Chronomancer Tradeoff Brainstorm

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@Takashiro.8701 said:I cant really think of a way to give Chrono a tradeoff without destroying the synergy its supposed to have with core skills/traits.So I'd say add an F5 to Core Mes too, just like how they added a new f-skill to Core Revenant.Alternatively, give Core Mesmers shatters some additional effects, similar to how Master of Fragmentation works?

Buffing Mesmer?

I think someone wants to see the Forum burn down in raging flames.

[ZDragon.3046]

if you are talking about making trade offs why are you giving new skills to core ????

Here is how you do it.

• No new f5 skill for core
• Chrono looses 4f in exchange for f5 (the time splitter skill gets a cd reduction as a result)
• Mirage keeps f4 from core but now has a lower clone cap of 1 or 2 clones with the clone/ clones having increased hp or

[Noodle Ant.1605]

The idea behind giving core mes something is that even if you implement some tradeoff/change to the especs, core is still bad and largely undesirable in comparison.

Also, some of the suggestions are a bit more convoluted than they seem, e.g.

Csplit (F5) replaces Distortion (F4); reduce CD of CsplitNow although considerations such as lowering the CD are being made, the CD reduction makes even more of a mess since it would mean chrono gets to double cast or exploit core mes more often, more accessible elites, and although it may look ‘good’ for PvP (especially for those who just have it against the mes spec as a whole), it further separates the two PvE wise besides wowee core mes can invuln for 4s!.

If anything, the chrono should at least be forced to use Csplit and its unique traits (alacrity, chronophantasma, etc) appropriately to gain an edge over core mes; otherwise the player should just be better off playing core mes itself, thus the proposal of simply nerfing the chrono traitline to be ‘weak’ relative to core for a tradeoff, or any other suggestions following the same line of thought.

[derd.6413]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:The idea behind giving core mes something is that even if you implement some tradeoff/change to the especs, core is still bad and largely undesirable in comparison.

Also, some of the suggestions are a bit more convoluted than they seem, e.g.

Csplit (F5) replaces Distortion (F4); reduce CD of CsplitNow although considerations such as lowering the CD are being made, the CD reduction makes even more of a mess since it would mean chrono gets to double cast or

exploit

core mes more often, more accessible elites, and although it may look ‘good’ for PvP (especially for those who just have it against the mes spec as a whole), it further separates the two PvE wise besides

wowee core mes can invuln for 4s!

.

If anything, the chrono should at least be forced to use Csplit and its unique traits (alacrity, chronophantasma, etc) appropriately to gain an edge over core mes; otherwise the player should just be better off playing core mes itself, thus the proposal of simply nerfing the chrono traitline to be ‘weak’ relative to core for a tradeoff, or any other suggestions following the same line of thought.

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:The idea behind giving core mes something is that even if you implement some tradeoff/change to the especs, core is still

bad

and largely undesirable in comparison.

well imo that's like spraying deodorant on a full trashcan

[Vieux P.1238]

It don't matter no more. Atm the damage output from confusion & torment & everything else it dishes out is so weak that any class with regen outways it's damage. It's sad it got to this point. So i don't see any good trade off util somekind of damage output is balanced back in.

[Xstein.2187]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:

@"Takashiro.8701" said:If we're talking about replacing a shatter, why Diversion/Distortion and not Cry of Frustration? Since thats the condi shatter and Chrono is the power spec anyway with Mirage being the condi one? Both Diversion and Distortion are a vital part of all Mesmer Specs, having their respective use on all of them but F2 on Chrono is a bit more "just a bonus shatter" if F1 is on CD. If we're wanting to replace any shatters that should be the one imo.

Chrono wasn't designed to be a power spec in the first place either. It wasn't designed to be a damage spec.It was clearly designed with power shatter in mind, which was the reigning mesmer meta at the time. So I disagree.

I think we can both agree for sure that it was designed as a support spec first and foremost.

If it was designed as a power shatter spec, then they failed miserably as the main PvP build (after initial bunker chrono was nerfed) was condi chrono. Now, bunker is on top again. Bunker now seems like the current best specialization of chrono in PvP and I would currently agree with it maintaining that type of PvP specialization.However, regardless of this, I don't think this is worth arguing over.

In the end, I think if any elite spec is designed specifically for both dps and support than it is a bad design, especially when you could split those two into two different specializations. For example, I don't think Tempest should have both the best support build and the best dps build (regardless of weather or not that dps is condi or power). That would just cut down on build or trait line diversity for elementalists.

Main thing is I think core mesmer should be useful in the 3 gw2 game modes in some shape or form. By that I mean a pug group could take it without complaining. I don't care what type of useful build type that is. I just think it should be something. I also think you should give up that 'something' to specialize into something else. Right now chrono can out power damage core, it can remove boons better than core (double casting null field), and it can produce more stealth than core, it can likely still out condi dps core, it can bunker better than core, it can burst better than core, and it can support better than core. There is nothing core is better at and there is nothing core is even close to being 'viable' in.

There is at least no type of PvE content in which simply giving core mesmer more access to boon removal and invisibility will make it viable. I don't even think doing so in PvP would make it viable (at least sPvP).

[viquing.8254]

Never forget that core was cut from a third of his gameplay while they removed on death traits, that were used even with no blackwater in the so skilled-lol-shatter-bursts builds.And for me regarding to original concepts :

Core = duellist spec like said in description.Chrono = teamplay spec. (failed because well are bad but the initial goal was giving aoe effects on mesmer for teamplay.).Mirage = mobile duellist spec.

And I didn"t agree that :

@Quadox.7834 said:It was clearly designed with power shatter in mind, which was the reigning mesmer meta at the time. So I disagree.You see chrono being a power shatter spec (btw it was played condi 80% of time.) only because they removed on death and oriented mesmer gameplay to only shatter at the same time they release hoT but it's independant to the concept of chrono who were giving access to mesmer teamplay role.

[Xstein.2187]

I don't think you can have two classes specializing in the same thing, else what would you give up to specialize in something else? Additionally, it wouldn't really be a specialization anymore, would it?For example, if mesmer is specialized as a duelist, this should mean that you would have to give up that good dueling ability in order to play a different specialization, like mirage. If mirage is already a better dueler than core mesmer, even if you give something up as mesmer to play mirage (like a shatter), you aren't really giving anything up in the larger scope of things if mirage is still a better dueler than core mesmer anyway. Instead, it is just a mirage nerf.

Instead it becomes: If you want to specialize in bad dueling, pick core mesmer. If you want to specialize in good dueling, pick mirage.It doesn't matter if mirage would have to give something up over core, the above would still hold true. Even if what you give up on core mesmer makes mirage a worse dueler than core mesmer, all you have to do is reverse the terms. If you want to specialize in bad dueling, pick mirage. If you want to specialize in good dueling, pick core mesmer.

[viquing.8254]

Yeah I agree I'm just pointing the base class design anet made, not the differentiation we want.

[Xaylin.1860]

@ZDragon.3046 said:if you are talking about making trade offs why are you giving new skills to core ????

Here is how you do it.

• No new f5 skill for core
• Chrono looses 4f in exchange for f5 (the time splitter skill gets a cd reduction as a result)
• Mirage keeps f4 from core but now has a lower clone cap of 1 or 2 clones with the clone/ clones having increased hp or

If anything, Mirage should get a malus on Phantasm-damage.Mirage is a clone spec so reducing the number would be weird.

@viquing.8254 said:

Never forget that core was cut from a third of his gameplay while they removed on death traits, that were used even with no blackwater in the so skilled-lol-shatter-bursts builds.

And I'd never want to see them return, seriously... However, it is indeed problematic that Mirage checks so many boxes on what baseline Mesmer should be good at to begin with. Chrono is just a balancing nightmare because of CS. The only way I could see baseline Mesmer becoming better at power burst is if Chrono had some damage penalties (being it by default or when using CS).

[Quadox.7834]

@"viquing.8254" said:Never forget that core was cut from a third of his gameplay while they removed on death traits, that were used even with no blackwater in the so skilled-lol-shatter-bursts builds.And for me regarding to original concepts :

Core = duellist spec like said in description.Chrono = teamplay spec. (failed because well are bad but the initial goal was giving aoe effects on mesmer for teamplay.).Mirage = mobile duellist spec.

And I didn"t agree that :

@Quadox.7834 said:It was clearly designed with power shatter in mind, which was the reigning mesmer meta at the time. So I disagree.You see chrono being a power shatter spec (btw it was played condi 80% of time.) only because they removed on death and oriented mesmer gameplay to only shatter at the same time they release hoT but it's independant to the concept of chrono who were giving access to mesmer teamplay role.

Look at the middle line of chrono, you will see superspeed on shatter, illusionary reversion and quicknesd on shatter. On the minors there is movement speed. These traits were made specifically to improve power shatter and to alleviate some of the complaints about it (like the lack of swiftness/movespeed, and the fact that clones walk so slowly so they never catch up with their targets). The bottom like on chrono (with traits such as well heal) is more support/teamfight-focused. It is very clearly made with shatter in mind.

[Quadox.7834]

@Xstein.2187 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:

@"Takashiro.8701" said:If we're talking about replacing a shatter, why Diversion/Distortion and not Cry of Frustration? Since thats the condi shatter and Chrono is the power spec anyway with Mirage being the condi one? Both Diversion and Distortion are a vital part of all Mesmer Specs, having their respective use on all of them but F2 on Chrono is a bit more "just a bonus shatter" if F1 is on CD. If we're wanting to replace any shatters that should be the one imo.

Chrono wasn't designed to be a power spec in the first place either. It wasn't designed to be a damage spec.It was clearly designed with power shatter in mind, which was the reigning mesmer meta at the time. So I disagree.

I think we can both agree for sure that it was designed as a support spec first and foremost.Look at the traits and tell me how many for support? "Chrono wasn't designed to be a power/damage spec" is just plain wrong.

If it was designed as a power shatter spec, then they failed miserably as the main PvP build (after initial bunker chrono was nerfed) was condi chrono. Now, bunker is on top again. Bunker now seems like the current best specialization of chrono in PvP and I would currently agree with it maintaining that type of PvP specialization.However, regardless of this, I don't think this is worth arguing over.

Condi chrono was meta not because of chrono (I mean, it has 0 condi traits) but because core mesmer condi traits were overtuned (and have been nerfed multiple times since).

And what we call "bunker chrono" now is a power damage spec. It uses demolisher, is a sidenode duelist, does no team healing / very little support. It is essentially a phantasm build, which is a power damage spec, certainly not a supportive one.

In the end, I think if any elite spec is designed specifically for both dps and support than it is a bad design, especially when you could split those two into two different specializations. For example, I don't think Tempest should have both the best support build and the best dps build (regardless of weather or not that dps is condi or power). That would just cut down on build or trait line diversity for elementalists.If a single spec was made for one purpose/playstyle/build then there would be no need for being able to select your traits at all. If you look at chrono traits now, there is clearly different intended playstyles between the top row, middle row and botton row of the traitline.

Main thing is I think core mesmer should be useful in the 3 gw2 game modes in some shape or form. By that I mean a pug group could take it without complaining. I don't care what type of useful build type that is. I just think it should be something. I also think you should give up that 'something' to specialize into something else. Right now chrono can out power damage core, it can remove boons better than core (double casting null field), and it can produce more stealth than core, it can likely still out condi dps core, it can bunker better than core, it can burst better than core, and it can support better than core. There is nothing core is better at and there is nothing core is even close to being 'viable' in.

There is at least no type of PvE content in which simply giving core mesmer more access to boon removal and invisibility will make it viable. I don't even think doing so in PvP would make it viable (at least sPvP).Yeah I think everyone agrees on this.

[Xstein.2187]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:

@"Takashiro.8701" said:If we're talking about replacing a shatter, why Diversion/Distortion and not Cry of Frustration? Since thats the condi shatter and Chrono is the power spec anyway with Mirage being the condi one? Both Diversion and Distortion are a vital part of all Mesmer Specs, having their respective use on all of them but F2 on Chrono is a bit more "just a bonus shatter" if F1 is on CD. If we're wanting to replace any shatters that should be the one imo.

Chrono wasn't designed to be a power spec in the first place either. It wasn't designed to be a damage spec.It was clearly designed with power shatter in mind, which was the reigning mesmer meta at the time. So I disagree.

I think we can both agree for sure that it was designed as a support spec first and foremost.Look at the traits and tell me how many for support? "Chrono wasn't designed to be a power/damage spec" is just plain wrong.

If it was designed as a power shatter spec, then they failed miserably as the main PvP build (after initial bunker chrono was nerfed) was condi chrono. Now, bunker is on top again. Bunker now seems like the current best specialization of chrono in PvP and I would currently agree with it maintaining that type of PvP specialization.However, regardless of this, I don't think this is worth arguing over.

Condi chrono was meta not because of chrono (I mean, it has 0 condi traits) but because core mesmer condi traits were overtuned (and have been nerfed multiple times since).

And what we call "bunker chrono" now is a power damage spec. It uses demolisher, is a sidenode duelist, does no team healing / very little support. It is essentially a phantasm build, which is a power damage spec, certainly not a supportive one.

In the end, I think if any elite spec is designed specifically for both dps and support than it is a bad design, especially when you could split those two into two different specializations. For example, I don't think Tempest should have both the best support build and the best dps build (regardless of weather or not that dps is condi or power). That would just cut down on build or trait line diversity for elementalists.If a single spec was made for one purpose/playstyle/build then there would be no need for being able to select your traits at all. If you look at chrono traits now, there is clearly different intended playstyles between the top row, middle row and botton row of the traitline.

Main thing is I think core mesmer should be useful in the 3 gw2 game modes in some shape or form. By that I mean a pug group could take it without complaining. I don't care what type of useful build type that is. I just think it should be something. I also think you should give up that 'something' to specialize into something else. Right now chrono can out power damage core, it can remove boons better than core (double casting null field), and it can produce more stealth than core, it can likely still out condi dps core, it can bunker better than core, it can burst better than core, and it can support better than core. There is nothing core is better at and there is nothing core is even close to being 'viable' in.

There is at least no type of PvE content in which simply giving core mesmer more access to boon removal and invisibility will make it viable. I don't even think doing so in PvP would make it viable (at least sPvP).Yeah I think everyone agrees on this.

1. Chronomancer support Traits and skills on release: Alls well that ends well, flow of time, improved alacrity, seize the moment, shield, well of eternity, well of action, well of recall. Additionally, a new chrono only buff called alacrity was added with chrono. Neither support nor power traits/skills include: Time splitter, Delayed reactions, time catches up, illusionary reversion, time marches on, well of precognition, and chronophantasma. Power skills and traits include: well of calamity, danger time, and lost time. I'm not saying that there aren't any power traits. I'm just saying the design first and foremost revolved around support. Sure, a healing druid can do a little damage as well. However, I wouldn't call the elite specialized in damage. I do think the devs try to keep stuff open for the players in regard to elite specs. However, there are predominant themes involved. For chrono it was support, and for mirage it was evasion/dueling. That doesn't mean you can't use chrono for other things and it doesn't mean you can't use mirage for other things. I don't really see how you don't think chrono was designed primarily for support. Before HoT, mesmer was considered a support spec. However, mesmer could only provide like 10 sec of quickness every 210 seconds, like 5.76% quickness uptime to 5 people. With the release of chrono, they could provide 100% quickness and alacrity uptime (a new support buff introduced with chrono) to 10 people. Before HoT mesmer had the lowest dps in the game. After HoT, chrono had the lowest dps in the game. It wasn't until some changes down the road after HoT that chrono even became remotely viable for power damage in PvE.

2. Condi wasn't meta before HoT. The reason condi became meta after chrono was because clone uptime using illusionary reversion and chronophantamsa allowed you to chain shatters and many of the old core condi traits like the old cry of pain and maim the disillusioned allowed you to apply condi on every shatter. With power you were still limited to only power damage on mind wrack. So yes, condi did become meta partly because of chrono.

3. For PvP I think the best categories are: roamer, tank, support, and brawler. I think roamer and brawler can then be split into the subcategories of condi and power since they are both damage oriented areas. I could e wrong. However, I think the devs originally wanted chrono to be a support in PvP as well while trying to let players keep their options open. However, they failed at that aspect. I don't think they anticipated bunker chrono based on the mess that ensued. I think chrono can be specialized as a tank now in PvP. However, I don't think they thought to specialize it for power damage in PvE or as a power brawler or roamer in PvP. In PvE I consider categories closer to: healer, support, and dps. Dps can then be split into the subcategories condi and power since it is a damage oriented specialization. I think you need to be specialized for damage in the first place to be specialized in condi or power since power and condi both do damage. Kinda like how rev can have a support specialization with a sub specialization in alacrity. Guardian can have also have a support specialization, only with a sub specialization in quickness instead. However, it is difficult to talk about specializations when PvP and PvE are so vastly different. In the end, all that matters is what the devs think the specializations should be focused on anyway.

Note: Here is another aspect I think we disagree on, which is fine. We can just agree to disagree if you like.I don't care what the devs initially wanted the builds to be specialized in. For all I know the devs wanted mirage to specialize in support and just failed miserably (highly unlikely and not stated in the class description at launch, but neither was power damage on chrono, but you get my point). All I think that matters is what the trait lines are best at now, and what they are best at now (or in the future) is what I would call their specialized areas. That is what I think really matters.

chrono specialization: support PvE and WvW, Tank in PvP unless they can make changes.sub specialization: power

old chrono pvp: roamer, sub: condi

Mirage specialization: roamer in PvP and WvW, dps in PvEsub: condi (at least was for PvP), PvE it still for sure is.

All I am saying is that for core mesmer, I think the easiest implemented specialization in PvE is dps sub: power (sustained).For PvE support is already taken by chrono and condi dps is taken by mirage. That leaves power dps and healing.For PvP and WvW, I don't know.

Addition: Also, its a bit more complicated than this because having both condi dps and power dps in PvE is fairly crucial. However, it doesn't matter that much for weather your support or healer is power or condi because, well, they aren't specialized in damage.

[Curunen.8729]

In terms of tradeoff I wouldn't mind some drastic changes regarding shatter skills, to make each spec truly unique.

Core: shatter focused general purpose as it is currently.

Chrono: shatters changed to create pbaoe effects around the player only, that move with the player (like necro), with durations etc depending on number of clones "shattered". Can range from damage oriented stuff similar to well of calamity to time manipulating fields etc, and CSplit could just be F4.

Mirage: clone health increased, additional clone spawining traits/skills, all shatters replaced with ambush or mirage cloak/mirrors boosting effects that no longer consume clones (shatter traits trigger on ambush attacks instead). Eg F1 could be launch a "super powered" ambush attack that deals huge damage, F4 could be some kind of mirror drop without clone consumption (sorry really tired and can't think up something good right now).

So only core could play normal shatter gameplay (condi or power), chrono would be turned into a purely aoe denial/support/bunker spec, and mirage into a pure mind game duelist with emphasis on clone gameplay and deception (but loses standard shatters). That leaves space for a third elite spec to focus on maybe cc/control and cloneless/illusionless gameplay (absorbing clones to boost players own control potential or something). From a layman perspective I can appreciate it would be an insane amount of work, not sure even if some of it is possible but it would really give some depth of choice to mesmer builds and specs.

[flog.3485]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:[...]

That is not easy because chrono does everything better than core, especially burst.

For me:

• Chrono = Power, (nerfed) Support and Phantasms
• Mirage = Condi, Trickster (Evades) and Clones

Two things baseline could be (made) better at than those two which fits the class:

• Boon removal (heavily underutilzed since launch)
• Stealth

Problem: We already got Shattered Concentration and a "free" Stealth-Shatter (F5) might be too much. I still feel that CS replacing Diversion is the most likely scenario. It's not very exciting and won't make baseline Mesmer better at anything. But it's the easy way out for ANet.

@flog.3485 said:Maybe chrono should just loose the ability to use shatters without having any clone up ?

That would be aweful gameplay-wise. However... they could nerf Shatter-damage by 20% :#

Maybe I should just shut my mouth sometimes. :s

In what way would it be awful to you ? Is it just because you don't like the idea ?I seem to recall you didn't have it baseline before hoT and considering the recent patches, it wouldn't hurt it since they actually buffed the ability for mesmer to get clones, now that you will get the buff from Flow of Time and Seize the Moment even if your clones don't hit the target.Obviously if the devs would ever do it, they would need to take a look at Illusionary Reversion so that you wouldn't be shoehorned into dueling evasion.

Before hot everyone played IP for this exact reason.

And that is why it was bad move and pure power creep to make it baseline.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"Curunen.8729" said:In terms of tradeoff I wouldn't mind some drastic changes regarding shatter skills, to make each spec truly unique.

Core: shatter focused general purpose as it is currently.

Chrono: shatters changed to create pbaoe effects around the player only, that move with the player (like necro), with durations etc depending on number of clones "shattered". Can range from damage oriented stuff similar to well of calamity to time manipulating fields etc, and CSplit could just be F4.

Mirage: clone health increased, additional clone spawining traits/skills, all shatters replaced with ambush or mirage cloak/mirrors boosting effects that no longer consume clones (shatter traits trigger on ambush attacks instead). Eg F1 could be launch a "super powered" ambush attack that deals huge damage, F4 could be some kind of mirror drop without clone consumption (sorry really tired and can't think up something good right now).

So only core could play normal shatter gameplay (condi or power), chrono would be turned into a purely aoe denial/support/bunker spec, and mirage into a pure mind game duelist with emphasis on clone gameplay and deception (but loses standard shatters). That leaves space for a third elite spec to focus on maybe cc/control and cloneless/illusionless gameplay (absorbing clones to boost players own control potential or something). From a layman perspective I can appreciate it would be an insane amount of work, not sure even if some of it is possible but it would really give some depth of choice to mesmer builds and specs.

I would like that but knowing ANet they will take some of the awful suggestions here such as remove one of the shatters and call it a day.

[Quadox.7834]

@flog.3485 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:[...]

That is not easy because chrono does everything better than core, especially burst.

For me:

• Chrono = Power, (nerfed) Support and Phantasms
• Mirage = Condi, Trickster (Evades) and Clones

Two things baseline could be (made) better at than those two which fits the class:

• Boon removal (heavily underutilzed since launch)
• Stealth

Problem: We already got Shattered Concentration and a "free" Stealth-Shatter (F5) might be too much. I still feel that CS replacing Diversion is the most likely scenario. It's not very exciting and won't make baseline Mesmer better at anything. But it's the easy way out for ANet.

@flog.3485 said:Maybe chrono should just loose the ability to use shatters without having any clone up ?

That would be aweful gameplay-wise. However... they could nerf Shatter-damage by 20% :#

Maybe I should just shut my mouth sometimes. :s

In what way would it be awful to you ? Is it just because you don't like the idea ?I seem to recall you didn't have it baseline before hoT and considering the recent patches, it wouldn't hurt it since they actually buffed the ability for mesmer to get clones, now that you will get the buff from Flow of Time and Seize the Moment even if your clones don't hit the target.Obviously if the devs would ever do it, they would need to take a look at Illusionary Reversion so that you wouldn't be shoehorned into dueling evasion.

Before hot everyone played IP for this exact reason.

And that is why it was bad move and pure power creep to make it baseline.

You coule argue that. I think it was one of the few good changes in that patch but to each their own.

[Quadox.7834]

@"Curunen.8729" said:In terms of tradeoff I wouldn't mind some drastic changes regarding shatter skills, to make each spec truly unique.

Core: shatter focused general purpose as it is currently.

Chrono: shatters changed to create pbaoe effects around the player only, that move with the player (like necro), with durations etc depending on number of clones "shattered". Can range from damage oriented stuff similar to well of calamity to time manipulating fields etc, and CSplit could just be F4.

Mirage: clone health increased, additional clone spawining traits/skills, all shatters replaced with ambush or mirage cloak/mirrors boosting effects that no longer consume clones (shatter traits trigger on ambush attacks instead). Eg F1 could be launch a "super powered" ambush attack that deals huge damage, F4 could be some kind of mirror drop without clone consumption (sorry really tired and can't think up something good right now).

So only core could play normal shatter gameplay (condi or power), chrono would be turned into a purely aoe denial/support/bunker spec, and mirage into a pure mind game duelist with emphasis on clone gameplay and deception (but loses standard shatters). That leaves space for a third elite spec to focus on maybe cc/control and cloneless/illusionless gameplay (absorbing clones to boost players own control potential or something). From a layman perspective I can appreciate it would be an insane amount of work, not sure even if some of it is possible but it would really give some depth of choice to mesmer builds and specs.

Well sure but how big are the chances that something like this would happen? I would say pretty much nonexistant.

[Curunen.8729]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:In terms of tradeoff I wouldn't mind some drastic changes regarding shatter skills, to make each spec truly unique.

Core: shatter focused general purpose as it is currently.

Chrono: shatters changed to create pbaoe effects around the player only, that move with the player (like necro), with durations etc depending on number of clones "shattered". Can range from damage oriented stuff similar to well of calamity to time manipulating fields etc, and CSplit could just be F4.

Mirage: clone health increased, additional clone spawining traits/skills, all shatters replaced with ambush or mirage cloak/mirrors boosting effects that no longer consume clones (shatter traits trigger on ambush attacks instead). Eg F1 could be launch a "super powered" ambush attack that deals huge damage, F4 could be some kind of mirror drop without clone consumption (sorry really tired and can't think up something good right now).

So only core could play normal shatter gameplay (condi or power), chrono would be turned into a purely aoe denial/support/bunker spec, and mirage into a pure mind game duelist with emphasis on clone gameplay and deception (but loses standard shatters). That leaves space for a third elite spec to focus on maybe cc/control and cloneless/illusionless gameplay (absorbing clones to boost players own control potential or something). From a layman perspective I can appreciate it would be an insane amount of work, not sure even if some of it is possible but it would really give some depth of choice to mesmer builds and specs.

Well sure but how big are the chances that something like this would happen? I would say pretty much nonexistant.

While such a huge redesign may not be likely sure, doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss things they could strive for - I can see changes similar to what they did with Druid's pet - eg for mirage clones get more health/toughness etc, but shatters lose x% damage or something.

Overall I believe Core should be the best at pure shatter based gameplay (condi or power), and both Chrono and Mirage should be differentiated further from that.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:if you are talking about making trade offs why are you giving new skills to core ????

Here is how you do it.

• No new f5 skill for core
• Chrono looses 4f in exchange for f5 (the time splitter skill gets a cd reduction as a result)
• Mirage keeps f4 from core but now has a lower clone cap of 1 or 2 clones with the clone/ clones having increased hp or

If anything, Mirage should get a malus on Phantasm-damage.Mirage is a clone spec so reducing the number would be weird.Maybe you could be right here.To be honest I always felt that ambush attacks should happen for mirage clones by default (but they don't evade attacks when you do) infinite horizon should probably not exists in exchange for something else.

@viquing.8254 said:

Never forget that core was cut from a third of his gameplay while they removed on death traits, that were used even with no blackwater in the so skilled-lol-shatter-bursts builds.

And I'd never want to see them return, seriously... However, it is indeed problematic that Mirage checks so many boxes on what baseline Mesmer should be good at to begin with. Chrono is just a balancing nightmare because of CS. The only way I could see baseline Mesmer becoming better at power burst is if Chrono had some damage penalties (being it by default or when using CS).

I wonder if the reason core Mesmer does not check the boxes that mirage does is because at the time they didnt have the tools and ideas to make mirage do what it does today or they were worried that it would be too strong in relation to other other professions. I mean if you think back to how the game use to be with core professions. If mirage exsisted back then ohh boy.... its possible they could have just limited mesmer down on purpose to keep it in check.

[Xaylin.1860]

@flog.3485 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:[...]

That is not easy because chrono does everything better than core, especially burst.

For me:

• Chrono = Power, (nerfed) Support and Phantasms
• Mirage = Condi, Trickster (Evades) and Clones

Two things baseline could be (made) better at than those two which fits the class:

• Boon removal (heavily underutilzed since launch)
• Stealth

Problem: We already got Shattered Concentration and a "free" Stealth-Shatter (F5) might be too much. I still feel that CS replacing Diversion is the most likely scenario. It's not very exciting and won't make baseline Mesmer better at anything. But it's the easy way out for ANet.

@flog.3485 said:Maybe chrono should just loose the ability to use shatters without having any clone up ?

That would be aweful gameplay-wise. However... they could nerf Shatter-damage by 20% :#

Maybe I should just shut my mouth sometimes. :s

In what way would it be awful to you ? Is it just because you don't like the idea ?I seem to recall you didn't have it baseline before hoT and considering the recent patches, it wouldn't hurt it since they actually buffed the ability for mesmer to get clones, now that you will get the buff from Flow of Time and Seize the Moment even if your clones don't hit the target.Obviously if the devs would ever do it, they would need to take a look at Illusionary Reversion so that you wouldn't be shoehorned into dueling evasion.

Before hot everyone played IP for this exact reason.

And that is why it was bad move and pure power creep to make it baseline.

Power creep sure. But needed anyway because the class mechanic was severely crippled in too many scenarios without it.

[flog.3485]

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:[...]

That is not easy because chrono does everything better than core, especially burst.

For me:

• Chrono = Power, (nerfed) Support and Phantasms
• Mirage = Condi, Trickster (Evades) and Clones

Two things baseline could be (made) better at than those two which fits the class:

• Boon removal (heavily underutilzed since launch)
• Stealth

Problem: We already got Shattered Concentration and a "free" Stealth-Shatter (F5) might be too much. I still feel that CS replacing Diversion is the most likely scenario. It's not very exciting and won't make baseline Mesmer better at anything. But it's the easy way out for ANet.

@flog.3485 said:Maybe chrono should just loose the ability to use shatters without having any clone up ?

That would be aweful gameplay-wise. However... they could nerf Shatter-damage by 20% :#

Maybe I should just shut my mouth sometimes. :s

In what way would it be awful to you ? Is it just because you don't like the idea ?I seem to recall you didn't have it baseline before hoT and considering the recent patches, it wouldn't hurt it since they actually buffed the ability for mesmer to get clones, now that you will get the buff from Flow of Time and Seize the Moment even if your clones don't hit the target.Obviously if the devs would ever do it, they would need to take a look at Illusionary Reversion so that you wouldn't be shoehorned into dueling evasion.

Before hot everyone played IP for this exact reason.

And that is why it was bad move and pure power creep to make it baseline.

Power creep sure. But needed anyway because the class mechanic was severely crippled in too many scenarios without it.

True, but in some way I wish that the game wasn't power creeped to the point where "shatter with no clone" became mandatory, even with the chrono gameplay. But anyhow, even at core level, you wouldn't even be able to do much without dueling evasion and illusionary persona (PVP wise).

[Quadox.7834]

@flog.3485 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:[...]

That is not easy because chrono does everything better than core, especially burst.

For me:

• Chrono = Power, (nerfed) Support and Phantasms
• Mirage = Condi, Trickster (Evades) and Clones

Two things baseline could be (made) better at than those two which fits the class:

• Boon removal (heavily underutilzed since launch)
• Stealth

Problem: We already got Shattered Concentration and a "free" Stealth-Shatter (F5) might be too much. I still feel that CS replacing Diversion is the most likely scenario. It's not very exciting and won't make baseline Mesmer better at anything. But it's the easy way out for ANet.

@flog.3485 said:Maybe chrono should just loose the ability to use shatters without having any clone up ?

That would be aweful gameplay-wise. However... they could nerf Shatter-damage by 20% :#

Maybe I should just shut my mouth sometimes. :s

In what way would it be awful to you ? Is it just because you don't like the idea ?I seem to recall you didn't have it baseline before hoT and considering the recent patches, it wouldn't hurt it since they actually buffed the ability for mesmer to get clones, now that you will get the buff from Flow of Time and Seize the Moment even if your clones don't hit the target.Obviously if the devs would ever do it, they would need to take a look at Illusionary Reversion so that you wouldn't be shoehorned into dueling evasion.

Before hot everyone played IP for this exact reason.

And that is why it was bad move and pure power creep to make it baseline.

Power creep sure. But needed anyway because the class mechanic was severely crippled in too many scenarios without it.

True, but in some way I wish that the game wasn't power creeped to the point where "shatter with no clone" became mandatory, even with the chrono gameplay. But anyhow, even at core level, you wouldn't even be able to do much without dueling evasion and illusionary persona (PVP wise).

IIRC that trait was mandatory even in 2012.

[viquing.8254]

@Xaylin.1860 said:@viquing.8254 said:

Never forget that core was cut from a third of his gameplay while they removed on death traits, that were used even with no blackwater in the so skilled-lol-shatter-bursts builds.And I'd never want to see them return, seriously...Why ? Can't find a good reason apart the bad synergy with 2 traits.Was it op ? 240 radius, only damage where 2/3 bleeds stacks and 1 confusion.Was it passive ? clone never auto-pop with no actions.It was never on death traits who killed people but condi by clones auto during the forum gameplay destruction wave.

@Xaylin.1860 said:Mirage checks so many boxes on what baseline Mesmer should be good at to begin with. Chrono is just a balancing nightmare because of CS. The only way I could see baseline Mesmer becoming better at power burst is if Chrono had some damage penalties (being it by default or when using CS).The problem I see with mirage and what I'm little frustrated about is that they give back a clone based spec after removed clone based gameplay on core.I mean core should never be left blowing with only 2/3 of his original gameplay.

@Quadox.7834 said:Look at the middle line of chrono, you will see superspeed on shatter, illusionary reversion and quicknesd on shatter. On the minors there is movement speed. These traits were made specifically to improve power shatter and to alleviate some of the complaints about it (like the lack of swiftness/movespeed, and the fact that clones walk so slowly so they never catch up with their targets). The bottom like on chrono (with traits such as well heal) is more support/teamfight-focused. It is very clearly made with shatter in mind.Every mesmer builds past 2015 patch were oriented shatter and we have mono-shatter gameplay during all of HoT.It's independant that chrono is teamfight oriented with wells and so on. I didn't have the motivation to search it but I'm pretty sure a dev said something in this direction when they released it.

@flog.3485 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Before hot everyone played IP for this exact reason.

And that is why it was bad move and pure power creep to make it baseline.Not everyone please. Mainly thoses who legitimized dev to make mesmers monogameplay and who didn't play anymore for most of them...And yeah it was pure powercreep.

[Quadox.7834]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Xaylin.1860 said:@viquing.8254 said:

Never forget that core was cut from a third of his gameplay while they removed on death traits, that were used even with no blackwater in the so skilled-lol-shatter-bursts builds.And I'd never want to see them return, seriously...Why ? Can't find a good reason apart the bad synergy with 2 traits.Was it op ? 240 radius, only damage where 2/3 bleeds stacks and 1 confusion.Was it passive ? clone never auto-pop with no actions.It was never on death traits who killed people but condi by clones auto during the forum gameplay destruction wave.

@Xaylin.1860 said:Mirage checks so many boxes on what baseline Mesmer should be good at to begin with. Chrono is just a balancing nightmare because of CS. The only way I could see baseline Mesmer becoming better at power burst is if Chrono had some damage penalties (being it by default or when using CS).The problem I see with mirage and what I'm little frustrated about is that they give back a clone based spec after removed clone based gameplay on core.I mean core should never be left blowing with only 2/3 of his original gameplay.

@Quadox.7834 said:Look at the middle line of chrono, you will see superspeed on shatter, illusionary reversion and quicknesd on shatter. On the minors there is movement speed. These traits were made specifically to improve power shatter and to alleviate some of the complaints about it (like the lack of swiftness/movespeed, and the fact that clones walk so slowly so they never catch up with their targets). The bottom like on chrono (with traits such as well heal) is more support/teamfight-focused. It is very clearly made with shatter in mind.Every mesmer builds past 2015 patch were oriented shatter and we have mono-shatter gameplay during all of HoT.It's independant that chrono is teamfight oriented with wells and so on. I didn't have the motivation to search it but I'm pretty sure a dev said something in this direction when they released it.Of course every mesmer build use and rely on shatters, it is literally mesmer's profession skill. Are you also asking to play engi without ever using toolbelt skills, thief without using steal, and so on?

@flog.3485 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Before hot everyone played IP for this exact reason.

And that is why it was bad move and pure power creep to make it baseline.Not everyone please. Mainly thoses who legitimized dev to make mesmers monogameplay and who didn't play anymore for most of them...And yeah it was pure powercreep.