Also survivability and game-understandings (such as when to use cc).

[sigur.9453]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@sigur.9453 said:

@Farkon.2170 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@"Zero.3871" said:Even when i personally never do PvE (so i cannot speak from my personal experience), i see that there is obviously a Problem with necro in gw2. i also dont understand why People prefer to wait 5 more minutes for Special classes than needing 2 more min with necro in Team. of Course it is stupid, but finally this Situation is real and anet created that by mishandling the necromancer FOR YEARS. Maybe necro could easily do that stuff but anet made community toxic AGAINST necros and

should take responsibility

for this and make the game fun for necro mains again because games should be fun and not frustrating.

maybe at the very beginning of the game the current performance of necros would be enough, but after all the years of necro underperformance in pve we have that situation (and i really feel with OP, because his screenshoots are real and frustrating). atm, after years of mishandling the Situation there is just 1 solution left, bringing necro exactly in line with others.

Arena Net did not make people toxic against Necromancers. That's just silly and a statement you can't support. The situation is not as simplistic as you paint it and ignores far too many important factors.

Indirectly they did. Indirectly they can prevent people from being toxic to Necromancers by giving them a feasible role in which they can contribute to, whether it's DPS, Support, or another viable role.With a role then players will have a need for them instead of the opposite.Also, there's a lot of assumptions being flung around and I found it amusing when you got mad at my quotes.Regardless, the fact of the matter is Necros are underperforming and unfriendly to newer players due to never being updated and their innate limitations as well, we can argue the semantics until we're throwing mud around like monkeys, but it doesn't change that fact.

But there are already viable dps an support options. They are even meta on some bosses. I think we don't need to talk about wvw. And they are quite the opposite of unfriendly to new players which imo is the main reason of the "necro hate". Regarding viability necros are in line with other professions.

Wait. We have 2 bosses where scourge is meta.

Soulless horror, but you only take one scourge there, to epi the golems and wurms

And sabetha to kite and kill adds.

Regarding viability necro is definetly not in line with other professions.

No DPS spec that can compete with the other classesNo support spec that is good outside of one to carry complete idiots (and then they might still not do enough damage)

The big issue with necromancer: anet has to make everything about booncorrupt and area damage, which is just not needed or good for engame pve.

Unless they bring a boss, that constantly applies boons to corrupt into bleed/torment/confusion/burningAnd also make the boss an addboss that is just killing 5billion adds in fast time (power classes might be better for this though)

Beeing meta is not nessasary to get into pug groups. You sound like an elitist. Ironicly this thread only exists because off people with your mindset.

I'm not an elitist. By far not. I just wanna be effective for my group, whatever group I play in. If it's in my static or in pugs.

But if I put the same amount of work into another class, that I put work into necro, every other class id play, would do more dps

That's not correct, at least not on every boss.

or i can keep people at 100% with healing, if they aren't complete dumb players, not even having to rezz them (yeah a lot of druids fail this).

Necro is in line with other heal supports, your point is you have different choices? Sounds good to me.

So if you can play holo and necro right now, both at 90-95% what would you play?If you now say necro, I don't want to ever have you in my group, because that sounds like: I don't care, I just do what I want, I'm not playing for the group.

Since it's about pugs. If you do 90%+ dps it does not matter on which class, you will be top dps most of the times. And yes I actually play to have fun,so I will actually play the class I want to. In the static it depends, mostly it even matters less except you go for more advanced tactics. thats sounds pretty elitist to me btw.

I got like 4 or 5 classes equipped for raids. And there's not many bosses where I play necro. Because even if I can play other classes only at 90% while I play necro at 99 or 100%, I do more damage with other classes, than with necro. Which leads me to play other classes, because I don't want to get permanently carried by other people's dps.

I have one power and one condi char for every class, I like to play around. While I do more dps on some classes, it really does not matter. if you do 99% you are not getting carried. I'm used to doing low man fullclears/wings.... 3k+++ dps difference when you go with a full squad does not matter.

As long as necro isn't on par golem DPS wise. People will always look down on necro. That's just how it is.3k more pve-dps wouldn't hurt anywhere.Anet just has to work more with the skill split.

I mean, they already did it for scourge (icd on dhuumfire)Why can't they make it so necro does 33k DPS as well?Necro is the only class, that doesn't have a benchmark in the 32-33k range.Or just make the bloodversion do 30k (it's at 27-28 right now I believe), cause with VP it could get as well to 32-33k DPS.

It's just a way too selfish class, that anet always is afraid to give good DPS, cause it might end up too good in pvp-modes (even though it wouldn't matter, weaknesses will stay, and if you don't know, the weaknesses of a necro, you deserve to die).Or design more bosses with large trash mobs, or with a lot boons to corrupt.

Then you could leave necro as it is.

thats one of the first "non emotional" comments from someone of "your side" and i highly appreachiate it.i agree, 3k dps+ wouldn´t hurt. but aslong as epi holds necro hostage anet will be scared to do so, or it will at least take some time to make small adjustments and increase the dps. and it would make necro even more broken on bosses where epi bouncing is already a pretty good strat. not that i would care, but balance team does for sure.

Epi bounce is dead. Maybe to kill some adds but not to actually damage the boss.Also just make power reaper stronger, that wouldn't change a thing bout epi.

Also for scourge. From the introduction video of scourge, I think it was called a condition based support.Now I have a big problem with that:1) there are no real good stats combos for such a spec2) if you want to do proper support you have to play dagger, which results in a power based support.

I really wouldn't mind, if they gutted scourges dps- ability even more, but give him way better support (more boons).

but im quite not sure if it would fix the "look down on necro part".i certainly do not want to offend anyone, but well, the amount of necros (& dh´s as well in that regard) which are highly underperforming is huge in comparisson to other classes. obviously thats no fact and my personal opinion (buildt over 2,5 years), but people i know will agree with that. as said before, i would never kick someone for beeing a certain class, but i am often more then happy if a necro/dh player actually pulls his/her weight.(80%+). might have something to do that those 2 classes are always recommended to new players.

i agree, it is certainly not on the power level it was before, but its a thin line to walk balance wise. if you boost scourge single target dps to much you are "in danger" of just stacking them when bouncing is possible and a you take the "free" 10-20% dps increase.(don´t call me out on the numbers, it was around 40% pre nerf i think).power in fractals/raids would need some love but i think its hard for anet to balance that since its already one of the strongest OW builds. sadly they take that also in consideration. not saying that i think they should. i mean they know the numbers and had years of time, something is clearly holding them back.

The problem I have. We accepted almost everything in our static when we were only 8 or 9 people, even power reapers.We all gave them a chance, but from my experience, we had one good reaper, and 40 bad ones (not only raids, also fractals).

yes, thats exactly what i was talking about and more reason that necros gets "excluded" than the balance issue, at least not directly.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@"Conqueror.3682" said:

How often does this happen? Also does it happen to other professions?

It's good you clip out the rest of the lfg which will be acceptant of necros lol, or you can just make your own group

[Gustaff.6581]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@"Conqueror.3682" said:

How often does this happen? Also does it happen to other professions?

It's good you clip out the rest of the lfg which will be acceptant of necros lol, or you can just make your own group

Sorry, pics arent mine, for that ask DragonFury.6243.

So, you know if this does happens to other professions?

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Conqueror.3682 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Conqueror.3682 said:

How often does this happen? Also does it happen to other professions?

It's good you clip out the rest of the lfg which will be acceptant of necros lol, or you can just make your own group

Sorry, pics arent mine, for that ask DragonFury.6243.

So, you know if this does happens to other professions?

It doesn't matter, these are just the minority of people who want the absolute best, there are other lfgs out there to go too that get through the content as easily

Edit: Just wanted to point out that from posts previous to this, DragonFury is and always will be bias towards necro where if its not the best class its worthless

[Obtena.7952]

Don't see the problem because the OP said it wasn't about getting raids, it was about just getting a group. He gets groups, they just kick him out later ... we know that from all the screenshots ... maybe it's because he just wants to get a group, but not do the raid. Don't need competitive DPS to get a group to get kicked out. No problem here /thread

@DragonFury.6243 said:i am not obsessing over can a necro or can a necro not raid, but necro join group or not

At least he's look at data in his newest thread; still not sure it's demonstrating what he thinks it does, but it's a try. It's better than just a random complaint.

[Dace.8173]

@Conqueror.3682 said:

How often does this happen? Also does it happen to other professions?

That's not really relevant. No one is disputing that it happens so continued posting of pics of it serve no purpose other than to make the conversation about the individual not knowing how to group as opposed to one about how to solve problems and mitigate difficulties.

@Nimon.7840 said:I'm not an elitist. By far not. I just wanna be effective for my group, whatever group I play in. If it's in my static or in pugs.

So if you can play holo and necro right now, both at 90-95% what would you play?If you now say necro, I don't want to ever have you in my group, because that sounds like: I don't care, I just do what I want, I'm not playing for the group.

This doesn't help you build a case that you're not elitist. You can play for the group and play Necromancer, so long as the group has different priorities than always being meta or only wanting to do speed clears.

@Nimon.7840 said:As long as necro isn't on par golem DPS wise. People will always look down on necro. That's just how it is.3k more pve-dps wouldn't hurt anywhere.Anet just has to work more with the skill split.

I mean, they already did it for scourge (icd on dhuumfire)Why can't they make it so necro does 33k DPS as well?

Likely because it wouldn't work. DPS doesn't really touch upon the core problems and just buffing DPS wouldn't resolve any problem. Which is the problem, people focus too much on DPS and that limits a lot of potential build types that could be utilized to do raids.

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:The problem I have. We accepted almost everything in our static when we were only 8 or 9 people, even power reapers.We all gave them a chance, but from my experience, we had one good reaper, and 40 bad ones (not only raids, also fractals).

yes, thats exactly what i was talking about and more reason that necros gets "excluded" than the balance issue, at least not directly.

This here also highlights why skill splits and increased DPS doesn't solve the problem. If Necromancer attracts a lot of bad players, and we know it attracts some, then DPS isn't going to help, at all. So you pretty much answer your question @Nimon.7840 when you ask why they can't do 33k DPS. 33k DPS wouldn't make a Necro player inherent better and if part of the reason they get kicked from content is due to how bad the perceived majority of the players are then folks would still not want them. This is one of the reasons why I keep saying that part of the problem is social in nature and one of the reasons why I say you can't lay all the blame at the feat of ANet. They don't make a player bad.

[Gustaff.6581]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:It doesn't matter, these are just the minority of people who want the absolute best, there are other lfgs out there to go too that get through the content as easily

Edit: Just wanted to point out that from posts previous to this, DragonFury is and always will be bias towards necro where if its not the best class its worthless

@Dace.8173 said:That's not really relevant. No one is disputing that it happens so continued posting of pics of it serve no purpose other than to make the conversation about the individual not knowing how to group as opposed to one about how to solve problems and mitigate difficulties.

I just wanna know, being relevant or not for you, so, does this happen to other professions? you know it or you call it irrelevant because you dont know it?

[Nimon.7840]

@Dace.8173 said:

@Conqueror.3682 said:

How often does this happen? Also does it happen to other professions?

That's not really relevant. No one is disputing that it happens so continued posting of pics of it serve no purpose other than to make the conversation about the individual not knowing how to group as opposed to one about how to solve problems and mitigate difficulties.

@Nimon.7840 said:I'm not an elitist. By far not. I just wanna be effective for my group, whatever group I play in. If it's in my static or in pugs.

So if you can play holo and necro right now, both at 90-95% what would you play?If you now say necro, I don't want to ever have you in my group, because that sounds like: I don't care, I just do what I want, I'm not playing for the group.

This doesn't help you build a case that you're not elitist. You can play for the group and play Necromancer, so long as the group has different priorities than always being meta or only wanting to do speed clears.

@Nimon.7840 said:As long as necro isn't on par golem DPS wise. People will always look down on necro. That's just how it is.3k more pve-dps wouldn't hurt anywhere.Anet just has to work more with the skill split.

I mean, they already did it for scourge (icd on dhuumfire)Why can't they make it so necro does 33k DPS as well?

Likely because it wouldn't work. DPS doesn't really touch upon the core problems and just buffing DPS wouldn't resolve any problem. Which is the problem, people focus too much on DPS and that limits a lot of potential build types that could be utilized to do raids.

Sure go ahead and get a group full of people with let's say: dire gear and play a power build.Or even play soldiers gear with power build. You won't be able to kill the bosses due to heavy enrage mechanics.

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:The problem I have. We accepted almost everything in our static when we were only 8 or 9 people, even power reapers.We all gave them a chance, but from my experience, we had one good reaper, and 40 bad ones (not only raids, also fractals).

yes, thats exactly what i was talking about and more reason that necros gets "excluded" than the balance issue, at least not directly.

This here also highlights why skill splits and increased DPS doesn't solve the problem. If Necromancer attracts a lot of bad players, and we know it attracts some, then DPS isn't going to help, at all. So you pretty much answer your question @Nimon.7840 when you ask why they can't do 33k DPS. 33k DPS wouldn't make a Necro player inherent better and if part of the reason they get kicked from content is due to how bad the perceived majority of the players are then folks would still not want them. This is one of the reasons why I keep saying that part of the problem is social in nature and one of the reasons why I say you can't lay all the blame at the feat of ANet. They don't make a player bad.

Oh. Even if anet doesn't deserve all the blame, anet deserves most of the blame, because THEY made necro, how necro is. Not the community.If the community made necro, focus, dagger, staff had all been reworked.

Anet gave necro minions to afk farm/brain dead afk play through content.

In a shooter. Would you play the class that has to shoot the enemy 5 times to kill, while every other class only has to shoot 2times?Maybe yes in solo play. But what about group play?(oh and you're also unable to use medpacs on allies, while other classes have to shoot 5 times, but can even ressurect dead allies)

[Agrippa.1693]

@Conqueror.3682 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:It doesn't matter, these are just the minority of people who want the absolute best, there are other lfgs out there to go too that get through the content as easily

Edit: Just wanted to point out that from posts previous to this, DragonFury is and always will be bias towards necro where if its not the best class its worthless

@Dace.8173 said:That's not really relevant. No one is disputing that it happens so continued posting of pics of it serve no purpose other than to make the conversation about the individual not knowing how to group as opposed to one about how to solve problems and mitigate difficulties.

I just wanna know, being relevant or not for you, so, does this happen to other professions? you know it or you call it irrelevant because you dont know it?

I think he/she thinks it's irrelevant because these questions might criticise his/her theory that it has nothing to do with balance.Cause I don't think you can hardly find any screenshots and/or any other proof that shows this kind of behaviour towards other professions. Not now, not even in the history of the PvE endgame. And if you do find it, it's definitely not going to be one of the elite professions: Mesmer, Warrior, Ranger (since Druid), Ele and in lesser extent Guardian.This is also exactly the reason why I do think it's a balancing issue, which might be able to be solved several ways, but which imo is the most easiest to solve at the core, being ANet itself. And yea, achieving perfect balance is either VERY complex or VERY easy (let them all be exactly the same: also very boring, btw), but there are other ways.Something I have been a huge advocate of since the beginning is a fiercely rotating system every 2 or 3 months. Optimal DPS shifts significantly every 2 (or 3) months. Best support is different every 2 months. Most Effective Tactic Available to counter a boss, wing or full clear changes greatly every 2 or 3 months!!! You already see major META sites (like Quantify back in the days and Snowcrows, Metabattle, etc.) dropping or falling behind after every single small update ANet pushes through. I believe they will pretty much all seize to exist or change significantly by design even, once these updates come far more regularly and gamechanging every single time! At least in PvE! Up to a point there is no META anymore, it really doesn't matter what you play, you'll be flavor of the month at some stage, and we really don't know if you're that optimal or not! I've also got a feeling ANet is not doing that at the moment mainly because they see the average gamer still as that mildly autistic person that can't stand big changes in their day to day lives and/or their precious game(s). I believe that has changed significantly the last decades, though!!! (just my gut feeling, not based on facts and figures, of course!)

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Conqueror.3682" said:I just wanna know, being relevant or not for you, so, does this happen to other professions? you know it or you call it irrelevant because you dont know it?

Having some professions excluded happened, happen and will most likely happen in the futur. In the vanilla game it was rangers and necromancers due to the very bad reputation of bearbows and necromancers not being adapted to the content. With HoT it depend a lot of the "metas" but necromancers, guardian and revenants probably faced their share of rejection. And now, I believe necromancers and sometime guardians still face this kind of things from time to time.

There have been a big shift of attitude in regard of PvE end game between the vanilla game and the xpacs. In the vanilla game the meta was deeply oriented toward 2 things: skipping mobs stealthily while moving fast and burning bosses as fast as possible. With the xpacs, the meta PvE end game became a lot more straigthforward in burning bosses efficiently and all the stealthy stuff disappeared.

That said, a lot of tools lost their purpose in PvE for one reason or another which led the "meta" to become more and more focused on killing the single big bad villain. For example:

• Combo fire fields/balst used to be the bread and butter of might generation.
• Reflect/projectile destruction used to be vital in some encounters
• Evade skills used to be essential.
• Mobility and group stealth used to help a lot.
• ... etc.

Those changes made things a lot easier for players on one side and at the same time it allowed ANet to build artificial challenge. The issue is that by reducing the "need" for those tools, ANet overly simplified things for players and reduced the need for professions that are the least efficient. In short they indirectly created this "meta" of efficiency over utility.

When HoT arrived, necromancers didn't even think about support, they were desperately asking for cleaving damage because that's what was asked for dungeons. And we just got that with reaper, the tool for dungeoning just before raids appear in the game and change the fondamental things needed in PvE end game. On another hand, ranger lucked it out by asking for more support (when they, objectively, were already swimming into support) and quickly became an essential part of the support trinity when raids arrived.

Pretty quickly, the raid meta showed that lacking some interesting additionnal support when you are not top dps was enough to make it difficult to find a dps spot in raid and that what gutted the reaper and the guardian. (If you wonder what happened to the revenant, it's mainly painful balance that ended up making him unwelcome)

PoF then arrived with it's new stuff but unexpectedly, the support combo chrono/druid ended up being very hard to bulge and scourge/FB/revenant mostly failed to be efficient enough to be seen as "equal" in synergy and efficiency in the support role. Which left them mainly fighting for a hard to get dps spots in the "meta". That said, revenant have some great potential now for the dps spot which make him accepted and the scourge at release was undeniably dealing crazy amount of damages.

But now, seen as subpar damage dealers without nice "extra" the necromancers and the guardians are mostly in the same spot as they were before PoF. Often disregarded due to not being outstanding in the gamemode and struggling to build experience in raids. We are at a point where the fact that players tend to ask other players to play another more desired profession hurted the global experience in raid of players on these least desired profession. We are at a point where some players prefer to avoid a whole profession by fear that the player lack raiding experience on this specific profession and bring down the performance of the squad.

The problem is mainly how deep the "meta" mentality is now imprinted into GW2's community leaving little room to breath for "originality". The willfull individual will just say that the content can be completed with anything and they are right. But there is a dark part of the community which is less open and will just refuse a player based on it's chosen profession regardless of whether he is good at playing it or not.

[Dace.8173]

@Conqueror.3682 said:

I just wanna know, being relevant or not for you, so, does this happen to other professions? you know it or you call it irrelevant because you dont know it?

I called it irrelevant because it irrelevant. It actually does happen to other professions but that is not relevant to anything other than to whine about a fact everyone already agrees with. Who it happens to the most varies from time to time. It is rarely just one profession that suffers auto kicks and as I've stated numerous times in numerous conversations the attitudes of the PUG community elimnate a great many Elites and builds that could do the material but people won't take on their team for various reasons.

Still not relevant though since no one disputes the fact that it happens.

@Nimon.7840 said:

Sure go ahead and get a group full of people with let's say: dire gear and play a power build.Or even play soldiers gear with power build. You won't be able to kill the bosses due to heavy enrage mechanics.

Several videos, stats, and testimonials have been posted that indicate that Necromancers can and does do the end game content. We have actual video evidence of that.

Oh. Even if anet doesn't deserve all the blame, anet deserves most of the blame, because THEY made necro, how necro is. Not the community.If the community made necro, focus, dagger, staff had all been reworked.

Anet gave necro minions to afk farm/brain dead afk play through content.

In a shooter. Would you play the class that has to shoot the enemy 5 times to kill, while every other class only has to shoot 2times?Maybe yes in solo play. But what about group play?(oh and you're also unable to use medpacs on allies, while other classes have to shoot 5 times, but can even ressurect dead allies)

That is a really weak excuse to lay most of the blame on someone. If the community made Necro it would be a complete mess. There is no unified vision guiding the community on the issue and lacking that there is no way to create nothing but a mess of a faction.

Oh, and yes I would play your highly specialized situation if I found it fun. I really only care about having fun and so long as I'm having fun mechanical might is a secondary concern. I was never any good at shooters anyway so even if I played a strong faction it would likely take me five shots to do what others do with one. I do PvP with professions I know aren't meta because I find them to be fun. I go into WvW with builds I know put me at a disadvantage because that's what I want to play at the moment. I am clearly not driven by the same motivations you are when it comes to playing the game the way I want to.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I think he/she thinks it's irrelevant because these questions might criticise his/her theory that it has nothing to do with balance.Cause I don't think you can hardly find any screenshots and/or any other proof that shows this kind of behaviour towards other professions. Not now, not even in the history of the PvE endgame. And if you do find it, it's definitely not going to be one of the elite professions: Mesmer, Warrior, Ranger (since Druid), Ele and in lesser extent Guardian.This is also exactly the reason why I do think it's a balancing issue, which might be able to be solved several ways, but which imo is the most easiest to solve at the core, being ANet itself. And yea, achieving perfect balance is either VERY complex or VERY easy (let them all be exactly the same: also very boring, btw), but there are other ways.Something I have been a huge advocate of since the beginning is a fiercely rotating system every 2 or 3 months. Optimal DPS shifts significantly every 2 (or 3) months. Best support is different every 2 months. Most Effective Tactic Available to counter a boss, wing or full clear changes greatly every 2 or 3 months!!! You already see major META sites (like Quantify back in the days and Snowcrows, Metabattle, etc.) dropping or falling behind after every single small update ANet pushes through. I believe they will pretty much all seize to exist or change significantly by design even, once these updates come far more regularly and gamechanging every single time! At least in PvE! Up to a point there is no META anymore, it really doesn't matter what you play, you'll be flavor of the month at some stage, and we really don't know if you're that optimal or not! I've also got a feeling ANet is not doing that at the moment mainly because they see the average gamer still as that mildly autistic person that can't stand big changes in their day to day lives and/or their precious game(s). I believe that has changed significantly the last decades, though!!! (just my gut feeling, not based on facts and figures, of course!)

No, no I've been very clear why I think it's irrelevant. I even said why in my initial response. So you can make up whatever reason you think for why I made my claim but unless it's what I've already stated then you're wrong on my motivations. Being as how you don't actually pay attention to the nature of my comments anything you have to say about why I answered that way is you projecting. I have stated balance issues on numerous occasions in numerous threads. I just don't blame balance 100%. As a matter of fact, you've read so little of what I've actually said on the matter that you pretty much missed the conversation I had with @"Axl.8924" in this thread about the balance aspects of it all. So the answer to the question doesn't undermine my theory because you don't even know what my theory is.

Read for context next time.

Also, sites like Metabattle and Snowcrows will never go away. The meta doesn't change fast enough to make them obsolete and it is highly unlikely that that ANet would engage in a rotating system of that nature as it would lower the overall quality of balance while angering a lot of people. As a matter of fact, for most professions, the meta doesn't change all that much. Power Herald has been the only meta build for Revenant for what feels like ages now. Holosmith has been strong for some time now. Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage have been strong all summer, into the fall, and now going into the winter with Chrono taking a hit (to which Chrono players are already complaining about). It is also not the case that Anet see's its players as "mildly autistic .... that can't stand big changes." The community proves it every balance patch that they don't even like small changes. Each patch there is a new round of "we now suck, why does ANet hate us, balance in this game is a joke" threads somewhere on the forums. The first page of the Necromancer and Elementalist forums is almost nothing but those types of threads.

ANet doesn't make frequent big changes because it thinks something untrue of its customers. It doesn't make frequent big changes because A. those are actually bad for a games long-term health and B. players don't like it. They say as much every week.

[DragonFury.6243]

Wasn't even CMs

[Obtena.7952]

I guess you still need to L2P with teams that take necros. Nothing happened this patch that would have changed that. On the other hand, nothing this patch changed the fact that people that embrace the philosophy of playing how you want still get teams either. #yourchoice

[Sigmoid.7082]

@"DragonFury.6243" said:Wasn't even CMs

But isn't that 1/7?6/7 don't say no necro.3/7 already have a necro in the party.

[DragonFury.6243]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"DragonFury.6243" said:Wasn't even CMs

But isn't that 1/7?6/7 don't say no necro.3/7 already have a necro in the party.

But isn't that 1/9?8/9 profession don't dont have to deal with this hate

[Obtena.7952]

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:Wasn't even CMs

But isn't that 1/7?6/7 don't say no necro.3/7 already have a necro in the party.

But isn't that 1/9?8/9 profession don't dont have to deal with this hate

That doesn't make sense .. I don't deal with that hate. for me it's 0/9 professions that deal with hate. What's your excuse again?

[Farkon.2170]

@Obtena.7952 said:I guess you still need to L2P with teams that take necros. Nothing happened this patch that would have changed that. On the other hand, nothing this patch changed the fact that people that embrace the philosophy of playing how you want still get teams either. #yourchoice

Read the patch notes again, pReaper/Scourge got nerfed disguised as alibi buffs so there's less DPS and sustainability.Now if anyone's paided attention then there's less reason to want a Necro.

[XECOR.2814]

Guys, everything is fine. There needs to be something at the bottom. And its us since 6years. But thats fine. No worries. If you want to raid well, you should make a new character having superior capabilities. If you main a character and only want to play that character through all of the content then sadly you cant because you wont have tools to do so.

Btw you also cant pvp and wvw without suppport. Just sayin. So if you made a necromancer without having a dedicated support(which 90% of the people dont have) then you will only face disappointment and regret.

People say this game is alt friendly but they forget that its also punishes you for having mains.

The point is theres no need to ask for dps. Just move on to something better because apparently thats how we are supposed to play this game.

[DragonFury.6243]

@XECOR.2814 said:Guys, everything is fine. There needs to be something at the bottom. And its us since 6years. But thats fine. No worries. If you want to raid well, you should make a new character having superior capabilities. If you main a character and only want to play that character through all of the content then sadly you cant because you wont have tools to do so.

Btw you also cant pvp and wvw without suppport. Just sayin. So if you made a necromancer without having a dedicated support(which 90% of the people dont have) then you will only face disappointment and regret.

People say this game is alt friendly but they forget that its also punishes you for having mains.

The point is theres no need to ask for dps. Just move on to something better because apparently thats how we are supposed to play this game.

i know but after i played so many MMORPG i dont like to play warrior , knight , mage , sorcerer , defender or ranger that why i wanted to player necromancer so i searched for a game that have necromancer as a class and i found that GW2 have the better one so that why i play GW2 but even here is unwantedmay be i ll go for Mesmer it is unique after all but that doesn't mean i gave up on necromancer

[Dace.8173]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@"DragonFury.6243" said:Wasn't even CMs

But isn't that 1/7?6/7 don't say no necro.3/7 already have a necro in the party.

I'm actually somewhat curious what the point of the pics are at this point. It's not like no one disagrees that it happens so it just seems to be sympathy ploys.

@XECOR.2814 said:Guys, everything is fine. There needs to be something at the bottom. And its us since 6years. But thats fine. No worries. If you want to raid well, you should make a new character having superior capabilities. If you main a character and only want to play that character through all of the content then sadly you cant because you wont have tools to do so.

Btw you also cant pvp and wvw without suppport. Just sayin. So if you made a necromancer without having a dedicated support(which 90% of the people dont have) then you will only face disappointment and regret.

People say this game is alt friendly but they forget that its also punishes you for having mains.

The point is theres no need to ask for dps. Just move on to something better because apparently thats how we are supposed to play this game.

You do realize that most folks in this conversation aren't saying all is ok right? You seem to be creating a pointless strawman against arguments not even being made. You're free to play something else but I know plenty of happy Necromancer mains who do well in all modes of gameplay.

Also, there is nothing wrong with having support in PvP or WvW. These are team competitive modes that focus less how awesome a single player is but how awesome a team is. A good team will actually have one or two folks who rely on support in order to do their job properly. I've played support in PvP before and there is nothing wrong with need the help of other people. I focus on doing my thing really well while other people focus on their thing and we win as a team.

[Obtena.7952]

@Farkon.2170 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I guess you still need to L2P with teams that take necros. Nothing happened this patch that would have changed that. On the other hand, nothing this patch changed the fact that people that embrace the philosophy of playing how you want still get teams either. #yourchoice

Read the patch notes again, pReaper/Scourge got nerfed disguised as alibi buffs so there's less DPS and sustainability.Now if anyone's paided attention then there's less reason to want a Necro.

I read it and for some reason, those changes don't affect people that have learn to team with necro ... HUM. Must be a conspiracy against you guys.