Non-meta/cheese builds are dead.

[syszery.1592]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@"syszery.1592" said:When I look up the latest WvW videos on youtube there are quite a choice of videos from people who are not playing pure meta builds. Sure these are usually montages and hence they just give a selection of their best fights, but still they manage to do good with their builds. Or do you just call all of these non-meta builds

cheese

and be done with it?

Want an example? Here, it's not from me but I like the content and Firebrand is not meta for roaming as far as I know.

I would agree with you that FB is not meta for solo roaming outside of organized groups as I rarely see them.I did fight one recently though and boi was he strong.And you know how strong a FB is for dueling?A recent 1 vs 1 Tournament held in the new PvP arena had two FBs as its finalist.Both FBs beat condi mirages, soulbeasts, spellbreakers and thieves en route to the finals.And needless to say, the Tournament was won by a FB.I asked the Guardian forums if they would consider using FB for roaming because they are so strong fighters but so rare.Their response was that FB is a strong dueler but lacking in mobility which makes it less appealing.I guess FB would be a slightly more mobile version of a Necromancer? Which well...can be bad against long range kiting foes...Against melee to mid-range foes though...FB is definitely up there in terms of fighting strength.

Thank you for the info (1v1 PvP). To be honest, I wasn't fully aware of how strong Firebrand is in duels (compared to Mirages and Soulbeast in particular). But yes, you might be right that FB is not very common in roaming because of its mobility.

[LetoII.3782]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@"syszery.1592" said:When I look up the latest WvW videos on youtube there are quite a choice of videos from people who are not playing pure meta builds. Sure these are usually montages and hence they just give a selection of their best fights, but still they manage to do good with their builds. Or do you just call all of these non-meta builds

cheese

and be done with it?

Want an example? Here, it's not from me but I like the content and Firebrand is not meta for roaming as far as I know.

I would agree with you that FB is not meta for solo roaming outside of organized groups as I rarely see them.I did fight one recently though and boi was he strong.And you know how strong a FB is for dueling?A recent 1 vs 1 Tournament held in the new PvP arena had two FBs as its finalist.Both FBs beat condi mirages, soulbeasts, spellbreakers and thieves en route to the finals.And needless to say, the Tournament was won by a FB.I asked the Guardian forums if they would consider using FB for roaming because they are so strong fighters but so rare.Their response was that FB is a strong dueler but lacking in mobility which makes it less appealing.I guess FB would be a slightly more mobile version of a Necromancer? Which well...can be bad against long range kiting foes...Against melee to mid-range foes though...FB is definitely up there in terms of fighting strength.

A build with zero gap closers, base move speed and 300 range attacks...

Gee wonder why it doesn't see much play in wvw.

That little arena is what made that build strongest

[Dawdler.8521]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@"syszery.1592" said:When I look up the latest WvW videos on youtube there are quite a choice of videos from people who are not playing pure meta builds. Sure these are usually montages and hence they just give a selection of their best fights, but still they manage to do good with their builds. Or do you just call all of these non-meta builds

cheese

and be done with it?

Want an example? Here, it's not from me but I like the content and Firebrand is not meta for roaming as far as I know.

I would agree with you that FB is not meta for solo roaming outside of organized groups as I rarely see them.I did fight one recently though and boi was he strong.And you know how strong a FB is for dueling?A recent 1 vs 1 Tournament held in the new PvP arena had two FBs as its finalist.Both FBs beat condi mirages, soulbeasts, spellbreakers and thieves en route to the finals.And needless to say, the Tournament was won by a FB.I asked the Guardian forums if they would consider using FB for roaming because they are so strong fighters but so rare.Their response was that FB is a strong dueler but lacking in mobility which makes it less appealing.I guess FB would be a slightly more mobile version of a Necromancer? Which well...can be bad against long range kiting foes...Against melee to mid-range foes though...FB is definitely up there in terms of fighting strength.Which why most choose to run dragonhunter in WvW roaming - better ranged weapon and more mobility.

[ILoveMonotony.1479]

Great post Trittium. It made me chuckle a fair bit.

Don't let the trolls spamming your thread get to you.

[Israel.7056]

@"coro.3176" said:No, not literally every combination of every build, but .. more than we currently have?

Maybe:

• at least 1 power and 1 condi build for each class
• all weapons for each class being useable for at least 1 build
• all elite specs and core specs viable for at least 1 build

I don't think that would be asking too much

.. but I think more important is the extreme power disparity between the meta classes and the off meta.

Just as an example, look at weapon autoattacks on my condi engi vs a meta soulbeast:

Engi:

• ~2k damage (if it ticks the full 10s bleed which .. never ever happens. Realistically, like 700 damage)
• 900 range
• 0.8275s real cast time (0.5s listed)

SB

• ~4k-10k damage immediately
• 1800+ (sometimes up to 2200!!) range
• ~1.00s real cast time (0.75s listed)

This is the sort of thing I mean when I say it's not even in the same league.

What exactly do you mean by "off meta?" Do you mean every build that is not currently considered meta? Or every build that could be considered to be close to meta but not quite there?

There are already more than 1 power 1 condi build per class. There are probably something like 10 potential power oriented variants 10 potential condi oriented variants 10 potential healing power oriented variants and another 10 boon duration oriented variants at this point there are so many gear sets now. It may not be literally that many but there are a lot of potential builds now.

Most of them are either not being tried at all, are being tried but not being discussed or have been tried and found wanting for whatever reason.

Comparing auto attacks by themselves is also not particularly useful imo.

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

[coro.3176]

@Israel.7056 said:

@"coro.3176" said:No, not literally every combination of every build, but .. more than we currently have?

Maybe:

• at least 1 power and 1 condi build for each class
• all weapons for each class being useable for at least 1 build
• all elite specs and core specs viable for at least 1 build

I don't think that would be asking too much

.. but I think more important is the extreme power disparity between the meta classes and the off meta.

Just as an example, look at weapon autoattacks on my condi engi vs a meta soulbeast:

Engi:

• ~2k damage (if it ticks the full 10s bleed which .. never ever happens. Realistically, like 700 damage)
• 900 range
• 0.8275s real cast time (0.5s listed)

SB

• ~4k-10k damage immediately
• 1800+ (sometimes up to 2200!!) range
• ~1.00s real cast time (0.75s listed)

This is the sort of thing I mean when I say it's not even in the same league.

What exactly do you mean by "off meta?" Do you mean every build that is not currently considered meta? Or every build that could be considered to be close to meta but not quite there?

There are already more than 1 power 1 condi build per class. There are probably something like 10 potential power oriented variants 10 potential condi oriented variants 10 potential healing power oriented variants and another 10 boon duration oriented variants at this point there are so many gear sets now. It may not be literally that many but there are a lot of potential builds now.

Most of them are either not being tried at all, are being tried but not being discussed or have been tried and found wanting for whatever reason.

Comparing auto attacks by themselves is also not particularly useful imo.

The auto attack comparison was meant to illustrate the power disparity between meta builds and the rest.

It's true that you can make a whole bunch of different builds. They don't compete very well though because they have to fight against stuff like a ~40k unblockable quickness rapid fire combo in under 2s from 3x their engagement distance followed by autoattacks for 1/3 to 1/2 of their health and threatening a 1-shot maul or worldly impact out of stealth if they do close the distance. They have to fight against condi mirage with ~20 dodges every minute .. that can be used after CC .. while also counterattacking and reflecting. Etc.

My point is that the difference between what is meta and what is unpopular/unplayed is extreme right now.

If the current balance of builds is like this (on a scale of 1-10):

10 10 10 5 5 5...

I want it to be more like this

8 8 8 7 7 7...

[Israel.7056]

@coro.3176 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@coro.3176 said:No, not literally every combination of every build, but .. more than we currently have?

Maybe:

• at least 1 power and 1 condi build for each class
• all weapons for each class being useable for at least 1 build
• all elite specs and core specs viable for at least 1 build

I don't think that would be asking too much

.. but I think more important is the extreme power disparity between the meta classes and the off meta.

Just as an example, look at weapon autoattacks on my condi engi vs a meta soulbeast:

Engi:

• ~2k damage (if it ticks the full 10s bleed which .. never ever happens. Realistically, like 700 damage)
• 900 range
• 0.8275s real cast time (0.5s listed)

SB

• ~4k-10k damage immediately
• 1800+ (sometimes up to 2200!!) range
• ~1.00s real cast time (0.75s listed)

This is the sort of thing I mean when I say it's not even in the same league.

What exactly do you mean by "off meta?" Do you mean every build that is not currently considered meta? Or every build that could be considered to be close to meta but not quite there?

There are already more than 1 power 1 condi build per class. There are probably something like 10 potential power oriented variants 10 potential condi oriented variants 10 potential healing power oriented variants and another 10 boon duration oriented variants at this point there are so many gear sets now. It may not be literally that many but there are a lot of potential builds now.

Most of them are either not being tried at all, are being tried but not being discussed or have been tried and found wanting for whatever reason.

Comparing auto attacks by themselves is also not particularly useful imo.

The auto attack comparison was meant to illustrate the power disparity between meta builds and the rest.

It's true that you

can

make a whole bunch of different builds. They don't compete very well though because they have to fight against stuff like a ~40k unblockable quickness rapid fire combo in under 2s from 3x their engagement distance followed by autoattacks for 1/3 to 1/2 of their health and threatening a 1-shot maul or worldly impact out of stealth if they do close the distance. They have to fight against condi mirage with ~20 dodges every minute .. that can be used after CC .. while also counterattacking and reflecting. Etc.

My point is that the difference between what is meta and what is unpopular/unplayed is extreme right now.

If the current balance of builds is like this (on a scale of 1-10):

10 10 10 5 5 5...

I want it to be more like this

8 8 8 7 7 7...

I think the problem with the math metaphor is that you could add up 10 things that would individually get perhaps a 5 or a 7 or whatever and get a much greater number than if one added up 10 things that individually would get a 10. So for instance 10 rangers or 10 mirages would be fairly easy to completely shut down with a comp that used just 2 or 3 engis and a couple revs for instance. Part of compcraft is using the various interclass synergies to create a comp that is greater than the sum of its parts. Thinking of balance as just build v build or class v class doesn't adequately reflect the realities of the game as its actually played.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"whoknocks.4935" said:If i wasn't constantly ganked 1vs2 1vs3 1vs4 1vs5 etc. Maybe I wasn't forced to play something like mirage (even tho it's a very fun profession for me) and I could try even > other builds, but being wvw all about ganking, the only build that helps me survive and sometimes win outnumbers is condi mirage, so I do play it.

Why do you think it's reasonable to expect only 1v1 engagements in an open field PvP game mode in a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game?

Did you used to walk into WoW battlegrounds and proclaim "ok, one at a time, I only do 1v1" :astonished:

[coro.3176]

@Israel.7056 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@coro.3176 said:No, not literally every combination of every build, but .. more than we currently have?

Maybe:

• at least 1 power and 1 condi build for each class
• all weapons for each class being useable for at least 1 build
• all elite specs and core specs viable for at least 1 build

I don't think that would be asking too much

.. but I think more important is the extreme power disparity between the meta classes and the off meta.

Just as an example, look at weapon autoattacks on my condi engi vs a meta soulbeast:

Engi:

• ~2k damage (if it ticks the full 10s bleed which .. never ever happens. Realistically, like 700 damage)
• 900 range
• 0.8275s real cast time (0.5s listed)

SB

• ~4k-10k damage immediately
• 1800+ (sometimes up to 2200!!) range
• ~1.00s real cast time (0.75s listed)

This is the sort of thing I mean when I say it's not even in the same league.

What exactly do you mean by "off meta?" Do you mean every build that is not currently considered meta? Or every build that could be considered to be close to meta but not quite there?

There are already more than 1 power 1 condi build per class. There are probably something like 10 potential power oriented variants 10 potential condi oriented variants 10 potential healing power oriented variants and another 10 boon duration oriented variants at this point there are so many gear sets now. It may not be literally that many but there are a lot of potential builds now.

Most of them are either not being tried at all, are being tried but not being discussed or have been tried and found wanting for whatever reason.

Comparing auto attacks by themselves is also not particularly useful imo.

The auto attack comparison was meant to illustrate the power disparity between meta builds and the rest.

It's true that you

can

make a whole bunch of different builds. They don't compete very well though because they have to fight against stuff like a ~40k unblockable quickness rapid fire combo in under 2s from 3x their engagement distance followed by autoattacks for 1/3 to 1/2 of their health and threatening a 1-shot maul or worldly impact out of stealth if they do close the distance. They have to fight against condi mirage with ~20 dodges every minute .. that can be used after CC .. while also counterattacking and reflecting. Etc.

My point is that the difference between what is meta and what is unpopular/unplayed is extreme right now.

If the current balance of builds is like this (on a scale of 1-10):

10 10 10 5 5 5...

I want it to be more like this

8 8 8 7 7 7...

I think the problem with the math metaphor is that you could add up 10 things that would individually get perhaps a 5 or a 7 or whatever and get a much greater number than if one added up 10 things that individually would get a 10. So for instance 10 rangers or 10 mirages would be fairly easy to completely shut down with a comp that used just 2 or 3 engis and a couple revs for instance. Part of compcraft is using the various interclass synergies to create a comp that is greater than the sum of its parts. Thinking of balance as just build v build or class v class doesn't adequately reflect the realities of the game as its actually played.

Yeah I didn't mean to carry the metaphor that far... If that's confusing, just replace it with A A A F F F vs B B B C C C instead.

I'm skeptical of being able to beat 10 (good) soulbeasts and mirages with half the numbers of (good) engis/revs. I'll grant it for the sake of argument.You are right that it doesn't take synergies into account. It does change when you get to larger coordinated groups that can have perma-every-boon-including-resistance (lol, VR), but I tend to focus more on small and disorganized fights. I think "the game as it's actually played" includes a lot of pugs vs pugs, and yes, 1v1 roaming encounters.

[whoknocks.4935]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"whoknocks.4935" said:If i wasn't constantly ganked 1vs2 1vs3 1vs4 1vs5 etc. Maybe I wasn't forced to play something like mirage (even tho it's a very fun profession for me) and I could try even > other builds, but being wvw all about ganking, the only build that helps me survive and sometimes win outnumbers is condi mirage, so I do play it.

Why do you think it's reasonable to expect only 1v1 engagements in an open field PvP game mode in a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game?

Did you used to walk into WoW battlegrounds and proclaim "ok, one at a time, I only do 1v1" :astonished:

Not reasonable and i don't expect it...But please don't call me carried cancer when i win a 1vs2 like many people whispered me ?It's a war zone gamemode, so why people keep complaining about roaming specs?

[ArchonWing.9480]

I agree that "balance" in this game often hits niche builds as collaterial damage because they won't nerf the cause of the problem. This indeed stifles creativity. But....

To properly theoycraft, you actually need to know the meta and use that as a starting point. I mean, that's basically what your opponents are most likely using against you.

My question is how many snowflake builds actually do that and aren't actually slapped together because it feels right?

[IAmSole.2098]

I sometimes roam on firebrand solo or duo, off meta stuff still works

[Israel.7056]

@"coro.3176" said:I'm skeptical of being able to beat 10 (good) soulbeasts and mirages with half the numbers of (good) engis/revs. I'll grant it for the sake of argument.

I wasn't suggesting half the numbers just that it's possible to shut down mirages or soulbeasts with a comp designed to do so. So even if engi gets a 5 solo it gets a different number when used properly as part of a good comp.

I think "the game as it's actually played" includes a lot of pugs vs pugs, and yes, 1v1 roaming encounters.

You're right I phrased that poorly. What i mean to say is that pug v pug or 1v1 is so far removed from what's possible with comp and teamwork that it may as well be seen as a different game mode, at least in the abstract. It's like Solo Q versus Team Q in pvp.

[Jaruselka.5943]

@coro.3176 said:No, not literally every combination of every build, but .. more than we currently have?

Maybe:

• at least 1 power and 1 condi build for each class
• all weapons for each class being useable for at least 1 build
• all elite specs and core specs viable for at least 1 build

I don't think that would be asking too much

.. but I think more important is the extreme power disparity between the meta classes and the off meta.

Just as an example, look at weapon autoattacks on my condi engi vs a meta soulbeast:

Engi:

• ~2k damage (if it ticks the full 10s bleed which .. never ever happens. Realistically, like 700 damage)
• 900 range
• 0.8275s real cast time (0.5s listed)

SB

• ~4k-10k damage immediately
• 1800+ (sometimes up to 2200!!) range
• ~1.00s real cast time (0.75s listed)

This is the sort of thing I mean when I say it's not even in the same league.

Engie pistols are a bad example: they have been garbage for years and really shouldn’t be used. Rifle is more useful or just switch to hammer or go full Holo

[Shroud.2307]

You can and have always been able to run custom, non-meta builds. And by doing so, you have always been at a disadvantage. Meta is meta for a reason - it's the most effective at what it does but it's not invincible. You can create builds that will be difficult for specific meta builds to handle, but you will likely be at a much greater disadvantage in other fights as a result.

I agree that the strength of meta builds is oppressive to non-meta builds but I disagree that it's conform or die. The fights may last longer and you may not have as much room for error as your opponent, but winning isn't impossible. If you're fighting on a flat open field with no where to kite, then yes winning is a lot less likely.

The way I see roaming is this; There are builds and there are locations. With the right obstacles to abuse, you can even the playing field. Builds and professions are only two aspects of roaming. Environment and mind games are the others. Maybe I'm being too abstract but, I don't think it's fair to think of roaming as static encounters since they almost never are.

[apharma.3741]

No buffs please. We're here because of buffs, we won't get out of this mess with buffs.

We need the nerf bat, we needed it 12 months ago.