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The reasons Berserker fails

Obtena.7952

By Obtena.7952
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melandru.3876

melandru.3876

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and regarding being pushed in greatsword

that is not 100% true. gs f1 is nice, it is but it's not the only good one

mace/shield, axe/shield, hammer i even see people using sword/shield (spb "meta" used to be sword/shield aswell.primal mace burst has this nice smooth animation, it's allmost dagger leap and it will 100% hit and not bug out unlike other leaps somethimes do

hammer is awesome tho the 2 seconds immobilize whennot cleansed fast enough is usually the winner on it's own, no one expects immobilize from a warrior

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Sobx.1758
Sobx.1758

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain nich

Sobx.1758
Sobx.1758

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain nich

Sobx.1758
Sobx.1758

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain nich

RedShark.9548

RedShark.9548

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@melandru.3876 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

it is just L2P issueit is like reaperyou cant get alot of trait until you enter or exit reaper shroudreaper's might, spiteful spirit, plague sending, furious demise, path of corruption, w eakening shroud, armored shroud, shrouded removal, deadly strength, beyond the veil, unholy sanctuary, life from death, unholy m artyr, transfusion, unyielding blast, speed of shadows, soul barbs, foot in the grave, death perception, dhuumfire, reaper's onslaught

and now berserker is some how the same

It isn't. Like I've said in other threads and a bit in this one...

Reapers and Necros have the
option
of entering or exiting Shroud. They can turn it on or off, there is a cooldown after they turn it off but it allows them to put it onto cooldown so they don't potentially waste it as they unload into blocks or invulns or if the enemy kites away.

Those traits do actually have value because of the availability of Shroud to Necro which is on a much more consistent basis than Berserker has. Necro/Reaper does not need to build a full bar of Life Force, they only need 10% of it to activate Shroud and again once activated they can turn it off and put it onto cooldown should the situation call for it.

Berserker does not have this so saying they are the same is
not
accurate.

that why i said berserker SOME how the same

Right but that doesn't make it justification for any of this being a "l2p" issue. That makes Berserk Mode functionally horrible and having
the worst
functionality among all of the other "Mode" skills in the game.

Basically compared to the others...
it is garbage
.

i played berserker in plat 1 and i had little to no problems(mainly condi build such scourge)may be the elite mechanic is not garbage may be some thing else ( player skills )

Forgive me if I lack confidence in its performance outside of the PvP game mode that forces people to sit inside of a tiny capture point. We already see across multiple builds and have seen across multiple seasons that any AoE the engulfs the capture points is what dictates if that class/build is strong in the sPvP meta. The only outlier is "Does it have mobility?" and thats just for +1ing and rotating. Holo, Scourge, Firebrand (support wise), Spellbreaker, Chronomancer, and the list goes on. No one is denying the strength of Arc Divider, in fact its one of the few things I actually like about the changes. However everything else about the rework is terrible. Its all terribly clunky and it has completely trampled over the flow that Warrior typically has.

If Berserk Mode functioned more like Necro Shroud, or Forge Mode or Beast Mode then I would say you'd be right but it
doesn't
and thats a problem you're going to run into once people figure it out. It doesn't take much, trust me, but the GW2 community, even those in your "beloved" sPvP gamemode is typically a little slow on the uptake with this stuff. I've said it before on these forums but when I have gotten some Condi Mirage trying to "flex" at me by boasting about being in the top 250 and then once he played on any other build other than Condi Mirage (before the Mirage Cloak nerf) and they get run over like they are some new player...yeah it doesn't inspire confidence that "Plat 1" means anything anymore.

i never play condi in PvP i hate condi !!i play power holo power SB power core guard power teefmirage and scourge is the best carry elites in PvP

I hate condi too, but none of what you just said was my point.

My point is that the state of sPvP and its balance is just...not great. I stopped playing it because of that, as well as the wintrading in the top ranks during Ranked Seasons.

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

it is just L2P issueit is like reaperyou cant get alot of trait until you enter or exit reaper shroudreaper's might, spiteful spirit, plague sending, furious demise, path of corruption, w eakening shroud, armored shroud, shrouded removal, deadly strength, beyond the veil, unholy sanctuary, life from death, unholy m artyr, transfusion, unyielding blast, speed of shadows, soul barbs, foot in the grave, death perception, dhuumfire, reaper's onslaught

and now berserker is some how the same

It isn't. Like I've said in other threads and a bit in this one...

Reapers and Necros have the
option
of entering or exiting Shroud. They can turn it on or off, there is a cooldown after they turn it off but it allows them to put it onto cooldown so they don't potentially waste it as they unload into blocks or invulns or if the enemy kites away.

Those traits do actually have value because of the availability of Shroud to Necro which is on a much more consistent basis than Berserker has. Necro/Reaper does not need to build a full bar of Life Force, they only need 10% of it to activate Shroud and again once activated they can turn it off and put it onto cooldown should the situation call for it.

Berserker does not have this so saying they are the same is
not
accurate.

that why i said berserker SOME how the same

Right but that doesn't make it justification for any of this being a "l2p" issue. That makes Berserk Mode functionally horrible and having
the worst
functionality among all of the other "Mode" skills in the game.

Basically compared to the others...
it is garbage
.

i played berserker in plat 1 and i had little to no problems(mainly condi build such scourge)may be the elite mechanic is not garbage may be some thing else ( player skills )

The fact that everything is new right now makes your singular experience 1 day after the change rather meaningless to be honest. Wait until people can figure out you can basically shut down a Berserker with a dodge.

i hope you know that no 1 can dodge Arc Divider

I hope you realize that you've just told me for Berserker to minimize it's risk, I MUST play a GS ... and of course you missed the point of my statement but that's OK .. .that's on par for yo.

I'm not even talking about optimized play here. I'm talking at an even more basic level of function and play.

nearly every war build MUST use GS its the best kit and mobility weapon war havewhat weapon are you using ?

See, you don't get it. There isn't an argument here that the burst mechanic for Berserker is 'fine' because of GS Arc Divider ... that's ridiculous. If Anet didn't want you to have meaningful choices, we wouldn't GET meaningful choices. You're basically telling me that Anet doesn't want players have to meaningful choices outside of GS because of what 'must' be played. That's just nonsense. If anything, you're just helping me illustrate what's wrong with it ...

if I MUST play a GS, because how berserker mode triggers .. .that's a MASSIVE problem.

But you complained about "having to take GS", when you take GS anyways. Meaningful choices are cool, but how is this any argument here? It's not the only class o weapon that is picked on most builds for its utility, why is this a problem NOW with this particular spec?

Also your complaint about "minor traits" is pretty wierd to me. When you pick berk e-spec, it's directly tied to playing berserker and using its mechanic, which is why the minor traits are connected to it. It's not really anything out of ordinary and I'm not sure how (in your opening post) you went from "meaningful choices" to "minor traits being related to espec mechanic is bad". That just doesn't seem like a valid point to me. (and you still get the benefits of 'always angry' while not in berk)

Actually it is a little out of the ordinary. The minor traits for Berserker for other Elite Specs with "modes"? Soulbeast, Druid, Holosmith, Reaper don't have
all
of their minor traits entirely associated with their special mode.

I swear its like you guys are just...talking about things and comparing things you just do not understand. Where is your information? Its not hard to access. There is a wiki, and skill calculator websites.

you cry about minors while some GMs for necro can be ONLY used in shroud

Right...but you can choose whether to use those or not. The Minors (the ones you
can't
choose) are there and always there and Berserker is the only class with a "mode" skill that has Minors entirely built around their special mode.

Not crying, pointing out fact and also pointing out how someone was wrong.

NOnot true alot of necromancer minor trait can be only used while entering or exiting shroudreaper's might, furious demise, armored shroud

Except those Minor traits are in other Specializations that you use
with
Reaper and are not specifically a part of Reaper itself.

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

it is just L2P issueit is like reaperyou cant get alot of trait until you enter or exit reaper shroudreaper's might, spiteful spirit, plague sending, furious demise, path of corruption, w eakening shroud, armored shroud, shrouded removal, deadly strength, beyond the veil, unholy sanctuary, life from death, unholy m artyr, transfusion, unyielding blast, speed of shadows, soul barbs, foot in the grave, death perception, dhuumfire, reaper's onslaught

and now berserker is some how the same

It isn't. Like I've said in other threads and a bit in this one...

Reapers and Necros have the
option
of entering or exiting Shroud. They can turn it on or off, there is a cooldown after they turn it off but it allows them to put it onto cooldown so they don't potentially waste it as they unload into blocks or invulns or if the enemy kites away.

Those traits do actually have value because of the availability of Shroud to Necro which is on a much more consistent basis than Berserker has. Necro/Reaper does not need to build a full bar of Life Force, they only need 10% of it to activate Shroud and again once activated they can turn it off and put it onto cooldown should the situation call for it.

Berserker does not have this so saying they are the same is
not
accurate.

that why i said berserker SOME how the same

Right but that doesn't make it justification for any of this being a "l2p" issue. That makes Berserk Mode functionally horrible and having
the worst
functionality among all of the other "Mode" skills in the game.

Basically compared to the others...
it is garbage
.

i played berserker in plat 1 and i had little to no problems(mainly condi build such scourge)may be the elite mechanic is not garbage may be some thing else ( player skills )

The fact that everything is new right now makes your singular experience 1 day after the change rather meaningless to be honest. Wait until people can figure out you can basically shut down a Berserker with a dodge.

i hope you know that no 1 can dodge Arc Divider

I hope you realize that you've just told me for Berserker to minimize it's risk, I MUST play a GS ... and of course you missed the point of my statement but that's OK .. .that's on par for yo.

I'm not even talking about optimized play here. I'm talking at an even more basic level of function and play.

nearly every war build MUST use GS its the best kit and mobility weapon war havewhat weapon are you using ?

See, you don't get it. There isn't an argument here that the burst mechanic for Berserker is 'fine' because of GS Arc Divider ... that's ridiculous. If Anet didn't want you to have meaningful choices, we wouldn't GET meaningful choices. You're basically telling me that Anet doesn't want players have to meaningful choices outside of GS because of what 'must' be played. That's just nonsense. If anything, you're just helping me illustrate what's wrong with it ...

if I MUST play a GS, because how berserker mode triggers .. .that's a MASSIVE problem.

But you complained about "having to take GS", when you take GS anyways. Meaningful choices are cool, but how is this any argument here? It's not the only class o weapon that is picked on most builds for its utility, why is this a problem NOW with this particular spec?

Also your complaint about "minor traits" is pretty wierd to me. When you pick berk e-spec, it's directly tied to playing berserker and using its mechanic, which is why the minor traits are connected to it. It's not really anything out of ordinary and I'm not sure how (in your opening post) you went from "meaningful choices" to "minor traits being related to espec mechanic is bad". That just doesn't seem like a valid point to me. (and you still get the benefits of 'always angry' while not in berk)

Actually it is a little out of the ordinary. The minor traits for Berserker for other Elite Specs with "modes"? Soulbeast, Druid, Holosmith, Reaper don't have
all
of their minor traits entirely associated with their special mode.

I swear its like you guys are just...talking about things and comparing things you just do not understand. Where is your information? Its not hard to access. There is a wiki, and skill calculator websites.

It really isn't. Minor traits provide you no "choice", because when you pick the class, you just have them 'picked for you and they often just 'fine tune' the class or its playstyle, that's all they do in a lot of cases, saying that it's unfair for berserk to do that is just a lie.

You also "forgot" to clarify
.

True it fine tunes but those Minor traits don't directly or
only
affect the special mode from the Elite Spec. They affect the class even when outside of it.

Berserker, again, is the only Elite Spec where every minor trait in that
specific
line only affects the special mode from it. Maybe take a look at the Minor Traits for Druid, Soulbeast, Holosmith and Reaper and see what I mean.

As for that other comment, you are "wasting" opportunities to land your burst skills which you
need
for sustain when using Defense, you only get access to these burst skills when in Berserk Mode. Berserk Mode does count as a level 3 burst but if you are unable to land any burst skills within the short time frame in which Berserk Mode is active then those 3 stacks disappear very quickly. Smarter players will just kite your Berserk Duration or use defensive cooldowns to avoid getting hit by any of these burst skills for the duration. Its a similar problem as to why Rampage isn't exactly
that
strong in WvW, because you have much more space to just kite out the duration of Rampage, the same can be done to Berserk Mode. The entire reason for canceling a skill or mode like any of the ones we have is so that you're not using up resources or denying yourself access to others based on the circumstances.

With Reaper if you use Reaper's Shroud and you're fighting a Weaver, the Weaver sees you use it and immediately uses their Invuln and Blocks to negate the damage or kites away. You can either continue to drain your lifeforce and stay in Reaper's Shroud, or cancel it and disengage a bit to buy time for it to return (10 seconds) to then unload your burst into a Weaver that now lacks their defensive cooldowns.

With the way Berserk Mode works right now, if you use it and any of those things happen when, just as an
example
, you're fighting a Weaver then you are completely denied Adrenal Health stacks for
survival
from landing your burst skills (you do not gain Adrenal Health stacks if your burst skills are blocked, invuln'd, miss or are dodged). Berserk Mode then ends and you now have to build 3 bars of Adrenaline again and are denied access to using Burst skills to maintain your sustain until that happens. Until then you're likely very vulnerable, especially if you needed to waste any stunbreaks or other defensive skills during the duration of Berserk Mode since in that particular example a Weaver can still attack you even while invuln'd or blocking. The inability to end Berserk Mode early is a hindrance, in fact if they simply made it work similarly to any of the other "modes" then it would likely perform much better, however that isn't the case.

but,

using berserk allready provides you with 3 stacks of adrenal health for 15 seconds you don't need to land a burst skill for that, not anymore

i play berserk like in played spb in plat 3 last season

when i tether, i go on offensive, when tether is on cd i am oni defensivereplace tether with berserker, still the same

only thing that changed is the might for might makes right sustain, which is why i (and probably everyone) not use might makes right anymore

try gs + hammer with merciless hammer trait and burst mastery trait

primal hammer burst is sweet, and 10 adrenaline on disable, so building up enough adenaline for your next berserk, shouldn't be that hard

So you are running berserk, defense and offense?With adrenal health and hammer trait?

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KryTiKaL.3125

KryTiKaL.3125

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@melandru.3876 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

it is just L2P issueit is like reaperyou cant get alot of trait until you enter or exit reaper shroudreaper's might, spiteful spirit, plague sending, furious demise, path of corruption, w eakening shroud, armored shroud, shrouded removal, deadly strength, beyond the veil, unholy sanctuary, life from death, unholy m artyr, transfusion, unyielding blast, speed of shadows, soul barbs, foot in the grave, death perception, dhuumfire, reaper's onslaught

and now berserker is some how the same

It isn't. Like I've said in other threads and a bit in this one...

Reapers and Necros have the
option
of entering or exiting Shroud. They can turn it on or off, there is a cooldown after they turn it off but it allows them to put it onto cooldown so they don't potentially waste it as they unload into blocks or invulns or if the enemy kites away.

Those traits do actually have value because of the availability of Shroud to Necro which is on a much more consistent basis than Berserker has. Necro/Reaper does not need to build a full bar of Life Force, they only need 10% of it to activate Shroud and again once activated they can turn it off and put it onto cooldown should the situation call for it.

Berserker does not have this so saying they are the same is
not
accurate.

that why i said berserker SOME how the same

Right but that doesn't make it justification for any of this being a "l2p" issue. That makes Berserk Mode functionally horrible and having
the worst
functionality among all of the other "Mode" skills in the game.

Basically compared to the others...
it is garbage
.

i played berserker in plat 1 and i had little to no problems(mainly condi build such scourge)may be the elite mechanic is not garbage may be some thing else ( player skills )

Forgive me if I lack confidence in its performance outside of the PvP game mode that forces people to sit inside of a tiny capture point. We already see across multiple builds and have seen across multiple seasons that any AoE the engulfs the capture points is what dictates if that class/build is strong in the sPvP meta. The only outlier is "Does it have mobility?" and thats just for +1ing and rotating. Holo, Scourge, Firebrand (support wise), Spellbreaker, Chronomancer, and the list goes on. No one is denying the strength of Arc Divider, in fact its one of the few things I actually like about the changes. However everything else about the rework is terrible. Its all terribly clunky and it has completely trampled over the flow that Warrior typically has.

If Berserk Mode functioned more like Necro Shroud, or Forge Mode or Beast Mode then I would say you'd be right but it
doesn't
and thats a problem you're going to run into once people figure it out. It doesn't take much, trust me, but the GW2 community, even those in your "beloved" sPvP gamemode is typically a little slow on the uptake with this stuff. I've said it before on these forums but when I have gotten some Condi Mirage trying to "flex" at me by boasting about being in the top 250 and then once he played on any other build other than Condi Mirage (before the Mirage Cloak nerf) and they get run over like they are some new player...yeah it doesn't inspire confidence that "Plat 1" means anything anymore.

i never play condi in PvP i hate condi !!i play power holo power SB power core guard power teefmirage and scourge is the best carry elites in PvP

I hate condi too, but none of what you just said was my point.

My point is that the state of sPvP and its balance is just...not great. I stopped playing it because of that, as well as the wintrading in the top ranks during Ranked Seasons.

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

it is just L2P issueit is like reaperyou cant get alot of trait until you enter or exit reaper shroudreaper's might, spiteful spirit, plague sending, furious demise, path of corruption, w eakening shroud, armored shroud, shrouded removal, deadly strength, beyond the veil, unholy sanctuary, life from death, unholy m artyr, transfusion, unyielding blast, speed of shadows, soul barbs, foot in the grave, death perception, dhuumfire, reaper's onslaught

and now berserker is some how the same

It isn't. Like I've said in other threads and a bit in this one...

Reapers and Necros have the
option
of entering or exiting Shroud. They can turn it on or off, there is a cooldown after they turn it off but it allows them to put it onto cooldown so they don't potentially waste it as they unload into blocks or invulns or if the enemy kites away.

Those traits do actually have value because of the availability of Shroud to Necro which is on a much more consistent basis than Berserker has. Necro/Reaper does not need to build a full bar of Life Force, they only need 10% of it to activate Shroud and again once activated they can turn it off and put it onto cooldown should the situation call for it.

Berserker does not have this so saying they are the same is
not
accurate.

that why i said berserker SOME how the same

Right but that doesn't make it justification for any of this being a "l2p" issue. That makes Berserk Mode functionally horrible and having
the worst
functionality among all of the other "Mode" skills in the game.

Basically compared to the others...
it is garbage
.

i played berserker in plat 1 and i had little to no problems(mainly condi build such scourge)may be the elite mechanic is not garbage may be some thing else ( player skills )

The fact that everything is new right now makes your singular experience 1 day after the change rather meaningless to be honest. Wait until people can figure out you can basically shut down a Berserker with a dodge.

i hope you know that no 1 can dodge Arc Divider

I hope you realize that you've just told me for Berserker to minimize it's risk, I MUST play a GS ... and of course you missed the point of my statement but that's OK .. .that's on par for yo.

I'm not even talking about optimized play here. I'm talking at an even more basic level of function and play.

nearly every war build MUST use GS its the best kit and mobility weapon war havewhat weapon are you using ?

See, you don't get it. There isn't an argument here that the burst mechanic for Berserker is 'fine' because of GS Arc Divider ... that's ridiculous. If Anet didn't want you to have meaningful choices, we wouldn't GET meaningful choices. You're basically telling me that Anet doesn't want players have to meaningful choices outside of GS because of what 'must' be played. That's just nonsense. If anything, you're just helping me illustrate what's wrong with it ...

if I MUST play a GS, because how berserker mode triggers .. .that's a MASSIVE problem.

But you complained about "having to take GS", when you take GS anyways. Meaningful choices are cool, but how is this any argument here? It's not the only class o weapon that is picked on most builds for its utility, why is this a problem NOW with this particular spec?

Also your complaint about "minor traits" is pretty wierd to me. When you pick berk e-spec, it's directly tied to playing berserker and using its mechanic, which is why the minor traits are connected to it. It's not really anything out of ordinary and I'm not sure how (in your opening post) you went from "meaningful choices" to "minor traits being related to espec mechanic is bad". That just doesn't seem like a valid point to me. (and you still get the benefits of 'always angry' while not in berk)

Actually it is a little out of the ordinary. The minor traits for Berserker for other Elite Specs with "modes"? Soulbeast, Druid, Holosmith, Reaper don't have
all
of their minor traits entirely associated with their special mode.

I swear its like you guys are just...talking about things and comparing things you just do not understand. Where is your information? Its not hard to access. There is a wiki, and skill calculator websites.

you cry about minors while some GMs for necro can be ONLY used in shroud

Right...but you can choose whether to use those or not. The Minors (the ones you
can't
choose) are there and always there and Berserker is the only class with a "mode" skill that has Minors entirely built around their special mode.

Not crying, pointing out fact and also pointing out how someone was wrong.

NOnot true alot of necromancer minor trait can be only used while entering or exiting shroudreaper's might, furious demise, armored shroud

Except those Minor traits are in other Specializations that you use
with
Reaper and are not specifically a part of Reaper itself.

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

it is just L2P issueit is like reaperyou cant get alot of trait until you enter or exit reaper shroudreaper's might, spiteful spirit, plague sending, furious demise, path of corruption, w eakening shroud, armored shroud, shrouded removal, deadly strength, beyond the veil, unholy sanctuary, life from death, unholy m artyr, transfusion, unyielding blast, speed of shadows, soul barbs, foot in the grave, death perception, dhuumfire, reaper's onslaught

and now berserker is some how the same

It isn't. Like I've said in other threads and a bit in this one...

Reapers and Necros have the
option
of entering or exiting Shroud. They can turn it on or off, there is a cooldown after they turn it off but it allows them to put it onto cooldown so they don't potentially waste it as they unload into blocks or invulns or if the enemy kites away.

Those traits do actually have value because of the availability of Shroud to Necro which is on a much more consistent basis than Berserker has. Necro/Reaper does not need to build a full bar of Life Force, they only need 10% of it to activate Shroud and again once activated they can turn it off and put it onto cooldown should the situation call for it.

Berserker does not have this so saying they are the same is
not
accurate.

that why i said berserker SOME how the same

Right but that doesn't make it justification for any of this being a "l2p" issue. That makes Berserk Mode functionally horrible and having
the worst
functionality among all of the other "Mode" skills in the game.

Basically compared to the others...
it is garbage
.

i played berserker in plat 1 and i had little to no problems(mainly condi build such scourge)may be the elite mechanic is not garbage may be some thing else ( player skills )

The fact that everything is new right now makes your singular experience 1 day after the change rather meaningless to be honest. Wait until people can figure out you can basically shut down a Berserker with a dodge.

i hope you know that no 1 can dodge Arc Divider

I hope you realize that you've just told me for Berserker to minimize it's risk, I MUST play a GS ... and of course you missed the point of my statement but that's OK .. .that's on par for yo.

I'm not even talking about optimized play here. I'm talking at an even more basic level of function and play.

nearly every war build MUST use GS its the best kit and mobility weapon war havewhat weapon are you using ?

See, you don't get it. There isn't an argument here that the burst mechanic for Berserker is 'fine' because of GS Arc Divider ... that's ridiculous. If Anet didn't want you to have meaningful choices, we wouldn't GET meaningful choices. You're basically telling me that Anet doesn't want players have to meaningful choices outside of GS because of what 'must' be played. That's just nonsense. If anything, you're just helping me illustrate what's wrong with it ...

if I MUST play a GS, because how berserker mode triggers .. .that's a MASSIVE problem.

But you complained about "having to take GS", when you take GS anyways. Meaningful choices are cool, but how is this any argument here? It's not the only class o weapon that is picked on most builds for its utility, why is this a problem NOW with this particular spec?

Also your complaint about "minor traits" is pretty wierd to me. When you pick berk e-spec, it's directly tied to playing berserker and using its mechanic, which is why the minor traits are connected to it. It's not really anything out of ordinary and I'm not sure how (in your opening post) you went from "meaningful choices" to "minor traits being related to espec mechanic is bad". That just doesn't seem like a valid point to me. (and you still get the benefits of 'always angry' while not in berk)

Actually it is a little out of the ordinary. The minor traits for Berserker for other Elite Specs with "modes"? Soulbeast, Druid, Holosmith, Reaper don't have
all
of their minor traits entirely associated with their special mode.

I swear its like you guys are just...talking about things and comparing things you just do not understand. Where is your information? Its not hard to access. There is a wiki, and skill calculator websites.

It really isn't. Minor traits provide you no "choice", because when you pick the class, you just have them 'picked for you and they often just 'fine tune' the class or its playstyle, that's all they do in a lot of cases, saying that it's unfair for berserk to do that is just a lie.

You also "forgot" to clarify
.

True it fine tunes but those Minor traits don't directly or
only
affect the special mode from the Elite Spec. They affect the class even when outside of it.

Berserker, again, is the only Elite Spec where every minor trait in that
specific
line only affects the special mode from it. Maybe take a look at the Minor Traits for Druid, Soulbeast, Holosmith and Reaper and see what I mean.

As for that other comment, you are "wasting" opportunities to land your burst skills which you
need
for sustain when using Defense, you only get access to these burst skills when in Berserk Mode. Berserk Mode does count as a level 3 burst but if you are unable to land any burst skills within the short time frame in which Berserk Mode is active then those 3 stacks disappear very quickly. Smarter players will just kite your Berserk Duration or use defensive cooldowns to avoid getting hit by any of these burst skills for the duration. Its a similar problem as to why Rampage isn't exactly
that
strong in WvW, because you have much more space to just kite out the duration of Rampage, the same can be done to Berserk Mode. The entire reason for canceling a skill or mode like any of the ones we have is so that you're not using up resources or denying yourself access to others based on the circumstances.

With Reaper if you use Reaper's Shroud and you're fighting a Weaver, the Weaver sees you use it and immediately uses their Invuln and Blocks to negate the damage or kites away. You can either continue to drain your lifeforce and stay in Reaper's Shroud, or cancel it and disengage a bit to buy time for it to return (10 seconds) to then unload your burst into a Weaver that now lacks their defensive cooldowns.

With the way Berserk Mode works right now, if you use it and any of those things happen when, just as an
example
, you're fighting a Weaver then you are completely denied Adrenal Health stacks for
survival
from landing your burst skills (you do not gain Adrenal Health stacks if your burst skills are blocked, invuln'd, miss or are dodged). Berserk Mode then ends and you now have to build 3 bars of Adrenaline again and are denied access to using Burst skills to maintain your sustain until that happens. Until then you're likely very vulnerable, especially if you needed to waste any stunbreaks or other defensive skills during the duration of Berserk Mode since in that particular example a Weaver can still attack you even while invuln'd or blocking. The inability to end Berserk Mode early is a hindrance, in fact if they simply made it work similarly to any of the other "modes" then it would likely perform much better, however that isn't the case.

but,

using berserk allready provides you with 3 stacks of adrenal health for 15 seconds you don't need to land a burst skill for that, not anymore

i play berserk like in played spb in plat 3 last season

when i tether, i go on offensive, when tether is on cd i am oni defensivereplace tether with berserker, still the same

only thing that changed is the might for might makes right sustain, which is why i (and probably everyone) not use might makes right anymore

try gs + hammer with merciless hammer trait and burst mastery trait

primal hammer burst is sweet, and 10 adrenaline on disable, so building up enough adenaline for your next berserk, shouldn't be that hard

True, you have Adrenal Health for the duration of Berserk Mode. However we run into the same problem of "If you want to maintain Adrenal Health stacks for prolonged fights then you better land those bursts in Berserk Mode" which people can and will just kite and avoid with defenses. Then once Berserk Mode ends...your pressure is essentially gone. Sure you can play defensively but ultimately your sustain is not great. Outside of Berserk Mode you can't take advantage of your blocks and "invuln" states to regenerate health from Adrenal Health if you just happen to take too much damage which will happen, or if you did use them during Berserk Mode then you no longer have them for when you're out of Berserk Mode.

Thematically I'm sure Anet hit the nail on the head with Berserker, trade defense for offense. Boom, you got it. Functionally, however? Terrible. It plays and feels worse than it did before the rework and Arc Divider is now the one trick pony skill that is keeping the Elite Spec afloat for now.

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Lighter.5631

Lighter.5631

Posted
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they say berserk is risk and reward, yet not going berserk actually gives a bigger disadvantage( in pvp)

and its so hard to gain 30 adrenaline when most enemy sustain are from negate/avoid instead of being hit.

your burst are not only gated behind double CD wall also a high energy wall, thats absurd and it's can miss easily,that's too high risk for too low reward

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KryTiKaL.3125

KryTiKaL.3125

Posted
Posted

@Sobx.1758 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

Imagine you can use berserk without full adrenaline, but you get hit once and it automatically goes on cooldown without you being able to do kitten about that. One time you compare the two when it fits you, then you say the comparisons don't work here, but it's clear you just say that because it can show different things depending on what you're trying to prove. The classes, their skills, resources and playstyles are different, so you might as well stop trying to make an argument out of that. Just because you like "x resource on y class" doesn't magically make another class a "bad design". You're just saying that because you don't want to have any meaningful downside. Pop berk, but someone burns escape cooldowns? w/e, turn off the berk and wait for him to come back (or keep chasing him to pop berk again in case you catch him because you're a warrior with kitten of mobility). Good design, ok.

Well alright then, lets go with your logic here and apply it elsewhere. The premise of having "meaningful downsides" on Elite Specs.

Judging by your forum avatar I am going to assume you play thief as a main, correct me if I'm wrong but I will go forward with that assumption for now.

Between Core Thief, Daredevil and Deadeye...

What are the downsides to swapping to Daredevil? You gain an extra dodge, arguably more damage, a variety of dodge "styles" (dash, bound, spin). Downside? 600 range Steal...? Steal still works the same and you still have your teleports and other mobility which is probably made better with Daredevil.

What are the downsides to swapping to Deadeye? You gain perma stealth, 1200 to 1500 range rifle attacks, more damage, a "ranged" steal. Downside? Squishier...? You don't really lose your mobility, stealth is arguably one of the best "defenses" in this game aside from invulns.

So maybe before you start projecting this idea of "you don't want to have any meaningful downside" just look at your own class, presumably, that you play and consider that perspective.

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melandru.3876

melandru.3876

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@RedShark.9548 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

it is just L2P issueit is like reaperyou cant get alot of trait until you enter or exit reaper shroudreaper's might, spiteful spirit, plague sending, furious demise, path of corruption, w eakening shroud, armored shroud, shrouded removal, deadly strength, beyond the veil, unholy sanctuary, life from death, unholy m artyr, transfusion, unyielding blast, speed of shadows, soul barbs, foot in the grave, death perception, dhuumfire, reaper's onslaught

and now berserker is some how the same

It isn't. Like I've said in other threads and a bit in this one...

Reapers and Necros have the
option
of entering or exiting Shroud. They can turn it on or off, there is a cooldown after they turn it off but it allows them to put it onto cooldown so they don't potentially waste it as they unload into blocks or invulns or if the enemy kites away.

Those traits do actually have value because of the availability of Shroud to Necro which is on a much more consistent basis than Berserker has. Necro/Reaper does not need to build a full bar of Life Force, they only need 10% of it to activate Shroud and again once activated they can turn it off and put it onto cooldown should the situation call for it.

Berserker does not have this so saying they are the same is
not
accurate.

that why i said berserker SOME how the same

Right but that doesn't make it justification for any of this being a "l2p" issue. That makes Berserk Mode functionally horrible and having
the worst
functionality among all of the other "Mode" skills in the game.

Basically compared to the others...
it is garbage
.

i played berserker in plat 1 and i had little to no problems(mainly condi build such scourge)may be the elite mechanic is not garbage may be some thing else ( player skills )

Forgive me if I lack confidence in its performance outside of the PvP game mode that forces people to sit inside of a tiny capture point. We already see across multiple builds and have seen across multiple seasons that any AoE the engulfs the capture points is what dictates if that class/build is strong in the sPvP meta. The only outlier is "Does it have mobility?" and thats just for +1ing and rotating. Holo, Scourge, Firebrand (support wise), Spellbreaker, Chronomancer, and the list goes on. No one is denying the strength of Arc Divider, in fact its one of the few things I actually like about the changes. However everything else about the rework is terrible. Its all terribly clunky and it has completely trampled over the flow that Warrior typically has.

If Berserk Mode functioned more like Necro Shroud, or Forge Mode or Beast Mode then I would say you'd be right but it
doesn't
and thats a problem you're going to run into once people figure it out. It doesn't take much, trust me, but the GW2 community, even those in your "beloved" sPvP gamemode is typically a little slow on the uptake with this stuff. I've said it before on these forums but when I have gotten some Condi Mirage trying to "flex" at me by boasting about being in the top 250 and then once he played on any other build other than Condi Mirage (before the Mirage Cloak nerf) and they get run over like they are some new player...yeah it doesn't inspire confidence that "Plat 1" means anything anymore.

i never play condi in PvP i hate condi !!i play power holo power SB power core guard power teefmirage and scourge is the best carry elites in PvP

I hate condi too, but none of what you just said was my point.

My point is that the state of sPvP and its balance is just...not great. I stopped playing it because of that, as well as the wintrading in the top ranks during Ranked Seasons.

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

it is just L2P issueit is like reaperyou cant get alot of trait until you enter or exit reaper shroudreaper's might, spiteful spirit, plague sending, furious demise, path of corruption, w eakening shroud, armored shroud, shrouded removal, deadly strength, beyond the veil, unholy sanctuary, life from death, unholy m artyr, transfusion, unyielding blast, speed of shadows, soul barbs, foot in the grave, death perception, dhuumfire, reaper's onslaught

and now berserker is some how the same

It isn't. Like I've said in other threads and a bit in this one...

Reapers and Necros have the
option
of entering or exiting Shroud. They can turn it on or off, there is a cooldown after they turn it off but it allows them to put it onto cooldown so they don't potentially waste it as they unload into blocks or invulns or if the enemy kites away.

Those traits do actually have value because of the availability of Shroud to Necro which is on a much more consistent basis than Berserker has. Necro/Reaper does not need to build a full bar of Life Force, they only need 10% of it to activate Shroud and again once activated they can turn it off and put it onto cooldown should the situation call for it.

Berserker does not have this so saying they are the same is
not
accurate.

that why i said berserker SOME how the same

Right but that doesn't make it justification for any of this being a "l2p" issue. That makes Berserk Mode functionally horrible and having
the worst
functionality among all of the other "Mode" skills in the game.

Basically compared to the others...
it is garbage
.

i played berserker in plat 1 and i had little to no problems(mainly condi build such scourge)may be the elite mechanic is not garbage may be some thing else ( player skills )

The fact that everything is new right now makes your singular experience 1 day after the change rather meaningless to be honest. Wait until people can figure out you can basically shut down a Berserker with a dodge.

i hope you know that no 1 can dodge Arc Divider

I hope you realize that you've just told me for Berserker to minimize it's risk, I MUST play a GS ... and of course you missed the point of my statement but that's OK .. .that's on par for yo.

I'm not even talking about optimized play here. I'm talking at an even more basic level of function and play.

nearly every war build MUST use GS its the best kit and mobility weapon war havewhat weapon are you using ?

See, you don't get it. There isn't an argument here that the burst mechanic for Berserker is 'fine' because of GS Arc Divider ... that's ridiculous. If Anet didn't want you to have meaningful choices, we wouldn't GET meaningful choices. You're basically telling me that Anet doesn't want players have to meaningful choices outside of GS because of what 'must' be played. That's just nonsense. If anything, you're just helping me illustrate what's wrong with it ...

if I MUST play a GS, because how berserker mode triggers .. .that's a MASSIVE problem.

But you complained about "having to take GS", when you take GS anyways. Meaningful choices are cool, but how is this any argument here? It's not the only class o weapon that is picked on most builds for its utility, why is this a problem NOW with this particular spec?

Also your complaint about "minor traits" is pretty wierd to me. When you pick berk e-spec, it's directly tied to playing berserker and using its mechanic, which is why the minor traits are connected to it. It's not really anything out of ordinary and I'm not sure how (in your opening post) you went from "meaningful choices" to "minor traits being related to espec mechanic is bad". That just doesn't seem like a valid point to me. (and you still get the benefits of 'always angry' while not in berk)

Actually it is a little out of the ordinary. The minor traits for Berserker for other Elite Specs with "modes"? Soulbeast, Druid, Holosmith, Reaper don't have
all
of their minor traits entirely associated with their special mode.

I swear its like you guys are just...talking about things and comparing things you just do not understand. Where is your information? Its not hard to access. There is a wiki, and skill calculator websites.

you cry about minors while some GMs for necro can be ONLY used in shroud

Right...but you can choose whether to use those or not. The Minors (the ones you
can't
choose) are there and always there and Berserker is the only class with a "mode" skill that has Minors entirely built around their special mode.

Not crying, pointing out fact and also pointing out how someone was wrong.

NOnot true alot of necromancer minor trait can be only used while entering or exiting shroudreaper's might, furious demise, armored shroud

Except those Minor traits are in other Specializations that you use
with
Reaper and are not specifically a part of Reaper itself.

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

it is just L2P issueit is like reaperyou cant get alot of trait until you enter or exit reaper shroudreaper's might, spiteful spirit, plague sending, furious demise, path of corruption, w eakening shroud, armored shroud, shrouded removal, deadly strength, beyond the veil, unholy sanctuary, life from death, unholy m artyr, transfusion, unyielding blast, speed of shadows, soul barbs, foot in the grave, death perception, dhuumfire, reaper's onslaught

and now berserker is some how the same

It isn't. Like I've said in other threads and a bit in this one...

Reapers and Necros have the
option
of entering or exiting Shroud. They can turn it on or off, there is a cooldown after they turn it off but it allows them to put it onto cooldown so they don't potentially waste it as they unload into blocks or invulns or if the enemy kites away.

Those traits do actually have value because of the availability of Shroud to Necro which is on a much more consistent basis than Berserker has. Necro/Reaper does not need to build a full bar of Life Force, they only need 10% of it to activate Shroud and again once activated they can turn it off and put it onto cooldown should the situation call for it.

Berserker does not have this so saying they are the same is
not
accurate.

that why i said berserker SOME how the same

Right but that doesn't make it justification for any of this being a "l2p" issue. That makes Berserk Mode functionally horrible and having
the worst
functionality among all of the other "Mode" skills in the game.

Basically compared to the others...
it is garbage
.

i played berserker in plat 1 and i had little to no problems(mainly condi build such scourge)may be the elite mechanic is not garbage may be some thing else ( player skills )

The fact that everything is new right now makes your singular experience 1 day after the change rather meaningless to be honest. Wait until people can figure out you can basically shut down a Berserker with a dodge.

i hope you know that no 1 can dodge Arc Divider

I hope you realize that you've just told me for Berserker to minimize it's risk, I MUST play a GS ... and of course you missed the point of my statement but that's OK .. .that's on par for yo.

I'm not even talking about optimized play here. I'm talking at an even more basic level of function and play.

nearly every war build MUST use GS its the best kit and mobility weapon war havewhat weapon are you using ?

See, you don't get it. There isn't an argument here that the burst mechanic for Berserker is 'fine' because of GS Arc Divider ... that's ridiculous. If Anet didn't want you to have meaningful choices, we wouldn't GET meaningful choices. You're basically telling me that Anet doesn't want players have to meaningful choices outside of GS because of what 'must' be played. That's just nonsense. If anything, you're just helping me illustrate what's wrong with it ...

if I MUST play a GS, because how berserker mode triggers .. .that's a MASSIVE problem.

But you complained about "having to take GS", when you take GS anyways. Meaningful choices are cool, but how is this any argument here? It's not the only class o weapon that is picked on most builds for its utility, why is this a problem NOW with this particular spec?

Also your complaint about "minor traits" is pretty wierd to me. When you pick berk e-spec, it's directly tied to playing berserker and using its mechanic, which is why the minor traits are connected to it. It's not really anything out of ordinary and I'm not sure how (in your opening post) you went from "meaningful choices" to "minor traits being related to espec mechanic is bad". That just doesn't seem like a valid point to me. (and you still get the benefits of 'always angry' while not in berk)

Actually it is a little out of the ordinary. The minor traits for Berserker for other Elite Specs with "modes"? Soulbeast, Druid, Holosmith, Reaper don't have
all
of their minor traits entirely associated with their special mode.

I swear its like you guys are just...talking about things and comparing things you just do not understand. Where is your information? Its not hard to access. There is a wiki, and skill calculator websites.

It really isn't. Minor traits provide you no "choice", because when you pick the class, you just have them 'picked for you and they often just 'fine tune' the class or its playstyle, that's all they do in a lot of cases, saying that it's unfair for berserk to do that is just a lie.

You also "forgot" to clarify
.

True it fine tunes but those Minor traits don't directly or
only
affect the special mode from the Elite Spec. They affect the class even when outside of it.

Berserker, again, is the only Elite Spec where every minor trait in that
specific
line only affects the special mode from it. Maybe take a look at the Minor Traits for Druid, Soulbeast, Holosmith and Reaper and see what I mean.

As for that other comment, you are "wasting" opportunities to land your burst skills which you
need
for sustain when using Defense, you only get access to these burst skills when in Berserk Mode. Berserk Mode does count as a level 3 burst but if you are unable to land any burst skills within the short time frame in which Berserk Mode is active then those 3 stacks disappear very quickly. Smarter players will just kite your Berserk Duration or use defensive cooldowns to avoid getting hit by any of these burst skills for the duration. Its a similar problem as to why Rampage isn't exactly
that
strong in WvW, because you have much more space to just kite out the duration of Rampage, the same can be done to Berserk Mode. The entire reason for canceling a skill or mode like any of the ones we have is so that you're not using up resources or denying yourself access to others based on the circumstances.

With Reaper if you use Reaper's Shroud and you're fighting a Weaver, the Weaver sees you use it and immediately uses their Invuln and Blocks to negate the damage or kites away. You can either continue to drain your lifeforce and stay in Reaper's Shroud, or cancel it and disengage a bit to buy time for it to return (10 seconds) to then unload your burst into a Weaver that now lacks their defensive cooldowns.

With the way Berserk Mode works right now, if you use it and any of those things happen when, just as an
example
, you're fighting a Weaver then you are completely denied Adrenal Health stacks for
survival
from landing your burst skills (you do not gain Adrenal Health stacks if your burst skills are blocked, invuln'd, miss or are dodged). Berserk Mode then ends and you now have to build 3 bars of Adrenaline again and are denied access to using Burst skills to maintain your sustain until that happens. Until then you're likely very vulnerable, especially if you needed to waste any stunbreaks or other defensive skills during the duration of Berserk Mode since in that particular example a Weaver can still attack you even while invuln'd or blocking. The inability to end Berserk Mode early is a hindrance, in fact if they simply made it work similarly to any of the other "modes" then it would likely perform much better, however that isn't the case.

but,

using berserk allready provides you with 3 stacks of adrenal health for 15 seconds you don't need to land a burst skill for that, not anymore

i play berserk like in played spb in plat 3 last season

when i tether, i go on offensive, when tether is on cd i am oni defensivereplace tether with berserker, still the same

only thing that changed is the might for might makes right sustain, which is why i (and probably everyone) not use might makes right anymore

try gs + hammer with merciless hammer trait and burst mastery trait

primal hammer burst is sweet, and 10 adrenaline on disable, so building up enough adenaline for your next berserk, shouldn't be that hard

So you are running berserk, defense and offense?With adrenal health and hammer trait?

i have run 3 builds so far

1) disc/def/ber http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAR3enMdAldglkCeeAElilrADJAc1SdK5gWXN4d0maftA-jlCHQBhR3A82fIgK/GwBBAAXAAC8AA+j6DOUJo8UhpZHBg5BBALSgVVqqqKZAqGDA-wthis build was quite durable in 1vs 2 and 1 vs 3, damage was on the lower end but i allways came out on top due to sustain

2) str/disc/ber http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAR3ejMdQZH25B2dApIWICMjAQEYAcUGyALv3k7yN6C-jFyHQBA4gA8tHAoboF7PosjAQAuAAMUJ47U/5fK/mHEAsIBUVVVSBcxyI-wthis build was an utter fail, arms is just not worth taking at all, it's just better to wait out blocks, and thent burst

3) http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQJARSnMdAldglkCeeAElilgADZGM4qevP3o7114AUCDAA-jVCIABwfEAkZ/BAeAA5p+TcKBf/QA0lugAuAA8o8beQAwiCYVlqqqSKgqUGB-wcurrently playing this build, and having a blast with ithammer 2 hits for a ton

build xorks great in 1v1, but in 1 vs x the lack of movement speed, and condi cleanses hurts

probably going back to the first variant

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@DragonFury.6243 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

imagine you lose Adrenaline when you get hitThat would be a pretty suck kitten situation on berserker if you ask me !!

Maybe ... but what does that have to do with anything? Trying to make more irrelevant comparisons between Necro and Warrior again?

Listen, the comparison game is irrelevant ... because Warriors are not necros. If you have a problem with necro mechanics, what are you complaining about it here for?

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@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There isn't a L2P issue if your traits simply don't work when not in berserker; that's just bare bones game mechanics. In fact, if I look at the minor traits in Reaper ... they ALL work when NOT in reaper mode AND when in it ...

Also, EVERY SINGLE Reaper trait has SOME benefit to the player EVEN when not in RS ...

.... so as you were saying???

If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated!

Is this a joke? I guess you missed the first post of the thread ... my whole argument is that berserker is design flawed ... I don't make ANY appeals to performance-based arguments. Please learn to follow along ... or if you can't, try to refrain from posting.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

Imagine you can use berserk without full adrenaline, but you get hit once and it automatically goes on cooldown without you being able to do kitten about that. One time you compare the two when it fits you, then you say the comparisons don't work here, but it's clear you just say that because it can show different things depending on what you're trying to prove. The classes, their skills, resources and playstyles are different, so you might as well stop trying to make an argument out of that. Just because you like "x resource on y class" doesn't magically make another class a "bad design". You're just saying that because you don't want to have any meaningful downside. Pop berk, but someone burns escape cooldowns? w/e, turn off the berk and wait for him to come back (or keep chasing him to pop berk again in case you catch him because you're a warrior with kitten of mobility). Good design, ok.

Right ... you can imagine lots of things. I don't have to imagine what a travesty Berserker design currently is though. Lots of people like to miss the point which is making comparisons to other classes to say why berserker is good or not is irrelevant. Berserker is deficient without looking at anything but itself.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There isn't a L2P issue if your traits simply don't work when not in berserker; that's just bare bones game mechanics. In fact, if I look at the minor traits in Reaper ... they ALL work when NOT in reaper mode AND when in it ...

Also, EVERY SINGLE Reaper trait has SOME benefit to the player EVEN when not in RS ...

.... so as you were saying???

If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated!

Is this a joke? I guess you missed the first post of the thread ... my whole argument is that berserker is design flawed ... I don't make ANY appeals to performance-based arguments. Please learn to follow along ... or if you can't, try to refrain from posting.

I wasn't referencing your first post i was referencing the comparison you had just made between warrior traits and reaper traits, clearly you've taken issue with my pointing out the double standard.

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@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There isn't a L2P issue if your traits simply don't work when not in berserker; that's just bare bones game mechanics. In fact, if I look at the minor traits in Reaper ... they ALL work when NOT in reaper mode AND when in it ...

Also, EVERY SINGLE Reaper trait has SOME benefit to the player EVEN when not in RS ...

.... so as you were saying???

If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated!

Is this a joke? I guess you missed the first post of the thread ... my whole argument is that berserker is design flawed ... I don't make ANY appeals to performance-based arguments. Please learn to follow along ... or if you can't, try to refrain from posting.

I wasn't referencing your first post i was referencing the comparison you had just made between warrior traits and reaper traits, clearly you've taken issue with my pointing out the double standard.

I know ... which was actually me taking the piss out of someone ... way to follow along. I wasn't using that comparison to justify any except the fact it's stupid to make the comparisons in the first place. So ... no double standard here. Me just demonstrating the irrelevance of class comparisons AGAIN and you ironically backing me up with my sig. Thanks.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

Imagine you can use berserk without full adrenaline, but you get hit once and it automatically goes on cooldown without you being able to do kitten about that. One time you compare the two when it fits you, then you say the comparisons don't work here, but it's clear you just say that because it can show different things depending on what you're trying to prove. The classes, their skills, resources and playstyles are different, so you might as well stop trying to make an argument out of that. Just because you like "x resource on y class" doesn't magically make another class a "bad design". You're just saying that because you don't want to have any meaningful downside. Pop berk, but someone burns escape cooldowns? w/e, turn off the berk and wait for him to come back (or keep chasing him to pop berk again in case you catch him because you're a warrior with kitten of mobility). Good design, ok.

Well alright then, lets go with your logic here and apply it elsewhere. The premise of having "meaningful downsides" on Elite Specs.

Judging by your forum avatar I am going to assume you play thief as a main, correct me if I'm wrong but I will go forward with that assumption for now.

Yes, me setting up an avatar on the forum x years ago because it was the class I've started to play with means that I play solely that one class and it's inevitably "my main". I love every single time someone tries to use a forum avatar as an argument.

Between Core Thief, Daredevil and Deadeye...

What are the downsides to swapping to Daredevil? You gain an extra dodge, arguably more damage, a variety of dodge "styles" (dash, bound, spin). Downside? 600 range Steal...? Steal still works the same and you still have your teleports and other mobility which is probably made better with Daredevil.

What are the downsides to swapping to Deadeye? You gain perma stealth, 1200 to 1500 range rifle attacks, more damage, a "ranged" steal. Downside? Squishier...? You don't really lose your mobility, stealth is arguably one of the best "defenses" in this game aside from invulns.

Yes, deadeye and daredevil are direct upgrades to the core thief and that's why the meta pvp thief builds are consistently made of base thief specs. Got me! :/It's also pretty funny you bring up deadeye seeing how OP complains about berserkers minor traits, you can read up on that one too.Actually just go play the class and let me know how it goes, because at this point it doesn't look like you really understand what you're talking about. If you don't want to play it, that's perfectly fine, but at least read/search around a bit before coming up with 'clever' points like that.

So maybe before you start projecting this idea of "you don't want to have any meaningful downside" just look at your own class, presumably, that you play and consider that perspective.

I mean it's pretty clear that's the case here, you trying to deflect that doesn't really change it. People claiming that having windows of opportunity or non lineary playstyle where you actually have to play around cooldowns is a "bad game design" is just laughable.

Also the only reason I even bothered to compare adrenaline to LF is because 'your side of this discussion' keeps doing it all the time. Try rereading my post you answered to alongside with the one it was responding to.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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@Obtena.7952 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

imagine you lose Adrenaline when you get hitThat would be a pretty suck kitten situation on berserker if you ask me !!

Maybe ... but what does that have to do with anything? Trying to make more irrelevant comparisons between Necro and Warrior again?

Listen, the comparison game is irrelevant ... because Warriors are not necros. If you have a problem with necro mechanics, what are you complaining about it here for?

.

@Obtena.7952 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

Imagine you can use berserk without full adrenaline, but you get hit once and it automatically goes on cooldown without you being able to do kitten about that. One time you compare the two when it fits you, then you say the comparisons don't work here, but it's clear you just say that because it can show different things depending on what you're trying to prove. The classes, their skills, resources and playstyles are different, so you might as well stop trying to make an argument out of that. Just because you like "x resource on y class" doesn't magically make another class a "bad design". You're just saying that because you don't want to have any meaningful downside. Pop berk, but someone burns escape cooldowns? w/e, turn off the berk and wait for him to come back (or keep chasing him to pop berk again in case you catch him because you're a warrior with kitten of mobility). Good design, ok.

Right ... you can imagine lots of things. I don't have to imagine what a travesty Berserker design currently is though. Lots of people like to miss the point which is making comparisons to other classes to say why berserker is good or not is irrelevant. Berserker is deficient without looking at anything but itself.

Holy kitten, you're literally THE person that tried to justify what you're saying based on the comparisons to other classes but the moment someone shows you it's easy to abuse ""arguments"" like that, you change the stance to "comparisons are irrelevant". Don't be a hypocrite.

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KryTiKaL.3125

KryTiKaL.3125

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@Sobx.1758 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

Imagine you can use berserk without full adrenaline, but you get hit once and it automatically goes on cooldown without you being able to do kitten about that. One time you compare the two when it fits you, then you say the comparisons don't work here, but it's clear you just say that because it can show different things depending on what you're trying to prove. The classes, their skills, resources and playstyles are different, so you might as well stop trying to make an argument out of that. Just because you like "x resource on y class" doesn't magically make another class a "bad design". You're just saying that because you don't want to have any meaningful downside. Pop berk, but someone burns escape cooldowns? w/e, turn off the berk and wait for him to come back (or keep chasing him to pop berk again in case you catch him because you're a warrior with kitten of mobility). Good design, ok.

Well alright then, lets go with your logic here and apply it elsewhere. The premise of having "meaningful downsides" on Elite Specs.

Judging by your forum avatar I am going to assume you play thief as a main, correct me if I'm wrong but I will go forward with that assumption for now.

Yes, me setting up an avatar on the forum x years ago because it was the class I've started to play with means that I play solely that one class and it's inevitably "my main". I love every single time someone tries to use a forum avatar as an argument.

Between Core Thief, Daredevil and Deadeye...

What are the downsides to swapping to Daredevil? You gain an extra dodge, arguably more damage, a variety of dodge "styles" (dash, bound, spin). Downside? 600 range Steal...? Steal still works the same and you still have your teleports and other mobility which is probably made better with Daredevil.

What are the downsides to swapping to Deadeye? You gain perma stealth, 1200 to 1500 range rifle attacks, more damage, a "ranged" steal. Downside? Squishier...? You don't really lose your mobility, stealth is arguably one of the best "defenses" in this game aside from invulns.

Yes, deadeye and daredevil are direct upgrades to the core thief and that's why the meta pvp thief builds are consistently made of base thief specs. Got me! :/It's also pretty funny you bring up deadeye seeing how OP complains about berserkers minor traits, you can read up on that one too.Actually just go play the class and let me know how it goes, because at this point it doesn't look like you really understand what you're talking about. If you don't want to play it, that's perfectly fine, but at least read/search around a bit before coming up with 'clever' points like that.

So
maybe
before you start projecting this idea of
"you don't want to have any meaningful downside"
just look at your own class, presumably, that you play and consider that perspective.

I mean it's pretty clear that's the case here, you trying to deflect that doesn't really change it. People claiming that having windows of opportunity or non lineary playstyle where you actually have to play around cooldowns is a "bad game design" is just laughable.

Also the only reason I even bothered to compare adrenaline to LF is because 'your side of this discussion' keeps doing it all the time. Try rereading my post you answered to alongside with the one it was responding to.

First, I did say that if I was wrong about assuming you're a thief main then correct me if I'm wrong, not respond with some snarky comment. I did that because I was trying to present a point to you from a perspective you might understand better; aka when it pertains to the class you play most.

I don't think you at all understood the point I was trying to make...

You were talking about Berserker having a "meaningful downside" to its playstyle if you choose to play it with this rework. We're not talking about meta here in that circumstance, we are just talking about general design and function and based on that approach Deadeye and Daredevil don't have a "meaningful downside" should you choose to play them. They are for all intents and purposes, design and function wise, just upgrades that don't lose out on any mechanic or other core aspect to the class. Instead they just straight gain more than they lose.

No one is claiming that Berserker should have "no windows of opportunity" to attack them or that people shouldn't be able to play around the cooldowns of Berserker. The issue here is that this rework has been horrifically executed and the design is purely thematic with function being left as a secondary thought. Legitimately the only positive thing with this rework is Arc Divider and its damage and from a PvP perspective that isn't sustainable in the long term as it will inevitably be nerfed, similar to how Gunflame was nerfed back in the initial HoT release when it was almost literally wiping groups of people in WvW because it was AoE damage and pierced targets.

You have been approaching this from a standpoint of thinking that people who have a problem with the rework just want it to be OP, thats nowhere near the truth. This is a rework people have been waiting and asking for since the Pre-PoF balance patch that nerfed Berserker into obscurity and meme territory. People are not happy with these changes and it has nothing to do with it not being "OP" but more to do with that functionally its horrible.

Please refrain from behaving like some snarky af teenager, regardless of your like or dislike of certain people's perspectives you should at least try to discuss things properly rather than run around with that attitude. It helps nothing and its why I have had difficulty in taking you seriously.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@"Sobx.1758" said:Holy kitten, you're literally THE person that tried to justify what you're saying based on the comparisons to other classes but the moment someone shows you it's easy to abuse ""arguments"" like that, you change the stance to "comparisons are irrelevant". Don't be a hypocrite.

Um, no ... you need to learn to follow the conversation. I've ALWAYS held the position that comparisons between classes are irrelevant and my 'comparison' was being done to illustrate the ridiculous idea of making such comparisons to the person I was replying to. Your lack of understanding is not me being a hypocrite.

What I especially like about your posts is that you accused me of not explaining what I dislike about the changes even though I'm the author of the opening post that gives three reasons why I don't like it. Even after pointing that out to you, you still didn't address any of those points and proceed to badger me ... so basically you got nothing.

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DragonFury.6243

DragonFury.6243

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@Obtena.7952 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

imagine you lose Adrenaline when you get hitThat would be a pretty suck kitten situation on berserker if you ask me !!

Maybe ... but what does that have to do with anything? Trying to make more irrelevant comparisons between Necro and Warrior again?

Listen, the comparison game is irrelevant ... because Warriors are not necros. If you have a problem with necro mechanics, what are you complaining about it here for?

the point is their is no problem in the design and elite mechaniccore necro and reaper and the new berserker are the most balance build currently in the game because they have a huge offensive skills for a set duration of time and if you fail to defeat your enemy then you go kit mode (LOS ,dodge , no port spots)so in the end it is L2P issueall what you need is to balance your offensive and defensive skills do you know why dev did that because they dont want to create a brain dead DPS builds

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Mesket.5728

Mesket.5728

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@DragonFury.6243 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

imagine you lose Adrenaline when you get hitThat would be a pretty suck kitten situation on berserker if you ask me !!

Maybe ... but what does that have to do with anything? Trying to make more irrelevant comparisons between Necro and Warrior again?

Listen, the comparison game is irrelevant ... because Warriors are not necros. If you have a problem with necro mechanics, what are you complaining about it here for?

the point is their is no problem in the design and elite mechaniccore necro and reaper and the new berserker are the most balance build currently in the game because they have a huge offensive skills for a set duration of time and if you fail to defeat your enemy then you go kit mode (LOS ,dodge , no port spots)so in the end it is L2P issueall what you need is to balance your offensive and defensive skills do you know why dev did that because they dont want to create a brain dead DPS builds

Yes, there is a terrible problem with design and you fail to acknowledge it because you are probably just seeing from a PVP perspective and that is just a small part of the game. If you are roaming maps, doing events, killing world bosses, following meta events, whatever you want to do that is not pvp you are fighting constantly and with many small breaks from mob to mob and this class just became ridiculously boring to play because you are just 2/3 of your character repeatedly for 12 seconds. Rage skills adds a few seconds and it is not enough and you shouldn't be forced to take any particular thing just to make it work; this is not a MOBA, metabuilds are fine and sometimes fun but it is not what define how to play. The class should consistently work or be fixed. I don't get why some have such a hard time figuring this simple thing. It's not a cooldown on a skill; its a cooldown on a whole 1/3 of your character. Don't compare it to Necros who can turn with 10% of their bar and doesn't decay over time and it also works as a second HP. Necros use their mechanic much more often and it serves many other purposes than a simple buff to stats. And for Rangers or Engies, none of them gets their class mechanic removed while not in their special mod.

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cryorion.9532

cryorion.9532

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Ironically, using 15 sec Berserk is what seems to work best in most situations. The only situation where you want to prolong Berserk as long as possible without affecting DPS that much, is when fighting high HP enemies (raid bosses, etc) and when playing condi berserker. Even then, so far the build with shortest Berserk duration yelds highest DPS. That is not very good design.

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DragonFury.6243

DragonFury.6243

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@Mesket.5728 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

imagine you lose Adrenaline when you get hitThat would be a pretty suck kitten situation on berserker if you ask me !!

Maybe ... but what does that have to do with anything? Trying to make more irrelevant comparisons between Necro and Warrior again?

Listen, the comparison game is irrelevant ... because Warriors are not necros. If you have a problem with necro mechanics, what are you complaining about it here for?

the point is their is no problem in the design and elite mechaniccore necro and reaper and the new berserker are the most balance build currently in the game because they have a huge offensive skills for a set duration of time and if you fail to defeat your enemy then you go kit mode (LOS ,dodge , no port spots)so in the end it is L2P issueall what you need is to balance your offensive and defensive skills do you know why dev did that because they dont want to create a brain dead DPS builds

Yes, there is a terrible problem with design and you fail to acknowledge it because you are probably just seeing from a PVP perspective and that is just a small part of the game. If you are roaming maps, doing events, killing world bosses, following meta events, whatever you want to do that is not pvp you are fighting constantly and with many small breaks from mob to mob and this class just became ridiculously boring to play because you are just 2/3 of your character repeatedly for 12 seconds. Rage skills adds a few seconds and it is not enough and you shouldn't be forced to take any particular thing just to make it work; this is not a MOBA, metabuilds are fine and sometimes fun but it is not what define how to play. The class should consistently work or be fixed. I don't get why some have such a hard time figuring this simple thing. It's not a cooldown on a skill; its a cooldown on a whole 1/3 of your character. Don't compare it to Necros who can turn with 10% of their bar and doesn't decay over time and it also works as a second HP. Necros use their mechanic much more often and it serves many other purposes than a simple buff to stats. And for Rangers or Engies, none of them gets their class mechanic removed while not in their special mod.

WELLif we both agree that in PvP and WvW no buf or nerf are neededand if you want CD reduction in PvE only then yesthis can help alotin fact i love when Anet buff build and elite only in PvE not WvW or PvP because we have a terrible problem called powercreephow ever

Necros who can turn with 10% of their bar and doesn't decay over timeare you sure they dont have any decay!! and do you know that 10% LF give less than 2 second of shroud?what can you do in 2 second window and all skill have 0.5 second cast time?!

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@DragonFury.6243 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

imagine you lose Adrenaline when you get hitThat would be a pretty suck kitten situation on berserker if you ask me !!

Maybe ... but what does that have to do with anything? Trying to make more irrelevant comparisons between Necro and Warrior again?

Listen, the comparison game is irrelevant ... because Warriors are not necros. If you have a problem with necro mechanics, what are you complaining about it here for?

the point is their is no problem in the design and elite mechanic

I've given three reasons I think it fails .. . and you addressed NONE of those points ... though you think continually quoting me what necro does is some proof it's OK even though its a completely different class with a completely different concept and mechanic. I guess not only berserker design is a fail ... so are your attempts to prove it's OK.

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KhainPride.3987

KhainPride.3987

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@shadowpass.4236 said:I don't understand why so many people are disappointed with the berserker changes.

After a few hours of quing + 1v1s, the spec seems incredibly strong.

  1. I'm consistently doing 30-40% of my team's damage and healing per match.
  2. I can facetank 2-3 people with the amount of stunbreaks/raw stats/stability warrior has access to.
  3. The new gs f1 is completely shredding through everyone's health.
  4. I can essentially run at someone nonstop while attacking.

lmao, i went to pvp after 2 years. I went into that arena(free for all) in heart of mists.

I just realized how nerfed it is compared to wvw/pve. (like defy pain/last stand cool downs).

I put on berserker amulet, scholar rune. my normal spec in wvw..no matter gvg/wvw open/blobfest.

Without defy pain/last stand, I last so long and easily in PVP. I was in the free for all, for perhaps 4~ hours or longer.Its like, you dont even need defense traitline anymore in Pvp.The balance must be strong.

In Wvw, its a different situation. I do less damage overall and only the GS skill burst does the damage. When im not in berserker mode, I am doing way less damage than before the patch.

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Sobx.1758

Sobx.1758

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy kitten.

its basic math, you end berserker, you are sittng at 30 adrenaline... you have nothing to do with it, you are generating more adrenaline,... still on cooldown; that's bad design 101 right there. The class most important resource laying there useless AND being generated for nothing, just waiting on a cooldown that shouldn't be there to begin with. This class is a big mess and they clearly have no idea what to do with it.

And regarding the meta builds and dps exhibitions, I really don't care man, numbers can go up and down but the fun factor is not a math thing, its a core design decision and they screw this one.-

You play agressive when berserk is on,you play defensive when on cd,how is this a problem if not only seen from a pve perspective ?

Hes saying that after you did your berserker shenanigans your sppecial class resource (adrenalin) is completely useless while you wait for the berserker cd to tick down.

Its not about how you play in and after berserk mode, its about how the design is a failure, when you cant do kitten with the class exclusive resource.

"design is a failure"reaper have the close design as berserker all your LF wont help while waiting for CD to end your best skill is in shroud and in necro case you cant even use your utility and cant be healed while in shroud

to enter your special form reaper is better than berserker because longer CD and you dont need max LFafter entering your special form berserker is better than reaper because you can access you utility and can be healed and taking damage wont force you to leave bersekerin case of defense both suffer a lotwhy you say because you dont want to "design" broken elite

the last patch introduce trad off and this is how trad off work if you want the all 3 tiers burst skill play core if you want only 3 tier burst play berserker if you want 1 tier burst play SB

and before you say what about holo and chrono and x elite well Anet did mention them and they ll have a trad off all what we can hope is not a trad off like the rev one and if that the case well berserker need a buff and many elites

Berserker as a espec is deficient for a much more complex reason than what you are talking about here. Your comparisons to reaper are irrelevant to this discussion, primarily because LF does not behave like Adrenaline and F1 on necro is not an attack whereas F1 is on warrior. Your attempts to demonstrate berserker is 'fine' through your comparisons do not make sense.

Since you love comparing so much though ... Imagine your LF on reaper decayed out of combat and you couldn't use it until it was full. That would be a pretty suck kitten situation on Reaper if you ask me ... but you didn't think of that now did you?

Imagine you can use berserk without full adrenaline, but you get hit once and it automatically goes on cooldown without you being able to do kitten about that. One time you compare the two when it fits you, then you say the comparisons don't work here, but it's clear you just say that because it can show different things depending on what you're trying to prove. The classes, their skills, resources and playstyles are different, so you might as well stop trying to make an argument out of that. Just because you like "x resource on y class" doesn't magically make another class a "bad design". You're just saying that because you don't want to have any meaningful downside. Pop berk, but someone burns escape cooldowns? w/e, turn off the berk and wait for him to come back (or keep chasing him to pop berk again in case you catch him because you're a warrior with kitten of mobility). Good design, ok.

Well alright then, lets go with your logic here and apply it elsewhere. The premise of having "meaningful downsides" on Elite Specs.

Judging by your forum avatar I am going to assume you play thief as a main, correct me if I'm wrong but I will go forward with that assumption for now.

Yes, me setting up an avatar on the forum x years ago because it was the class I've started to play with means that I play solely that one class and it's inevitably "my main". I love every single time someone tries to use a forum avatar as an argument.

Between Core Thief, Daredevil and Deadeye...

What are the downsides to swapping to Daredevil? You gain an extra dodge, arguably more damage, a variety of dodge "styles" (dash, bound, spin). Downside? 600 range Steal...? Steal still works the same and you still have your teleports and other mobility which is probably made better with Daredevil.

What are the downsides to swapping to Deadeye? You gain perma stealth, 1200 to 1500 range rifle attacks, more damage, a "ranged" steal. Downside? Squishier...? You don't really lose your mobility, stealth is arguably one of the best "defenses" in this game aside from invulns.

Yes, deadeye and daredevil are direct upgrades to the core thief and that's why the meta pvp thief builds are consistently made of base thief specs. Got me! :/It's also pretty funny you bring up deadeye seeing how OP complains about berserkers minor traits, you can read up on that one too.Actually just go play the class and let me know how it goes, because at this point it doesn't look like you really understand what you're talking about. If you don't want to play it, that's perfectly fine, but at least read/search around a bit before coming up with 'clever' points like that.

So
maybe
before you start projecting this idea of
"you don't want to have any meaningful downside"
just look at your own class, presumably, that you play and consider that perspective.

I mean it's pretty clear that's the case here, you trying to deflect that doesn't really change it. People claiming that having windows of opportunity or non lineary playstyle where you actually have to play around cooldowns is a "bad game design" is just laughable.

Also the only reason I even bothered to compare adrenaline to LF is because 'your side of this discussion' keeps doing it all the time. Try rereading my post you answered to alongside with the one it was responding to.

First, I
did
say that if I was
wrong
about assuming you're a thief main then correct me if I'm wrong, not respond with some snarky comment. I did that because I was trying to present a point to you from a perspective you might understand better; aka when it pertains to the class you play most.

Oh, ok, so your comment wasn't "snarky" because you said "correct me if I'm wrong", my bad. I should have said "Actually just go play the class and let me know how it goes, because at this point it doesn't look like you really understand what you're talking about, but correct me if I'm wrong" and then we're equal right?. Stop pretending that bringing up a class based on my forum avatar doesn't imply that you need to "show me an example on that particular class, beacuse I don't understand berserker", because we both know that's what it implies whether if was your goal or not (because I'm not saying it was your goal, but it's easly interpreted like that).

I don't think you at all understood the point I was trying to make...

That is possible. But mostly because what you wrote was incorrect.

You were talking about Berserker having a "meaningful downside" to its playstyle if you choose to play it with this rework. We're not talking about meta here in that circumstance, we are just talking about general design and function and based on that approach Deadeye and Daredevil don't have a "meaningful downside" should you choose to play them. They are for all intents and purposes, design and function wise, just upgrades that don't lose out on any mechanic or other core aspect to the class. Instead they just straight gain more than they lose.

No, we're not directly talking about meta, but it's a decent indication to show what's best/easiest/most efficient to use. You saying that DD and DE don't have any trade-offs/downsides inmplies they take thief gameplay and build on top of it making it direct upgrades over core thief. Isn't that what you've tried to say? (yes, you did. You also repeated it right now) The point here is that it's simply wrong. So I'd say I did understand what you said or tried to say. It's just incorrect.If they gained more than they lost like you try to claim, they'd easly push the core thief out of the meta, but they didn't and still don't. DD got a small slap on the hand on top of the previous nerfs, because it doesn't need to be kittened over even more than it already got. Hence, as I said, you don't understand what you're talking about and as a result your comparison is just bad. IMO, obviously. Correct me if I'm wrong in what I just said.

No one is claiming that Berserker should have "no windows of opportunity" to attack them or that people shouldn't be able to play around the cooldowns of Berserker. The issue here is that this rework has been horrifically executed and the design is purely thematic with function being left as a secondary thought. Legitimately the only positive thing with this rework is Arc Divider and its damage and from a PvP perspective that isn't sustainable in the long term as it will inevitably be nerfed, similar to how Gunflame was nerfed back in the initial HoT release when it was almost literally wiping groups of people in WvW because it was AoE damage and pierced targets.

Noone? OP literally comaplains about traits not working in the berk mode (which makes berk mode stronger, which pushes the idea of 'windows of opportunity', s/he wants them to work out of the stance too, I wonder why?). OP's second point expands on the minor trait complaint while also directly complaining about the window of opportunity -s/he just didn't call it like that, but I hope we can understand what it means. Second point talks about:"if I'm going to spend 30 adrenaline on a high risk attack, there should always be some kind of meaningful result to the player. ", so basically "even if I fuck up, I want to be rewarded for it". I know the author of this thread claims s/he wants trade-offs, windows of opportunities and downtimes to play around in answers to some of the posts, but that's not really what the first post says. The first post aims and getting rid of windows of oppotunities, power swings and getting punished for misplays or getting counterplayed. At least that's how I understand it.Another post just says:

If I had to change Berserker I would give them a permanently full adrenaline bar, but once it's activated we lose adrenaline per second even while in combat. Berserk stays active as long as we have adrenaline, using a burst skill gives a flat increase in duration because it would otherwise turn it off.

Basically "I can use berserker until I kill you, you kill me or one of us runs away", windows of opportunity my ass.

The problem is when you aren't in berserker mode, it's like playing a crippled warrior; the main issues aren't about performance, it's about feel and play.

OP doesn't like getting additional crap in berk mode, because when you're out of it it feels like weaker warrior. So basically, berk should feel like core warrior with possibility of getting more dmg for free, because "it would feel better". Then s/he will tell us s/he totally wants the trade-offs. From what I see, that's not true, but maybe I can't read.

when not in berserker mode it just feels completely inferior to core and spbits not fun. and easily outplayed, just kite when warrior enters berserk, and then watch him struggle to apply ANY meaningful dmg.

Another post by someone else that basically reads "I want a core warrior with possiblity of entering berk mode", right?

I'd argue that people in this thread like to claim they want trade-offs and windows of opportunity, but from what I saw in this thread (above quotes are from first 13 posts, too lazy to screen the rest of them, but you can easly find more of crap like this, pretty sure you've read them all, so maybe you just didn't care about what they were saying) all they want is a core warrrior with addition of berk stance for free additional burst dmg that deletes any nearby squish.Keeping up with the thief comparison, thiefs should cry about having to use one resource to charge another reasource to use their burst skill on DE too. And hey, they can use it only on one person that they mark once per 25s unless they clutter their utility bar with a skill that resets it with a 30s cd. Bad design! Direct upgrade!

I'm honestly getting tired of this "discussion", pretty sure we can keep repeating same kitten for the next 5 pages and none of us will change their views. Keep pretending people in this thread want windows of opportunity and downtimes. Maybe you do (I don't even remember which posts were yours anymore), but it's clear they don't.

Please refrain from behaving like some snarky af teenager, regardless of your like or dislike of certain people's perspectives you should at least try to discuss things properly rather than run around with that attitude. It helps nothing and its why I have had difficulty in taking you seriously.

Hopefully the answer to the first quote in this post explains why I think you're full of carp on this one. I'd say I was just a little more direct in my post, but you do you.

edit: well, kitten, a wall of text. But there's no "tl;dr" :p

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KryTiKaL.3125

KryTiKaL.3125

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@"Sobx.1758" said:Oh, ok, so your comment wasn't "snarky" because you said "correct me if I'm wrong", my bad. I should have said "Actually just go play the class and let me know how it goes, because at this point it doesn't look like you really understand what you're talking about, but correct me if I'm wrong" and then we're equal right?. Stop pretending that bringing up a class based on my forum avatar doesn't imply that you need to "show me an example on that particular class, beacuse I don't understand berserker", because we both know that's what it implies whether if was your goal or not (because I'm not saying it was your goal, but it's easly interpreted like that).

No, it wasn't snarky. It was genuinely "If I am wrong yes correct me and I am fine with that" you assumed I was being sarcastic and snarky about it or being combative...I wasn't. I am pretending about nothing, I was legitimately just trying to relate something to you based on the possibility of your own personal experiences to maybe approach the discussion from a different angle. I'm not trying to attack you, you're assuming I am and thats why its "easily interpreted" in the way you're describing.

No, we're not directly talking about meta, but it's a decent indication to show what's best/easiest/most efficient to use. You saying that DD and DE don't have any trade-offs/downsides inmplies they take thief gameplay and build on top of it making it direct upgrades over core thief. Isn't that what you've tried to say? (yes, you did. You also repeated it right now) The point here is that it's simply wrong. So I'd say I did understand what you said or tried to say. It's just incorrect.If they gained more than they lost like you try to claim, they'd easly push the core thief out of the meta, but they didn't and still don't. DD got a small slap on the hand on top of the previous nerfs, because it doesn't need to be kittened over even more than it already got. Hence, as I said, you don't understand what you're talking about and as a result your comparison is just bad. IMO, obviously. Correct me if I'm wrong in what I just said.

Right, meta is a decent indication of what can be best/easiest/most efficient thing to use, META does stand for "Most Effective Tactic Available" after all, however it doesn't account for general function of a class. Druid isn't exactly meta yet still functions well in terms of gameplay, Daredevil and Deadeye, as per my previous example, aren't meta but still they function well in terms of gameplay. Functionally these other elite specs haven't "lost" anything, meta or not, but instead they simply have their Core mechanic built upon which is what literally every other Elite Spec does in this game and what Berserker did before this rework. However you're talking about this from, presumably, sPvP meta which is its own disastrous disaster and doesn't really have all that much room for build diversity which is directly what you're talking about. Core thief not having been pushed out of meta by either of its Elite Specs is primarily because of that inability for sPvP to allow for much flexibility; "Structured" is right in the name.

The point of using them in that comparison, or in that example, is that they don't have "direct downsides" other than "Oh they just don't work 'as well' in sPvP meta" which isn't wrong for sure, but there are entire other problems that contribute to that and it mostly derives from sPvP and how Conquest as a game mode works, but we won't get into that here.

Noone? OP literally comaplains about traits not working in the berk mode (which makes berk mode stronger, which pushes the idea of 'windows of opportunity', s/he wants them to work out of the stance too, I wonder why?). OP's second point expands on the minor trait complaint while also directly complaining about the window of opportunity -s/he just didn't call it like that, but I hope we can understand what it means. Second point talks about:"if I'm going to spend 30 adrenaline on a high risk attack, there should always be some kind of meaningful result to the player. ", so basically "even if I kitten up, I want to be rewarded for it". I know the author of this thread claims s/he wants trade-offs, windows of opportunities and downtimes to play around in answers to some of the posts, but that's not really what the first post says. The first post aims and getting rid of windows of oppotunities, power swings and getting punished for misplays or getting counterplayed. At least that's how I understand it.

True, and I apologize for wording that inaccurately especially because they definitely don't specifically detail what I personally imagine they mean is the problem. I think their intention in pointing out those traits not working outside of Berserk Mode is that maybe traits that apply effects specifically to Berserk Mode should be choosable as Adept, Master and Grandmaster traits and the Minor traits should be different so that they can function outside of Berserk mode. I think we can all agree that Fatal Frenzy working outside of Berserk Mode would be a little bit much. 300 extra power just for selecting the spec, yeah I can agree thats not needed. Really right now the only Elite Spec for Warrior that really "rewards" you, or for that matter doesn't suffer as much for this as other specs, is Spellbreaker still getting Adrenal Health stacks even if Full Counter is evaded or doesn't hit anything. Which I also as a "warrior main" do not like about it. Feels cheap.

As things stand already, there are already plenty of windows of opportunity to attack and kill a Warrior. Telegraphed Bursts and Passives that good players intentionally proc to deny you their effects so they can put better pressure, trust me the class isn't lacking in moments that it can be baited out and killed, especially when its sustain is gated behind hitting with class skills that Berserker now doesn't get access to. No one is asking for a removal of these windows, its just that Warrior already has them and doesn't need to be given more and Berserker now doesn't help things because it feels and functions pretty poorly. The only saving grace it has right now? Arc Divider, which I highly doubt will last much longer in its current state in terms of damage. Once it inevitably gets hammered with a nerf then that'll probably be it for Berserker.

I'd argue that people in this thread like to claim they want trade-offs and windows of opportunity, but from what I saw in this thread (above quotes are from first 13 posts, too lazy to screen the rest of them, but you can easly find more of kitten like this, pretty sure you've read them all, so maybe you just didn't care about what they were saying) all they want is a core warrrior with addition of berk stance for free additional burst dmg that deletes any nearby squish.Keeping up with the thief comparison, thiefs should cry about having to use one resource to charge another reasource to use their burst skill on DE too. And hey, they can use it only on one person that they mark once per 25s unless they clutter their utility bar with a skill that resets it with a 30s cd. Bad design! Direct upgrade!

Like I said above already, Warrior already does have trade-off and windows of opportunity. Kind of just how the class plays...when an actual good player just dodges Eviscerate because its a very telegraphed leap, or when they dodge Arcing Slice because it is also very telegraphed. The way you have to play to avoid that, which I am fine with mind you and I play Warrior because of this playstyle, is baiting and landing certain skills during windows when CDs are down or during animations that a player might be locked into when using a skill.

In regards to the thief comparison, Deadeye still doesn't "lose" anything in regards to that, though. Sure its less than useful in sPvP because permastealth doesn't exactly help contest a point to keep it from flipping to the enemy and stealth is the Deadeye's main defense. I'll just repeat what I said above;

The point of using them in that comparison, or in that example, is that they don't have "direct downsides" other than "Oh they just don't work 'as well' in sPvP meta" which isn't wrong for sure, but there are entire other problems that contribute to that and it mostly derives from sPvP and how Conquest as a game mode works, but we won't get into that here.

And for this lil tidbit...

Hopefully the answer to the first quote in this post explains why I think you're full of carp on this one. I'd say I was just a little more direct in my post, but you do you.

I think the problem here is that you're being particularly hostile and making the assumption that I've been trying to attack you, pretty evident by how you believed me saying "correct me if I'm wrong" as some form of...snarky, sarcastic jab at you. It wasn't. At all. Normal people say that in normal discussion if they feel they are about to state or imply something that someone would feel is incorrect and its basically an invitation of "If this is incorrect then correct me so we can proceed appropriately in this discussion". Which you took as a snarky, sarcastic jab since you've been viewing this entire discussion as taking personal attacks at people, which sure...there have been some insults thrown and I will admit to having made a few snarky comments as well in particular to you, so I apologize for that.

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Shadowcat.2680

Shadowcat.2680

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@"Sobx.1758" said:Also your complaint about "minor traits" is pretty wierd to me. When you pick berk e-spec, it's directly tied to playing berserker and using its mechanic, which is why the minor traits are connected to it. It's not really anything out of ordinary and I'm not sure how (in your opening post) you went from "meaningful choices" to "minor traits being related to espec mechanic is bad". That just doesn't seem like a valid point to me. (and you still get the benefits of 'always angry' while not in berk)

Always Angry was removed in the rework. As to the new berserker minors, it's flawed design to have them wed entirely to berserk mode coupled with a mode cooldown the user cannot initiate. Worse still, the mode's activation requires a class resource that has zero function when the mode is on cooldown.

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