The reasons Berserker fails

[Obtena.7952]

I'm not sure that's a accurate hypothesis ... I think Anet did a good job explaining why these specific changes were made so if it's just a matter of people not understanding, it's not because Anet didn't tell us.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm not ignoring that it's stronger in berserker mode. IMO, that's not a reason to make non-berserker mode deficient.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

So are you saying that berserker spec in berk mode is worse or barely equal to base warrior?

I didn't say either way and I don't see the need to either. I've made my points and they are valid.

ok.Pretty sure you keep calling berserker a deficient warrior without actually acknowledging that it doesn't have and isn't supposed to have the same playstyle as core warrior.

No one claimed it's supposed to have the same playstyle as core warrior and that's got nothing to do with why it's deficient ... at least IMO. Where are you getting these things from?

Again, that's a thing you didn't directly type out (maybe), but can be clearly seen based on what you complain about.

And while we're at "where are you getting these things from?", I still didn't manage to understand why you thought "In fact, I stated I don't have a problem with berserker mode." in your previous post was in any way relevant to what I wrote before that. It's like you're trying to tell me I'm correct?

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm not ignoring that it's stronger in berserker mode. IMO, that's not a reason to make non-berserker mode deficient.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

So are you saying that berserker spec in berk mode is worse or barely equal to base warrior?

I didn't say either way and I don't see the need to either. I've made my points and they are valid.

ok.Pretty sure you keep calling berserker a deficient warrior without actually acknowledging that it doesn't have and isn't supposed to have the same playstyle as core warrior.

No one claimed it's supposed to have the same playstyle as core warrior and that's got nothing to do with why it's deficient ... at least IMO. Where are you getting these things from?

Again, that's a thing you didn't directly type out (maybe), but can be clearly seen based on what you complain about.

I guess that's just how you decided to interpret it. My complaint has nothing to do with the playstyle of core warrior.

And while we're at "where are you getting these things from?", I still didn't manage to understand why you thought "In fact, I stated I don't have a problem with berserker mode." in your previous post was in any way relevant to what I wrote before that. It's like you're trying to tell me I'm correct?

I can't help you if you didn't understand what my meaning is or follow the conversation ... the complaint is clear and right up front post #1 and no where in that complaint did I say I had a problem with the time a player is in berserker mode. This is the problem when you try to tell me what I mean, then turn around and say you don't understand what you are trying to tell me what I mean. It's like you are having a discussion with yourself off in some weird place I never went.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm not ignoring that it's stronger in berserker mode. IMO, that's not a reason to make non-berserker mode deficient.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

So are you saying that berserker spec in berk mode is worse or barely equal to base warrior?

I didn't say either way and I don't see the need to either. I've made my points and they are valid.

ok.Pretty sure you keep calling berserker a deficient warrior without actually acknowledging that it doesn't have and isn't supposed to have the same playstyle as core warrior.

No one claimed it's supposed to have the same playstyle as core warrior and that's got nothing to do with why it's deficient ... at least IMO. Where are you getting these things from?

Again, that's a thing you didn't directly type out (maybe), but can be clearly seen based on what you complain about.

I guess that's just how you decided to interpret it. My complaint has nothing to do with the playstyle of core warrior.

And while we're at "where are you getting these things from?", I still didn't manage to understand why you thought "In fact, I stated I don't have a problem with berserker mode." in your previous post was in any way relevant to what I wrote before that. It's like you're trying to tell me I'm correct?

I can't help you if you didn't understand what my meaning is or follow the conversation ... the complaint is clear and right up front post #1 and no where in that complaint did I say I had a problem with the time a player is in berserker mode. This is the problem when you try to tell me what I mean, then turn around and say you don't understand what you are trying to tell me what I mean. It's like you are having a discussion with yourself off in some weird place I never went.

But you do have a problem with berk out of berk mode, which is directly connected to berk mode existing. One is relevant to the other, just because you didn't strictly type something out doesn't magically mean it doesn't matter or isn't a part of a complaint. I understand it's super convenient for you to claim that, but it's just false. You do you though.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't see where you are going with this. Refer to post #1 if you want to continue this discussion.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see where you are going with this. Refer to post #1 if you want to continue this discussion.

I can't help you if you didn't understand what my meaning is or follow the conversation ...

[Obtena.7952]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see where you are going with this. Refer to post #1 if you want to continue this discussion.

I can't help you if you didn't understand what my meaning is or follow the conversation ...

I don't need you to help me out .. I made my points ... I understand them just fine. If you want to argue pedantic points with yourself, feel free, but don't pretend I'm leading you down that path. If you are talking about concepts you invented you think I'm saying, then the conversation ends there.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't see where you are going with this. Refer to post #1 if you want to continue this discussion.

I can't help you if you didn't understand what my meaning is or follow the conversation ...

I don't need you to help me out .. I made my points ... I understand them just fine. If you want to argue pedantic points with yourself, feel free, but don't pretend I'm leading you down that path. If you are talking about concepts you invented you think I'm saying, then the conversation ends there.

I mean I didn't need you to help me either, but somehow that was an acceptable thing to write when you did it? :DI commented on what you said and you dismiss everything that relates to your points just because you "didn't write [specifically] that". If you don't understand how parts of a build/design/spec/class can correlate to each other as a whole then you're missing quite a bit in your complaints. I didn't "invent" anything here.

[Obtena.7952]

Cool ... I'm just going to take it back to the three points I made then. I won't be addressing pedantic arguments you keep bringing to the table based on what you perceive that I said or didn't say at all. You want to talk about performance ... my problems with the spec are based on design.

[Arzurag.7506]

@Mesket.5728 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

imagine you lose Adrenaline when you get hitThat would be a pretty suck kitten situation on berserker if you ask me !!

Maybe ... but what does that have to do with anything? Trying to make more irrelevant comparisons between Necro and Warrior again?

Listen, the comparison game is irrelevant ... because Warriors are not necros. If you have a problem with necro mechanics, what are you complaining about it here for?

the point is their is no problem in the design and elite mechaniccore necro and reaper and the new berserker are the most balance build currently in the game because they have a huge offensive skills for a set duration of time and if you fail to defeat your enemy then you go kit mode (LOS ,dodge , no port spots)so in the end it is L2P issueall what you need is to balance your offensive and defensive skills do you know why dev did that because they dont want to create a brain dead DPS builds

Yes, there is a terrible problem with design and you fail to acknowledge it because you are probably just seeing from a PVP perspective and that is just a small part of the game. If you are roaming maps, doing events, killing world bosses, following meta events, whatever you want to do that is not pvp you are fighting constantly and with many small breaks from mob to mob and this class just became ridiculously boring to play because you are just 2/3 of your character repeatedly for 12 seconds. Rage skills adds a few seconds and it is not enough and you shouldn't be forced to take any particular thing just to make it work; this is not a MOBA, metabuilds are fine and sometimes fun but it is not what define how to play. The class should consistently work or be fixed. I don't get why some have such a hard time figuring this simple thing. It's not a cooldown on a skill; its a cooldown on a whole 1/3 of your character. Don't compare it to Necros who can turn with 10% of their bar and doesn't decay over time and it also works as a second HP. Necros use their mechanic much more often and it serves many other purposes than a simple buff to stats. And for Rangers or Engies, none of them gets their class mechanic removed while not in their special mod.

Reaper-shroud´s lifeforce does decay over time and if you go into reaper-shroud with 10% then you only have merely seconds to use maybe one ability.reaper and berserker have to play around a weaker state, so that they can utilize a stronger form when needed, that has nothing to do with only playing 1/3 of a character most of the time because that´s the whole point of both specs.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:Cool ... I'm just going to take it back to the three points I made then. I won't be addressing pedantic arguments you keep bringing to the table based on what you perceive that I said or didn't say at all. You want to talk about performance ... my problems with the spec are based on design.

No, I'm not talking about performance, I'm talking about design and why it's fine.

[Obtena.7952]

That's perfect. Then we can both agree that your attempt to drag this conversation into a discussion about performance was a poor attempt at derailing it. Thanks.

Still, if you are being honest, I would love to hear from a design POV why you think the deficiencies I have presented are not a problem. Maybe you can finally address the original points that have been presented.

[Rylai.3158]

I think I understand the direction they were going for. The idea is to have berserker be its own DPS thing, while core can be a banner slave. The issue with tweaking is that if they make base berserker mode too good, then people would just move away from core BS and just run Berserker BS.

The way to fix it, or what they tried is that you give up tactics for a DPS tree as berserker, then also need to run rage skills to extend berserk, something that banner slave cannot do as it has 2/3 locked utilities.

The problem: Rage skills are just really bad? A possible solution would be in my modest opinion to change the utlities, just as an example:

Wild blow: This spell feels like it has no purpose, there's already a lot of CC going around, and you'd likely run headbutt, why not remove the 100% crit, make it give a bit of adrenaline, or more extend duration on Berserk

Sundering leap: Absolutely useless and unused, but it has opportunity to be a great ability, just as an idea..Remove the debuff, give it duration increase(More than it has?) or adrenaline, and make it create a pulsating AOE field, or just straight up buff its damage. Shattering leap: Leap and smash the ground, causing rock spikes to errupt(Shattering blow already creates rocks?), pulsating aoe or straight up damage.

Outrage: This ability feels like wild blow, but even more useless, its like shake it off, but the idea is shorter CD and extend berserk..But in any steady pve environment you already have so much stability, a total overhaul, or make it increase duration regardless of whether it breaks a stun?

The idea would be to have berserker dps not run tactics and have to use 3/3 utlities for DPS, which would make it impossible for berserker to be used as a banner slave? Introduce more damage to non tactic trees, through minor traits or otherwise, basically make it so that core berserker can never be used as a "Higher damage banner slave", and go from there. No tactics means no EA. Its problem is that with an awkward duration it just deals poor damage compared to the top small/big target DPS, so why ever bring it?Not by much mind, I saw some 30-32k benchmarks, but the rotation looked awful and on golem. Like the video posted above.

[Rylai.3158]

Sorry, meant to buff the damage of Wild blow instead of the 100% crit, and also probably not be used as CC.

[Sobx.1758]

@Obtena.7952 said:That's perfect. Then we can both agree that your attempt to drag this conversation into a discussion about performance was a poor attempt at derailing it. Thanks.

Still, if you are being honest, I would love to hear from a design POV why you think the deficiencies I have presented are not a problem. Maybe you can finally address the original points that have been presented.

Wasn't about performance, you're just poorly deflecting whenever you know you're wrong. I already told you why it's ok from the design/gameplay perspective, but you choose to pretend I'm talking about performance :sleeping:

[Obtena.7952]

@"Rylai.3158" said:I think I understand the direction they were going for. The idea is to have berserker be its own DPS thing, while core can be a banner slave. The issue with tweaking is that if they make base berserker mode too good, then people would just move away from core BS and just run Berserker BS.

The way to fix it, or what they tried is that you give up tactics for a DPS tree as berserker, then also need to run rage skills to extend berserk, something that banner slave cannot do as it has 2/3 locked utilities.

The problem: Rage skills are just really bad? A possible solution would be in my modest opinion to change the utlities, just as an example:'Wild blow: This spell feels like it has no purpose, there's already a lot of CC going around, and you'd likely run headbutt, why not remove the 100% crit, make it give a bit of adrenaline, or more extend duration on Berserk

Sundering leap: Absolutely useless and unused, but it has opportunity to be a great ability, just as an idea..Remove the debuff, give it duration increase(More than it has?) or adrenaline, and make it create a pulsating AOE field, or just straight up buff its damage. Shattering leap: Leap and smash the ground, causing rock spikes to errupt(Shattering blow already creates rocks?), pulsating aoe or straight up damage.

Outrage: This ability feels like wild blow, but even more useless, its like shake it off, but the idea is shorter CD and extend berserk..But in any steady pve environment you already have so much stability, a total overhaul, or make it increase duration regardless of whether it breaks a stun?

The idea would be to have berserker dps not run tactics and have to use 3/3 utlities for DPS, which would make it impossible for berserker to be used as a banner slave? Introduce more damage to non tactic trees, through minor traits or otherwise, basically make it so that core berserker can never be used as a "Higher damage banner slave", and go from there. No tactics means no EA. Its problem is that with an awkward duration it just deals poor damage compared to the top small/big target DPS, so why ever bring it?Not by much mind, I saw some 30-32k benchmarks, but the rotation looked awful and on golem. Like the video posted above.

I think the rage skills themselves are fine, especially if Anet is introducing a mechanic to affect berserker mode duration. Changing them can't fix what's wrong with berserker really.

[MrForz.1953]

Ideally, I'd just have liked the Berserk mode being a passive of some sort; automatically activate it after a number of consecutive hits and then hitting or taking damage to maintain it. Almost much like the good old d&d Barbarian.

[Obtena.7952]

I had thought of that before, but the main objection was that there was too much things proc'ed on entering berserker mode and people wanted to control that. I didn't really get that argument before because F2 was a mode and it only proced DPS ... but now I can see why it would be undesirable. You are going to want to time your F1 beserker burst in competitive modes.

[zwirek.7804]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Here are the problems I see with the current Berserker espec. It's concept is clear; a DPS heavy, long duration burst mode for warrior.

1. You are losing traits in a practical sense when you are not in berserker mode. Every minor trait is only of benefit to berserker mode. In my opinion, this is an unacceptable situation because for the trait system to work properly (i.e., give players meaningful choices), all the lines need to have some equivalence. Berserker falls WAY short of that (to be clear, it always did, but it's worse now).
2. The risk/reward profile of this espec is out to lunch. In core warrior and to some extent SB, I have 3 fully effective traitlines and a burst at 3 levels at my disposal while maximizing at 30 adrenaline. In berserker, I'm effectively missing all minor traits while non-berserker and can't burst until at maximum adrenaline FOR THE SAME maximum 30 adrenaline cost as non-berserker specs. Even worse, if you miss or are interrupted while bursting, you continue to miss out berserker mode, your minor traits and you lose your 30 adrenaline. I believe this leads to a severe inbalance in the berserker spec with respect to the other warrior specs
3. The flavour of the mode is reduced to a single attack. Conceptually I can see why it makes more sense that an attack initiates berserker but in practice, if I'm going to spend 30 adrenaline on a high risk attack, there should always be some kind of meaningful result to the player. "SORRY, TRY AGAIN" is underwhelming. no value gameplay and considering the cost and inbalance in risk/reward for the espec, unacceptable.

TLDR: Berserker traitline only partially effective, Berserker mechanics lack equivalence to warrior/SB, All-or-Nothing Berserker mode trigger.

jsut today i read through last 7 months patch notes to get full view of the game state and ppl complaining on every class forum and you know what ? you just pointed exactly waht a net planned to dothey pointed this with necro as example necro by going with soul reaping trait line is sacrificing somehting to gain something new they meant pure trade offand as they pointed they want to implement trade offs for every class from now on as only necro was punished by this mechanic the whole timeand you can point that some traits works only in berserker and there is no other synergy outside berserker mode for those traits but hey m8 necro have same problemswith traits and death shroud ( going into shroud = some perks works and you have some effects death shroud ends = no traits no effects till in ds again ) since gw2 release and its like this up to todayso yea they implemented trade off for zerker you dont like it but look sb have own trade off you have f2 skill but can only use up to 2 bars of adrenaline ( i still think sb trade off by losing 1 adrenaline bar is not enough tho ahahah ) and now zerk have own trade off i liek to play warri but i like to play other classes aswell and by doing so i know that for every class master classes was just bonus skills/strengths where necro had to trade something for something ( again reaper example trading off range and possible dmg or def triat line for cleave and melee playstyle reaper offers )and now honestly i like realy like idea about master classes trade off for every class implemented as this will help with build diversity and game balance if implemented right but they need to do it all at once as for now only trade offs i can see are nerco perks now warri perks and now ranger have 20% weaker pet when traited for druida net needs to implement all trade offs at once with 1 big patch cause if they will implement those changes class by class this will increase power creep and gap between calsses AND what is even worse like always it will take ages to implement and probly whole meta will shift again before they will finish and whole change will be for nothing and outdated like everything a net was doing in the past .... so yea idea is great some tweaks here and there qol changes but whats more important implementation for every class in same time and everything will be good

[Obtena.7952]

Yup, Anet implemented trade offs ... that's not my complaint. What necro does is irrelevant to the conversation here ... I guess you missed that in the FIRST time I had to educate someone on that fact in this thread.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Yup, Anet implemented trade offs ... that's not my complaint. What necro does is irrelevant to the conversation here ... I guess you missed that in the FIRST time I had to educate someone on that fact in this thread.

Well it is a long thread at this point. I expect to see a "Why Soulbeast fails" thread soon enough.

[Obtena.7952]

Nothing stops someone from reading the thread and I doubt you will see a SB fail thread ... unless it gets the same treatment Berserker did. Maybe we can hope that SB gets 'fixed' in the same way so it doesn't seem so irregular to see people complain about missing parts of their toolset.

[Sobx.1758]

As well as nothing stops someone from finally understanding that making berserker 'a core warrior with free berk steroid on top of it' would be stupid, literally powercreeping and something that more people would -rightfully- complain about than about current design, which in its core is fine and yet here we are...

[cryorion.9532]

@"Sobx.1758" said:As well as nothing stops someone from finally understanding that making berserker 'a core warrior with free berk steroid on top of it' would be stupid, literally powercreeping and something that more people would -rightfully- complain about than about current design, which in its core is fine and yet here we are...

That is why there are no core bursts and -300 toughness when in berserk to distinguish enough between core and berserker.So why exactly should berserker be also limited by waiting for berserk CD and be useless when not in Berserk? What about adding ways to have better control over berserk, either by freedom of activaing/deactivating berserk, reducing berserk cd with certain skills or being able to upkeep berserk permanently in combat as long as certain skills are used and timed well (and no, I am not talking about taking all rage skills and just spaming them off cooldown)?

I am waiting for next balance patch just to see how is Anet going to continue this trade-off thing, if they gonna reduce powercreep overall by giving other specs significant trade-offs too, then it all makes sense. But for current "standards", berserker is not fine.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:As well as nothing stops someone from finally understanding that making berserker 'a core warrior with free berk steroid on top of it' would be stupid, literally powercreeping and something that more people would -rightfully- complain about than about current design, which in its core is fine and yet here we are...

That is why there are no core bursts and -300 toughness when in berserk to distinguish enough between core and berserker.So why exactly should berserker be also limited by waiting for berserk CD and be useless when not in Berserk? What about adding ways to have better control over berserk, either by freedom of activaing/deactivating berserk, reducing berserk cd with certain skills or being able to upkeep berserk permanently in combat as long as certain skills are used and timed well (and no, I am not talking about taking all rage skills and just spaming them off cooldown)?

I am waiting for next balance patch just to see how is Anet going to continue this trade-off thing, if they gonna reduce powercreep overall by giving other specs significant trade-offs too, then it all makes sense. But for current "standards", berserker is not fine.

Well for Rev they gave it a limp skill to take away as a trade off, and Reaper Shroud is viewed as its own trade off. I get the the Virtue differences in the Guardian specs are trade offs because they are no longer instant cast. It feels that Berserker got TOO much of a trade off.

I bet SB loses a pet. I am not too sure what will happen with Ele, Mesmer, and Engi though. Ele is so in tune with its attunements that I can't see how they can implement a trade off other than giving core Ele a F5 skill. I guess Mesmer might loose Distortion. Engi might get a new F5 skill to 'take' away as well, or get a few tool kit skills taken away.

But then none of that measures up to the drawback they gave Berserker.