Notes from the latest "Let's Play #GuildWars2 World vs World with the Developers"

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@SWI.4127 said:You can if you are careful about it. But if you mean that it would be nice if you could just stand on the lip of the wall and freecast with impunity, I strongly disagree. If you are in range to hit people, they should be able to hit you.

no that's not what I mean.

[Svarty.8019]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@aspirine.5839 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Walls shouldn’t offer

more

protection.

But I should be able to be more active whileOn a wall.

If a player can hit me with a projectile, I should be able to hit them with a projectile from the same spot with the same weapons.

Same thing with AOEs. The only one that is the same is ranger Long Bow 5 (barrage).

• If I can be hit in a spot by meteor, I should be able to hit them with a meteor.
• If I can be hit with a shade or well, I should be able to hit them with a shade or well.
• If I can be hit by a phase smash, etc..

The wall keeps the melee train out, and it prevents melee from being able to hit people outside as well, unless the defenders leave to fight.

It offers a better view of the terrain around (well unless you are in one of the poorly designed keeps that sit in the ground SMH)

It also delays attackers.

Walls got a tweak they needed with this patch. Now skills and walls need a tweak to make some aspects ‘equal’> @nthmetal.9652 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

Very well said sir.I found it more redundant than well said.

The "problem" there is that its both

already possible

and

completely impossible by rules of AoE and LoS

at the same time.

You can stand on a wall and shoot any AoE at anyone that can shoot any AoE at you. This is a fact. So all criterias fullfilled.

Of course that means you are on the edge of the wall looking down. If you stand on the center of a wall... You cant hit them. Because Line of Sight. Yet they can hit you. Because AoE. Thats how AoE and LoS work.

"Fixing" this would mean either deleting AoE or deleting LoS. GG on the last part, getting hit by rapid fire though a wall. The former... Fine I guess? Zergs would complain though, I'm sure.

There is also already weapons that bypass this so I could argue... Bring the right class. A mortar engineer in action cam can arc shots over the walls, hitting stuff below the wall while on the wall that LoS would otherwise block.

TL;DR its unfixable

Hit each other from the same spot with the same weapons.

It may be unfixable, but that is what I would hope it would be.

But that part isn’t redundant.

If I can be hit from the middle of the wall, I should be able to hit someone from the middle of the wall.Edge of wall already exists.

‘Other than edge of the wall’ needs to be fixed.

And again, maybe it cant.It's not a matter of maybe. You can not.

Again, if you are supposed to be able to hit someone from the middle of the wall

you will break LoS rules

. It would literally break the game and allow you to shoot through walls. This would have to be globally implemented so no LoS anywhere. Shoot through walls, through doors, the works. That's the result.

Ehm.... well, I'll let you into a secret: "Barrage" has no LoS requirement whatsoever. So we know it's possible.

[Whiteout.1975]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@aspirine.5839 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Walls shouldn’t offer

more

protection.

But I should be able to be more active whileOn a wall.

If a player can hit me with a projectile, I should be able to hit them with a projectile from the same spot with the same weapons.

Same thing with AOEs. The only one that is the same is ranger Long Bow 5 (barrage).

• If I can be hit in a spot by meteor, I should be able to hit them with a meteor.
• If I can be hit with a shade or well, I should be able to hit them with a shade or well.
• If I can be hit by a phase smash, etc..

The wall keeps the melee train out, and it prevents melee from being able to hit people outside as well, unless the defenders leave to fight.

It offers a better view of the terrain around (well unless you are in one of the poorly designed keeps that sit in the ground SMH)

It also delays attackers.

Walls got a tweak they needed with this patch. Now skills and walls need a tweak to make some aspects ‘equal’> @nthmetal.9652 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

Very well said sir.I found it more redundant than well said.

The "problem" there is that its both

already possible

and

completely impossible by rules of AoE and LoS

at the same time.

You can stand on a wall and shoot any AoE at anyone that can shoot any AoE at you. This is a fact. So all criterias fullfilled.

Of course that means you are on the edge of the wall looking down. If you stand on the center of a wall... You cant hit them. Because Line of Sight. Yet they can hit you. Because AoE. Thats how AoE and LoS work.

"Fixing" this would mean either deleting AoE or deleting LoS. GG on the last part, getting hit by rapid fire though a wall. The former... Fine I guess? Zergs would complain though, I'm sure.

There is also already weapons that bypass this so I could argue... Bring the right class. A mortar engineer in action cam can arc shots over the walls, hitting stuff below the wall while on the wall that LoS would otherwise block.

TL;DR its unfixable

Hit each other from the same spot with the same weapons.

It may be unfixable, but that is what I would hope it would be.

But that part isn’t redundant.

If I can be hit from the middle of the wall, I should be able to hit someone from the middle of the wall.Edge of wall already exists.

‘Other than edge of the wall’ needs to be fixed.

And again, maybe it cant.

Yea I have to agree with you @Strider Pj.2193. Though, I'll credit @Dawdler.8521 for bringing up "LoS".

So my initial thought process is this. Regarding the edge of walls and being covered from that point in Cancer...

We basically have a more or less Diagonal line of fire happening from ether side; ally or foe. And most of the fire is clipping against the "edge" of "x" walled structure. With plenty of AoE's being able to mold around that "edge" to some degree. Though, enough to create a double standard of "I can hit you easier than you can hit me" regarding the same skills. With Defender's coming into contact sooner to that point of LoS. Giving Attacker's an advantage around that LoS... With more flexibility around the "edge" of contact.

So...If the walls were Taller... The more Linear that line of fire would have to become... To reach that "edge". Since "range skills" have a range of there own. Probably 1200 on average? Regarding the problematic one's (Just a guess).Though, eventually you would reach a point of fairness... Even if that ultimately meant that you couldn't really hit each other with those same problematic skills.

Also,

@"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

Although I doubt ANET will have the budget (referring to polycount too) to actually implement anymore modeling on walls.

D:

Cool Video :)

[misterman.1530]

A lot of salient points - but I can see, from my albeit limited perspective, that the population in WvW is dwindling more each day. I see many posts in chat about how it just isn't fun anymore. Defending is a pain, siege is a lot easier now without damage mitigation per tier for walls and gates. The servers with the biggest populations are always going to win no matter what. Instead of one big blob they break up into smaller mini-blobs of 10-20 and spread out over a map. Meanwhile a paltry 20 defenders try to cover every tower and keep. The sheer size of the red borderland is such that defenders have no chance unless they can get more people - which is not going to happen given the current trickle of people leaving - and make no mistake, they are leaving. WvW is dying. Let's do it all a favour and put it out of its misery.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Whiteout.1975" said:If the walls were Taller... The more Linear that line of fire would have to become... To reach that "edge". Since "range skills" have a range of there own. Probably 1200 on average? Regarding the problematic one's (Just a guess).Though, eventually you would reach a point of fairness... Even if that ultimately meant that you couldn't really hit each other with those same problematic skills.Thats exactly how it is on DBL for some tower walls and yes - it just means neither can really hit each other and walls just become... walls... Which incidently forces the defenders out for fights more. So its not a bad idea at all, just not for the purpose of improving the walls. At one particular point you also reduce gameplay to two classes, the ele and ranger which are the ones that has very long range, which is dull.

DBL incidently also show devs should deal with it, in a way that avoid all AoE and LoS arguments - just use better tower/keep designs so that you can get more surface area toward besiegers instead of so many flat and wide angles. The dual extending walls on doors is a perfect example, attackers have a very hard time covering all those angles with just passive marks.

[Redponey.8352]

@misterman.1530 said:A lot of salient points - but I can see, from my albeit limited perspective, that the population in WvW is dwindling more each day. I see many posts in chat about how it just isn't fun anymore. Defending is a pain, siege is a lot easier now without damage mitigation per tier for walls and gates. The servers with the biggest populations are always going to win no matter what. Instead of one big blob they break up into smaller mini-blobs of 10-20 and spread out over a map. Meanwhile a paltry 20 defenders try to cover every tower and keep. The sheer size of the red borderland is such that defenders have no chance unless they can get more people - which is not going to happen given the current trickle of people leaving - and make no mistake, they are leaving. WvW is dying. Let's do it all a favour and put it out of its misery.

it's not fun anymore also because as outnumbered defender u cant even do a lastman standing fight because bigger zergs will so easily crush you with this meta (powercreep, overhealing) number matter more than ever before.

[Chaba.5410]

In case anyone missed it from yesterday's stream, Anet is working on invisible commander tags for private squads.

https://clips.twitch.tv/PlainMoistTurtleDendiFace

[SloRules.3560]

@"Chaba.5410" said:In case anyone missed it from yesterday's stream, Anet is working on invisible commander tags for private squads.

https://clips.twitch.tv/PlainMoistTurtleDendiFace

Wait seriously? Where was this 5 years ago???

[Dami.5046]

Oh that's nice, instead of addressing the toxic nature of WvW, they are just hiding it. Crikey. Selfish isn't the word.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Dami.5046 said:Oh that's nice, instead of addressing the toxic nature of WvW, they are just hiding it. Crikey. Selfish isn't the word.

This time we agree 100%.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@reddie.5861 said:

@Balsa.3951 said:

@reddie.5861 said:

@"Rotten Bones.2391" said:

01:20:36

• Ben created a couple of prototypes, like a skill that would most likely be unlocked with the ability system that throws a spear and dismounts both you and the target, this skill is already working, the question is whether the devs want it in the game or not

Thanks to Ben and Ray for the info shared in this stream and thanks to Z for giving them the go-ahead to be more open with what they're working on. I'm sure I missed a thing or two, please add it in the comments or correct any mistakes I've made.

"throws a spear, massive slow animation they dodge and huehue u just lost ur +10k HP advantage""throws a spear, mini little bump in the map, cant see target" huehue u just lost ur +10K HP advantage.

why not just lower mount HP to 2k? what the big deal with it?

Bcs me want a little bit skill involved

what skill? like haha look at me i dodge 3 times i have ~10 to 12k hp and i refuse to get off my mount untill im about to die if that not happening i wait till i can zerg my lonely enemy?

mounts are worst thing that got added to WvW for any1 but blobbers..and then u hear on this stream we listen to every1.. ye right its so hard to lower the mount to be a 1 shot material?

mounts right now are used like rev hammers run tru bunch of CC to clear path cus why not? my mount has 10k HP and 3 dodges and has cc immunity so who cares if there is a trillion marks on floor we just dodge and dodge turn around dodge again and last little bit i can sustain before im back at my blob commander..my god so much skill involved..

might aswell get mount a skill 10 seconds invul so we can pop all cc etc infront of us woohoo.personally im quite sure there tons of people who have dropped gw2 as main game right now and are waiting for new game to be released to leave WvW for good.cus there hasnt been a single person so far who could explain me what mounts have done in WvW that its a great addition to the game.cus i only see negative things.

who ever gonna tell me i can run faster back to group, thats bad. why? because deffending or attacking force is winning by taking down people if u increase speed people come back the attackers will always be in favor. eventually sups will be drained and the keep/tower is wide open then its a matter off fighting ones the lord is down u got all deffenders going for the circle and u win the fight there if ur not braindead.

mount is just horrible add to wvw, used to like gw2 cus u can just logout for months/years and come back slap on different sigils and ur good to go again.but now? well old players are forced to buy PoF in order to compete in WvW all players are forced to get mount in order to keep up with commander.all bad things millions of bad thing vs nothing good.

I'm 100% with you as far capture point trolling goes. I do not find this behavior beneficial in any way and I don't think it was intended that a defender be able to hold off capture indefinitely without actually engaging an enemy on the point. Regardless of what they do for dismount skills, mounted players should not be allowed to contribute toward capturing objectives. Turn that off and it's problem solved as far as I'm concerned.

However, overall I am a big fan of the warclaw. I enjoy the pounce mechanic, even if it doesn't always work in my favor. But mostly I enjoy the movement speed. You say it's all negatives. I believe you truly see it that way. But speaking for myself as a solo roamer, one of my top two issues with WvW (spending inordinate amounts of time walking across the map) was resolved satisfactorily by the warclaw implementation and I have become a full time WvW roamer as a result.