nerf boonbeast when you nerf mirage

[Abazigal.3679]

@incisorr.9502 said:why would you nerf mirage which is already underperforming?

gw2's community is so ridiculously spoiled, instead of learning how to play you go to the forum and whine about perfectly okay class with counterplay possible (unlike a certain other classes which barely get mentioned cause most of you can't even get out of platinum1 which is not the game's fault by the way) until anet gives into the peer pressure and nerfs it

Thing is it does require a lot of effort to beat a team of mirages and scourges, even more in a 5v5 vision. Alternatively, i'm not sure it does require a lot of effort for the team of mirages and scourges to win.I've already went into details about this in many posts, I would simply advice you to give a whole season in gold division, you will probably get the point of many players. Not OP build and not that you can't get out of gold, but too frustrating and boring when you have to face these over and over.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@incisorr.9502 said:why would you nerf mirage which is already underperforming?

gw2's community is so ridiculously spoiled, instead of learning how to play you go to the forum and whine about perfectly okay class with counterplay possible (unlike a certain other classes which barely get mentioned cause most of you can't even get out of platinum1 which is not the game's fault by the way) until anet gives into the peer pressure and nerfs it

mirage = no representation in tournaments= trash in wvw cus condi is trash in wvw= not the best 1v1 class= requires insane amount of skill on high level, that's why good mirages kill easily and bad ones fail spectacularly= is cute and fluffy and fair

...5)

Cute and fluffy and fair are small charr cubs

+1 just for that =)

[LaGranse.8652]

@Chorazin.4107 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:They both need tuned down,holo included

Yeah lets not forget the holo's sustain on a non-healing amulet. Its fine if they want to do that much damage, but they gotta blow as quickly.

The problem is the sustain comes from other traitlines(Alchemy) and skill slots(Elixir S, Elixir C). If you nerf the other traitlines that hurts base engi and scrapper which are both poor atm, same if you nerf Elixir S and Elixir C.

And this is part of the core problem with holo vs scrapper atm. I honestly do not notice any difference in survivability between the two given same stat sets. But the DPS of holo is in a different ball park compared to Scrapper.

The Shock shield and Adaptive armour vs holo leap. I think I would take the leap because of the crazy 2sec CD, this skill is amazing for kiting around the general melee and away from dmg. It would be a 70-30 split between how often I use this for distance/mobility compared to offense.

I was always of the opinion that photon forge should be treated like all other transformations (shroud, berserker mode, etc). That is to have the utility skills unavailable while transformed.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

@"incisorr.9502" said:

mirage is the hardest class to play in the game and it's very apparent when you reach high elo and when you meet a bad mirage and a good mirage, the skill difference makes or breaks the class

i didn't play for more than 3 weeks and with a single game warmup i could beat a "legendary" mirage in ONE VERSUS TWO, because he isn't a good player and he can't do anything , if he played a class other than mirage he would actually do more

mirage is the hardest class in the game to play -fight-based (not knowledge based, which is another story and a big part of the gw2 skill set required) simply because mirage requires illusion, stamina, cooldown shatter management which is way more than other classes, your role as a mirage is being the backbone of teamfights and being elusive or stalling which requires ACTIVE DEFENSE AND PERFORMANCE (unless you play chaos+staff + healing amulet in which case you don't do damage so people shouldn't fear you anyway, as ive stated a million times, there are different mirage builds and the only rewarding ones are much harder to perform with). For example thief is 100 times easier because with thief the main skill comes from knowing when and who to fight and not actually fighting, you press tab and you press f1 and spam 1-3 and that's the entire gameplay as thief and you need to know when to disengageas a mirage you need to use your stamina offensively to do damage, which leaves you exposed, you need to use your shatters with proper timing and illusions which requires much more brainpower than all the other current classes (especially the gankers, like i already mentioned. Guard/revenant/thief are the ganker role and they are incredibly easy and forgiving mechanically and you only fail with them if you take bad fights, which is knowledge based) Mirage and necro are teamfighters in their best role and this role is the hardest role to play because it's high risk and high reward

mirage doesn't require skill to be successful is the most gold trash i've ever read , if you get out of gold you'll see how stupidly wrong that is, JUST BECAUSE YOU INDIVIDUALLY CAN"T PLAY DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE GAME NEEDS A CHANGE. Mirage is counterable and not the best class or even remotely close in environment where people can play and use viable builds, unlike other classes (like revenant, which is completely uncounterable and the only way a revenant fails is if HE personally picks bad fights and fails due to how the class mechanics and the role/meta works)

also lol at saying that warrior full counter was a good nerf when warrior already isnt a top tier class in the first place

lets nerf everything so the guy who's too ignorant to learn to play the game can finally move from gold 1 to gold 2 , sounds about right lets butcher other people's potential fun cause some kid is too ignorant to learn the class mechanics

If I had such desire I would get into plat2, but I've stopped bothering with ranked because of unbalanced kitten like Mirage. It's not "harder" to play Mirage, it's same tier as Spellbreaker and other unbalanced classes, carried by build, smash your keys, collect shinies, nothing beside that.Using argument like "imirage requires illusion, stamina, cooldown shatter management" is nice and all, for mesmer of PRE-REWORK OF PHANTASMS, now it's just spamfest.You don't need to even bother with "setting up" anything as a Mirage, because you spam so many clones and phantasms that need to be watched/taken care of all the time, you can just smash your head and you'll still hit one or 2 shatters with no problem.The classes that kinda require so called "brainpower" is Elementalist anddddd maybe core Guardian? core Necromancer? and that's all I can think of that requires brain to use. Everything else is pretty much spamfest and you people keep defending it for dunno what kind of reason.I'm not gonna play a class that self carry itself through fights, no fun in it.Actually Revenant have a lot more counters than Mirage and to your surprise, he NEED to manage a little more things than a Mirage and it doesn't even have stealth.

Indeed, let's nerf everything to the ground and then start proper balance, that's the only way to not kill this game off within next few years.I don't understand your "potential fun" here, why are you talking about potential fun when everything is spamfest? Damage, Conditions, Suistain, Defenses, Mobility, Boons are out of total control, where is here a fun? Getting "1shot" from stealth is fun for you? Spamming 481749847143 conditions every few seconds? Getting healed from 10% to 100% 24/7? Being invulnerable for 3/4 of fight? Chasing guys for half a day? Tanking 2 guys that are dps on a point for half a day?Get real, you are the one that destroy the "fun" by defending unbalanced things, they need to be toned down by A LOT, not by -3% here, -5% there, it's not enough and it'll not be enough in the future as well.Warrior isn't top tier only because other unbalanced classes like Mirage run free, but the moment everything get nuke from orbit, warriors will become "top tier" without any kind of buffs 'cause it's still broken by itself since forever.

PS: You are correct, I can't play something that doesn't require any kind of player input.

[storm.3120]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

Same must be applied to rangers . All I see THIS HURT MY BROKEN CORE RANGER REEEEEEEEE.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@incisorr.9502 said:

@Malediktus.9250 said:Mirage is more annoying because of the condi spam, soulbeast does physical damage which is much easier to counter and less frustrating to experiencenot being able to do anything because of 20 stacks of confusion and 20 stacks of torment on you is frustrating. at the same time you can not do much damage back because the mirage is doging or invuln most of the time

what are you talking about? your post is FACTUALLY WRONG

condition = countered by heal, condi removal, shared condi removal from teammates, resistance transfer condis into boons , dodges and invulnerabilitiespower damage = only countered by heal , dodges and invuls

how the hell is power damage easier to counter xDDxDxdxdfDxDdxDDDd, you can't use a condi removal (usually with insta cast) to negate upcoming 15k power damage as you can for condition this is COMMON LOGIC

on top of that condition builds revolve around setting up bursts because auto attacks dont apply enough conditions on time, how to do sustained dps as a longbow ranger or a guardian or revenant? spam 1 cause your auto attacks do 3-5k damage eachhow to do sustained dps as a miragE? you need to use your stamina for mirage ambush cause that's the only way you get good damage

FACTUALLY WRONG , if anet listens to biased people like you then no wonder this game is becoming like this, condi builds are harder to play because they are easier to counter, there's a reason why on high elo power:condi ratio is 9:1how dare you even say that condi is harder to counter when the entire concept of condi is the exact opposite and when the build has less sustained dmg and condi builds require more stats in order to keep up with damage cus if you only run condition damage you'll do nothing and that's why you need both power and precision

@"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:The real question should be: Why allow such a low skill class get so many shiny rewards?The only people that are "ridiculously spoiled" are players that get carried into heavens by unbalanced overperforming builds thinking they're skilled.You really believe that amount of stuff(defensive and offensive and mobility) that is packed into 1 build is totally fine and that you can let it run without any control into PvP environment?First good balance change was a nerf to Full Counter, look at all the whine warriors spit on their forum, you know why? Because it was carrying them hard.Same situation with you defending broken Mirage, it doesn't require skill to be successful.If you want Mirage to keep having so many evades and detargets, fine by me, but yours damage and condition output is reduced by minimum of 80%, then we can call it "fine and somehow balanced".You either should have Damage/Condition Damage or ability to survive or ability to run or x or y or z, not everything into 1 build, end of the story.Now to your arguments:1) Just because it doesn't have any kind of representation in tournaments it's not making the Mirage any less broken.2) In WvW I only see(roaming): condi mirages, rarer power mirages, SpellBreakers, Soulbeasts, Yolosmith, teefs and even lately condi trap Druids (even condi Berserkers) and that's pretty much it.Condi Mirage is much more broken in WvW than in PvP (evade, evade, evade, evade, spam clones, faceroll on keyboard, repeat).3) Which class is better in 1v1 then? Core Elementalist? Tempest? Core Guardian? DragonHunter? Core Necromancer? Reaper? Core Ranger? Core Revenant? ...4) I would agree on this only if: you were talking about core Mesmer in pre-phantasm rework state, but current the Mirage doesn't require the amount of a skill that you think of.5) Cute and fluffy and fair are small charr cubs, Mirage is annoying fly that spam skills whenever they're off cooldown.

PS: Just because other classes are unbalanced (Overperforming) doesn't mean that yours (Mirage) can stay the same way.

mirage is the hardest class to play in the game and it's very apparent when you reach high elo and when you meet a bad mirage and a good mirage, the skill difference makes or breaks the class

i didn't play for more than 3 weeks and with a single game warmup i could beat a "legendary" mirage in ONE VERSUS TWO, because he isn't a good player and he can't do anything , if he played a class other than mirage he would actually do more

mirage is the hardest class in the game to play -fight-based (not knowledge based, which is another story and a big part of the gw2 skill set required) simply because mirage requires illusion, stamina, cooldown shatter management which is way more than other classes, your role as a mirage is being the backbone of teamfights and being elusive or stalling which requires ACTIVE DEFENSE AND PERFORMANCE (unless you play chaos+staff + healing amulet in which case you don't do damage so people shouldn't fear you anyway, as ive stated a million times, there are different mirage builds and the only rewarding ones are much harder to perform with). For example thief is 100 times easier because with thief the main skill comes from knowing when and who to fight and not actually fighting, you press tab and you press f1 and spam 1-3 and that's the entire gameplay as thief and you need to know when to disengageas a mirage you need to use your stamina offensively to do damage, which leaves you exposed, you need to use your shatters with proper timing and illusions which requires much more brainpower than all the other current classes (especially the gankers, like i already mentioned. Guard/revenant/thief are the ganker role and they are incredibly easy and forgiving mechanically and you only fail with them if you take bad fights, which is knowledge based) Mirage and necro are teamfighters in their best role and this role is the hardest role to play because it's high risk and high reward

mirage doesn't require skill to be successful is the most gold trash i've ever read , if you get out of gold you'll see how stupidly wrong that is, JUST BECAUSE

YOU

INDIVIDUALLY CAN"T PLAY DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE GAME NEEDS A CHANGE. Mirage is counterable and not the best class or even remotely close in environment where people can play and use viable builds, unlike other classes (like revenant, which is completely uncounterable and the only way a revenant fails is if HE personally picks bad fights and fails due to how the class mechanics and the role/meta works)

also lol at saying that warrior full counter was a good nerf when warrior already isnt a top tier class in the first place

lets nerf everything so the guy who's too ignorant to learn to play the game can finally move from gold 1 to gold 2 , sounds about right lets butcher other people's potential fun cause some kid is too ignorant to learn the class mechanics

ur both kinda right. Power damage is more viable than Condi in general,most meta builds recently are power heavy and most specs arnt running Condi these days. The issue is mirage and scourge are unique with regards to this due to their ability to apply decent spike damage as well as a large amount of condi’s with a consistent reapplication in a short amount of time. Due to the damage over time nature of Condi damage and the ease of which scourge and mirage can stack and reapply it with the decent spike damage makes it very effective,other classes that don’t share scourges unique mechanics nor skills cannot compare in viability, as most classes power heavy is the way to go. I’m not saying Condi Mirage is more effective than power mirage it just Condi Mirage requires a lower skill ceiling to be very effective where as power a higher skill ceiling. Even classes like guard who eat condi’s and push out cleanses like nothing can’t keep up with the consistent fast reapplication if condi’s these two specs can push out. The initial damage plus damage overtime stacked become very punishing to the opponent, especially when Condi types in question require the opponent to stop moving and or cast skills to avoid ramping damage.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

Using argument like "imirage requires illusion, stamina, cooldown shatter management" is nice and all, for mesmer of PRE-REWORK OF PHANTASMS, now it's just spamfest.You don't need to even bother with "setting up" anything as a Mirage, because you spam so many clones and phantasms that need to be watched/taken care of all the time, you can just smash your head and you'll still hit one or 2 shatters with no problem.The classes that kinda require so called "brainpower" is Elementalist anddddd maybe core Guardian? core Necromancer? and that's all I can think of that requires brain to use. Everything else is pretty much spamfest and you people keep defending it for dunno what kind of reason.

As a mesmer main I absolutely despise phantasm rework, before it mesmer shattered way faster and phantasm had reliable damage as opposed to the now "hey look at this big windup".Now my 2nd main is an ele and ele doesn't require brainpower at all, you have to push more buttons to do stuff that other professions do with few skills, yeah, but its as straightfoward as the other professions.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

Even in other actually successful PvP Esports about 40-60% of all builds get completely abandoned at high level play. This includes Moba games like League and Dota to 1v1 fighting games like Street Fighters. So this dream of every single possible spec being perfectly and equally viable will never happen.

At the end of the day what is most important is creating a meta where every single profession has at least one top tier viable spec where there are a number of options to a variety of roles. Multiple 1vX side noders, multiple options for support, multiple options for team damage dealers, and multiple options for Roamers.

[Xae.7204]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

Even in other actually successful PvP Esports about 40-60% of all builds get completely abandoned at high level play. This includes Moba games like League and Dota to 1v1 fighting games like Street Fighters. So this dream of every single possible spec being perfectly and equally viable will never happen.

At the end of the day what is most important is creating a meta where every single profession has at least one top tier viable spec where there are a number of options to a variety of roles. Multiple 1vX side noders, multiple options for support, multiple options for team damage dealers, and multiple options for Roamers.

Successful games try to rotate the meta. They try not to leave the same builds at the top for long. In DoTA if something stays at the top for more than a patch it gets considered a "cancer" build and gets banned automatically by players.

With AreanNet the same Golden Child classes with the same Golden Child builds stay meta for YEARS.

[sephiroth.4217]

@incisorr.9502 said:

mirage is the hardest class to play in the game

Mirage is counterable and not the best class or even remotely close in environment where people can play and use viable builds, unlike other classes (like revenant, which is completely uncounterable)

?Best coffee break ever.

[Ario.8964]

With all the complaints from incisorr on how uncounterable rev is, I begin to wonder if I'm just secretly trash at rev despite being almost 1700 :/ idk, guess I should ez mode win vs a class that causes 3 out of my 5 skills on sword to split dmg into uselessness, require targets while he detargets every 5 seconds, spams evade/reflect, spams blind, spams condi, and spams cc...

Also would like to point out condi mirage takes 0 skill. If I can go 25-0 on my first match of condi mirage that's probably because it's really easy as I doubt I'm skilled enough to just put something on the first time and do that unless it's carrying. That or I'm god tier mirage, take your pick.

[sephiroth.4217]

@"Ario.8964" said:With all the complaints from incisorr on how uncounterable rev is, I begin to wonder if I'm just secretly trash at rev despite being almost 1700 :/ idk, guess I should ez mode win vs a class that causes 3 out of my 5 skills on sword to split dmg into uselessness, require targets while he detargets every 5 seconds, spams evade/reflect, spams blind, spams condi, and spams cc...

Also would like to point out condi mirage takes 0 skill. If I can go 25-0 on my first match of condi mirage that's probably because it's really easy as I doubt I'm skilled enough to just put something on the first time and do that unless it's carrying. That or I'm god tier mirage, take your pick.

maybe you're the "uncounterable" rev he was referencing?

[Xcution.4768]

All power based classes can cry about rev but not a single condi class should complain about rev. Rev is only GOD tier atm cuz condi cancer meta is on hold.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Xae.7204 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

Even in other actually successful PvP Esports about 40-60% of all builds get completely abandoned at high level play. This includes Moba games like League and Dota to 1v1 fighting games like Street Fighters. So this dream of every single possible spec being perfectly and equally viable will never happen.

At the end of the day what is most important is creating a meta where every single profession has at least one top tier viable spec where there are a number of options to a variety of roles. Multiple 1vX side noders, multiple options for support, multiple options for team damage dealers, and multiple options for Roamers.

Successful games try to rotate the meta. They try not to leave the same builds at the top for long. In DoTA if something stays at the top for more than a patch it gets considered a "cancer" build and gets banned automatically by players.

With AreanNet the same Golden Child classes with the same Golden Child builds stay meta for YEARS.

How many years has Dota 2 gone with people crying about Meepo again?

[incisorr.9502]

@"Ario.8964" said:With all the complaints from incisorr on how uncounterable rev is, I begin to wonder if I'm just secretly trash at rev despite being almost 1700 :/ idk, guess I should ez mode win vs a class that causes 3 out of my 5 skills on sword to split dmg into uselessness, require targets while he detargets every 5 seconds, spams evade/reflect, spams blind, spams condi, and spams cc...

Also would like to point out condi mirage takes 0 skill. If I can go 25-0 on my first match of condi mirage that's probably because it's really easy as I doubt I'm skilled enough to just put something on the first time and do that unless it's carrying. That or I'm god tier mirage, take your pick.

if you're on EU then yes, cus i've never seen youif you're on NA then have in mind that NA is worse at video games than eu in everything except fighting games and even then , eu actually won evo last year so there's that.

you cant evade on reflect and spam blind and you don't "spam cc "as mirage cus you literally only have one stun on pistol with huge cooldown and a bunch of dazes, revenant actually has more ccs than mirage does

i don't mind people complaining ( i love it actually ) but i mind when ppl are twisting and bending reality. Mirage has detarget on axe which is 10 sec cd (8 with trait) and 1 more on utilities if they take it (but it's trash so if your enemy mirage has it then he's probably a bad player anyway). It's actually less detargets than a class that can spam stealth, such as thief/de. You only need target as revenant to abuse and exploit the unfair and overpowered teleport through a wall, once you do that you don't need a target and can mash buttons in the airand yes, rev wins easy mode vs mirage when you wait until he fights someone else then you scum-backstab-2shot him through a wall with teleport, cause that's what the entire point and essence of revenant is and that's why i complain about the class

[Ario.8964]

@incisorr.9502 said:

@"Ario.8964" said:With all the complaints from incisorr on how uncounterable rev is, I begin to wonder if I'm just secretly trash at rev despite being almost 1700 :/ idk, guess I should ez mode win vs a class that causes 3 out of my 5 skills on sword to split dmg into uselessness, require targets while he detargets every 5 seconds, spams evade/reflect, spams blind, spams condi, and spams cc...

Also would like to point out condi mirage takes 0 skill. If I can go 25-0 on my first match of condi mirage that's probably because it's really easy as I doubt I'm skilled enough to just put something on the first time and do that unless it's carrying. That or I'm god tier mirage, take your pick.

if you're on EU then yes, cus i've never seen youif you're on NA then have in mind that NA is worse at video games than eu in everything except fighting games and even then , eu actually won evo last year so there's that.

you cant evade on reflect and spam blind and you don't "spam cc "as mirage cus you literally only have one stun on pistol with huge cooldown and a bunch of dazes, revenant actually has more ccs than mirage does

i don't mind people complaining ( i love it actually ) but i mind when ppl are twisting and bending reality. Mirage has detarget on axe which is 10 sec cd (8 with trait) and 1 more on utilities if they take it (but it's trash so if your enemy mirage has it then he's probably a bad player anyway). It's actually less detargets than a class that can spam stealth, such as thief/de. You only need target as revenant to abuse and exploit the unfair and overpowered teleport through a wall, once you do that you don't need a target and can mash buttons in the airand yes, rev wins easy mode vs mirage when you wait until he fights someone else then you scum-backstab-2shot him through a wall with teleport, cause that's what the entire point and essence of revenant is and that's why i complain about the class

It's NA and I agree NA is trash. With the people I'm constantly fighting against I wouldn't be surprised if actual monkeys could play better than most of NA.

There's a couple steps you can take to alleviate your issue. Since you should always be checking the enemy team comp to prepare for the game, if they have a rev know it will be safer to fight away from walls and near no valid path spots. Every point in the game has a place you can stand at where you will see someone coming to you or if they port through the nearest wall, they won't be able to hit you without burning all of their energy and then it's easy kill for you.It's what I do when I know there's a rev on the other team and I never have issues with getting hit with deathstrike. (However, I agree rev OH sword is busted and needs nerfs so it isn't a 1 shot wombo combo on a low cd.) Another thing you can do is fight near your clones so most of their skills lose effectiveness and it's much more manageable to fight.

You're complaining about something you should be hardcountering with 0 problem. When a rev sees a condi mirage on the other team it's bad news because the rev knows how easy it is for condi mirage to shut him down. I don't see why you are the only mirage main who claims to be good that struggles with rev. Doesn't make sense.

[Atronach.8520]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Xae.7204 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

Even in other actually successful PvP Esports about 40-60% of all builds get completely abandoned at high level play. This includes Moba games like League and Dota to 1v1 fighting games like Street Fighters. So this dream of every single possible spec being perfectly and equally viable will never happen.

At the end of the day what is most important is creating a meta where every single profession has at least one top tier viable spec where there are a number of options to a variety of roles. Multiple 1vX side noders, multiple options for support, multiple options for team damage dealers, and multiple options for Roamers.

Successful games try to rotate the meta. They try not to leave the same builds at the top for long. In DoTA if something stays at the top for more than a patch it gets considered a "cancer" build and gets banned automatically by players.

With AreanNet the same Golden Child classes with the same Golden Child builds stay meta for YEARS.

How many years has Dota 2 gone with people crying about Meepo again?

What are you talking about lol? Meepo has like 10 hard counters, not to mention its 100x harder to play than Mirage. One clone dies= you die, which isn't the case at all with Mesmer. They aren't even comparable in power level.

[incisorr.9502]

@Atronach.8520 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Xae.7204 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

Even in other actually successful PvP Esports about 40-60% of all builds get completely abandoned at high level play. This includes Moba games like League and Dota to 1v1 fighting games like Street Fighters. So this dream of every single possible spec being perfectly and equally viable will never happen.

At the end of the day what is most important is creating a meta where every single profession has at least one top tier viable spec where there are a number of options to a variety of roles. Multiple 1vX side noders, multiple options for support, multiple options for team damage dealers, and multiple options for Roamers.

Successful games try to rotate the meta. They try not to leave the same builds at the top for long. In DoTA if something stays at the top for more than a patch it gets considered a "cancer" build and gets banned automatically by players.

With AreanNet the same Golden Child classes with the same Golden Child builds stay meta for YEARS.

How many years has Dota 2 gone with people crying about Meepo again?

What are you talking about lol? Meepo has like 10 hard counters, not to mention its 100x harder to play than Mirage. One clone dies= you die, which isn't the case at all with Mesmer. They aren't even comparable in power level.

are u trying to imply mirage has no hard counters? cus that's bs

the risky build i play has counters (both in 1v1 and in fights in general)the safe build most ppl play has weak matchups and its not useful in skirmishes vs good people

also dunno about meepo difficulty but mirage, the risky/dmg build, is the hardest class in gw2

u have no protection and fully rely on active defense such as blocks, iframes, stealth and detargeting and distortion, your dmg doesn't come from 1 thing and you need to know and use different patterns and combos based on your cds and the situation because nothing does dmg by itself since you're doing hybrid dmg. You use stamina offensively so you have less stamina defensively so minding your stamina pool matters even more. Shatters are worthless without illusions and illusions die all the time so you have to keep track of that, condition dmg can be negated by cleanse so you have to know when and who to dps and can fail at that as well

the safer mirage build just doesn't pass a certain point no matter how good you are and there are situations in which u can't do anything. If you can't dominate the 1v1 (which you won't vs good player with proper class/build, due to nerfs) and can't be useful in a team fight (which is hard to be useful in a tf when u trade so much dmg for defense) then you'll be deadweight and u can see that on high elo games

[Crab Fear.1624]

@incisorr.9502 said:

@Atronach.8520 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Xae.7204 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

Even in other actually successful PvP Esports about 40-60% of all builds get completely abandoned at high level play. This includes Moba games like League and Dota to 1v1 fighting games like Street Fighters. So this dream of every single possible spec being perfectly and equally viable will never happen.

At the end of the day what is most important is creating a meta where every single profession has at least one top tier viable spec where there are a number of options to a variety of roles. Multiple 1vX side noders, multiple options for support, multiple options for team damage dealers, and multiple options for Roamers.

Successful games try to rotate the meta. They try not to leave the same builds at the top for long. In DoTA if something stays at the top for more than a patch it gets considered a "cancer" build and gets banned automatically by players.

With AreanNet the same Golden Child classes with the same Golden Child builds stay meta for YEARS.

How many years has Dota 2 gone with people crying about Meepo again?

What are you talking about lol? Meepo has like 10 hard counters, not to mention its 100x harder to play than Mirage. One clone dies= you die, which isn't the case at all with Mesmer. They aren't even comparable in power level.

are u trying to imply mirage has no hard counters? cus that's bs

what are the hard counters, specifically? HARD counters, not situational counters...HARD....HARD...means unless they monumentally screw up, you are toast.

Explain brain

[Crab Fear.1624]

^ "erm, more than 3 at a time versus me is hard counter, cuz if they screw up, i might live"

[mortrialus.3062]

@Atronach.8520 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Xae.7204 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

Even in other actually successful PvP Esports about 40-60% of all builds get completely abandoned at high level play. This includes Moba games like League and Dota to 1v1 fighting games like Street Fighters. So this dream of every single possible spec being perfectly and equally viable will never happen.

At the end of the day what is most important is creating a meta where every single profession has at least one top tier viable spec where there are a number of options to a variety of roles. Multiple 1vX side noders, multiple options for support, multiple options for team damage dealers, and multiple options for Roamers.

Successful games try to rotate the meta. They try not to leave the same builds at the top for long. In DoTA if something stays at the top for more than a patch it gets considered a "cancer" build and gets banned automatically by players.

With AreanNet the same Golden Child classes with the same Golden Child builds stay meta for YEARS.

How many years has Dota 2 gone with people crying about Meepo again?

What are you talking about lol? Meepo has like 10 hard counters, not to mention its 100x harder to play than Mirage. One clone dies= you die, which isn't the case at all with Mesmer. They aren't even comparable in power level.

Meepo was infamous years ago. And before I made that post I skimmed over reddit and a few of the most popular casters and people on reddit are still complaining about Meepo and a majority of the casters I saw think Meepo is among the top 3 heroes in the game. Just a cursory glance shows him as still the most complained about character which has been the case since 2017.

[Xae.7204]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Atronach.8520 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Xae.7204 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Nerfing core to get into the elite spec is what was always done, don't know why suddenly it is a problem.Confounding Suggestions, Power Block, Critical Infusion, Bountiful Disillusionment on top of my head, were nerfed because of chrono (since phantasm rework) and mirage, no only did anyone gave a kitten, people still want more core mes stuff nerfed such as evasive mirror, ineptitude, blinding dissipation, more nerfs on bountiful.

If core engi gets nerfed to get holo nerfed so be it.

Even in other actually successful PvP Esports about 40-60% of all builds get completely abandoned at high level play. This includes Moba games like League and Dota to 1v1 fighting games like Street Fighters. So this dream of every single possible spec being perfectly and equally viable will never happen.

At the end of the day what is most important is creating a meta where every single profession has at least one top tier viable spec where there are a number of options to a variety of roles. Multiple 1vX side noders, multiple options for support, multiple options for team damage dealers, and multiple options for Roamers.

Successful games try to rotate the meta. They try not to leave the same builds at the top for long. In DoTA if something stays at the top for more than a patch it gets considered a "cancer" build and gets banned automatically by players.

With AreanNet the same Golden Child classes with the same Golden Child builds stay meta for YEARS.

How many years has Dota 2 gone with people crying about Meepo again?

What are you talking about lol? Meepo has like 10 hard counters, not to mention its 100x harder to play than Mirage. One clone dies= you die, which isn't the case at all with Mesmer. They aren't even comparable in power level.

Meepo was infamous years ago. And before I made that post I skimmed over reddit and a few of the most popular casters and people on reddit are still complaining about Meepo and a majority of the casters I saw think Meepo is among the top 3 heroes in the game. Just a cursory glance shows him as still the most complained about character which has been the case since 2017.

It would help the discussion if you kept your posts grounded in reality.

https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meepo

DoTA has an open API. People collect and parse the games and determine stats.

Despite almost exclusively being played be dedicated meepo players it has a sub 50% winrate.

No one is complaining about Meepo. Certainly not professions. Feel free to look at the lack of meepo pick/bans in any of the recent tournaments.

In the most recent major tournament Meepo was picked a single time.https://liquipedia.net/dota2/DreamLeague/Season_10/Statistics

Now, if Guild Wars 2 had a pick/ban system do you think you would ever see mesmers again?

Do you think ArenaNet will ever have the transparency to let an API comb for stats so we can see and judge things for ourselves instead of being fed vague platitudes?

[Master Ketsu.4569]

@"Ario.8964" said:With all the complaints from incisorr on how uncounterable rev is, I begin to wonder if I'm just secretly trash at rev despite being almost 1700 :/ idk, guess I should ez mode win vs a class that causes 3 out of my 5 skills on sword to split dmg into uselessness, require targets while he detargets every 5 seconds, spams evade/reflect, spams blind, spams condi, and spams cc...

Also would like to point out condi mirage takes 0 skill. If I can go 25-0 on my first match of condi mirage that's probably because it's really easy as I doubt I'm skilled enough to just put something on the first time and do that unless it's carrying. That or I'm god tier mirage, take your pick.

This deserves more emphasis than it gets as it is coming from a player who has done both Rev and Mirage in high-rating games.

A lot of FOTM mains keep saying "Just play it yourself and you will understand how to beat it". Except we have played it and that's exactly why it's considered busted. The first thing I do when a new build gives me trouble is to try it myself.

The truth is all the other meta builds, while strong, have clear issues that can be exploited. Boonbeast has severe cooldown limitations. Holosmith and Spellbreaker have extremely obvious long tells on their strongest skills allowing for outplay with good use of dodge and block. Scourge is very easy to kite, outrotate, and outrange. Same with firebrand. Thief must choose wisely between attacking or defending every nanosecond else it either instantly die or be useless. I'm not saying these builds are bad, just that they have actual interactive counterplay to them and require some base skill to play correctly.

Condi mirage? No. This spec is 100% pure class carry. CC is useless against it. The only way to actually counter the class is to play something with insane condi-boon conversion ( IE: core guard ) and even then it's more like an even matchup than a losing one once you understand it. After 5 games of condi mirage I was winning 1v1s against 1500+rated players by just doing my defensive rotation and spamming attacks whenever until they randomly died. No duelist spec should ever be this brainless to play. I legit stopped because to be perfectly frank condi mirage in its current form is basically developer sanctioned cheating.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:The very best pvp conquest build is s/d core theif and was buffed to deal with pof specs. Umm what?

For thief, absolutely, and any of the top thieves will tell you that; S/D core is the best conquest build the profession has, and it directly counters the PoF specs because it has massive boon denial/theft which so many of the specs/top builds heavily abuse, and all its major damage is unblockable with a very high defensive/damage negation uptime thanks to its repeated dodges. If not for the buffs allowing for the double unblockable FS/LS combo (FS used to be blockable) and was buffed to also be unblockable, S/D would have no purpose at all and thief as a whole would be complete trash in sPvP.

What's otherwise good in conquest for point control (FB, Soulbeast, Holo) hard-counters all other kit setups the thief has. Rifle SA DE is busted in WvW, but for reasons that have no benefit in sPvP and result in a wasted slot, which could otherwise be spent on a more powerful decap/dueling class like Mirage or a second Soulbeast.