What happened in pug raiding? Skill level is really low (RANT THREAD)

[sigur.9453]

First, thank you for the insight of the "new raider expierience", i will comment on thought below

@"Froh.3072" said:I'm one of thoses "low skill players" as I'm really new to raids.So I'll kinda explain why we do suck (or at least, why I do suck right now), feel free to dismiss my opinion or not, but remember that I took on my time to write this post so you do not go into a full circle of "raids are too easy, others players are too bad, they don't deserve...". Also remember it is HOW I perceive the game as a rather "new" player. So if I'm wrong, that means that the game does something bad at teaching me some stuff :

true, the game up till lvl 80, teach you nothing exept WASD and general keybindings. or to be exact, not until the point where more knowledge in reguired (Fractal T3+, Raids, Competetive Pvp, & Wvw) and then you need to inform yourself outside the game or if you are lucky someone will explain it to you. poor job of anet, but the majority likes the rather casual aspect of 90% of the game , so they do simply not cary it appears.

-> Game is not readable enough. This is the main point, and this is probably due to the number of differents mechanics at one time on the boss + players skills (which we can hardly see) + combos of skills. Sound does help (indicate big hits etc), the red area too (even if you have to know the timing beforehand as the dodge is short). For the rest, I have hard time to see if I'm targeted by something, if I'll explode, etc... Oh ok I have a red zone growing around me, then I'll go away from my mates. Oh wait, someone of my mate have to come on me. The sentence "Choose your allies wisely", yeah, thanks, it helps me a lot to understand what's going on.

i have to dissagree here, at least for raids. i find dungeons harder in that case since there a no red cicles of death. you actually have to look at animations for that.Edit: oh and you can always tick the LOD thingy in the options, less visual clutter (not perfect though)

-> Bosses have really strange mechanics. This is okay, refreshing and kinda fun, but the fact that you can't really do any boss without reading about all of his 10 patterns of attacks beforehand because they are not to be understood easily is weird. Maybe Anet could introduce thoses mechanics by not one shotting you when you fail at the beginning (and could increase in damage each time).

-> Extra skills given for a fight can't really be read during the actual fight. Extra points when you actually have to earn this specific extra skill during the fight by doing something like catching blue bullets while escaping red ones.

There are no strange mechanics, there are only new ones.and thats the main challenge of raids (by design) to overcome these mechanics.for example, if my group is doing a boss for the first time, we don´t just go in and start dps rotation, wipe and repeat, we do the followingPing buffs on BossPing eventually debuffs on players.Ping special action key.WIPE by special mechanic.Read the above and talk about it.start again, dps till mechanic, try to solve it, wipe, repeat.

this goes on for hours, and frankly speacking thats THE MOST FUN times raids can give you.clearly you miss something when you only "reading about it" beforhand.thats why i allways recomment: for your own group with players on your exp level. sure itneeds longer, but its also more fun/rewarding to do.

-> Stuff. It is hard for someone new, to come up with more than exotic pieces. It is probably fine when you're doing T4 fractal all the days, but I'm currently stuck into lower fractal tiers because I have only 2 rings and 1 necklace to put agony on. When I say "stuck", I probably have ways to unstuck myself, but thoses ways are kinda obscure at the moment without reading a full guide on how to do it. Then you'll tell me "Hey you can do thoses raids in full exo", yeah, but it's harder. And if the harder part is for the new players rather than the veterans. Yeah, I can guess why they're bored (or why they suck).

first set of asc. gear is the hardest one, yes. but in case you didn´t know, there are arhievments that give you asc. armour and weapons. they still are time consuming, but you may even get some fun out of it.

-> Rotations. Mesmer, which is my main currently have a "26" rotation combo to learn as a chrono to be useful (on snowcrows at the moment). The fact that the game depends on learning thoses rotations before everything else as you'll really be useless without them doesn't really help. Could have more "easiers specs" on each class while still being relevant to boss fight would have helped.

if your are going for support chrono, i can guaranty you, everyone would love to get you in theit static/pug group, if you manage it half decently.also whilce SC rotations are "optimal" there are other ways to play your charakter and achiev equal results. don´t "try to hard" make it so you are confy playing it. (nobody is expecting 100%)

So, I don't mind trying again and again a boss. Doing dailies to slowly, really slowly grind stuff to be ABLE to grind it faster. And I certainly don't expect to master a boss the first time I come against. It's just that I'd like an easier time to go in, rather than the current state. But this mostly list my current gripes with the game so far.

its sounds you already have the right mindset, but are afraid of failing (sorry if my assuming goes to far), but i can assure youthat if you find the right ppl/guild you can be a seasoned raider in no time.

Edit: lots of typos, but inet is really slow, and i can´t fix it in a "reasonable" time. sorry for the hard read

[Froh.3072]

Well I will not quote your sentences one by one.But I have to precise a bit : This is not a random rant from someone that can't do any stuff, I just find, that, as a game, a lot can be improved and could be better. I have the guild, I'll improve with training. That's not the point here. It's just, that I can understand that there's less players now than before and this is what can block you at lower level of entries.I assure you that compared to a LOT OF games out there, this one is not the most readable. The fact that dungeons are harder to read does not mean it's okay either.

About thoses strange mechanics, you tell me there is not, only new ones. Well, I don't see how novelty can't be seen as strange. There's a lot of mechanics that you don't see at all during this game or another game, and that just pop out of nowhere. Again, this is fine. It's just that they're not readable enough (or explained at all).

[Draco.9480]

one word, FEEDERS.also anet spoiled all those bad players with easy content that people won't think for 'emselves at all nor react to anything. and just press buttons randomly and play garbage builds that don't even work against those specific bosses nor use proper compositions. people don't even look at the ground and feed the boss all the time and blaming toxicity while they fail the super basic.

[Obtena.7952]

Since the start of the game, Anet has failed to prepare casual and/or PUG level players for what they will experience in Dungeons, Fracs or Raids. Even if they dumb it down, most of these people will still not understand what is necessary; Raids are simply too sensitive to individual mistakes to make them open to these kinds of players. It's not even about the best build or comps at this point; I've always said, you can't put a bad player in a meta build and win. Feeding bad players meta builds and hoping they improve has always been a fallacy. Where has that gotten the game after 5 years?

[polvere.2805]

@"Froh.3072"It's clear that you are not part of the "bad players" that i talked about in my original post: you are a new player and you are just trying to learn which is totally fine! The point is that after you learn you should not be failing certain mechanics or underperform on your role. In every party i joined me or the commander were looking for some players with 250 li+: players that SHOULD at least know what they should be doing and perform it to a certain degree, 250 li means that it's at least 3 months that you are costantly playing raids every week, it's just absurd that you don't know at least the basics after 3 months. I don't expect SC bench on every boss, but i do expect that people don't do stupid mistakes that CLEARLY show that they don't know the fight which is required to kill a boss.

Don't make me started on fakers...if at least a faker could pull off his weight i could care less about LI, but if a dude with actual LI can't pull his weight i really doubt that a dishonest person that has even less experience could achieve something...i usually accept people that ask me to join with lower LI than required if they are honest about it and know the bosses. They usually are the better players because they know that they have to prove their skills to stay in the group.

For the learning part: raids are not that hard, trust me, i played mmos where group content is WAY harder than GW and with a lot less tips. It's just that it's TOTALLY different from the rest of the game. GW2 is basically solo playing with the chanche to meet people in open world. Coordination is not required, you just do your thing and everything works fine. Even fractals or dungeon don't really require coordination to clear. Maybe you are slower than an optimized group but that's it. The BIG difference is that in raid you have to juggle aroung with your party member, and if you don't you lose. Simple.This thing it's NORMAL in every mmo, apparently a big part of the GW2 playerbase instead thinks that it's not. In every other mmo you have to go read guides to raid, gear up your chars, learn the boss attacks etc. etc.Apparently what should be a big feature of the game that should help players to get into it is indeed a problem: you can play 90% of the game having fun casually without having to go read guides to do every thing (a lot of mmo are like that tbh), but as soon as some preparation is needed problems arise!

For the visual clutter: you just have to get used to it and juggle a little bit with your video settings, it was the same for me at the start. After 3 weeks of trying bosses i was already seeing every mechanics. Usually watching a video where you are not actively playing helps understand.

The problem here is that people want to get carried trough content, and this is absurd to me. Why do you even play that mode ?? The core problem is the design of a lot of fights where basically 3-4 people are doing the boss while the others are playing the DPS golem. Usually those people are the supports that usually are indeed the best players in the squad, simply because they MUST know the boss well to perform their role.

[Talindra.4958]

@henryTotally agree on every word you said.Back in day one it was a total change.. beating vg was a thing, then gorse was a shock then sab was mad.. those days, 50li was a big thing, everyone started at the same level. .. there were only few that had consistent fc since week one.. and one li difference in early week really prove good play .. now a days, you can carry a newbie two months later they are near completion for their leg armour and ofc experience wise it's much much different to the players who get their first leg in the very early raid.. in every pug group you get a mix of different experience level of players.. likelihood of getting boss cleared for newbie are higher than early days of raid. Having said that, it doesn't mean every pug with 250li are not good enough.. they are good enough to progress for better.. but you see the difference in experience and team play level for players with 250li in the early release of raid and new player with 250li.That is why I said if I join a 300li group.. I will not expect and just play.. just enjoy it :) if you don't enjoy it.. then just say I'm sorry I have to go.. leave take a break if needed and cone back later.@froh the bad players to me are players with bad attitude. Newbie to raid I would say players with little experience and it will improve only by continue playing and training.. wiping :) reading researching and understand each and every mechanic.. you will only get better.. I have a good advice. You just have to be very honest to commander. PM him and said what you can do.. .. good commander will help you. Also as @Cyninja.2954 said you want a better experience in raid, join a raid training guild. Ppl should be helpful there.. but I am not 100% sure if all raid training guild are kind. You just have to look around I guess. Bare in mind many ppl who likes to do raid do not have the time to play.. and some has shift work commitments so they aren't flexible to sticking to scheduled raid at peak hours.. ppl like these are usually going for pug raid.. I have met many ppl who are good and capable in pug. And let me say again.. you get to meet many diff ppl in pug :) sometimes I like it tht way xD

[hellsqueen.3045]

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:You answered it yourself, most seasoned raiders only do it with their statics and the other bunch of seasoned raiders are leaving or flat out don't make an effort anymore lest they end up stressed like you during their pugging. There is no new blood at all, everyone either gives up as soon as they realize they have to train for the content before doing the content, which doesn't matter if you think this is OK and natural, as I also do, but this is unique to GW2 even among other raiding games, and it is directly related to the lack of vertical progression to trivialize encounters. Or, they don't even try to start because they have a predisposition to not get involved in organized group content.

A high selling point of GW2 since release was the play how you want and when you want motto. It has always been a game friendly to players who play sporadically and leave for several months before returning again. Even fractals follow this with a reliable, tiered structure and sporadic updates that allow people to get back on it soon as they return to the game. sPvP and WvW are just as friendly to plug&play grouping even if you happen to be in an organized guild. Raids changed this logic and remain the only content to shake up this established feature of the game, while at the same time not "going all the way" and actually presenting the challenge that raiders have asked for. Said challenge would admittedly even further diminish the population anyway, so not worth it. In short, nothing happened to pug raiding, it was always bad but now you have become reasonably good amidst everyone else who hasn't, in a game that is not even about raiding, let alone pug raiding.

I agree with a lot of what this person says.

All the new blood gets alienated if they don't want to conform to this constant push for people to be whatever the Meta is on their character.Not everyone wants to become this cookie cutter version of their class.This game was supposed to allow you to break the molds of other MMO's by allowing you to really be whatever you want via stats and builds.Yet, there are certain classes with certain builds no matter how good someone has made it that people will not give a chance too.

I want to participate in raids, but I don't want to do it with the community that is there that expects you to be whatever they want you to be. I want to take people through who don't care about failure and have a build that is right for them and see what we can do.The community at large doesn't allow people to be whatever they want in raids which goes against the rest of the game.Heck, there isn't even different difficulties in the sense like other games with raids in them, that can allow the average player to get through them but with slightly lowered reward that can help them train up their basics with whatever they have and it can help them work up to harder difficulties if they so wish to because learning the main mechanics will be the focus with the bosses health pool and attack damage lower and a small safety net to allow time for people to find their feet. For example, one of the bosses that knock you off a platform. For new players, dodging the attacks isn't easy and it can take a while to get the rhythm but even one small mistake could mess them up. Lower difficulties could have like a small wall block to stop people from getting knocked off and instead knock them down longer so the incentive to learn is still there until they no longer fall off, etc.

Raids took all the elitist people from dungeons who wanted the maximum DPS to kill level 30 dungeons in like 2 minutes and gave them a place to just hate everyone who doesn't do what they want. It's pretty crap.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@hellsqueen.3045 said:

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:You answered it yourself, most seasoned raiders only do it with their statics and the other bunch of seasoned raiders are leaving or flat out don't make an effort anymore lest they end up stressed like you during their pugging. There is no new blood at all, everyone either gives up as soon as they realize they have to

train for the content before doing the content

, which doesn't matter if you think this is OK and natural, as I also do, but this is unique to GW2 even among other raiding games, and it is directly related to the lack of vertical progression to trivialize encounters.

Or

, they don't even try to start because they have a predisposition to not get involved in organized group content.

A high selling point of GW2 since release was the play how you want and

when

you want motto. It has always been a game friendly to players who play sporadically and leave for several months before returning again. Even fractals follow this with a reliable, tiered structure and sporadic updates that allow people to get back on it soon as they return to the game. sPvP and WvW are just as friendly to plug&play grouping even if you happen to be in an organized guild. Raids changed this logic and remain the only content to shake up this established feature of the game, while at the same time not "going all the way" and actually presenting the challenge that raiders have asked for. Said challenge would admittedly even further diminish the population anyway, so not worth it. In short, nothing happened to pug raiding, it was always bad but now you have become reasonably good amidst everyone else who hasn't, in a game that is not even about raiding, let alone pug raiding.

I agree with a lot of what this person says.

All the new blood gets alienated if they don't want to conform to this constant push for people to be whatever the Meta is on their character.Not everyone wants to become this cookie cutter version of their class.This game was supposed to allow you to break the molds of other MMO's by allowing you to really be whatever you want via stats and builds.Yet, there are certain classes with certain builds no matter how good someone has made it that people will not give a chance too.

I want to participate in raids, but I don't want to do it with the community that is there that expects you to be whatever they want you to be. I want to take people through who don't care about failure and have a build that is right for them and see what we can do.The community at large doesn't allow people to be whatever they want in raids which goes against the rest of the game.Heck, there isn't even different difficulties in the sense like other games with raids in them, that can allow the average player to get through them but with slightly lowered reward that can help them train up their basics with whatever they have and it can help them work up to harder difficulties if they so wish to because learning the main mechanics will be the focus with the bosses health pool and attack damage lower and a small safety net to allow time for people to find their feet. For example, one of the bosses that knock you off a platform. For new players, dodging the attacks isn't easy and it can take a while to get the rhythm but even one small mistake could mess them up. Lower difficulties could have like a small wall block to stop people from getting knocked off and instead knock them down longer so the incentive to learn is still there until they no longer fall off, etc.

Raids took all the elitist people from dungeons who wanted the maximum DPS to kill level 30 dungeons in like 2 minutes and gave them a place to just hate everyone who doesn't do what they want. It's pretty kitten.

Yes you are right in this game was meant to be easy and the sooner anet nerf raids the better to as easy as player want it to be.and nerf all meta builds to the lowest possible combo so all will have exact same dps that will be best for all. And remove mechanics wich forces the use of specific skills like cc. (This irony since core game could be beaten by autoattacking, the game was too easy didnt engage the player very much while many ignored 90% of their abillities. Elitism will always exist one way to fix it is limit everyone to exact same amoth of dps, heals, health and amor So no class would be better.

[sigur.9453]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@hellsqueen.3045 said:

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:You answered it yourself, most seasoned raiders only do it with their statics and the other bunch of seasoned raiders are leaving or flat out don't make an effort anymore lest they end up stressed like you during their pugging. There is no new blood at all, everyone either gives up as soon as they realize they have to

train for the content before doing the content

, which doesn't matter if you think this is OK and natural, as I also do, but this is unique to GW2 even among other raiding games, and it is directly related to the lack of vertical progression to trivialize encounters.

Or

, they don't even try to start because they have a predisposition to not get involved in organized group content.

A high selling point of GW2 since release was the play how you want and

when

you want motto. It has always been a game friendly to players who play sporadically and leave for several months before returning again. Even fractals follow this with a reliable, tiered structure and sporadic updates that allow people to get back on it soon as they return to the game. sPvP and WvW are just as friendly to plug&play grouping even if you happen to be in an organized guild. Raids changed this logic and remain the only content to shake up this established feature of the game, while at the same time not "going all the way" and actually presenting the challenge that raiders have asked for. Said challenge would admittedly even further diminish the population anyway, so not worth it. In short, nothing happened to pug raiding, it was always bad but now you have become reasonably good amidst everyone else who hasn't, in a game that is not even about raiding, let alone pug raiding.

I agree with a lot of what this person says.

All the new blood gets alienated if they don't want to conform to this constant push for people to be whatever the Meta is on their character.Not everyone wants to become this cookie cutter version of their class.This game was supposed to allow you to break the molds of other MMO's by allowing you to really be whatever you want via stats and builds.Yet, there are certain classes with certain builds no matter how good someone has made it that people will not give a chance too.

I want to participate in raids, but I don't want to do it with the community that is there that expects you to be whatever they want you to be. I want to take people through who don't care about failure and have a build that is right for them and see what we can do.The community at large doesn't allow people to be whatever they want in raids which goes against the rest of the game.Heck, there isn't even different difficulties in the sense like other games with raids in them, that can allow the average player to get through them but with slightly lowered reward that can help them train up their basics with whatever they have and it can help them work up to harder difficulties if they so wish to because learning the main mechanics will be the focus with the bosses health pool and attack damage lower and a small safety net to allow time for people to find their feet. For example, one of the bosses that knock you off a platform. For new players, dodging the attacks isn't easy and it can take a while to get the rhythm but even one small mistake could mess them up. Lower difficulties could have like a small wall block to stop people from getting knocked off and instead knock them down longer so the incentive to learn is still there until they no longer fall off, etc.

Raids took all the elitist people from dungeons who wanted the maximum DPS to kill level 30 dungeons in like 2 minutes and gave them a place to just hate everyone who doesn't do what they want. It's pretty kitten.

Yes you are right in this game was meant to be easy and the sooner anet nerf raids the better to as easy as player want it to be.and nerf all meta builds to the lowest possible combo so all will have exact same dps that will be best for all. And remove mechanics wich forces the use of specific skills like cc.

i heard for the player that want easier content there is this small niche project called open world and living story. could be wrong here, just rumors from an elitist ingame friend.

[Grogba.6204]

You know, the scary thing that I cannot tell if Laila is full on sarcastic/trolling or genuinely believes what he/she writes on the boards.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Grogba.6204 said:You know, the scary thing that I cannot tell if Laila is full on sarcastic/trolling or genuinely believes what he/she writes on the boards.

Its sarcasm honestly

[innocens.1582]

@hellsqueen.3045i understand what your saying.You need to have a group of people who want to do that, and i havent found them yet in this game.My gw1 guild was like that.

Dont get me wrong, i understand that not all ( maybe even most) players might not want to do this, and wanne use the meta to do raids,nothing wrong with that.

[Astralporing.1957]

Heh, it seems that i was way too optimistic in my post above, when i assumed that the third group of potentially problematic pugs (veteran and experienced players that have already done the clear that week in their static, and are pugging to play around, or test new stuff) at least won't be intentionally harming the run.

As the recent Teapot case (mentioned in another thread on the front page) shows, they may end up doing exactly that. In that case i'd rather have an unexperienced pug wanting to be carried, because they at least don't intend to cause problems.

Edit: seems that the teapot thread has been quietly removed.

[polvere.2805]

Why does every thread about raids get derailed into "we need an easy mode for raids" ? There is already a thread on this subject.

@"hellsqueen.3045"NO. Thie is just the same mentality that there is in open world. It's just absurd that you want to be able to clear and "hard encounter" (or at least harder than the rest of the game) with whatever random build and random stats you come up with. It would mean that the encounter is so stupidly easy that even naked player could clear it which is just stupid in an MMO. TBH this is the kind of mentality that i was ranting about in my original post. The mentality to play whatever you want however you like and hope to suceed coff get carried coff, while making other 9 persons waste precious gaming time. I don't know if you have the whole day to play Gw2 and get things done, i have not.I am not an elitist, if you play something off meta and it works then fine for me. But there are minimum standards that your off meta build must reach. Don't expect me to welcome a full cleric shout warrior with open hands in my raid team.

OT BEGINSThis is the only thing i say about easy mode raids: it's totally unnecessary, it's not that hard to organize a training team and the tools to do it are there, you just need to NOT BE UNSOCIAL. if an easy raid mode means less time on developing new content then i am totally against it. If not i am ok with it, just remove rewards from it. If you train for raids you usually spend some time wiping over and over ---> no rewards. Why should you be rewarded for having cleared an even dumbed down encounter that was not that hard in the first place and required just some practise ?In the end it's clear that it's not a solution, fractals have easy mode (t1-2-3) when you get to tier 4 you get those random players that don't even know their class and you guess how the hell they made it there. Community solution ? 100 CM kp groups to filter those guys. What has changed ?New players don't need easy mode, they need to just be patient as all of us raiders have been. TBH 1 month of spending 2-3 hours a week to train is enough to already get you in most of the encounters if you really are dedicated to it. This is an MMO where you are not supposed to get everything in little time.OT ENDS

After reading again the thread i can sum this up like this:New and old Raiders don't be retards, be honest with your experience, and actually try to play decently and improve. It's not hard and none expects you to play like SC. It's not even required to clear and encounter. Just don't be the wannabe carried boi.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@"polvere.2805" said:Why does every thread about raids get derailed into "we need an easy mode for raids" ? There is already a thread on this subject.

@"hellsqueen.3045"NO. Thie is just the same mentality that there is in open world. It's just absurd that you want to be able to clear and "hard encounter" (or at least harder than the rest of the game) with whatever random build and random stats you come up with. It would mean that the encounter is so stupidly easy that even naked player could clear it which is just stupid in an MMO. TBH this is the kind of mentality that i was ranting about in my original post. The mentality to play whatever you want however you like and hope to suceed coff get carried coff, while making other 9 persons waste precious gaming time. I don't know if you have the whole day to play Gw2 and get things done, i have not.I am not an elitist, if you play something off meta and it works then fine for me. But there are minimum standards that your off meta build must reach. Don't expect me to welcome a full cleric shout warrior with open hands in my raid team.

OT BEGINSThis is the only thing i say about easy mode raids: it's totally unnecessary, it's not that hard to organize a training team and the tools to do it are there, you just need to NOT BE UNSOCIAL. if an easy raid mode means less time on developing new content then i am totally against it. If not i am ok with it, just remove rewards from it. If you train for raids you usually spend some time wiping over and over ---> no rewards. Why should you be rewarded for having cleared an even dumbed down encounter that was not that hard in the first place and required just some practise ?In the end it's clear that it's not a solution, fractals have easy mode (t1-2-3) when you get to tier 4 you get those random players that don't even know their class and you guess how the hell they made it there. Community solution ? 100 CM kp groups to filter those guys. What has changed ?New players don't need easy mode, they need to just be patient as all of us raiders have been. TBH 1 month of spending 2-3 hours a week to train is enough to already get you in most of the encounters if you really are dedicated to it. This is an MMO where you are not supposed to get everything in little time.OT ENDS

After reading again the thread i can sum this up like this:New and old Raiders don't be kitten, be honest with your experience, and actually try to play decently and improve. It's not hard and none expects you to play like SC. It's not even required to clear and encounter. Just don't be the wannabe carried boi.

The point you made about not being unsocial is the key here, to be honest. Like it or not, the social aspect is part of the raiding experience. When raiders say they have to wait to play, they should actually take into account that waiting up on chat is already "raiding". I don't remember if I said this in here or in another thread, but saying that social shenanigans is not part of raiding is like saying that the time you spend inside a locker room with your buddies is not part of soccer or other field sports. The reality is that, for all frustrated veterans, mediocre pugs and disenfranchised newbies alike, it is likely the case that their real problem with the game mode is dealing with the social aspect more so than it is with the content difficulty.

Note that this does not happen with fractals to this point; players don't really mind (and I've been to many pugs like this) spending 2 hours to complete t4's because they made a "chill t4's LF any" post, as long as they don't have to justify themselves, change their builds or otherwise actually realize they are playing with others and communicate more than the occasional "lol". But if you have to necessarily ping your stuff (reveal things about yourself), volunteer for mechanics (put yourself into a place of responsibility inside your team), and perform according to other people's expectations, naturally you'll see that many, many players will not be willing to do just that. And of course they won't, because GW2 was proposed to them as a game where doing this was an option.

There is no solution to this IMO because it's not a problem, but rather a feature of the game mode (being intrinsically social, with all the issues and advantages it brings). GW2 was just not developed with this in mind, and to be honest, I think games are slowly but surely moving away from this model; I'm not gonna spend myself on the social commentary here, but the standard MMO group organized, "feels like a job/sport", joining with others to achieve something over the long term kind of game, is dying out.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Oh no, anet did prepare players on a incremental approach but such approach are threw out the moment they overhaul some of the things. The game is just a complete mess now.

[hellsqueen.3045]

@"polvere.2805" said:Why does every thread about raids get derailed into "we need an easy mode for raids" ? There is already a thread on this subject.

@"hellsqueen.3045"NO. Thie is just the same mentality that there is in open world. It's just absurd that you want to be able to clear and "hard encounter" (or at least harder than the rest of the game) with whatever random build and random stats you come up with. It would mean that the encounter is so stupidly easy that even naked player could clear it which is just stupid in an MMO. TBH this is the kind of mentality that i was ranting about in my original post. The mentality to play whatever you want however you like and hope to suceed coff get carried coff, while making other 9 persons waste precious gaming time. I don't know if you have the whole day to play Gw2 and get things done, i have not.I am not an elitist, if you play something off meta and it works then fine for me. But there are minimum standards that your off meta build must reach. Don't expect me to welcome a full cleric shout warrior with open hands in my raid team.

OT BEGINSThis is the only thing i say about easy mode raids: it's totally unnecessary, it's not that hard to organize a training team and the tools to do it are there, you just need to NOT BE UNSOCIAL. if an easy raid mode means less time on developing new content then i am totally against it. If not i am ok with it, just remove rewards from it. If you train for raids you usually spend some time wiping over and over ---> no rewards. Why should you be rewarded for having cleared an even dumbed down encounter that was not that hard in the first place and required just some practise ?In the end it's clear that it's not a solution, fractals have easy mode (t1-2-3) when you get to tier 4 you get those random players that don't even know their class and you guess how the hell they made it there. Community solution ? 100 CM kp groups to filter those guys. What has changed ?New players don't need easy mode, they need to just be patient as all of us raiders have been. TBH 1 month of spending 2-3 hours a week to train is enough to already get you in most of the encounters if you really are dedicated to it. This is an MMO where you are not supposed to get everything in little time.OT ENDS

After reading again the thread i can sum this up like this:New and old Raiders don't be kitten, be honest with your experience, and actually try to play decently and improve. It's not hard and none expects you to play like SC. It's not even required to clear and encounter. Just don't be the wannabe carried boi.

An easy mode, that would teach people how to respond to the mechanics without the punishment possibly causing the team to wipe and you think that is a problem? This would help people learn much better than just jumping straight in.An easy mode, providing lower rewards to a point where it would take such a huge time longer to earn anything that would result in a lot of inexperienced players to stop joining groups and not always being honest about their builds on occassion?

I tried raiding once when it came out and no one knew what the hell was going on, tried later one more time and we nearly killed the boss we were fighting but we were a group of randoms who advertised clear that we were inexperienced and made it clear we would take whatever people had so long as it fit well enough within a role we were looking for and it was mainly mechanics that messed us up and not builds because people were too often not realising when to use the dodging ability and would get knocked off or killed.

Having an easier mode or having people test their own builds in their own little groups wouldn't effect the serious players because perhaps you will never come across one another because you all go off on your own and make your tough to join groups, etc. Content in this game should not be completely inaccessible to people just because they don't want to run meta and don't have a ton of legendary insights which results in only clearing the encounters in the quickest ways possible.

I look forward to my guild building up enough interested parties willing to try and make what we have work well enough, the only thing that would help us reach that goal soon enough would be the actual encounters having an easier mode to learn the mechanics a little easier until we can decide we have developed ourselves enough and we are confident enough to try harder things as a team. This doesn't effect you. We should likely never encounter you because we will likely be doing our own thing.

I have seen people kicked from their own dungeons at level 35 because they were new. inexperienced and not level 80.I have had to defend new players who actually want to kill stuff in dungeons instead of just running past it all, because some player doesn't give a damn about anyone else around them and wants to complete the run in a short of time as possible in the way they believed it was meant to be done. They weren't designed to be skipped, it is an option and people can clear out mobs if they want to. This behaviour feels exactly like what even trying to join up to a raid party seems like or even starting a party and have people judge you if they are experienced raiders.

[Xar.1387]

Calm downSkill lvl isnt that low yet. It will be MUCH lower in the future if Anet wont support raids alot more.

Look at the current state of PvP. Its full of new players which just want to get asc/lege eq there. And when they finally got it (and already learned how to play) they're leaving this mode. Cause there's nothing more to do there. No esport. And also many real PvPrs - people which love to compete etc, etc - already left this mode. For the same reason.Its simple. People dont want to waste their time, and energy to became better and better in games which dont reward their skills properly.Anet were advertising gw2 as an e-sport, pvp game. With esl support. Championships. Real money prizes, etc etc. And they just stopped doing it

Something similar slowly happens to raids. They advertised it in HoT and it looked like they really want to support it so hard. In GW2.Anet was even talking about 6 wings per yearyoutube.com/watch?v=tM8cgQ42bMQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1015Etc, etc. Nobody expected 1 wing per year. So raids slowly changes into another place to farm. Not to progress things regularly. And ppl get used to it.

Thats why alot of skilled raiders just leaves the game. Because they simply get bored of doing same things over and over.And looking for challengies on their own. Like low-man raids or speed-kills.So skill level is going lower and lower.

ALso the way Anet is developing raids is just bad. Cause after all noone is satisfied.Because when there's no new challengies added regularly into the game, then people starts to find those challengies on ther own.And changes easy content into something pseudo-hardcore. Heres where "elitism" and toxicity grows.Like... People care 2much about dps - and they require from others alot more than needed. Also players wants to do some things faster and faster.While doing it slower irritates them. They require more and more KP's. Etc, etc. Doing same things over and over makes it.

Raids should be based on doing new things regularly. First kills. Progression. And stuff like that.Not farming that much as it is right now. Then it would be much more healthy. And not that salty as it is in gw2

[polvere.2805]

@hellsqueen.3045There is a thread to keep talking about easy raid mode. Go talk about it there

I think the thread has reached dying state, basically everything that is coming up is OT or things already said. It has been interesting.

[Linken.6345]

@Xar.1387 said:Calm downSnipSomething similar slowly happens to raids. They advertised it in HoT and it looked like they really want to support it so hard. In GW2.Anet was even talking about 6 wings per yearyoutube.com/watch?v=tM8cgQ42bMQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1015Etc, etc. Nobody expected 1 wing per year. So raids slowly changes into another place to farm. Not to progress things regularly. And ppl get used to it.

Snip

Well that 6wings was what they could possibly release at maximum a year not promised at all that they would do that ever.

[mrauls.6519]

The player skill level in GW2 is pretty low. PvE, PvP, WvW... Low skill players everywhere

[Aeolus.3615]

Skill on gw2 pve mechanics.... good laugh man.

[polvere.2805]

@Aeolus.3615 said:Skill on gw2 pve mechanics.... good laugh man.

Go back to the pvp subforum man, what are you doing here ?

[Aeolus.3615]

@"mrauls.6519" said:The player skill level in GW2 is pretty low. PvE, PvP, WvW... Low skill players everywhere

Just look at the pve mechanics and the class (skills design) players dont need to learn nothing, if they get out of a red ring wich mobs/bosses drop always on the same place they already feel super leet, i actually dropped out of any pvp side of this game and have been focused on pve... the game is so dumbed down at the momment in terms of mob behavior.... what skills will players will get..? more aoe spam skills or more keybashing? 99% of time is just needed 111111 and lots of mobs get killed....

There isnt any skill to gain/improve actually.... it is a game to carry its players with "meta gimmicks", ofc the skill level on this game is pretty shamefull, it was ment to be to those players.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"mrauls.6519" said:The player skill level in GW2 is pretty low. PvE, PvP, WvW... Low skill players everywhere

Just look at the pve mechanics and the class (skills design) players dont need to learn nothing, if they get out of a red ring wich mobs/bosses drop always on the same place they already feel super leet, i actually dropped out of any pvp side of this game and have been focused on pve... the game is so dumbed down at the momment in terms of mob behavior.... what skills will players will get..? more aoe spam skills or more keybashing? 99% of time is just needed 111111 and lots of mobs get killed....

There isnt any skill to gain/improve actually.... it is a game to carry its players with "meta gimmicks", ofc the skill level on this game is pretty shamefull, it was ment to be to those players.

What do you consider to be a hard game? And if it's not a MMO, why should you care about whether or not MMO's are hard? I mean it's not like you didn't know what you were getting into when you bought it...