Notes from the latest "Let's Play #GuildWars2 World vs World with the Developers"

[reddie.5861]

@"Rotten Bones.2391" said:

01:20:36

• Ben created a couple of prototypes, like a skill that would most likely be unlocked with the ability system that throws a spear and dismounts both you and the target, this skill is already working, the question is whether the devs want it in the game or not

Thanks to Ben and Ray for the info shared in this stream and thanks to Z for giving them the go-ahead to be more open with what they're working on. I'm sure I missed a thing or two, please add it in the comments or correct any mistakes I've made.

"throws a spear, massive slow animation they dodge and huehue u just lost ur +10k HP advantage""throws a spear, mini little bump in the map, cant see target" huehue u just lost ur +10K HP advantage.

why not just lower mount HP to 2k? what the big deal with it?

[Balsa.3951]

@reddie.5861 said:

@"Rotten Bones.2391" said:

01:20:36

• Ben created a couple of prototypes, like a skill that would most likely be unlocked with the ability system that throws a spear and dismounts both you and the target, this skill is already working, the question is whether the devs want it in the game or not

Thanks to Ben and Ray for the info shared in this stream and thanks to Z for giving them the go-ahead to be more open with what they're working on. I'm sure I missed a thing or two, please add it in the comments or correct any mistakes I've made.

"throws a spear, massive slow animation they dodge and huehue u just lost ur +10k HP advantage""throws a spear, mini little bump in the map, cant see target" huehue u just lost ur +10K HP advantage.

why not just lower mount HP to 2k? what the big deal with it?

Bcs me want a little bit skill involved

[displayname.8315]

@Tiny Doom.4380 said:I have always found defending hugely more exciting and enjoyable than attacking. The glory days of epic Garrison defences lasting all Sunday afternoon! Last ditch fights that somehow turn into improbable saves. I really miss bannering the Lord or combat rezzing him after banners were nerfed.

The only time attacking structures is really fun is when they are very heavily defended and it takes mutiple attempts and several hours to wear the defences down. That used to be fairly common back before HoT, when I would often get home from work and spend 2-3 hours doing nothing but trying to take Bay (we had some very determined commanders back then). Even if we failed I went to bed happy after a great evening trying.

Anything that shortens any aspect of structure siege, offense or defense, is a retrograde move in my book. That said, it's also pointless to have structures sitting at T3/Full supply for days at a stretch. I'd be all for removing the automation of upgraders so we had to go back to players running supply to raise the tiers. A lot of the current issues come from that automation.

Ah yes back when WvW players still logged in. Time to entry is still about the same and depends on the players almost entirely. The attackers strategy and the defenders ability.

When a OG commander plays you notice the difference right away.

[Whiteout.1975]

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Safandula.8723 said:

@"Whiteout.1975" said:

• Also, this is just a sudden thought... What would be interesting to me is if the
  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Outnumbered
  buff increased the defenses (Preferably the "Toughness" of such objectives)... Maybe this would help delay a otherwise "swift" steamroll for those "Outnumbered"?I don't like this idea. Sneaky keep rush is a good way of act, and it's in scouts job to pull other ppl to the border. Defenders shouldn't get any help just becouse they are lower in numbers

The defenders should certainly gain a powerful Lord to make the attackers' lives difficult. On Eternal Battlegrounds, Alpine and The Desert Earth Keep/Stalwart Bastion/Garrison-Equivalent, the lords are too kitten to contribute to the defense.

I fear that the current route will send us into an ever circling karma train gamemode because when it's too difficult to defend, people will just backcap. Round and round we go.

Make no mistake, the powerful Lords on desert map are great levellers that make "epic defenses" a thing.

^ This basically... If you're outnumbered.

It will just be faster K-Trains... Taking turns back-capping until one side gives up. And I'm willing to bet it's gonna be the side getting tired of running from the blob or dying to it; during that whole mindless circus. Many more times than not.WvW shouldn't be some mindless farm mowing down everything in your path; just because it's convenient. It should be challenging, because if it's not. Then most people looking for meaningful PvP content, in WvW, will lose interest faster. The kind of content WvW could use more of IMO.

@Safandula.8723 Okay. I would add more context to my idea on possible ways it could be implemented. In consideration to the future changes mentioned here. Such as Toughness % increase amount... Whether or not a certain amount of "Player(s)" must be present with "Outnumbered buff" in said objective. In order for it to take effect.However, that wouldn't matter for you because ultimately you say: "Defenders shouldn't get any help just becouse they are lower in numbers"... I'm trying to understand the reasoning after "because". Though, I cannot. I mean perhaps if you didn't want WvW to be more challenging. Then I could see, if that's your opinion/liking. Though, I figured I'd ask the following because I just don't understand, but maybe it's just me...

So why should defender's not get "help", if they are "outnumbered"?

[reddie.5861]

@Balsa.3951 said:

@reddie.5861 said:

@"Rotten Bones.2391" said:

01:20:36

• Ben created a couple of prototypes, like a skill that would most likely be unlocked with the ability system that throws a spear and dismounts both you and the target, this skill is already working, the question is whether the devs want it in the game or not

Thanks to Ben and Ray for the info shared in this stream and thanks to Z for giving them the go-ahead to be more open with what they're working on. I'm sure I missed a thing or two, please add it in the comments or correct any mistakes I've made.

"throws a spear, massive slow animation they dodge and huehue u just lost ur +10k HP advantage""throws a spear, mini little bump in the map, cant see target" huehue u just lost ur +10K HP advantage.

why not just lower mount HP to 2k? what the big deal with it?

Bcs me want a little bit skill involved

what skill? like haha look at me i dodge 3 times i have ~10 to 12k hp and i refuse to get off my mount untill im about to die if that not happening i wait till i can zerg my lonely enemy?

mounts are worst thing that got added to WvW for any1 but blobbers..and then u hear on this stream we listen to every1.. ye right its so hard to lower the mount to be a 1 shot material?

mounts right now are used like rev hammers run tru bunch of CC to clear path cus why not? my mount has 10k HP and 3 dodges and has cc immunity so who cares if there is a trillion marks on floor we just dodge and dodge turn around dodge again and last little bit i can sustain before im back at my blob commander..my god so much skill involved..

might aswell get mount a skill 10 seconds invul so we can pop all cc etc infront of us woohoo.personally im quite sure there tons of people who have dropped gw2 as main game right now and are waiting for new game to be released to leave WvW for good.cus there hasnt been a single person so far who could explain me what mounts have done in WvW that its a great addition to the game.cus i only see negative things.

who ever gonna tell me i can run faster back to group, thats bad. why? because deffending or attacking force is winning by taking down people if u increase speed people come back the attackers will always be in favor. eventually sups will be drained and the keep/tower is wide open then its a matter off fighting ones the lord is down u got all deffenders going for the circle and u win the fight there if ur not braindead.

mount is just horrible add to wvw, used to like gw2 cus u can just logout for months/years and come back slap on different sigils and ur good to go again.but now? well old players are forced to buy PoF in order to compete in WvW all players are forced to get mount in order to keep up with commander.all bad things millions of bad thing vs nothing good.

[Balsa.3951]

@reddie.5861 said:

@Balsa.3951 said:

@reddie.5861 said:

@"Rotten Bones.2391" said:

01:20:36

• Ben created a couple of prototypes, like a skill that would most likely be unlocked with the ability system that throws a spear and dismounts both you and the target, this skill is already working, the question is whether the devs want it in the game or not

Thanks to Ben and Ray for the info shared in this stream and thanks to Z for giving them the go-ahead to be more open with what they're working on. I'm sure I missed a thing or two, please add it in the comments or correct any mistakes I've made.

"throws a spear, massive slow animation they dodge and huehue u just lost ur +10k HP advantage""throws a spear, mini little bump in the map, cant see target" huehue u just lost ur +10K HP advantage.

why not just lower mount HP to 2k? what the big deal with it?

Bcs me want a little bit skill involved

what skill? like haha look at me i dodge 3 times i have ~10 to 12k hp and i refuse to get off my mount untill im about to die if that not happening i wait till i can zerg my lonely enemy?

mounts are worst thing that got added to WvW for any1 but blobbers..and then u hear on this stream we listen to every1.. ye right its so hard to lower the mount to be a 1 shot material?

mounts right now are used like rev hammers run tru bunch of CC to clear path cus why not? my mount has 10k HP and 3 dodges and has cc immunity so who cares if there is a trillion marks on floor we just dodge and dodge turn around dodge again and last little bit i can sustain before im back at my blob commander..my god so much skill involved..

might aswell get mount a skill 10 seconds invul so we can pop all cc etc infront of us woohoo.personally im quite sure there tons of people who have dropped gw2 as main game right now and are waiting for new game to be released to leave WvW for good.cus there hasnt been a single person so far who could explain me what mounts have done in WvW that its a great addition to the game.cus i only see negative things.

who ever gonna tell me i can run faster back to group, thats bad. why? because deffending or attacking force is winning by taking down people if u increase speed people come back the attackers will always be in favor. eventually sups will be drained and the keep/tower is wide open then its a matter off fighting ones the lord is down u got all deffenders going for the circle and u win the fight there if ur not braindead.

mount is just horrible add to wvw, used to like gw2 cus u can just logout for months/years and come back slap on different sigils and ur good to go again.but now? well old players are forced to buy PoF in order to compete in WvW all players are forced to get mount in order to keep up with commander.all bad things millions of bad thing vs nothing good.

I’m confused was not stated that a spear ability will be implemented to dismount people ? I talked about the skill to do that instead of press 1 on a longbow once and dismount everyone

[Caedmon.6798]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:The current design includes rewards for defense as well. I probably misspoke on stream. We we want to encourage combat at objectives, both defending and attacking.

it would be nice if defenders could actually stand on walls and shoot at the attackers without getting pulled/ aoe'd to death in seconds ;-).I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

So,cannons are for show ?

[Dawdler.8521]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:The current design includes rewards for defense as well. I probably misspoke on stream. We we want to encourage combat at objectives, both defending and attacking.

it would be nice if defenders could actually stand on walls and shoot at the attackers without getting pulled/ aoe'd to death in seconds ;-).I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

So,cannons are for show ?Yes. Against a decent zerg, they are useless. Smallscale dont engage them or do it when they are unmanned, at best they are a deterrence, rarely a defense. They are mostly for show and provide little to no defense if the enemy is serious about the cap.

Or have you seen a 70 man borderzerg look at south bay with 1 random canon manned going "oh no, turn around, run away, we cant do this, they even got guards!!!"

[Caedmon.6798]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:The current design includes rewards for defense as well. I probably misspoke on stream. We we want to encourage combat at objectives, both defending and attacking.

it would be nice if defenders could actually stand on walls and shoot at the attackers without getting pulled/ aoe'd to death in seconds ;-).I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

So,cannons are for show ?Yes. Against a decent zerg, they are useless. Smallscale dont engage them or do it when they are unmanned, at best they are a deterrence, rarely a defense. They are mostly for show and provide little to no defense if the enemy is serious about the cap.

Or have you seen a 70 man borderzerg look at south bay with 1 random canon manned going "oh no, turn around, run away, we cant do this, they even got guards!!!"

Well..Thats exactly the point. They shouldnt be "just for show",as walls are also not just for show..And definetely not only made for when the attacking force gets in the structure to have fights on those walls,they serve another purpose which just isnt working very well because of named issues with walls and aoe's overlapping them entirely.

[bq pd.2148]

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"prototypedragon.1406" said:

at 1:30 in this video anet it seems that this ele may be hacking after they die, the account name was mcgass.9258 character name Healina Darksoul mcgass I believe.

Incorrect. The troll npc there banner ressed them like a proper warrior would use instead of rampage. Hue hue hue. Also off topic!

D:

but it is an ogre, not a troll.. and their chieftain!but yeah not the first time people mistake it for a hack :3

[Mbelch.9028]

@Rotten Bones.2391 said:01:20:36

• Ben created a couple of prototypes, like a skill that would most likely be unlocked with the ability system that throws a spear and dismounts both you and the target, this skill is already working, the question is whether the devs want it in the game or not

I rather want this. Please make it happen Anet team.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"prototypedragon.1406" said:

at 1:30 in this video anet it seems that this ele may be hacking after they die, the account name was mcgass.9258 character name Healina Darksoul mcgass I believe.

Incorrect. The troll npc there banner ressed them like a proper warrior would use instead of rampage. Hue hue hue. Also off topic!

D:

but it is an ogre, not a troll.. and their chieftain!but yeah not the first time people mistake it for a hack :3

Troll is more accurate given the present circumstance. <3

[LetoII.3782]

If someone was using an illegal res, why would they use it when in a 6v1 with no hope of escape?

[nthmetal.9652]

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is not to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

[Strider Pj.2193]

Walls shouldn’t offer more protection.

But I should be able to be more active whileOn a wall.

If a player can hit me with a projectile, I should be able to hit them with a projectile from the same spot with the same weapons.

Same thing with AOEs. The only one that is the same is ranger Long Bow 5 (barrage).

• If I can be hit in a spot by meteor, I should be able to hit them with a meteor.
• If I can be hit with a shade or well, I should be able to hit them with a shade or well.
• If I can be hit by a phase smash, etc..

The wall keeps the melee train out, and it prevents melee from being able to hit people outside as well, unless the defenders leave to fight.

It offers a better view of the terrain around (well unless you are in one of the poorly designed keeps that sit in the ground SMH)

It also delays attackers.

Walls got a tweak they needed with this patch. Now skills and walls need a tweak to make some aspects ‘equal’> @nthmetal.9652 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

At the end of the day, the 50 attacking the tower are not going to be engaged by the five people defending it. They'll just get in quicker and the five will port out sooner. The KTrainers have won out and will now have an easier time.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Blockhead Magee.3092" said:At the end of the day, the 50 attacking the tower are not going to be engaged by the five people defending it. They'll just get in quicker and the five will port out sooner. The KTrainers have won out and will now have an easier time.

How is this any different from before? Seriously, at what point in the last 6 years did we go "huehue these T3 sure keeps karmatrainer zergs away!" when fighting on outnumbered borders where the enemy has borderzergs and you have a handfull of people?

The change did nothing to population balance. It just lowered the armor. Since its an equal change for all 3 server in the matchup... The strong server still wins and karmatrains and the weak server still looses and fight outmanned...

Now its just less pointless.

[aspirine.5839]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Walls shouldn’t offer more protection.

But I should be able to be more active whileOn a wall.

If a player can hit me with a projectile, I should be able to hit them with a projectile from the same spot with the same weapons.

Same thing with AOEs. The only one that is the same is ranger Long Bow 5 (barrage).

• If I can be hit in a spot by meteor, I should be able to hit them with a meteor.
• If I can be hit with a shade or well, I should be able to hit them with a shade or well.
• If I can be hit by a phase smash, etc..

The wall keeps the melee train out, and it prevents melee from being able to hit people outside as well, unless the defenders leave to fight.

It offers a better view of the terrain around (well unless you are in one of the poorly designed keeps that sit in the ground SMH)

It also delays attackers.

Walls got a tweak they needed with this patch. Now skills and walls need a tweak to make some aspects ‘equal’> @nthmetal.9652 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

Very well said sir.

[Dawdler.8521]

@aspirine.5839 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Walls shouldn’t offer

more

protection.

But I should be able to be more active whileOn a wall.

If a player can hit me with a projectile, I should be able to hit them with a projectile from the same spot with the same weapons.

Same thing with AOEs. The only one that is the same is ranger Long Bow 5 (barrage).

• If I can be hit in a spot by meteor, I should be able to hit them with a meteor.
• If I can be hit with a shade or well, I should be able to hit them with a shade or well.
• If I can be hit by a phase smash, etc..

The wall keeps the melee train out, and it prevents melee from being able to hit people outside as well, unless the defenders leave to fight.

It offers a better view of the terrain around (well unless you are in one of the poorly designed keeps that sit in the ground SMH)

It also delays attackers.

Walls got a tweak they needed with this patch. Now skills and walls need a tweak to make some aspects ‘equal’> @nthmetal.9652 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

Very well said sir.I found it more redundant than well said.

The "problem" there is that its both already possible and completely impossible by rules of AoE and LoS at the same time.

You can stand on a wall and shoot any AoE at anyone that can shoot any AoE at you. This is a fact. So all criterias fullfilled.

Of course that means you are on the edge of the wall looking down. If you stand on the center of a wall... You cant hit them. Because Line of Sight. Yet they can hit you. Because AoE. Thats how AoE and LoS work.

"Fixing" this would mean either deleting AoE or deleting LoS. GG on the last part, getting hit by rapid fire though a wall. The former... Fine I guess? Zergs would complain though, I'm sure.

There is also already weapons that bypass this so I could argue... Bring the right class. A mortar engineer in action cam can arc shots over the walls, hitting stuff below the wall while on the wall that LoS would otherwise block.

TL;DR its unfixable

[Svarty.8019]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@aspirine.5839 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Walls shouldn’t offer

more

protection.

But I should be able to be more active whileOn a wall.

If a player can hit me with a projectile, I should be able to hit them with a projectile from the same spot with the same weapons.

Same thing with AOEs. The only one that is the same is ranger Long Bow 5 (barrage).

• If I can be hit in a spot by meteor, I should be able to hit them with a meteor.
• If I can be hit with a shade or well, I should be able to hit them with a shade or well.
• If I can be hit by a phase smash, etc..

The wall keeps the melee train out, and it prevents melee from being able to hit people outside as well, unless the defenders leave to fight.

It offers a better view of the terrain around (well unless you are in one of the poorly designed keeps that sit in the ground SMH)

It also delays attackers.

Walls got a tweak they needed with this patch. Now skills and walls need a tweak to make some aspects ‘equal’> @nthmetal.9652 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

Very well said sir.I found it more redundant than well said.

The "problem" there is that its both

already possible

and

completely impossible by rules of AoE and LoS

at the same time.

You can stand on a wall and shoot any AoE at anyone that can shoot any AoE at you. This is a fact. So all criterias fullfilled.

Of course that means you are on the edge of the wall looking down. If you stand on the center of a wall... You cant hit them. Because Line of Sight. Yet they can hit you. Because AoE. Thats how AoE and LoS work.

"Fixing" this would mean either deleting AoE or deleting LoS. GG on the last part, getting hit by rapid fire though a wall. The former... Fine I guess? Zergs would complain though, I'm sure.

There is also already weapons that bypass this so I could argue... Bring the right class. A mortar engineer in action cam can arc shots over the walls, hitting stuff below the wall while on the wall that LoS would otherwise block.

TL;DR its unfixable

Well, from what I can tell you made some progress and then fell into despair at the end.

I think deleting LoS for some abilities isn't the worst idea ever, but it would be OP for some cough Meteors cough .

Are we looking at the problem in the correct manner, though? Is the problem the AoE? Or is it the AoE and pulls? Is it the wall spike? What if the top of the wall was a perma-stab zone? Would that help?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@aspirine.5839 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Walls shouldn’t offer

more

protection.

But I should be able to be more active whileOn a wall.

If a player can hit me with a projectile, I should be able to hit them with a projectile from the same spot with the same weapons.

Same thing with AOEs. The only one that is the same is ranger Long Bow 5 (barrage).

• If I can be hit in a spot by meteor, I should be able to hit them with a meteor.
• If I can be hit with a shade or well, I should be able to hit them with a shade or well.
• If I can be hit by a phase smash, etc..

The wall keeps the melee train out, and it prevents melee from being able to hit people outside as well, unless the defenders leave to fight.

It offers a better view of the terrain around (well unless you are in one of the poorly designed keeps that sit in the ground SMH)

It also delays attackers.

Walls got a tweak they needed with this patch. Now skills and walls need a tweak to make some aspects ‘equal’> @nthmetal.9652 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

Very well said sir.I found it more redundant than well said.

The "problem" there is that its both

already possible

and

completely impossible by rules of AoE and LoS

at the same time.

You can stand on a wall and shoot any AoE at anyone that can shoot any AoE at you. This is a fact. So all criterias fullfilled.

Of course that means you are on the edge of the wall looking down. If you stand on the center of a wall... You cant hit them. Because Line of Sight. Yet they can hit you. Because AoE. Thats how AoE and LoS work.

"Fixing" this would mean either deleting AoE or deleting LoS. GG on the last part, getting hit by rapid fire though a wall. The former... Fine I guess? Zergs would complain though, I'm sure.

There is also already weapons that bypass this so I could argue... Bring the right class. A mortar engineer in action cam can arc shots over the walls, hitting stuff below the wall while on the wall that LoS would otherwise block.

TL;DR its unfixable

Hit each other from the same spot with the same weapons.

It may be unfixable, but that is what I would hope it would be.

But that part isn’t redundant.

If I can be hit from the middle of the wall, I should be able to hit someone from the middle of the wall.Edge of wall already exists.

‘Other than edge of the wall’ needs to be fixed.

And again, maybe it cant.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@aspirine.5839 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Walls shouldn’t offer

more

protection.

But I should be able to be more active whileOn a wall.

If a player can hit me with a projectile, I should be able to hit them with a projectile from the same spot with the same weapons.

Same thing with AOEs. The only one that is the same is ranger Long Bow 5 (barrage).

• If I can be hit in a spot by meteor, I should be able to hit them with a meteor.
• If I can be hit with a shade or well, I should be able to hit them with a shade or well.
• If I can be hit by a phase smash, etc..

The wall keeps the melee train out, and it prevents melee from being able to hit people outside as well, unless the defenders leave to fight.

It offers a better view of the terrain around (well unless you are in one of the poorly designed keeps that sit in the ground SMH)

It also delays attackers.

Walls got a tweak they needed with this patch. Now skills and walls need a tweak to make some aspects ‘equal’> @nthmetal.9652 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

Very well said sir.I found it more redundant than well said.

The "problem" there is that its both

already possible

and

completely impossible by rules of AoE and LoS

at the same time.

You can stand on a wall and shoot any AoE at anyone that can shoot any AoE at you. This is a fact. So all criterias fullfilled.

Of course that means you are on the edge of the wall looking down. If you stand on the center of a wall... You cant hit them. Because Line of Sight. Yet they can hit you. Because AoE. Thats how AoE and LoS work.

"Fixing" this would mean either deleting AoE or deleting LoS. GG on the last part, getting hit by rapid fire though a wall. The former... Fine I guess? Zergs would complain though, I'm sure.

There is also already weapons that bypass this so I could argue... Bring the right class. A mortar engineer in action cam can arc shots over the walls, hitting stuff below the wall while on the wall that LoS would otherwise block.

TL;DR its unfixable

Hit each other from the same spot with the same weapons.

It may be unfixable, but that is what I would hope it would be.

But that part isn’t redundant.

If I can be hit from the middle of the wall, I should be able to hit someone from the middle of the wall.Edge of wall already exists.

‘Other than edge of the wall’ needs to be fixed.

And again, maybe it cant.

Although I doubt ANET will have the budget (referring to polycount too) to actually implement anymore modeling on walls.

D:

[Gorani.7205]

Concerning the last few posts about walls:We are currently at a situation where the game mechanics put two "unrealistic things" against each other for the sum of two benefits for the attacker at the base of the wall.

1. The attackers AoE circle warps around the edge of the wall, making it hit things on the battlements without LoS. This happens because the game engine is designed that way and walls are higher than their width (you can do some Math with the Pythagorean theorem if you want, too).
2. The defenders AoE circle behave the same way, but can't reach the base of the wall (see 1.) Therefore the geometry of the walls work against the defenders.
3. The direct LoS also works in favour of the attackers (for projectile attacks, pulls etc.), because you basically target "the part that is peaking out" of the enemy. Due to the elevation of the defender, he has to move much closer to the outer edge of the wall to make LoS contact than someone at the base of the wall.
4. Bad wall design is also the reason for putting down an abundance of hated Arrow Carts. The large AoE circle of ACs counters the bad wall design of the towers and keeps, because it can reach the base of the wall.

Is there a solution to the problem at the current state, without changing major game mechanics and designs? NoWhat could be solutions?

1. Nerf the AoE circles that expansion professions got in a WvW/PvE skill split. Scourge red circles of doom would be the prime target of that nerf.
2. Nerf the AoE damage that expansion professions got in a WvW/PvE skill split. That would also have a huge impact on open field fights which would start a cascade of other problems
3. Changing the geometry of walls by raising the backside or putting some merlons there. Defender could reduce the LoS disadvantage a bit with that, although it is in contradiction of historically accurate walls with merlons (where the merlons ar on the outer edge).
4. Adding a "siege skill" to the wall section (like a lever at the inner edge of the wall) that can activate a certain buff for all defenders on the top of the wall for a short time (e.g Iron Hide + Stability or a burst of Push ways from the base of the wall). Defenders would have to coordinate the skill for a useful counter attack (go to the edge and throw a disabler) while attacks would still have a chance to react (stability reflects etc.). The cool down of the "wall skill" could be a good lever to balance it for the devs and also an opportunity to add another WvW mastery ability to the game.

Anyway, the problem will not be solved by small changes, it requires changes that will require a lot of dev time we all know is very limited in WvW.

PS: Shadiversity videos on castles and walls are excellent. I advice everyone to watch them.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@aspirine.5839 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Walls shouldn’t offer

more

protection.

But I should be able to be more active whileOn a wall.

If a player can hit me with a projectile, I should be able to hit them with a projectile from the same spot with the same weapons.

Same thing with AOEs. The only one that is the same is ranger Long Bow 5 (barrage).

• If I can be hit in a spot by meteor, I should be able to hit them with a meteor.
• If I can be hit with a shade or well, I should be able to hit them with a shade or well.
• If I can be hit by a phase smash, etc..

The wall keeps the melee train out, and it prevents melee from being able to hit people outside as well, unless the defenders leave to fight.

It offers a better view of the terrain around (well unless you are in one of the poorly designed keeps that sit in the ground SMH)

It also delays attackers.

Walls got a tweak they needed with this patch. Now skills and walls need a tweak to make some aspects ‘equal’> @nthmetal.9652 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I would still argue that the purpose of GW2 walls is

not

to provide a platform for defense. Its merely a delay mechanism for combat inside and outside the objective, keeping the objective safe from people just running in to cap. They arent useless as such and you can stand on it, but if you stand in circles, you get killed by circles.

IMO there is no problem there. The only problem is lingering necro AoE marks allowing zergs to light up walls for a long time with no effort, which has nothing to do with walls themselves.

There is more than one problem there. Walls do offer protection. While they don't protect you from big areas, they do protect you from melee and even a lot of ranged attacks ("obstructed") - this different treatment in regards of protection isn't really great. It also is highly inconsistent, as everyone playing a ranged attack class dealing with siege such as burning oil and cannons can probably tell.

IMO the walls should either offer more or less protection. With the recent change to bringing walls or gates down, IMO they should offer more protection against any form of ranged attack, including area attacks. As things currently stand, professions with a lot of AOE and big AOE are generally already at an advantage in the WvW mode, this here being just one more thing they bring as a something useful, while not really offering a drawback compared to other forms of attacks.

Very well said sir.I found it more redundant than well said.

The "problem" there is that its both

already possible

and

completely impossible by rules of AoE and LoS

at the same time.

You can stand on a wall and shoot any AoE at anyone that can shoot any AoE at you. This is a fact. So all criterias fullfilled.

Of course that means you are on the edge of the wall looking down. If you stand on the center of a wall... You cant hit them. Because Line of Sight. Yet they can hit you. Because AoE. Thats how AoE and LoS work.

"Fixing" this would mean either deleting AoE or deleting LoS. GG on the last part, getting hit by rapid fire though a wall. The former... Fine I guess? Zergs would complain though, I'm sure.

There is also already weapons that bypass this so I could argue... Bring the right class. A mortar engineer in action cam can arc shots over the walls, hitting stuff below the wall while on the wall that LoS would otherwise block.

TL;DR its unfixable

Hit each other from the same spot with the same weapons.

It may be unfixable, but that is what I would hope it would be.

But that part isn’t redundant.

If I can be hit from the middle of the wall, I should be able to hit someone from the middle of the wall.Edge of wall already exists.

‘Other than edge of the wall’ needs to be fixed.

And again, maybe it cant.It's not a matter of maybe. You can not.

Again, if you are supposed to be able to hit someone from the middle of the wall you will break LoS rules. It would literally break the game and allow you to shoot through walls. This would have to be globally implemented so no LoS anywhere. Shoot through walls, through doors, the works. That's the result.

Regarding "real" walls as above in the video, they suffer the exact same problem and it wouldnt be fixable in real life any more than it is ingame because of the exact same mechanics. Any way you look at it, people below will be able to use their AoE against people that cannot LoS them. Because, for some mysterious reason, they didnt have necromancers casting giant rings of death or elementalists casting meteor showers during the medieval times so the AoE part of personal attacks (ignoring siege) didnt really exist. If it did, you can be very sure that yes, those standing in the middle of such a tower with maticulations (or however it's spelled, dont care) would still have meteors dropping on their heads while they cant see the enemy to shoot their crossbows back at them.

With such design you would only move the problem to the inner edge of the wall - while you may be able to hit from the middle, you now cannot hit from the inner but the AoE will be able to reach inner as they can see up the openings and lay AoE closer to the middle of the wall.

It's futile.

[SWI.4127]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:The current design includes rewards for defense as well. I probably misspoke on stream. We we want to encourage combat at objectives, both defending and attacking.

it would be nice if defenders could actually stand on walls and shoot at the attackers without getting pulled/ aoe'd to death in seconds ;-).

You can if you are careful about it. But if you mean that it would be nice if you could just stand on the lip of the wall and freecast with impunity, I strongly disagree. If you are in range to hit people, they should be able to hit you.