Just ranting... And making drama out of It.

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

@SexyMofo.8923 said:We did give them money. They wasted it on unknown worthless projects that got everyone fired.

I keep reading variations of this, as if Anet is a charity we donated to and they used the money to play the ponies. Anet was doing what all companies do, they were working on new products so they would have something to keep them in business if/when GW2 dies. NCSoft was apparently not satisfied with the rate of progress on the new projects and axed them. Now Anet has all their eggs in one basket, which is not the most viable position for a company.

[VanWilder.6923]

If there is any sort of subscription to play GW2, It would be the time for me to say "BYE"

For the LW, I dont mind to buy it with ingame gold/gem at reasonable price. If not, I am fine playing GW2 without that specific LW episodes.

[Dami.5046]

This game should of never gone free to play. Even the first game didn't and you still need to pay for it if you start playing.

[Henry.5713]

Seems a little silly to throw more money at someone who just admitted they wasted a big chunk of the money you had previously given them.

Their payment model works well enough. Last year wasn't a terrible year either. The focus on consistent story updates and Gem Store sales over expansions seems to have worked out so far.Their side project(s) didn't work out. That's life. But Guild Wars 2 isn't dying nor is ArenaNet starving. Just allow them some time to lick their wounds and to refocus their efforts after the recent desaster.

[Omega.6801]

You do know that buy to play with an additional ingame shop makes more money than a subscription w/o a shop? Think about it, with a sub each player pays let's say 15$ a month, that's it, no more no less. With GW2 current model, sure there are ppl who only buy the core game and the expansions, but there are also the "Whales", ppl who spend way over 100$ a month for vanity items or gems2gold conversion. Usually by not giving a set cealing for spending, i.e. a sub fee that can't be surpassed by ingame purchases, ppl tend to spend more overall than they would.

Also, the day GW2 goes sub fee is the day I uninstall.

[Algreg.3629]

When things appear to be bleak, make the only performing product in your portfolio less appealing. Yeah, that is a smart strategy.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

If things had appeared bleak to the studio, I'm not sure a studio would have hired 100+ people in the last year or so.

[Algreg.3629]

me neither, but not my scenario :)

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@shoegaze.3482 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@shoegaze.3482 said:Look at the mmorpg scene, All of them have monthly subscription or paid contents + 50€ expansion every year.

what??? have no idea where you got that source from

• WoW = the biggest player in MMO market, paid expansion, monthly subscription,
  BUT
  you can avoid subscription with WoW Tokens
• Runescape = the cult classic, always been free to play with subscription if you want to access the hardcore contents
• SWTOR = mandatory subscription but was dumped months later
• Elder Scroll Online = mandatory monthly subscription dumped for micro transactions in March 2015
• Black Desert Online = exactly the same business model as GW2, but their pearl is ridiculously expensive, and purchased items are all character bounded after use.

AND FINALLY . . .

(drum rolls)

Lineage 2, the gem for NCSoftSubscription dumped for GW2 business model on November 30, 2011

3 cases mentioned by me, in my experience as a 3hours/day player: Impossible to achieve wow token, ESO Force you to get subs otherwise the limitation kills everything. Ff u Just Need It.

No idea about the other games you mentioned, that's why i didn't say anything about them.

SWTOR has/had arguably the largest IP, was hugely successful at launch but went F2P just short of a year in.. but that was not because of the sub model per say it was because after the incredible launch the large game breaking performance issues became very apparent, lots of maintenance downtime and a few rollbacks.. players grew tired of the slideshow gameplay, which actually resulted in their flagship 100v100 open world pvp zone getting canned before it really had a chance to show itself off, rather than investing in fixing and enhancing performance.Add to that there were a lot of other bugs and lack of comms around getting things fixed.. so numbers dropped like a lead balloon just as fast as servers filled up at launch, they became wastelands fast with server mergers and server closures as a result.I stayed on through the mess and actually carried on supporting it via a sub, and still do when I happen to go back to it for a spell... the F2P and microtransactions have worked well for it, the game to me has improved no end, player housing is some of the best I have played out and deco system is very well implemented.. the game is far from perfect, but performance has massively improved and iI find it fun to play solo or group, which tends to be pretty easy to form up with.Story is good with some interesting branches and collections just like GW2.. so tbh I am spoiled in my choice of gameplay, even though both GW2 and SWTOR have had there fair share of issues over the years and will always have something they have to improve on until the last lightbulb flickers and the door slams shut on them.Played Wow for about 15minutes many, many moos ago.. never found it attractive or fun to play.. though being an old D&D tabletopper then DDO from beta to closure (EU) and beyond after xfer to US servers it was hard to pull away from something I had enjoyed for so many years.Also tried ESO, loving the previous standalone Elder Scrolls games made this a must try for me.. but sadly for me it sucked donkey right off the bat, poor grouping tools for an MMO (felt more like an SP game to me,) and I just felt the gameplay and combat were just to awkward and disjointed.. different I guess to what I had been used to, but again after a change of direction in their model I hear from others it has improved no end from those dark days after launch, maybe I will go back and try it.BDO and Runescape, never really tempted me to even try them if I am honest.. so nothing to comment on them.

I guess though that's the crux of it.. we enjoy the games for what they are and what they offer us, if we're not satisfied we have that luxury of choice so whether headcounts reduce like we have seen this past week or increase as we have seen in the past, all we can do as players is evaluate what the game currently offers, what is planned to be offered and whether we want to wait around for what ever comes after that, if anything.Personally if I am still enjoying it and have things to keep me occupied and interested I will play.. if not then I have a clear choice.

[Drecien.4508]

If gw2 would move away from a fiat currency to one like the US has then it would all be ok... ?

[FrigginPaco.4178]

I would pay for an extremely bare-bones premium (READ OPTIONAL) sub. I'm talking about 1000 Gem stipend, not much more, definitely no less. There's more I'd like to say on this, but this is the most important thing for me.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

@"VanWilder.6923" said:If there is any sort of subscription to play GW2, It would be the time for me to say "BYE"

For the LW, I dont mind to buy it with ingame gold/gem at reasonable price. If not, I am fine playing GW2 without that specific LW episodes.

What about a optional sort of "premium" subscription? If it was solely 1000 gems or some other very low-impact benefit so that we could support the game more broadly? I would pay an optional subscription. I know I've had 7 years of fun out of this game. Christ, I've got almost 5k hours and there are people with several times that amount (at most).

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@FrigginPaco.4178 said:

@"VanWilder.6923" said:If there is any sort of subscription to play GW2, It would be the time for me to say "BYE"

For the LW, I dont mind to buy it with ingame gold/gem at reasonable price. If not, I am fine playing GW2 without that specific LW episodes.

What about a optional sort of "premium" subscription? If it was solely 1000 gems or some other very low-impact benefit so that we could support the game more broadly? I would pay an optional subscription. I know I've had 7 years of fun out of this game. Christ, I've got almost 5k hours and there are people with several times that amount (at most).

The problem with subscriptions is that there has to be some incentive for people to stay subscribed. Say that all a sub offered was 1000 gems a month. How would that be different than people just buying 1000 gems a month? Would there have to be a discount? Would people pay it if they didn't see anything in the store they wanted that month? No, they'd wait until there was something they wanted, pay that month, then unsub until something else became available. If your "sub" only generated consistent money from people who want to support the game, it's no different than if those people just decide to buy gems every month.

No, "optional" subs usually include the rental of features the game is more annoying to play without. That's the incentive to keep paying.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

@Drecien.4508 said:If gw2 would move away from a fiat currency to one like the US has then it would all be ok... ?

Um. I don't know whether this is meant in jest or what, but I'll note that the US has had a fiat currency since 1971 (1), when Nixon removed the last vestiges of the dollar's exchangeability with gold, so you're proposing to move from a fiat currency to a fiat currency.

(1) I would have thought it was longer ago than that, and I would have been wrong.

[MrRuin.9740]

@shoegaze.3482 said:we are not gonna go back to play TetrisTetris 99 is probably my most played game atm ;)

[shoegaze.3482]

...Deleted...

[kharmin.7683]

@FrigginPaco.4178 said:

@"VanWilder.6923" said:If there is any sort of subscription to play GW2, It would be the time for me to say "BYE"

For the LW, I dont mind to buy it with ingame gold/gem at reasonable price. If not, I am fine playing GW2 without that specific LW episodes.

What about a optional sort of "premium" subscription? If it was solely 1000 gems or some other very low-impact benefit so that we could support the game more broadly? I would pay an optional subscription. I know I've had 7 years of fun out of this game. Christ, I've got almost 5k hours and there are people with several times that amount (at most).

If people wish to support the game buy purchasing gems, then they should simply do that. There is no need for any "premium" sub model, which would probably add some (more?) elitism to the game nor is an optional subscription necessary. Players can "optionally" choose to purchase gems already.

[Gehenna.3625]

@"shoegaze.3482" said:Imo this buisness model of Gw2 it's not working really well. (https://i.redd.it/6px5scnx64g21.png)Opinions are free but it's not a very good one. The fact that the game is making less revenue is normal for games like this. Also MMOs with a sub suffer a decline over time.Other big mmorpgs have monthly subscription or paid contents + 50€ expansion every year.Yes some have subscriptions but I don't know off hand about games that bring out 50 Euro expansions every year. Could you give an example of such a game that is not losing revenue over time?And Gw2? LW, released Little by Little for free and two 40€ expansions in 7 years. I mean, kitten? How are you supposed to earn money and invest in better content? Selling Eye Candy? This Is not a friking moba, It doesn't work that way.The box prices plus the gem store have been their business model. And it has worked that way. Problem is that ArenaNet thought they were smarter than Ncsoft and so the next expansion was delayed on purpose by ArenaNet and that's a bad decision in my view.Imagine what would be to release (and sell for 30/40/50€) a full LW season or expansion every year, all at once, new story, 5 new Maps, new raid, new fractal, new collection, new achievments, instead of 1 map and few hours of gameplay every 3 months. It would be 10 times more impacting and satisfying, and provide more incomes to develop more and better contents.Again I still want to know which game brings out expansions every single year but not that many people are willing to pay that amount of money every year.And you know what's the best part? Despite all of this, in my personal experience, Gw2 still the best mmorpg, best gameplay, best combat system, best arts, best community.Depends on what you go for but that's highly subjective and has little to do with their business plan.WoW? Most boring combat system ever. ESO? Class system/diversification/flavour unexistent. FF? Flat and slow and limited. (This Is Just my personal experience obv, played all of them until end game content)Again, not relevant for your topic. There are millions of players in those games that probably disagree with you.Sell It kitten! sell It! Stop giving It for free! And use those Money to make It better and get rid of DirectX9... In 2019...A lot of people are here because there is no sub. We also see people complaining that they have to pay for the two expansions this game does have as if it's a "paywall". What you've got to understand is that a lot of players will leave if ArenaNet would go the way you want it to go and it won't attract more players.

Listen, it's a given that all MMOs over time lose revenue. This is normal and what you expect to happen. So the fact that GW2's revenue is on a downward trend in general is normal. Games with subs and more expansions also have this issue. ArenaNet made the mistake of thinking they could postpone or even stop making expansions and may have felt last year that their gem store would be enough. That was a mistake. And the problem simply is that they grew in staff but revenue didn't grow accordingly. It was up for a bit last year but now it's down again. Ncsoft could not sell that to their share holders. Firing 35% of the studio was harsh but it means that GW2 can go on for longer with less revenue. Expansions do revitalize the game and bring more players back but then the revenue goes down again. I just don't get that ArenaNet felt it was a good idea to push another LS season instead of the expansion a lot of people were expecting to come after LS4.

What I'm also not sure about is what this means for ArenaNet as a studio because the downward trend will continue and at some point they have to come with something new to make more money again. The question is if they can do that and run GW2 at the same time. If they do it will mean less content for GW2 so there is a chance we will still just get LS updates for GW2 from now on and nothing more. Combined with the announcement of something new at some point that is. GW2 has had its best years financially. That means that they're also not going to spend a lot on upgrading the game.

But really, adding a sub or yearly paid expansions to the game (if they can even manage that) will chase too many people away. You cannot start without a sub and then add one later. It just doesn't work. And I think that without the appeal of not having a sub this game would've never been half as big as it has been or is. If the game is really that great in the general public's eye, a lot more people would be playing it. GW2 has some good sides and some bad sides as far as I'm concerned. I find parts of it enjoyable but also a lot that I stay away from on purpose because I don't enjoy it. I pay my sub here in the form of a monthly gem purchase. I think that's fair for an online game, but I'm sure the majority of people here would stop playing if it ever got a sub.

[shoegaze.3482]

@Gehenna.3625 said:

@"shoegaze.3482" said:Imo this buisness model of Gw2 it's not working really well. (

https://i.redd.it/6px5scnx64g21.png

)Opinions are free but it's not a very good one. The fact that the game is making less revenue is normal for games like this. Also MMOs with a sub suffer a decline over time.Other big mmorpgs have monthly subscription or paid contents + 50€ expansion every year.Yes some have subscriptions but I don't know off hand about games that bring out 50 Euro expansions every year. Could you give an example of such a game that is not losing revenue over time?And Gw2? LW, released Little by Little for free and two 40€ expansions in 7 years. I mean, kitten? How are you supposed to earn money and invest in better content? Selling Eye Candy? This Is not a friking moba, It doesn't work that way.The box prices plus the gem store have been their business model. And it has worked that way. Problem is that ArenaNet thought they were smarter than Ncsoft and so the next expansion was delayed on purpose by ArenaNet and that's a bad decision in my view.Imagine what would be to release (and sell for 30/40/50€) a full LW season or expansion every year, all at once, new story, 5 new Maps, new raid, new fractal, new collection, new achievments, instead of 1 map and few hours of gameplay every 3 months. It would be 10 times more impacting and satisfying, and provide more incomes to develop more and better contents.Again I still want to know which game brings out expansions every single year but not that many people are willing to pay that amount of money every year.And you know what's the best part? Despite all of this, in my personal experience, Gw2 still the best mmorpg, best gameplay, best combat system, best arts, best community.Depends on what you go for but that's highly subjective and has little to do with their business plan.WoW? Most boring combat system ever. ESO? Class system/diversification/flavour unexistent. FF? Flat and slow and limited. (This Is Just my personal experience obv, played all of them until end game content)Again, not relevant for your topic. There are millions of players in those games that probably disagree with you.Sell It kitten! sell It! Stop giving It for free! And use those Money to make It better and get rid of DirectX9... In 2019...A lot of people are here because there is no sub. We also see people complaining that they have to pay for the two expansions this game does have as if it's a "paywall". What you've got to understand is that a lot of players will leave if ArenaNet would go the way you want it to go and it won't attract more players.

Listen, it's a given that all MMOs over time lose revenue. This is normal and what you expect to happen. So the fact that GW2's revenue is on a downward trend in general is normal. Games with subs and more expansions also have this issue. ArenaNet made the mistake of thinking they could postpone or even stop making expansions and may have felt last year that their gem store would be enough. That was a mistake. And the problem simply is that they grew in staff but revenue didn't grow accordingly. It was up for a bit last year but now it's down again. Ncsoft could not sell that to their share holders. Firing 35% of the studio was harsh but it means that GW2 can go on for longer with less revenue. Expansions do revitalize the game and bring more players back but then the revenue goes down again. I just don't get that ArenaNet felt it was a good idea to push another LS season instead of the expansion a lot of people were expecting to come after LS4.

What I'm also not sure about is what this means for ArenaNet as a studio because the downward trend will continue and at some point they have to come with something new to make more money again. The question is if they can do that and run GW2 at the same time. If they do it will mean less content for GW2 so there is a chance we will still just get LS updates for GW2 from now on and nothing more. Combined with the announcement of something new at some point that is. GW2 has had its best years financially. That means that they're also not going to spend a lot on upgrading the game.

But really, adding a sub or yearly paid expansions to the game (if they can even manage that) will chase too many people away. You cannot start without a sub and then add one later. It just doesn't work. And I think that without the appeal of not having a sub this game would've never been half as big as it has been or is. If the game is really that great in the general public's eye, a lot more people would be playing it. GW2 has some good sides and some bad sides as far as I'm concerned. I find parts of it enjoyable but also a lot that I stay away from on purpose because I don't enjoy it. I pay my sub here in the form of a monthly gem purchase. I think that's fair for an online game, but I'm sure the majority of people here would stop playing if it ever got a sub.

Obviously all i said, as i said, are personal opinions and nothing more.ESO, even if it's a shitty game in my personal opinion and experience, released 3 expansions in the last 3 years, and it's population has increased a lot, and i think around 70% of them also pay monthly sub because really you can't play that game without it.

I don't think subscription would work well on Gw2.An Expansion every 2 year would be the best solution imo, alternated with Lw Season sold all at once, less expensive than Expansion but still profitable.Right now the best for me would be to read an official announcement from Anet saying they will realease a new expansion next Year.I would accept not to have LW this year in view of a forthcoming Exp.They could still make some minor updates during this year, balance patches, rework some components of the UI, you know these kind of stuff. And start again next year with a new content release schedule. Expansion -> Paid LW all at once -> Expansion -> and so on...

Lol i obviously know nothing about market but still, i would be happy as a player with that kind of schedule.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@FrigginPaco.4178 said:

@"VanWilder.6923" said:If there is any sort of subscription to play GW2, It would be the time for me to say "BYE"

For the LW, I dont mind to buy it with ingame gold/gem at reasonable price. If not, I am fine playing GW2 without that specific LW episodes.

What about a optional sort of "premium" subscription? If it was solely 1000 gems or some other very low-impact benefit so that we could support the game more broadly? I would pay an optional subscription. I know I've had 7 years of fun out of this game. Christ, I've got almost 5k hours and there are people with several times that amount (at most).

The problem with subscriptions is that there has to be some incentive for people to

stay

subscribed. Say that all a sub offered was 1000 gems a month. How would that be different than people just buying 1000 gems a month? Would there have to be a discount? Would people pay it if they didn't see anything in the store they wanted that month? No, they'd wait until there was something they wanted, pay that month, then unsub until something else became available. If your "sub" only generated

consistent

money from people who want to support the game, it's no different than if those people just decide to buy gems every month.

No, "optional" subs usually include the rental of features the game is more annoying to play without. That's the incentive to keep paying.

Fair enough, my biggest gripe is simply that Anet seems to flat out lack resources needed to do the things they want to do at the volume I'd like to see them produce at - speaking for myself. I had a buddy who played the game through episode 1 of season 4 and said that the content, while generally well-written, is simply lacking in quantity. And I'm sorry to say I'd have to agree to that. I'm just struggling to find a way to help attract more people and generate money. But the gemstore… is straight up not cutting it and is a bit toxic as it currently exists as it's been pointed out to me recently. I'm just trying to be constructive and I'm not sure what I can add that hasn't already been said.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@FrigginPaco.4178 said:

@"VanWilder.6923" said:If there is any sort of subscription to play GW2, It would be the time for me to say "BYE"

For the LW, I dont mind to buy it with ingame gold/gem at reasonable price. If not, I am fine playing GW2 without that specific LW episodes.

What about a optional sort of "premium" subscription? If it was solely 1000 gems or some other very low-impact benefit so that we could support the game more broadly? I would pay an optional subscription. I know I've had 7 years of fun out of this game. Christ, I've got almost 5k hours and there are people with several times that amount (at most).

If people wish to support the game buy purchasing gems, then they should simply do that. There is no need for any "premium" sub model, which would probably add some (more?) elitism to the game nor is an optional subscription necessary. Players can "optionally" choose to purchase gems already.

I'm just not sure what else Anet can do to branch out, and it was simply the first thing on my mind. It's not the best idea, but I'm running out :/

[zealex.9410]

@derd.6413 said:the game isn't dying the layoffs had nothing to do with gw2 not making money (because it does make money)

Gw2 wasnt making enough money else anet wouldnt lose 1/3rd of its workforce.

[zealex.9410]

@"Randulf.7614" said:The business model is working for them though.

I may not be a fan of it myself, but I am 100% certain they understand the industry and the business than anyone on the forums. Not business is going to change its model based on a forum rant after all

Poking some fun but its the same studio that release the mount licence at the time they did and used "AHHHHHHHHHHH" as their marketing.

[derd.6413]

@zealex.9410 said:

@derd.6413 said:the game isn't dying the layoffs had nothing to do with gw2 not making money (because it does make money)

Gw2 wasnt making enough money else anet wouldnt lose 1/3rd of its workforce.

you do know that there are other reasons a company might have layoffs besides them not making enough money.

[zealex.9410]

@derd.6413 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@derd.6413 said:the game isn't dying the layoffs had nothing to do with gw2 not making money (because it does make money)

Gw2 wasnt making enough money else anet wouldnt lose 1/3rd of its workforce.

you do know that there are other reasons a company might have layoffs besides them not making enough money.

Yes like their current situation not being sustainable longterm, which is also about money. Well according to Ncsoft atleast, im sure anet themselves were ok with the performance.