The better spin-to-win?

[Noha.3749]

Howdy fellas!

Now we all have been either suffering or enjoying the arc divider FOTM.

But what about Soul Spiral Reapers?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arc_Dividervshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Spiral

For what reason is Zerkers in a better position than Reapers in blobs?

Pure dmg? A Reaper can output decent ranged dmg and should beat the Zerker in the melee train even if the Zerker dumps 2 ADs while the reaper probably only gets off a single Spiral.

Arc Divider scaling: Damage (3x): 423 (1.05)Soul Spiral scaling: Damage (12x): 1,272 (4.8)

Reaper:

• Should in theory be more dmg, also Reaper AA is savage with better range.
• Doesnt need to pop a bunch utilities to enter kamehameha-mode
• Range pressure
• Got room to fill in 1-2 utilities to fit the fight ahead (not... too gamechanging though)
• Can build a bit tankier due to shroud critchance amplifiers.

Zerker:

• Better mobility
• Better defence (endure pain, situationally a shield, GS#3 invuln.
• The damage kicks in a bit faster with ADs than Soul Spiral

Tell me what your opinion is on the matter!?(Im just desperately trying to find more FUN niché builds)

Best regards <3

[cgMatt.5162]

Just run Arms and this is guaranteed to crit.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burst_Precision

[RisenHowl.2419]

Zerker offers very little over reaper imo

Reaper has a better critical rate, better power coefficients, and better access to unblockable to make both count.

It is much harder to play a glass reaper though than a Zerker since you lose the invulns

[Noha.3749]

Looking at it an extra time in the builder:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAR3enckC9dgdeAehAEliliA7d4mcfuKdhWXWwYA8ACAA-jFBXgAh6GA2fU+1r+zjSwAAHAO/8zP/8zjUARsMC-w <- Zerker http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAndRnMbCt0gVbC22A0bilcBjqM8GaWxTxs4YEKA0AWBA-jFBXgA9q/As/o87RJYo+gAAIAuZASBExyI-w <-Reaper

Zerker do get more flat power in super-sayan mode, whilst Reapers easily achieves 100% critchance and quickness in reaper.

So if just counting the SPINS i think that the Zerker actually beats the Reaper, but throwing in the filler attacks (any other reaper skill) i think a Reaper beats the Zerker.

TLDR;

My conclussion:

Zerker has a better spike (dmg over ~2-5seconds), but Reaper should beat the Zerker in fights where meleeblobs are in contact longer than 2-5sec due to brutal filler skills in reaper/GS/Axe3/Well of suffering.

Zerkers Arc Divider is amplified with ~50-60%% increase in dmg whilst Reaper got 100%critchance, unblockable + quickness.

All in all i think Reapers should be about as welcome to a zerg as Zerkers are. Not relying on a single spell to deal damage compared to Zerkers and got better sustained damage in melee and comes relatively close with its meleeburst.

[floppypuppy.5789]

Hello retal my old friend

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

As someone who plays both E-Specs. I find Arc Divider more powerful, but Soul Spiral is great, and is better if you run hybrid dps stats. Warrior does have easy unblockable access in Signet of Might, which has 0 cast time and provides a large amount of might. If you take @cgMatt.5162 's suggestion and go Arms for Burst Precision, then if you spec Signet Mastery you will get several procs of Signet of Might during a prolonged fight for more unblockable access.

[daydreamer.3092]

zerker is better when you want to burst down a single target because you can follow/cc/stomp better. ( i do use rampage sometimes to stomp inside the enemy zerg). A good reaper will do more overall damage for sure but has to retreat more often when trying to finish.

zerkes has advantages when you want to rez your teammates too

[Shroud.2307]

A lot less risk involved playing Warrior. Assuming you're going fully offensive and have support from your zerg, you can push pretty deep.

As a Reaper, it's more about holding the midline and cleaving out the downed or pressuring low health targets.

Reaper has more consistent damage pressure but is also a lot more difficult to survive with if you're inexperienced.

[Dawdler.8521]

Since meta commanders kick both reapers and berserkers, I cant say I've noticed the effect of either.

[MedievalThings.5417]

Zerker has the armor, health regen and passive defenses that reaper just doesn't, that's why they are better in blobs.Reaper can be deadly if they get the jump on you, but lacks the mobility and defenses (active and passive) the zerker has. Shroud is nice with the extra health and bonuses, but the power creep makes it so in zerg fights you can easily be popped out of it in under a second, even dodging perfectly. The thing reaper is good at is boon strip, but scourge is gonna be better in zerg fights, hence the meta. And chill really isn't a factor, because the enemy zerg cleanses non-stop.

Where reaper shines is in small groups and solo fights. Zerker is also good in small groups and solo. The 25% nerf to arc divider may be a little too much, maybe they could add 5% of that back on. I main reaper and a lot of the builds people avoid, like boonbeast, holo and weaver, I jump in because they are reliant on their boons to carry the fight. And most of my damage is removing the boons. I tend to avoid engaging spellbreakers and zerkers because unless they are poorly played, it's too hard to get through the defenses. If I could strip adrenal health, that would be a different story. Spellbreaker I tend to hit full counter and zerker just CC's me to death. And, that's with stunbreak on shroud, spectral armor and spectral walk. Dodging arc divider is pretty easy, even for a slower class like necro, but zerker has too many knockdowns and stuns to make it worth the time.

[Nox.6785]

If your Soul Spiral is hitting for almost as much as you Arc Divider you're running the wrong Zerker build, also, dont take Arms for the guaranteed crit, not worth it when you can build 92-95% crit in easily just with gear and runes.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

golem best spin2win

[Cyninja.2954]

You answered your own question:

@Noha.3749 said:Zerker:

• Better mobility
• Better defence (endure pain, situationally a shield, GS#3 invuln.
• The damage kicks in a bit faster with ADs than Soul Spiral

now add in hammer stuns and utility denial from break enchantments and wind of disenchantment, and you'll know why Zerker has a spot in blob fights and reaper doesn't.

WvW fights are not about only damage. Damage is almost insignificant considering that anything will melt under the blob bomb. The entire game mode revolves around sustain, movement, positioning, utility and utility denial. Warrior does all of those things and some of them really well. Reaper does almost none of those things and some of them really bad.

[Noha.3749]

@Cyninja.2954 said:You answered your own question:

@"Noha.3749" said:Zerker:

• Better mobility
• Better defence
  (endure pain, situationally a shield, GS#3 invuln.
• The damage kicks in a bit faster with ADs than Soul Spiral

now add in hammer stuns and utility denial from break enchantments and wind of disenchantment, and you'll know why Zerker has a spot in blob fights and reaper doesn't.

WvW fights are not about only damage. Damage is almost insignificant considering that anything will melt under the blob bomb. The entire game mode revolves around sustain, movement, positioning, utility and utility denial. Warrior does all of those things and some of them really well. Reaper does almost none of those things and some of them really bad.

A zerker doesnt boonrip or bring bubbles, it spins?

If we just do a quick bit of below avrage but good enough math;

A reaper only spending its time ONLY autoattacking in the melee push would with no might or other fun boons/amplifiers except crit, hit for about, ~ 3000 dmg per swing which isnt fancy by itself.But now add in that the reaper dumps 4 of those swings per second due to quickness, hitting 3 targets with each swing for 5 seconds (which really isnt unrealistic)thats 3000 x 3 = 9000, 9000 x 4 = 36 000, 36 000 x 5 = 180 000

So just auto attacking without counting any might/vulnerability/dmg amplifiers(except 100%crit=easily achievable) would deliver about 180 000 melee cleave dmg in 5 seconds. ONLY counting braindead autoattacks in reaper while running with the tag. and 3000 per swing isnt impressive, more realistically its about 4-5.5k with some might and other boons the party shares.

If i do the calculation while using the "higher value" of 5.5k dmg /swings per target, it reaches 330 000dmg over 5sec.So without being unrealistic, 180 000 shouldnt be too hard to achieve, 330 000 is kinda a "realistic" best scenario, with only autos.

And what do you suggest actually kills stuff in blobfights, what settles the victory? 2 engines roaring with boons/heals/cleanses and see whichever one comes out alive when they crash?Or the engine with boons/heals/cleanses and some oomph?

Im certainly not advertising the Reaper to replace any meta/backbone roles of the zerg, but every zerg has a few [flex] slots.And im thinking the Reaper should probably be one of the better flex options in a meleepush heavy zerg (obviously not a pirateship zerg), since you will hug the tag all the time and swing away once you collide. no need for fancy mobility options if u stick tight (RS 2 is decent for some quick mobility if rly required).

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@Noha.3749 said:Im certainly not advertising the Reaper to replace any meta/backbone roles of the zerg, but every zerg has a few [flex] slots.And im thinking the Reaper should probably be one of the better flex options in a meleepush heavy zerg (obviously not a pirateship zerg), since you will hug the tag all the time and swing away once you collide. no need for fancy mobility options if u stick tight (RS 2 is decent for some quick mobility if rly required).

@Noha.3749 said:(Im just desperately trying to find more FUN niché builds)

My english isn't very good but I assume you're tired of playing the meta classes/builds and asking which is the 2nd-best class to use in a melee zerg?

And between your comparison of Berzerker and Reaper for 2nd best class, I'll suggest Berzerker.

They both bring DPS to the group however,Berserkers because they are a lot more versatile and resilient.Reapers on the other hand are heavily reliant on the zerg.

Ultimately though, if you're tired of playing meta and want more fun niche builds, then play anything you want.That's the beauty of a Zerg fight.Who the puppy cares what the commander wants?We can do what we want and leave the meta to others <3

If you're interested in fun themed necro builds for WvW, I got 15 Necro builds here and they're all fun.Let me know which catches your eye and I'll share the build with you ;)

[RisenHowl.2419]

Reaper definitely pulls 8-10k autos, potentially over 20k on the third hit. You can see it in the video above. I've hit over 20k with RS2 and over 35k with RS4.

It's just much harder to run than zerker because you need to worry about positioning while zerker can go full damage immune. Staff DD fills the same role as these two, just relies on evades.

When zerging on reaper, dont go for their frontline stack. Aim for the middle to back where you start dropping people with every swing or every other swing. Pick off the stragglers and sides, that's where heavy burst damage is most effective for snowballing fights.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Noha.3749 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You answered your own question:

@Noha.3749 said:Zerker:

• Better mobility
• Better defence
  (endure pain, situationally a shield, GS#3 invuln.
• The damage kicks in a bit faster with ADs than Soul Spiral

now add in hammer stuns and utility denial from break enchantments and wind of disenchantment, and you'll know why Zerker has a spot in blob fights and reaper doesn't.

WvW fights are not about only damage. Damage is almost insignificant considering that anything will melt under the blob bomb. The entire game mode revolves around sustain, movement, positioning, utility and utility denial. Warrior does all of those things and some of them really well. Reaper does almost none of those things and some of them really bad.

A zerker doesnt boonrip or bring bubbles, it spins?

If we just do a quick bit of below avrage but good enough math;

A reaper only spending its time ONLY autoattacking in the melee push would with no might or other fun boons/amplifiers except crit, hit for about, ~ 3000 dmg per swing which isnt fancy by itself.But now add in that the reaper dumps 4 of those swings per second due to quickness, hitting 3 targets with each swing for 5 seconds (which really isnt unrealistic)thats 3000 x 3 = 9000, 9000 x 4 = 36 000, 36 000 x 5 = 180 000

So just auto attacking without counting any might/vulnerability/dmg amplifiers(except 100%crit=easily achievable) would deliver about 180 000 melee cleave dmg in 5 seconds. ONLY counting braindead autoattacks in reaper while running with the tag. and 3000 per swing isnt impressive, more realistically its about 4-5.5k with some might and other boons the party shares.

If i do the calculation while using the "higher value" of 5.5k dmg /swings per target, it reaches 330 000dmg over 5sec.So without being unrealistic, 180 000 shouldnt be too hard to achieve, 330 000 is kinda a "realistic" best scenario, with only autos.

And what do you suggest actually kills stuff in blobfights, what settles the victory? 2 engines roaring with boons/heals/cleanses and see whichever one comes out alive when they crash?Or the engine with boons/heals/cleanses and some oomph?

Im certainly not advertising the Reaper to replace any meta/backbone roles of the zerg, but every zerg has a few [flex] slots.And im thinking the Reaper should probably be one of the better flex options in a meleepush heavy zerg (obviously not a pirateship zerg), since you will hug the tag all the time and swing away once you collide. no need for fancy mobility options if u stick tight (RS 2 is decent for some quick mobility if rly required).

Nice, now read the part again where I said IT'S NOT ABOUT DAMAGE. Jesus.

If you are in the front line as power reaper and not dead, the enemy blob is incompetent. The best role you take as power reaper in a blob (talking blob fights, not roaming) is to cleave and clean up.

EDIT:You were talking about reaper and warrior. Warrior is not on a flex slot or at least not the first 3-4 per full blob. You are thus comparing apples to oranges when asking why warrior gets chosen over power reaper.

As to who is responsible for the damage in your blob currently: the scrouges and weavers while the support tempest, guardians and scrappers make up the support backbone.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Noha.3749 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You answered your own question:

@Noha.3749 said:Zerker:

• Better mobility
• Better defence
  (endure pain, situationally a shield, GS#3 invuln.
• The damage kicks in a bit faster with ADs than Soul Spiral

now add in hammer stuns and utility denial from break enchantments and wind of disenchantment, and you'll know why Zerker has a spot in blob fights and reaper doesn't.

WvW fights are not about only damage. Damage is almost insignificant considering that anything will melt under the blob bomb. The entire game mode revolves around sustain, movement, positioning, utility and utility denial. Warrior does all of those things and some of them really well. Reaper does almost none of those things and some of them really bad.

A zerker doesnt boonrip or bring bubbles, it spins?

If we just do a quick bit of below avrage but good enough math;

A reaper only spending its time ONLY autoattacking in the melee push would with no might or other fun boons/amplifiers except crit, hit for about, ~ 3000 dmg per swing which isnt fancy by itself.But now add in that the reaper dumps 4 of those swings per second due to quickness, hitting 3 targets with each swing for 5 seconds (which really isnt unrealistic)thats 3000 x 3 = 9000, 9000 x 4 = 36 000, 36 000 x 5 = 180 000

So just auto attacking without counting any might/vulnerability/dmg amplifiers(except 100%crit=easily achievable) would deliver about 180 000 melee cleave dmg in 5 seconds. ONLY counting braindead autoattacks in reaper while running with the tag. and 3000 per swing isnt impressive, more realistically its about 4-5.5k with some might and other boons the party shares.

If i do the calculation while using the "higher value" of 5.5k dmg /swings per target, it reaches 330 000dmg over 5sec.So without being unrealistic, 180 000 shouldnt be too hard to achieve, 330 000 is kinda a "realistic" best scenario, with only autos.

And what do you suggest actually kills stuff in blobfights, what settles the victory? 2 engines roaring with boons/heals/cleanses and see whichever one comes out alive when they crash?Or the engine with boons/heals/cleanses and some oomph?

Im certainly not advertising the Reaper to replace any meta/backbone roles of the zerg, but every zerg has a few [flex] slots.And im thinking the Reaper should probably be one of the better flex options in a meleepush heavy zerg (obviously not a pirateship zerg), since you will hug the tag all the time and swing away once you collide. no need for fancy mobility options if u stick tight (RS 2 is decent for some quick mobility if rly required).

Nice, now read the part again where I said IT'S NOT ABOUT DAMAGE. Jesus.

If you are in the front line as power reaper and not dead, the enemy blob is incompetent. The best role you take as power reaper in a blob (talking blob fights, not roaming) is to cleave and clean up.

EDIT:You were talking about reaper and warrior. Warrior is not on a flex slot or at least not the first 3-4 per full blob. You are thus comparing apples to oranges when asking why warrior gets chosen over power reaper.

As to who is responsible for the damage in your blob currently: the scrouges and weavers while the support tempest, guardians and scrappers make up the support backbone.

For weaver, staff DD, berzerker, and reaper it's 100% about damage. Big hits that generate fast downs for your group to capitalize on for rallies, that's worth as much as anything else in a zerg because it allows your group to steamroll. You only need a couple in a full squad to get the full effect. Rev heavy comps prefer weaver to fill the role while melee comps are better with the other three

[Cyninja.2954]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Noha.3749 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You answered your own question:

@Noha.3749 said:Zerker:

• Better mobility
• Better defence
  (endure pain, situationally a shield, GS#3 invuln.
• The damage kicks in a bit faster with ADs than Soul Spiral

now add in hammer stuns and utility denial from break enchantments and wind of disenchantment, and you'll know why Zerker has a spot in blob fights and reaper doesn't.

WvW fights are not about only damage. Damage is almost insignificant considering that anything will melt under the blob bomb. The entire game mode revolves around sustain, movement, positioning, utility and utility denial. Warrior does all of those things and some of them really well. Reaper does almost none of those things and some of them really bad.

A zerker doesnt boonrip or bring bubbles, it spins?

If we just do a quick bit of below avrage but good enough math;

A reaper only spending its time ONLY autoattacking in the melee push would with no might or other fun boons/amplifiers except crit, hit for about, ~ 3000 dmg per swing which isnt fancy by itself.But now add in that the reaper dumps 4 of those swings per second due to quickness, hitting 3 targets with each swing for 5 seconds (which really isnt unrealistic)thats 3000 x 3 = 9000, 9000 x 4 = 36 000, 36 000 x 5 = 180 000

So just auto attacking without counting any might/vulnerability/dmg amplifiers(except 100%crit=easily achievable) would deliver about 180 000 melee cleave dmg in 5 seconds. ONLY counting braindead autoattacks in reaper while running with the tag. and 3000 per swing isnt impressive, more realistically its about 4-5.5k with some might and other boons the party shares.

If i do the calculation while using the "higher value" of 5.5k dmg /swings per target, it reaches 330 000dmg over 5sec.So without being unrealistic, 180 000 shouldnt be too hard to achieve, 330 000 is kinda a "realistic" best scenario, with only autos.

And what do you suggest actually kills stuff in blobfights, what settles the victory? 2 engines roaring with boons/heals/cleanses and see whichever one comes out alive when they crash?Or the engine with boons/heals/cleanses and some oomph?

Im certainly not advertising the Reaper to replace any meta/backbone roles of the zerg, but every zerg has a few [flex] slots.And im thinking the Reaper should probably be one of the better flex options in a meleepush heavy zerg (obviously not a pirateship zerg), since you will hug the tag all the time and swing away once you collide. no need for fancy mobility options if u stick tight (RS 2 is decent for some quick mobility if rly required).

Nice, now read the part again where I said IT'S NOT ABOUT DAMAGE. Jesus.

If you are in the front line as power reaper and not dead, the enemy blob is incompetent. The best role you take as power reaper in a blob (talking blob fights, not roaming) is to cleave and clean up.

EDIT:You were talking about reaper and warrior. Warrior is not on a flex slot or at least not the first 3-4 per full blob. You are thus comparing apples to oranges when asking why warrior gets chosen over power reaper.

As to who is responsible for the damage in your blob currently: the scrouges and weavers while the support tempest, guardians and scrappers make up the support backbone.

For weaver, staff DD, berzerker, and reaper it's 100% about damage. Big hits that generate fast downs for your group to capitalize on for rallies, that's worth as much as anything else in a zerg because it allows your group to steamroll. You only need a couple in a full squad to get the full effect. Rev heavy comps prefer weaver to fill the role while melee comps are better with the other three

It thus comes down to, which class provides the safest damage with the most ability to survive. Weaver is obvious, it's not at the frontline. Staff DD and zerker have a ton of mobility and damage absorption or ignore to deal with front line damage. Reaper just melts.

That said, I rarely see pure zerkers without utility's like Winds of Disenchantment or Hammer off-hand simply because the value of a warrior is so much greater with bringing those to the table. At least not on my server where the majority of damage comes from corrupt Scourge and power weavers. They don't seem to have any problem getting stuff dead.

[Noha.3749]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Noha.3749 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You answered your own question:

@Noha.3749 said:Zerker:

• Better mobility
• Better defence
  (endure pain, situationally a shield, GS#3 invuln.
• The damage kicks in a bit faster with ADs than Soul Spiral

Nice, now read the part again where I said IT'S NOT ABOUT DAMAGE. Jesus.

If you are in the front line as power reaper and not dead, the enemy blob is incompetent. The best role you take as power reaper in a blob (talking blob fights, not roaming) is to cleave and clean up.

EDIT:You were talking about reaper and warrior. Warrior is not on a flex slot or at least not the first 3-4 per full blob. You are thus comparing apples to oranges when asking why warrior gets chosen over power reaper.

As to who is responsible for the damage in your blob currently: the scrouges and weavers while the support tempest, guardians and scrappers make up the support backbone.

..

Well you started comparing Spellbreakers/warriors to Reapers, im talking about E-spec Berserker getting a spot priority over Necro E-spec reaper. (both pure melee dps)

And therefor i AM comparing Apples with Apples, you brought in the oranges :p

[Cyninja.2954]

@Noha.3749 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Noha.3749 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You answered your own question:

@Noha.3749 said:Zerker:

• Better mobility
• Better defence
  (endure pain, situationally a shield, GS#3 invuln.
• The damage kicks in a bit faster with ADs than Soul Spiral

Nice, now read the part again where I said IT'S NOT ABOUT DAMAGE. Jesus.

If you are in the front line as power reaper and not dead, the enemy blob is incompetent. The best role you take as power reaper in a blob (talking blob fights, not roaming) is to cleave and clean up.

EDIT:You were talking about reaper and warrior. Warrior is not on a flex slot or at least not the first 3-4 per full blob. You are thus comparing apples to oranges when asking why warrior gets chosen over power reaper.

As to who is responsible for the damage in your blob currently: the scrouges and weavers while the support tempest, guardians and scrappers make up the support backbone.

..

Well you started comparing Spellbreakers/warriors to Reapers, im talking about E-spec Berserker getting a spot priority over Necro E-spec reaper. (both pure melee dps)

And therefor i AM comparing Apples with Apples, you brought in the oranges :p

The answer to that comparison is simple, both are rather useless, at best take up flex spots if present and one of both gets dusted by any half competent commander of an enemy zerg (reaper) , while the other could be way more useful when making use of its entire kit (warrior).