Upcoming Balance Notes

[Sorem.9157]

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:

@Sorem.9157 said:Dragonhunter does not use it on PvP, nor does support or condi Core/Firebrand. The only builds that used it in PvP were Core Radiance Guardian and Harrier Firebrand. Increasing the skill floor of Core Guardian would be a better solution here, since the real problem is not that the build is strong, but that it is easy to use and can punish newbies quite easily. Core Guardian isn't as effective above plat 1 or 2.

As for PvE, yes, the trait is stronger than its counterparts, but considering that Guardian is not meta dps, the best solution would be to raise the other GM traits up to match RI. Also, they are constantly making splits to make PvP skills more balanced; they could've easily split this change to PvE only, if they wanted to stick with the nerf.Increasing other GM traits up to match RI would make them crazy strong and the profession overpowered. Don't forget that you can equip 3 GM traits, so existing RI builds would become even stronger by having 2 additional traits as strong as RI itself.

It clearly had to be nerfed instead.

I am talking about other Radiance GM traits. Most other traitlines are useable and have a place.

Assuming your argument that RI is overtunned is correct, the fact that Guardian was not a meta dps class even with that makes it a dumb idea to simply nerf the trait without adding buffs somewhere else. This is gonna be a big hit on Guardians, one that wasn't necessary.

If you're talking PvP. Monk's Focus is just as important in terms of survivability, as is the Virtues line as a whole (Assuming we are talking core guard, but i guess i do not need to say that Honor line is fine in terms of viability, the only really weaker line is Zeal).

Let's not forget that Despite RI being really strong, it needs retaliation to function, which is not that easily obtainable on a scenario you don't have a pocket chrono. Yes, Guardian has plenty of retaliation, but no source which you can take from without having to give up something for it.

[DKRathalos.9625]

@mordefelix.5826 said:Is warrior still viable for raids and fractals with such a nerf to banners? Would a dps just be better at that point?

Well the old banner is 170 and 255 with talent, but the new one is 100 and 200 with talent. Pretty sure though warrior on raid is condi? Unless they go power warrior which can go to discipline talent to pick up the banner boost.

[Skyroar.2974]

@"Sorem.9157" said:

I am talking about other Radiance GM traits. Most other traitlines are useable and have a place.

Assuming your argument that RI is overtunned is correct, the fact that Guardian was not a meta dps class even with that makes it a dumb idea to simply nerf the trait without adding buffs somewhere else. This is gonna be a big hit on Guardians, one that wasn't necessary.

If you're talking PvP. Monk's Focus is just as important in terms of survivability, as is the Virtues line as a whole (Assuming we are talking core guard, but i guess i do not need to say that Honor line is fine in terms of viability, the only really weaker line is Zeal).

Let's not forget that Despite RI being really strong, it needs retaliation to function, which is not that easily obtainable on a scenario you don't have a pocket chrono. Yes, Guardian has plenty of retaliation, but no source which you can take from without having to give up something for it.Talking specifically about PvE, which is where I have a better knowledge of this profession:

You couldn't literally make a power-based build without taking it. Other radiance traits have different roles, so they're not really competing with RI too much, and buffing them to RI's levels would make radiance pretty much mandatory everywhere.

I don't think the intention was "let's nerf guardian" as much as it was "let's increase guardian's build diversity by nerfing this nearly-mandatory trait". They did slightly buff Perfect Inscriptions, though, so casting Bane Signet can be pretty nice now in group content with quick encounters or even in solo-play to help yourself without losing damage (for 10 seconds). Symbol of Vengeance bug fix should also make Zeal more appealing to firebrands. But I understand your view that the profession could have gotten buffs elsewhere. However, considering many other meta picks are also getting nerfed across all game, it would be too soon for Anet to predict wether compensation buffs would be necessary or not.

Anyways, the trait still offers way too many free stats, and it's still potentially too powerful.

[SeekZ.3561]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@"alcopaul.2156" said:Could you please clarify/expound on the "Breaking the channel will destroy the spell." part for the spellbreakers. Thanks.

Sounds like it is interruptable if the caster is hit

Well if the caster is cc'd not hit. I think it means that if you get cc'd or you swap or stow weapons (2 ways to cancel your own skills/abilities) you will break the channel.

[Pompeia.5483]

Wow... well, I am in tears about the death of pchrono. Had a ton of fun with it and now... guess back to condi weaver for good then. ;_;

[Substance E.4852]

spirit changes

I... what?

What???

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

@CombatEvolve.9238 said:

@mordefelix.5826 said:Hey so does this mean an overall nerf to warrior banners? Because the 100% bonus wouldn't that give a 200 in terms of stats vs the 170 before? How does the math work?

Warriors with Disclipine trait line currently have 255 stats from banners, which will be reduced to 200. Everyone else has 170 from banners, but will get only 100 from banners after patch.Its an overall nerf to everyone, where Disc warriors suffer slightly less. ( Loss of 55 stats rather than 70)

Tempest got some support buff but its overall depressing . I can understand that Mirage is too strong in pvp or that Renegades condi damge is too big in PvE also DH's burst was a bit too strong but banners and Chrono ?. Banners are a core ability which exists forever also a good warrior can make more dps then a DH and Chrono isn't a over powerd PoF elite. I haven't done the number but in fractals because they take a DPS slot they are dangerously close to become obsolete with this.

I properly will finish my legendary weapon fetch the warclaw then turn my activity in gw 2 to minimum and take a look into my steam library enough unfinished games,

[otto.5684]

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:

@Sorem.9157 said:@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

I urge you to reconsider this change:

• Righteous Instincts: This trait's critical-chance bonus has been reduced from 50% to 25%.

It is the bread and butter for many Guardian builds other than the Core Guardian, which is where it is causing most trouble.

Harrier Firebrand viability will diminish even more after this, despite being a high skill floor build, it is constantly getting hit because of other Guardian meta builds. PvE dragonhunter also relies on this trait and despite being a strong burst option, it is what most Guardians play for PvE.

Again, i urge you to reconsider the nerf and try to target specifically the build that is causing trouble, which is radiance core guardian for pvp.The problem with this trait is that it was so strong, that pretty much nearly every build had to use it. This applies to PvE as well. Now we should see more diversity, hopefully. And it's still a pretty strong trait.

It still is for all power builds. For PvE this change is zero. You would still have 100% critic chance. This specifically targets core guardian and FB harrier in sPvP and nothing. Which raises the question, was core guardian out performing in sPvP? I am nearly certain the answer is no. Which rasise another question, was nerfing these builds intended?

This is what happens when an Anet dev who thinks he/she knows what their doing. Make a change without understanding what builds it impacts. And think they some how provide “more” options. In reality, all they did is limit build diversity further. This has been the name of the game for the last few patches though.

[Sorem.9157]

@"DiogoSilva.7089" said:

@"Sorem.9157" said:

I am talking about other Radiance GM traits. Most other traitlines are useable and have a place.

Assuming your argument that RI is overtunned is correct, the fact that Guardian was not a meta dps class even with that makes it a dumb idea to simply nerf the trait without adding buffs somewhere else. This is gonna be a big hit on Guardians, one that wasn't necessary.

If you're talking PvP. Monk's Focus is just as important in terms of survivability, as is the Virtues line as a whole (Assuming we are talking core guard, but i guess i do not need to say that Honor line is fine in terms of viability, the only really weaker line is Zeal).

Let's not forget that Despite RI being really strong, it needs retaliation to function, which is not that easily obtainable on a scenario you don't have a pocket chrono. Yes, Guardian has plenty of retaliation, but no source which you can take from without having to give up something for it.Talking specifically about PvE, which is where I have a better knowledge of this profession:

You couldn't literally make a power-based build without taking it. Other radiance traits have different roles, so they're not really competing with RI too much, and buffing them to RI's levels would make radiance pretty much mandatory everywhere.

I don't think the intention was "let's nerf guardian" as much as it was "let's increase guardian's build diversity by nerfing this nearly-mandatory trait". They did slightly buff Perfect Inscriptions, though, so casting Bane Signet can be pretty nice now in group content with quick encounters or even in solo-play to help yourself without losing damage (for 10 seconds). Symbol of Vengeance bug fix should also make Zeal more appealing to firebrands. But I understand your view that the profession could have gotten buffs elsewhere. However, considering many other meta picks are also getting nerfed across all game, it would be too soon for Anet to predict wether compensation buffs would be necessary or not.

Anyways, the trait still offers way too many free stats, and it's still potentially too powerful.

It is not about intention but about results and the result of this change is LOWER build diversity. Here, i'll explain why:

Sure, most (if not all) power damage based specs used it, but with the nerf and nothing to make up for it, there is nothing to maintain those builds. Sure, being forced to take a traitline in order to make a variety of builds is not ideal. But butchering the traitline and therefore butchering the builds is worse, much much worse. I'd see your point if Guardian were overperforming in PvE but it really isn't and as much as i'd love the trait to function differently, this is what we have. And they have simply taken it away. Power DH, Power FB, Hybrid Power FB, Core Power and all of its variations may seize to exist or at the very least decrease drastically in numbers because of this.

How is that helping build diversity?

This is what Guardians will live with for the next 4 to 5 months maybe. That is the best (and very unlikely) case scenario and it is still a hell of a long time for a bad outcome even if they had good intent.

[Crinn.7864]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

Necromancer

We'll be pushing some of its damage higher through skill updates in PvE, but will be mostly leaving it alone in competitive modes, as all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes._

So what you just told me is that necromancer is balanced based on popularity rather than effectiveness.

Explains a lot about the class.

If something is still played then there has to be a reason for it. If nobody played it because it was trash then that's a balance issue. Apparently there isn't any such issue.

The problem here is that you are assuming that popularity is exclusively affected by the class's effectiveness, and that there are no other factors in play. That's not how it works. For example in season 9 Reaper was trash tier and hard countered by literally every single meta class, yet there where still people playing reaper in pvp. Meanwhile other HoT specs that are underpowered have nobody at all playing them. Some classes just inspire more loyalty than other do.

[killfil.3472]

I fear that the core mechanics of the necromancer are being overshadowed… mainly, the core profession mechanic, death shroud.with the way the game changed, it seems woefully out-of-date :/

[Asum.4960]

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

Necromancer

We'll be pushing some of its damage higher through skill updates in PvE, but will be mostly leaving it alone in competitive modes, as all the necromancer specializations have a healthy representation in competitive game modes._

So what you just told me is that necromancer is balanced based on popularity rather than effectiveness.

Explains a lot about the class.

If something is still played then there has to be a reason for it. If nobody played it because it was trash then that's a balance issue. Apparently there isn't any such issue.

I play Necro in PvP despite knowing it's not that great, aside from babysat Scourge in AT's, which is a format I don't play, because I enjoy the profession thematically (and am really good with it) and barely get opportunity to play it in any other content I enjoy, such as PvE endgame.It's more accepted in PvP as you don't immediately get called out for playing Necro (although you do as soon as things go wrong, related to you or not), and I do manage to get up to Plat 2 with it with great effort, but that's really it.

Hell, I even offtime roam with Reaper in WvW, even though it's trash compared to Mirages, Soulbeasts, Thieves, Spellbreakers, Heralds and on and on, just because I enjoy the profession.I know I have no chance against players of equal skill on those other specs, and have to perform a lot better.It's not so bad that I can't win if I'm a much better player, but that I have to be.

Just because it's played, doesn't mean it's good in this case. That's the spot Necro has been in since launch really.

The only place anyone was ever excited to see a Necro in 7 years, is in WvW Zergs.

Necro isn't trash. But the foundation of Core Necro is just utterly lacklustre and has been crippling the Profession since years, while the only thing Anet has done about it was to load insane amounts of power into the Elite specs, which then go from massively overperforming to trash and around again, based on even minor buffs and nerfs, since the lack of a good foundation makes them incredibly volatile.

No other class comes to mind that relies so completely on it's (elite) profession mechanic as Necromancer.

[Jojo.6590]

I have a lot of respect for all of you at Anet deciding to post this given the current situation you're all dealing with. I wish you all the best and hope you all heal soon.

[Rym.1469]

Pretty solid write-up.

Good thing gyros are becoming mobile combo fields with effects attached. Engineer, since launch, has always been the class utilizing combo system the most so it just gives them more opportunities to do so. Trashing Gyro tag in favour of Well tag also brings some bonuses, means Gyros are no longer a problem in big scope PvP and likely just work better.?

As far as Mirage goes, can you just disable the ability to use dodge while in hard CC? Out of the principle for action combat, it will always feel wrong no matter how strong Mirage is. As for thr other changes, no expertise to comment on them but Exhaustion should be labeled as an effect rather than boon to prevent confusion ;).

As for the Revenant - if you can do what you do with Gyros this patch, why not expand the care package to Memegade? I've been calling Kalla's summons "retarded wells" for a reason :+1:.Also, as a continuous plea - Make Shortbow #3 have adjustable focal point like in the bugged beta version?, #4 be a defensive skill and #2 apply some type of slow to make landing "bugged" #3 reliable, that will fix the shortbow gameplay, thanks!

My P/D Thief PTSD from like five years ago flashes in warning, but I find it really cool that you guys give some light to the no-weapon combo #3 thief skill. Plan to to the same for all of them, perhaps? Flipover for D/D could prevent evade spamming, just saying?.

On the final note, rip BM banner autoing, long live Battle Standard BM stomp!

[kersh.2735]

You guys need to hope Warclaw keeps interest in WvW because most WvW players due to the constant nerfs are moving to better mmos.

[otto.5684]

@Sorem.9157 I do not think Anet dev who made that change has an idea of how this trait functions. Cuz this change has no impact on PvE or trait diversity whatsoever. If you are playing power builds in PvE you are still taking RI. Condi builds still AW. PI, no where.

Honestly if Anet is not doing this change directly to nerf core guardian in sPvP, it is safe to say they have no idea what they are doing.

[Asum.4960]

@otto.5684 said:@Sorem.9157 I do not think Anet dev who made that change has an idea of how this trait functions. Cuz this change has no impact on PvE or trait diversity whatsoever. If you are playing power builds in PvE you are still taking RI. Condi builds still AW. PI, no where.

Honestly if Anet is not doing this change directly to nerf core guardian in sPvP, it is safe to say they have no idea what they are doing.

PI is run a lot In Fractals, as well as breakbar heavy Raid bosses such as Sama or Sloth, as well as a permanent addition to Radiance Support FB.

The RI nerf doesn't mean much for PvE, since DH was already overcapping Crit chance with over 130%.So really, this changes nothing for PvE, while I Imagine it's a pretty big hit to the already slightly struggling to keep up core Guard in PvP.

I don't see any other point to those changes than that, but I'm not sure why, as I didn't feel like it was overperforming, next to Mirage, Slb, Holo, Spb, Herald etc.

[Jasher.6580]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:• Axes of Symmetry: Reduced this skill's damage in WvW to match the PvP version of this skill. The number of confusion stacks that this applies is now 3 in all game modes.

Hi Irenio, thanks for the feedback. The notes highlighted above are a little confusing to me... as far as I'm aware... when I hit someone with Axes of Symmetry in PvP they currently get 6 stacks of confusion for 3 seconds.

Is it that your team will be nerfing it to 3 stacks in all game modes? If so, don't you guys think that's a little heavy handed considering that Mirage already has some really strong counters in high gameplay such as core hammer guardian, core thief, weaver (unironically), some warrior and ranger builds... some of which you guys seem to also be buffing?

Please let me know your thoughts.

Kind Regards,

Jasher

[otto.5684]

@Asum.4960 said:

@otto.5684 said:@Sorem.9157 I do not think Anet dev who made that change has an idea of how this trait functions. Cuz this change has no impact on PvE or trait diversity whatsoever. If you are playing power builds in PvE you are still taking RI. Condi builds still AW. PI, no where.

Honestly if Anet is not doing this change directly to nerf core guardian in sPvP, it is safe to say they have no idea what they are doing.

PI is run a lot In Fractals, as well as breakbar heavy Raid bosses such as Sama or Sloth, as well as a permanent addition to Radiance Support FB.

The RI nerf doesn't mean much for PvE, since DH was already overcapping Crit chance with over 130%.So really, this changes nothing for PvE, while I Imagine it's a pretty big hit to the already slightly struggling to keep up core Guard in PvP.

I don't see any other point to those changes than that, but I'm not sure why, as I didn't feel like it was overperforming, next to Mirage, Slb, Holo, Spb, Herald etc.

And that is what I have been saying. The change is precisely targeting core guardian in PvP and nothing else. There is no “trait diversity” or “more options.” That is bullshit. If core guardian is outperforming in PvP why do not Anet say so, instead of all this beating around the bush with trait diversity crap. Cuz this surely does the exact opposite.

And if Anet is not aware of that, then we have a significantally bigger problem than being evasive.

[Sorem.9157]

@otto.5684 said:@Sorem.9157 I do not think Anet dev who made that change has an idea of how this trait functions. Cuz this change has no impact on PvE or trait diversity whatsoever. If you are playing power builds in PvE you are still taking RI. Condi builds still AW. PI, no where.

Honestly if Anet is not doing this change directly to nerf core guardian in sPvP, it is safe to say they have no idea what they are doing.

Clearly.

The real problem isn't on meta raids or anything. Many people built their guardian around RI, in order to maximize efficiency and gain some extra survivability through Diviner, Marauder, Valkyrie sets, etc. Those are the PvE guys that are going to get hit by collateral damage to what was directed as an unjustified pvp core guardian nerf.

It just pisses me off that people think this trait is overperforming in PvE. How can a nerf to a strong trait be a solution when the profession as a whole is subpar? If you look at the trait isolated from the profession, sure it looks strong but when you take context into consideration it is nothing out of the ordinary.

Would i prefer smarter design across the whole profession? Sure, that would be better and that is what i am suggesting but it is a lot harder to do and it is not what they historically do.

[Blaeys.3102]

I like the obvious move toward more active playstyles. It feels like a lot of thought went into these changes (and really do hope people give them a chance before reaching for the pitchforks - like you said, they really can't be gauged properly in a vacuum).

I can't wait to experiment with the new gyro changes. I love scrapper already, but currently only use the bulwark and sneak gyros. It'll be fun to give some of the others a try again.

[Arcaedus.7290]

I like the buff to trueshot's range but would have much preferred they made the knockback on LB3 baseline for DH. If there's a buff that LB needed it was that. The 1500 range TS will make wvw roaming a tad bit more fun I suppose but it won't really have any major impact on the balance.

[Lexan.5930]

Thank you for the open communication and all the preview changes. Im looking forward to how this will change the meta in wvw and PvP.Thank you for the reaper buffs but how.is a 3 second timmer going to be balanced with the new trait for scourge? How much physical and Condi damage is it going to spit out to be the same as a normal shroud activtion? Also how many boons are going to be corrupted?Im excited fornthe gameplay change im also worried that its going to be lackluster as as single person using it and be crazy strong in large groups say wvw where 5 scourges can drop a whooe group with shroud bombs

[Diru.4531]

@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:MesmerAfter watching mesmer builds develop following our last update, we have a few more adjustments for both chronomancers and mirages.While we think that Signet of Inspiration's new functionality is working well, it's a little too strong, so we're slightly reducing both the recharge time and the extension of the boon duration.

Where are you getting this information from? I haven't heard a single piece of positive feedback about the chronomancer changes. It's not fun to play. At all. That fact is infinitely more important than whether you think your particular approach to balancing was successful. The same can be said for a lot of class/builds in WvW too. If your balancing approach drastically reduces the amount of fun the game is to play then your approach was not successful and any supporting data you have is likely skewed by the fact. If you do not know whether your balancing approach will affect players enjoyment of the game, then you should ask yourselves ... why? Do you play the game enough to understand your players? Do your testers? However you are determining what players want needs a desperate overhaul.

Some recent feedback from a streamer on this very subject:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/386811845?t=00h30m52s

[storm.3120]

Boonbeast get -1s on dolyak stance = BOONBEAST IS FIXED NOW !11 all go home! LOLI thought that was a joke but its not ? eksdee