The reasons Berserker fails

[Sobx.1758]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:As well as nothing stops someone from finally understanding that making berserker 'a core warrior with free berk steroid on top of it' would be stupid, literally powercreeping and something that more people would -rightfully- complain about than about current design, which in its core is fine and yet here we are...

That is why there are no core bursts and -300 toughness when in berserk to distinguish enough between core and berserker.

-300 toughness, but +power/condi?And yes, there are no burst skills while in berk, because they are replaced by a stronger versions of them, not sure what's your point here. This is exactly what I was writing about, making it a core warrior with free berk beef would be stupid from the design (cough cough) standpoint.

So why exactly should berserker be also limited by waiting for berserk CD and be useless when not in Berserk?

Warrior isn't useless/helpless just because he's missing burst skills out of berk mode.

I am waiting for next balance patch just to see how is Anet going to continue this trade-off thing, if they gonna reduce powercreep overall by giving other specs significant trade-offs too, then it all makes sense.

Me too.

But for current "standards", berserker is not fine.

What's not fine is trying to justify powercreep specs because some already snuck into the game. That's not the direction it should be going and because of that people's complaints with that justification are simply wrong (in other words: they're complaining about wrong class/es).From the design standpoint, of course.

[cryorion.9532]

@"Sobx.1758" said:-300 toughness, but +power/condi?And yes, there are no burst skills while in berk, because they are replaced by a stronger versions of them, not sure what's your point here. This is exactly what I was writing about, making it a core warrior with free berk beef would be stupid from the design (cough cough) standpoint.

The point was, that you are regularly locked from using elite spec mechanics COMPLETELY for 15 seconds no matter what.Imagine if reaper couldn't leave shroud at will and had to wait till it gets depleted instead and then wait another 15 seconds till it is ready again. And no HP bonus of course, but instead 300 power/condi damage bonus. Basically that is Berserker.Or maybe even better, imagine if soulbeast and its Beastmode had duration (15-20 seconds) instead of being permanent and no control over leaving Beastmode. No pet skills outside of Beastmode. When it expires, they have to wait another 15 seconds to do it again. They already get bonus stats from merging.Now tell me how fine would be those specs and how much fun the mechanics would be compared to what it is now, being locked out from profession mechanics completely for 15 seconds regularly. Or berserker is suddenly very different and it is "fine" for berserker being locked out from profession mechanics like this?

"Warrior isn't useless/helpless just because he's missing burst skills out of berk mode."Basically what this thread is about. All those sweet traits that provide nice bonuses to Berserk... no berserk-no nice bonuses. It is not just core bursts, but also traits like 20% damage bonus, 300 power and condi damage, 14% crit damage, etc...

[Sobx.1758]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:-300 toughness, but +power/condi?And yes, there are no burst skills while in berk, because they are replaced by a stronger versions of them, not sure what's your point here. This is exactly what I was writing about, making it a core warrior with free berk beef would be stupid from the design (cough cough) standpoint.

The point was, that you are regularly locked from using elite spec mechanics COMPLETELY for 15 seconds no matter what.

And there's a very obvious reason for that that not only I've names many times, it's also literally in the post you're answering to.

Imagine if reaper

Talk to obtena about class comparisons as an argument.

"Warrior isn't useless/helpless just because he's missing burst skills out of berk mode."All those sweet traits that provide nice bonuses to Berserk... no berserk-no nice bonuses. It is not just core bursts, but also traits like 20% damage bonus, 300 power and condi damage, 14% crit damage, etc...

Yup, that's the point and I already explained why it makes sense. Am I supposed to keep repeating the same thing in hopes you'll read and understand it?

[Euthymias.7984]

It is more than a little strange that Berserker is so polarized into only having its effects under the mode itself and being crippled outside of it.Personally, I'd like to see Berserker have an F2 on its own that functions as a "Cool Down" effect for the mode. Something like:

Flourish (Berserk): Ends Berserk Mode and consume all Adrenaline. For every unit of Adrenaline consumed. Gain 1 second of increased Damage/Condition damage (5%). Effect ends once Berserk Mode is activated.In a way, it would bring "Always Angry" back to have a bonus outside of Berserk, while also granting a means to end it early instead of wasting the remaining time when its not used anymore. Maybe also make the current "Burst of Aggression" work when ending Berserk as well if needed, but generally speaking, having an "out" of the form instead of waiting for it to burn out + deal with cooldown seems more than fair.

[cryorion.9532]

@"Sobx.1758"I am fine for bursts to remain in berserk only. What is not fine is being stuck 15 seconds in the worst possible warrior state. You may call it "trade-off" (there seem to be too many of trade-offs already...) or "playstyle" but I call it unfun and incomplete design. Personally, I prefer a way to better manage berserk mode, its cd, etc over buffing out-of-berserk state.Also, don't ignore "imagine" part, because that is essentially the problem with berserker (to see how it would reflect on other specs with similar treatment - removed parts of core profession mechanics and instead whole spec mechanics added into one skill with one cooldown).

[Lighter.5631]

everything was fine when arc divider wasnt nerfed and all they had to do was buff all other zerker bursts..but now everything not fine giving the damage zerker has now lol

[Sobx.1758]

@cryorion.9532 said:@"Sobx.1758"I am fine for bursts to remain in berserk only. What is not fine is being stuck 15 seconds in the worst possible warrior state. You may call it "trade-off" (there seem to be too many of trade-offs already...) or "playstyle" but I call it unfun and incomplete design. Personally, I prefer a way to better manage berserk mode, its cd, etc over buffing out-of-berserk state.Also, don't ignore "imagine" part, because that is essentially the problem with berserker (to see how it would reflect on other specs with similar treatment - removed parts of core profession mechanics and instead whole spec mechanics added into one skill with one cooldown).

How can you tell me "not to ignore something" when not only I acknowledged what you said (it's just that it's really an irrelevant pseudo-argument and nothing more), you also ignored part of my post right before that?Class comparisons can be easly manipulated to show whatever the kitten you want, I already engaged in a great discussion like this in one of the previous berserker threads and it's not a problem to find an ""argument"" both FOR and AGAINST what you try to say (and it was LITERALLY the reaper example btw) . I'm fairly sure you were in that thread too, so feel free to look around and refresh your memory, I don't intend to screen through x threads for you or repeat the things I (and many others) already said, because as we can see on this example, you simply won't remember about it next week anyways. But yeah, I didn't "ignore" anything here.

And yeah, sure, lets powercreep the kitten out of a spec because you claim it would be "fun", that's the way to do it. :sleeping:...while we're at ignoring parts of the posts, pretty much wrote about it 2 messages above:

What's not fine is trying to justify powercreep specs because some already snuck into the game. That's not the direction it should be going and because of that people's complaints with that justification are simply wrong (in other words: they're complaining about wrong class/es).From the design standpoint, of course.

The spec isn't "incomplite" or "deficient" like some of you like to claim just because it's not a direct and undeniable upgrade from the core specs.

[Hashberry.4510]

The spec is merely garbage compared to pre makeover zerk.

[cryorion.9532]

@"Sobx.1758"Reaper is good example because berserker is basically inferior version of reaper shroud, mechanically. The only salvation for berserker is Arc Divider/Decapitate."The spec isn't "incomplite" or "deficient" like some of you like to claim just because it's not a direct and undeniable upgrade from the core specs."It would be direct upgrade if there were no trade-offs. And trade-offs are there. As some people already pointed out, there are too many trade offs which interferes with fun aspect of the spec. And one of the trade-offs (that this thread is about) is that there are too many traits that only improve berserk mode (power oriented builds). Which would be fine, if we wouldn't have to wait for Berserk 15 seconds all the time. Simply reducing CD of berserk from 15 to e.g. 10 seconds is not good solution imo. I think the effort put into reducing CD of berserk from the player somehow would be more interesting and rewarding at the same time.

Berserker should be rewarding for those who can keep up berserk long enough (condi) or make berserk cd short enough (power) by precise and near-perfect rotations... that is my idea of fun and complete rework.

[Sobx.1758]

No, it's a terrible example and it was already discussed in this context.Yes, there are trade offs, but you're trying to remove them which is kind of the point here.

[Rodrick.1942]

Sometimes I feel like @Sobx.1758 is actually one of the system team members, and since you keep talking about power creep, I hope next patch anet can make things right by cripple all elite spec which has mode mechanics.

All these time Anet make new elite spec by add some new features on top of core spec without cripple it, now you're telling me this is power creep. Ok sure if you all want to change game rule, do it quickly.

[Obtena.7952]

The trade off justification for the current state is flawed. The trade off exists in berserker mode between offesive and defensive stats ... No problem. What am I getting as a trade off in non-berserker mode?

Basically, we are getting 'double dipped' in trades for partial access to berserker mode. Once for the stat flip and another for a largely non-functioning traitline in non-berserker mode. Is that your idea of a reasonable tradeoff? I'm certainly not of that belief. As a few people said already ... if the minors still functioned at some level in non-berserker mode, there wouldn't be a (design) problem and in recognizing that, it's the first point in my assessment. Truly, if those minor traits still functioned in non-serker mode SOMEHOW ... I wouldn't have made this thread. I regard that as a design flaw in the spec.

You can't simply point to 'trade off' and say current berserker state is OK because warrior is not a class with many options to act and react ... the fewer passive/triggered effects this class has in ANY state, the less effective it is. If you look at how the other traitlines are built, you can see that even Anet acknowledges this disadvantage with the class. It is NOT unreasonable to expect that at the very least, the non-berserker mode functions with the same level of 'actions' as any other warrior spec, EVEN with Anet having tradeoffs for it. I don't mind having tradeoffs. That's not the complaint.

I mean, if it stayed as it is, I think it would be a shame ... it's a really appropriate theme and it adds a huge amount of flavour to the class. This is impressive given that it's the most archetypal MMO class you can get.

[Lighter.5631]

current berserker will be 100% viable and competitive if they replace unblockable signet with one stealth or blink utility skill lol

[Arheundel.6451]

@Rodrick.1942 said:Sometimes I feel like @Sobx.1758 is actually one of the system team members, and since you keep talking about power creep, I hope next patch anet can make things right by cripple all elite spec which has mode mechanics.

All these time Anet make new elite spec by add some new features on top of core spec without cripple it, now you're telling me this is power creep. Ok sure if you all want to change game rule, do it quickly.

Anet trying to reign in the absurd power creep they created and developed since day of HoT release , a powercreep that left only ele out of it as sort of dunno compensation for previous years I guess....but now it's time to pull back for all of you, you had 4 years of uninterrupted fun

[cryorion.9532]

@Sobx.1758 said:No, it's a terrible example and it was already discussed in this context.Yes, there are trade offs, but you're trying to remove them which is kind of the point here.

No, I am trying to give option to reduce waiting for berserk by smart/effortful gameplay. That is not removing trade-offs, there still won't be core bursts and -300 dps. Those are main trade-offs. It is just reducing the impact of trade-offs (being stuck out of berserk) by smart/effortful gameplay.Heck, I would even suggest Head Butt to reset Berserk CD upon successful hit, because it would make sense! But that damn powercreep...

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Obtena.7952 said:The trade off justification for the current state is flawed. The trade off exists in berserker mode between offesive and defensive stats ... No problem. What am I getting as a trade off in non-berserker mode?

Basically, we are getting 'double dipped' in trades for partial access to berserker mode. Once for the stat flip and another for a largely non-functioning traitline in non-berserker mode. Is that your idea of a reasonable tradeoff? I'm certainly not of that belief. As a few people said already ... if the minors still functioned at some level in non-berserker mode, there wouldn't be a (design) problem and in recognizing that, it's the first point in my assessment. Truly, if those minor traits still functioned in non-serker mode SOMEHOW ... I wouldn't have made this thread. I regard that as a design flaw in the spec.

You can't simply point to 'trade off' and say current berserker state is OK because warrior is not a class with many options to act and react ... the fewer passive/triggered effects this class has in ANY state, the less effective it is. If you look at how the other traitlines are built, you can see that even Anet acknowledges this disadvantage with the class. It is NOT unreasonable to expect that at the very least, the non-berserker mode functions with the same level of 'actions' as any other warrior spec, EVEN with Anet having tradeoffs for it. I don't mind having tradeoffs. That's not the complaint.

I mean, if it stayed as it is, I think it would be a shame ... it's a really appropriate theme and it adds a huge amount of flavour to the class. This is impressive given that it's the most archetypal MMO class you can

arenet know what their doing and have their vision of how classes/specs should be and us players have little reasoning behind asking for changes due to the fact that arenet make changes based on what their vision is and not players so this thread is moot no?So I gues though the players arent happy with the zerker changes they will have to accept that this is what arenet wants for zerker and we will just have to accept they know what their doing when it comes to warrior changes as who are we to judge. Or maybe that applies to non warrior classes only. :)

[Obtena.7952]

I guess you like having arguments not relevant to the topic ... that's fine. I simply won't qualify you with a response that will enable you to have one.

Anet is open to feedback ... good feedback to be precise. Since I know how to give it, I did. What they do from there on is whatever the game will be. It's irrelevant if players like it or not; they can choose to play any other class/spec/build they want. CHOICE is the ultimate answer, and we have lots to choose from.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Obtena.7952 said:I guess you like having arguments not relevant to the topic ... that's fine. I simply won't qualify you with a response that will enable you to have one.

Anet is open to feedback ... good feedback to be precise. Since I know how to give it, I did. What they do from there on is whatever the game will be. It's irrelevant if players like it or not; they can choose to play any other class/spec/build they want. CHOICE is the ultimate answer, and we have lots to choose from.

That's just the type of replies u post when players of other classes post about changes to other classes isn't it? Also regarding feedback and u knowing how to give it lol so other people's feedback are invalid but urs is because u believe u know how to give it where as most of the other players dont? I've seen countless threads on other classes where players did not like changes/nerfs or a direction arenet was going with a class and ur posts all referred some way that arenet knows their own game and why they make the changes they do and have their own direction for the class and it not for the players to divide or have a say in said changes or direction. Also saying that players have no impact on class changes and its coincidental when changes fall in line community ideas or complaints yet seems ur here doing the same thing other players are. Is it cuz u play warrior? Not trying to argue at all I'm just wondering is all.

[Obtena.7952]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I guess you like having arguments not relevant to the topic ... that's fine. I simply won't qualify you with a response that will enable you to have one.

Anet is open to feedback ... good feedback to be precise. Since I know how to give it, I did. What they do from there on is whatever the game will be. It's irrelevant if players like it or not; they can choose to play any other class/spec/build they want. CHOICE is the ultimate answer, and we have lots to choose from.

That's just the type of replies u post when players of other classes post about changes to other classes isn't it? Also regarding feedback and u knowing how to give it lol so other people's feedback are invalid but urs is because u believe u know how to give it where as most of the other players dont? I've seen countless threads on other classes where players did not like changes/nerfs or a direction arenet was going with a class and ur posts all referred some way that arenet knows their own game and why they make the changes they do and have their own direction for the class and it not for the players to divide or have a say in said changes or direction. Also saying that players have no impact on class changes and its coincidental when changes fall in line community ideas or complaints yet seems ur here doing the same thing other players are. Is it cuz u play warrior? Not trying to argue at all I'm just wondering is all.

OK ... none of this changes the truth to what I said, nor does anything here that add to the topic of the thread. If you want to have a discussion about player feedback impacts Anet's decisions to change the game, you're free to start a thread to do so and I would gladly contribute if you want me to or felt compelled to.

If you want to ask me a personal question, you can DM me.

[Sobx.1758]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:No, it's a terrible example and it was already discussed in this context.Yes, there are trade offs, but you're trying to remove them which is kind of the point here.

No, I am trying to give option to reduce waiting for berserk by smart/effortful gameplay. That is not removing trade-offs, there still won't be core bursts and -300 dps. Those are main trade-offs. It is just reducing the impact of trade-offs (being stuck out of berserk) by smart/effortful gameplay.Heck, I would even suggest Head Butt to reset Berserk CD upon successful hit, because it would make sense! But that kitten powercreep...

Just go play core warrior (or spb) if spamming F skills is all you want from the spec."because it would make sense"? How? <.<

it's a really appropriate theme and it adds a huge amount of flavour to the class. This is impressive given that it's the most archetypal MMO class you can get.

Well, at least you finally understood this much, that's something.

they can choose to play any other class/spec/build they want. CHOICE is the ultimate answer, and we have lots to choose from.

And that's pretty much what I keep repeating.

[cryorion.9532]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"cryorion.9532" said:Heck, I would even suggest Head Butt to reset Berserk CD upon successful hit, because it would make sense! But that kitten powercreep...

Just go play core warrior (or spb) if spamming F skills is all you want from the spec."because it would make sense"? How? <.<

The best and easiet argument to excuse unfun/incomplete rework is "go play something else" (even though the berserker has the best burst spam skill ever, Decapitate, just locked for 15 seconds everytime berserk ends). Mkay.It would make sense because, you know, when you head butt someone, you get enraged -> Berserk? It was just a joke though, because that would esentially allowed perma berserk with just one button.

[Sobx.1758]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:Heck, I would even suggest Head Butt to reset Berserk CD upon successful hit, because it would make sense! But that kitten powercreep...

Just go play core warrior (or spb) if spamming F skills is all you want from the spec."because it would make sense"? How? <.<

The best and easiet argument to excuse unfun/incomplete rework is "go play something else" (even though the berserker has the best burst spam skill ever, Decapitate, just locked for 15 seconds everytime berserk ends). Mkay.

It's not an "excuse for unfun/incomplete rework". I already told you on multiple occasions why I'm saying that, you know that, stop pretending I'm doing it as an excuse.Now, if you really don't understand why I'm saying that, then it seems nothing you read really goes into your head, at which point I'm not sure why I'm supposed to keep explaining same thing to you. Hence, the much shortened version of the 'arguments' from many previous threads and discussions. Seriously, are you just pretending right now or do you have a 3-day memory cap?

It would make sense because, you know, when you head butt someone, you get enraged -> Berserk? It was just a joke though, because that would esentially allowed perma berserk with just one button.

See, in your previous post it didn't look like an intended "joke", it seems more like you realised how stupid it would be. And that's also what I'm talking about -you (and a few other people) claim you're fine with trade offs and that it's not a direct upgrade beacuse of them and then.... you try to come up with ideas that remove the trade off/s. Hilarious.

[Lonecap.4105]

Honestly I enjoy how Berserker is atm but some things like underused weapons and skills need to be brought into line.

[cryorion.9532]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"cryorion.9532" said:It would make sense because, you know, when you head butt someone, you get enraged -> Berserk? It was just a joke though, because that would esentially allowed perma berserk with just one button.See, in your previous post it didn't look like an intended "joke", it seems more like you realised how stupid it would be. And that's also what I'm talking about -you (and a few other people) claim you're fine with trade offs and that it's not a direct upgrade beacuse of them and then.... you try to come up with ideas that remove the trade off/s. Hilarious.

I seriously thought about you may bring it like this and I was right. Hilarious.Not that I care since I don't take your arguments very seriously (from other threads, too).

[Sobx.1758]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@cryorion.9532 said:It would make sense because, you know, when you head butt someone, you get enraged -> Berserk? It was just a joke though, because that would esentially allowed perma berserk with just one button.See, in your previous post it didn't look like an intended "joke", it seems more like you realised how stupid it would be. And that's also what I'm talking about -you (and a few other people) claim you're fine with trade offs and that it's not a direct upgrade beacuse of them and then.... you try to come up with ideas that remove the trade off/s. Hilarious.

I seriously thought about you may bring it like this and I was right. Hilarious.

"thought about you may bring it like this"? Wow, now you got me convinced.It just occurred to me that you were also surely joking when you said FH being baseline warrior passive would be a reasonable change, damn you got me fooled again -hats off to your great sense of humor! :D

Not that I care since I don't take your arguments very seriously (from other threads, too).

Don't confuse "not understanding it" with "not taking it seriously". But I get it that you'd rather feel a little better about yourself, so call it like you want. You also failed to answer to the post you've quoted, but at this point it's not even surprising. Keep saying you're fine with tradeoffs while at the same time constantly trying to come up with ideas that remove them. :+1: