Evasive Mirror [Suggestion]

[Me Games Ma.8426]

Hi,lately there has been a lot of hate towards the trait Evasive Mirror, while I don't think that reflect on dodge is a bad Idea I do believe that the duration of projectile immunity granted by this trait is too long / has too much uptime in fights.

To understand what the change I suggest is, you have to understand how Evasive Mirror works exactly:When using an evade skill/dodge AND evade an attack, you gain mirror for 2s. Essentially this means each "evade" you trigger causes 2 seconds of projectile immunity. If a mesmer uses a dodge roll (about 0.8s of evasion or 1s as mirage) they can increase this immunity window (for projectiles only) by another 2s. So, if timed well the mesmer can get up to 3 seconds of immunity against projectiles by just hitting the dodge key.

My suggestion to change this trait is:Instead of triggering "on evade" make it trigger "on dodge" and reduce it's duration to the duration of the dodge roll/mirage cloak (or just 1s). The immunity window will no longer be increased by this trait and the traits is now only of an offensive nature.Another result of this change is that skills like Blurred Frenzy, Mirage Mirrors or Axes of Symmetry can no longer cause the reflect.

[viquing.8254]

Blind on shatter = sustain against melee.Evasive mirror = sustain against range.

That's the ways I see it. I think it need to stay as a sustain against range (not an immunity against range that's said.), not a offensive one.

Btw majority of ranged attacks aren't projectiles.It can be frustrating in a mirage build with 1 sec evade + high vigor uptime (BI f2) + sigil and runes who regen endurance + proc on axes of summetry and mirage mirrors but apart for this there isn't really issue with other builds. That's why I'm more for a 2 sec icd.

The question is how to make a range sustain by not destroying this trait and by not making it op in one build ?

[storm.3120]

Its should be 10s icd while traited by mirage.Thats all

[Dawdler.8521]

So a roaming mesmer can build to specifically keep things like power ranger or ranged thieves in check.

Is that wrong?

But tbh I would love to roam on my pp de again. Just ping target dead.

[flog.3485]

I don’t think it’s the main problem of evasive mirror. Seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that with the mirage traitline, evasive mirror will trigger off of any illusion you have up now because of its interaction with infinite horizon.

It would be better to make sure that all these dueling advantages only trigger off your character and not its clones or illusions, kind of like how blinding dissipation works.

Other than that I don’t personally understand why the duration of the reflect is longer than the internal cooldown of the trait. If we keep a 2 seconds reflect, the internal cooldown of the trait after being successfully procced should be at least double the duration of reflect.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Dawdler made a good point.People can trait to be practically immune to condis, to negate as much physical damage as they can and so on.In this light, why is it unfair to build with as much reflect as possible?

[viquing.8254]

Because in certains mirage builds (typically the condi/sage.), one way to counter them is by not going in melee, getting hit by axe ambush spamming, then they also have a very good uptime of reflect so it participe to the "mirage has too much sustain" hype.Personnally I can manage it but I can imagine that some people will get really hard time against.

@flog.3485 said:I don’t think it’s the main problem of evasive mirror. Seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that with the mirage traitline, evasive mirror will trigger off of any illusion you have up now because of its interaction with infinite horizon.If it's true, it explain many weird things I saw. I have to test it more.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Whatever they do, I do hope that they split it just for Mirage. The trait was never a problem for core or Chrono and still is not. I am not a Mesmer player but the trait only became problematic when Mirage was introduced. I would hope they don't completely destroy the trait if they do decide to target it.

Traits like Evasive Mirror for Mirage justify traits like Unstoppable Union, and vice versa. It becomes less deliberate and more mindless.

[Lahmia.2193]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:Whatever they do, I do hope that they split it just for Mirage. The trait was never a problem for core or Chrono and still is not. I am not a Mesmer player but the trait only became problematic when Mirage was introduced. I would hope they don't completely destroy the trait if they do decide to target it.

Traits like Evasive Mirror for Mirage justify traits like Unstoppable Union, and vice versa. It becomes less deliberate and more mindless.

Splitting traits based on what spec you use is the way to go in my opinion.

[DemonSeed.3528]

I've mentioned this a long time ago in the wvw forums regarding certain builds/elites on classes. Basically it would target specific problem builds that combine certain traits, and it would add a negative factor, or also if an elite specialisation was combined with certain traits - so in the context of above it would be like:Evasive MirrorMirror (2s): Reflects incoming projectiles.(1s if Mirage specialisation taken)

This kind of -minus attribute when taking certain combinations could have easily dealt with so many builds people were having issues fighting against. Basically this was the approach taken on many old school rpg's when you traited strongly in one attribute, you lost something somewhere else. This would keep other builds/core&other elite safe from destruction whilst dealing with the immediate problem. I can see why it's not implemented though, they want to keep things as simple and straightforward as they can without complicating it for the casual user, but ending up gutting other builds which were not problematic always didn't sit right with me although I can imagine there would possibly be more backlash if this happened because then people would complain about "why can core etc use this at full potential and I cannot"?

[flog.3485]

@"viquing.8254" said:Because in certains mirage builds (typically the condi/sage.), one way to counter them is by not going in melee, getting hit by axe ambush spamming, then they also have a very good uptime of reflect so it participe to the "mirage has too much sustain" hype.Personnally I can manage it but I can imagine that some people will get really hard time against.

@flog.3485 said:I don’t think it’s the main problem of evasive mirror. Seems to me, correct me if I am wrong, that with the mirage traitline, evasive mirror will trigger off of any illusion you have up now because of its interaction with infinite horizon.If it's true, it explain many weird things I saw. I have to test it more.

Well I am not 100% sure obviously. But considering this, won’t you be able to get some sort of the same deal out of deceptive evasion as well ?

[Me Games Ma.8426]

I don't like the idea of taking specific things away from a class if you spec into an elite spec.I suggested the change to "on dodge" rather than "on evade" this way mirage gets cut anyways.Keep in mind that Mirage Mirrors / Illusionary Ambush / Axes of Symmetry / would no longer be able to proc it.The duration nerf I suggested might have been over the top then. But changing the trigger makes chrono and mirage have the same amount of access to this trait.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

You go to thief forums: they're asking for stunbreak on steal, buff on steal items, a perma-stealth F.You go to guardian forums: they're asking for buffs on some weapons, DH buffs.You go to ranger forums: they're asking for druid buffs, pet swap on sb form.You go to rev forums: they're asking for shield buffs, renegade buffs, single target sw3.You go to war forums: they're asking for fast hands and sprint baseline and buffs on plenty of traits and skills.You go to engi forums: they're asking for grenades and bombs buffs, scrapper buffs.

You go to mes forums: they're asking for nerfs.

[Curunen.8729]

I like being able to maximise reflect potential in a build, but at the moment it's too easy with too little investment to do this.

Evasive Mirror is probably the single case where I hold up my hands and say yes I have been biased and deliberately avoided/disuaded discussion on it since PoF launch because I thoroughly enjoy the high reflect uptime on mirage.

Having said that I think it doesn't need more than small changes - to keep it relevant or everyone is going to go Blinding Dissipation and then watch the increased outcry of "perma blind on every shatter"...

So I agree the idea of making reflect on dodge only rather than on evade would make it less oppressive and more consistent, though also believe it could be fine to leave it as it is on evade but simply reduce the duration from 2s down to 1.5s (to match the current icd) and see how that goes - though I appreciate it's either going to be a nuke from orbit or nothing at all rather than small regular shaves/iterations.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:You go to thief forums: they're asking for stunbreak on steal, buff on steal items, a perma-stealth F.You go to guardian forums: they're asking for buffs on some weapons, DH buffs.You go to ranger forums: they're asking for druid buffs, pet swap on sb form.You go to rev forums: they're asking for shield buffs, renegade buffs, single target sw3.You go to war forums: they're asking for fast hands and sprint baseline and buffs on plenty of traits and skills.You go to engi forums: they're asking for grenades and bombs buffs, scrapper buffs.

You go to mes forums: they're asking for nerfs.

Ahahaha! :lol: Now I want detarget on every shatter. xD (j/k obviously before the haters pick on this)

[storm.3120]

@"Curunen.8729" said:I like being able to maximise reflect potential in a build, but at the moment it's too easy with too little investment to do this.

Evasive Mirror is probably the single case where I hold up my hands and say yes I have been biased and deliberately avoided/disuaded discussion on it since PoF launch because I thoroughly enjoy the high reflect uptime on mirage.

Having said that I think it doesn't need more than small changes - to keep it relevant or everyone is going to go Blinding Dissipation and then watch the increased outcry of "perma blind on every shatter"...

So I agree the idea of making reflect on dodge only rather than on evade would make it less oppressive and more consistent, though also believe it could be fine to leave it as it is on evade but simply reduce the duration from 2s down to 1.5s (to match the current icd) and see how that goes - though I appreciate it's either going to be a nuke from orbit or nothing at all rather than small regular shaves/iterations.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:You go to thief forums: they're asking for stunbreak on steal, buff on steal items, a perma-stealth F.You go to guardian forums: they're asking for buffs on some weapons, DH buffs.You go to ranger forums: they're asking for druid buffs, pet swap on sb form.You go to rev forums: they're asking for shield buffs, renegade buffs, single target sw3.You go to war forums: they're asking for fast hands and sprint baseline and buffs on plenty of traits and skills.You go to engi forums: they're asking for grenades and bombs buffs, scrapper buffs.

You go to mes forums: they're asking for nerfs.

Ahahaha! :lol: Now I want detarget on every shatter. xD (j/k obviously before the haters pick on this)

Next elite spec: shatters distarget now. Enjoy new elite spec!

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:I like being able to maximise reflect potential in a build, but at the moment it's too easy with too little investment to do this.

Evasive Mirror is probably the single case where I hold up my hands and say yes I have been biased and deliberately avoided/disuaded discussion on it since PoF launch because I thoroughly enjoy the high reflect uptime on mirage.

Having said that I think it doesn't need more than small changes - to keep it relevant or everyone is going to go Blinding Dissipation and then watch the increased outcry of "perma blind on every shatter"...

So I agree the idea of making reflect on dodge only rather than on evade would make it less oppressive and more consistent, though also believe it could be fine to leave it as it is on evade but simply reduce the duration from 2s down to 1.5s (to match the current icd) and see how that goes - though I appreciate it's either going to be a nuke from orbit or nothing at all rather than small regular shaves/iterations.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:You go to thief forums: they're asking for stunbreak on steal, buff on steal items, a perma-stealth F.You go to guardian forums: they're asking for buffs on some weapons, DH buffs.You go to ranger forums: they're asking for druid buffs, pet swap on sb form.You go to rev forums: they're asking for shield buffs, renegade buffs, single target sw3.You go to war forums: they're asking for fast hands and sprint baseline and buffs on plenty of traits and skills.You go to engi forums: they're asking for grenades and bombs buffs, scrapper buffs.

You go to mes forums: they're asking for nerfs.

Ahahaha! :lol: Now I want detarget on every shatter. xD (j/k obviously before the haters pick on this)

Next elite spec: shatters distarget now. Enjoy new elite spec!

Why a new elite spec? EM reworked, now mirage cloak and shatters breaks target.

[Me Games Ma.8426]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You go to mes forums: they're asking for nerfs.

Haha, made me laugh :lol:I just suggested this nerf bc I am afraid that they hit the trait much worse than what I suggested ^^

(I actually have a list of buffs I want, but I don't think they'll buff mesmer in its current state.)

[treizebee.2091]

You can't have evasive mirror be only the length of a dodge / mirage cloak. Nothing would get reflected as the projectiles would just be evaded.

[viquing.8254]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:You go to thief forums: they're asking for stunbreak on steal, buff on steal items, a perma-stealth F.You go to guardian forums: they're asking for buffs on some weapons, DH buffs.You go to ranger forums: they're asking for druid buffs, pet swap on sb form.You go to rev forums: they're asking for shield buffs, renegade buffs, single target sw3.You go to war forums: they're asking for fast hands and sprint baseline and buffs on plenty of traits and skills.You go to engi forums: they're asking for grenades and bombs buffs, scrapper buffs.

You go to mes forums: they're asking for nerfs.

The mes forum always was the more masochistic since launch. :#

[Me Games Ma.8426]

@treizebee.2091 said:You can't have evasive mirror be only the length of a dodge / mirage cloak. Nothing would get reflected as the projectiles would just be evaded.

As if they could not program it. Master of Fragmentation also allows for reflection eventhough you are invulnerable.

Also I don't thing evasion disables the reflect on the current version. Gonna double check that.

ADD: Daggerstorm also evades and reflects btw

[Simonoly.4352]

I guess just reducing the mirror duration or increasing the CD to prevent chaining might be a simple immediate solution that wouldn't cause Anet too much work. As Dawdler mentioned above, it is kind of cool that we can specialise to be oppressively anti-projectile in the same way that we can become ridiculous cleanse monkies or unbearable heal bots on other classes, so I'd hate to see Mirror access on Mesmer reduced too greatly.

[Me Games Ma.8426]

@"Simonoly.4352" said:I guess just reducing the mirror duration or increasing the CD to prevent chaining might be a simple immediate solution that wouldn't cause Anet too much work. As Dawdler mentioned above, it is kind of cool that we can specialise to be oppressively anti-projectile in the same way that we can become ridiculous cleanse monkies or unbearable heal bots on other classes, so I'd hate to see Mirror access on Mesmer reduced too greatly.

I personally hate ICDs. In my opinion a trait is better the more reliable it works.ICDs make the game feel unintuitive. When I want mirror I evade. That's how it works atm.With my suggestion the mirror would be on dodge. While that changes the intuitive and memorized way of doing it it still is a very simple way to apply mirror. In a few days players will have adapted.On the other hand an ICD can lead to very frustrating moments when you want to use your intuitive counterplay but it's on a cooldown that is not even visible to you.

That is why I would rather go with less application instead of an ICD.I also wouldn't mind a refresh mechanic like "Riddle of Sand" has.

[Quadox.7834]

ICD is a bad option, because it will become a passive "oh, lucky me the reflect got off cooldown".

Make it reflect during dodge instead of after. This will make it more active and reactionary (dodging when you see point-blank shot animation for example), and punish people who attack mindlessly into your dodge, without adding additional damage mitigation frames (which mesmer doesn't need atm). Before people say "this sounds really bad/underpowered for a trait", consider that Masterful Reflection (reflect on distortion) used to be a meta PvP trait, and that was a single reflect on 50 second cooldown. So having EM triggered on dodge is fine.