Thief - 07/15/2019 Upcoming Balance Notes!!

[Axl.8924]

@babazhook.6805 said:One of the builds I play is p/d condition using the SA line. I see a significant upside wih these changes either from a damage out perspective or one where you focus on sustain.

Now contrary to some that claimed few use stealth to attack p/d does in fact do this and pops in and out of stealth with regularity. My own build uses tormenting runes and these gives a decent heal on every application of torment. Now I can envision taking the shadowstep heal trait along with stealth on heal coupled with withdraw and the shadows rejuv where one heals while stealthed and everytime I use a shadowstrike i get the heal off torment runes due to torment app, the heal off the shadowstep and a heal if i pop into stealth. The shadow siphoningh is also intriguing dependent on the heal size.

Alternatively I can take the new venom trait to stack spider venom stealthed and mix this with deadly ambition and even the odds out of the DA line and this should see a significant boost in Condition adds.

it sounds like I might be able to use it like the way I used that bow attack for lowering healing bonus for securing a kill, sounds mostly like condi thief though.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Oh man, where to begin?

• Traps (Skill Category): This category has been replaced by a new skill category: Preparations.

  • Preparations will function in a similar fashion to trap abilities, but they will not fire unless the thief chooses to trigger them. Each preparation will have a radius of 240 and will produce a variety of results, including the introduction of a portal-type utility that can ferry allies to a location.Prepare Pitfall: This new skill will mark your current area with controlling magic, readying the location to crush enemies when released.

If they are going to add a new category, they should just do so an leave traps as is.

• The problem with "prepare" and "activate" is it's two steps. With all the clumsiness in the Thief skill bar of late, we don't need another one.
• Traps can be recast to a new location especially on the move and Thief is always on the move. Preparation will not replace the tactical use of traps.
• Preparation looks good, but it's slow, methodical, and strategical. Traps is fast, mobile, and tactical.

There are many good suggestions here about traps and I especially like the one that turns a triggered trap in to an AoE effect. Replacing traps with preparation was never one of them.

I sure hope that this is temporary that trap will return, but I'll be honest, I can't work with Preparations. It's too slow and it wouldn't sync well with the Thief rhythm. But hey, at least DE, will love it, eh?

[babazhook.6805]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Oh man, where to begin?

• Traps (Skill Category): This category has been replaced by a new skill category: Preparations.
  • Preparations will function in a similar fashion to trap abilities, but they will not fire unless the thief chooses to trigger them. Each preparation will have a radius of 240 and will produce a variety of results, including the introduction of a portal-type utility that can ferry allies to a location.Prepare Pitfall: This new skill will mark your current area with controlling magic, readying the location to crush enemies when released.

If they are going to add a new category, they should just do so an leave traps as is.

• The problem with "prepare" and "activate" is it's two steps. With all the clumsiness in the Thief skill bar of late, we don't need another one.
• Traps can be recast to a new location especially on the move and Thief is always on the move. Preparation will not replace the tactical use of traps.
• Preparation looks good, but it's slow, methodical, and strategical. Traps is fast, mobile, and tactical.

There are many good suggestions here about traps and I especially like the one that turns a triggered trap in to an AoE effect. Replacing traps with preparation was never one of them.

I sure hope that this is temporary that trap will return, but I'll be honest, I can't work with Preparations. It's too slow and it wouldn't sync well with the Thief rhythm. But hey, at least DE, will love it, eh?

I have reservations myself but will not make observations until i try it. Here is a problem I had with old traps. Clones and minions and NPC guards would trip them when I wanted them tripped by the player. Also in group fights rather then having the first player to enter a trap set it off , I might want to wait until two or more are there such as setting one off IF i managed to plant one where an enemy downed and another 1 or two come to rez. Another advantage is I might see an advatage in setting one off when an enemy is low on health , if in the area I have the prep made and I trigger it along with an attack. As example I have one placed prior , finish a Pistol whip and trigger the trap as I port away. Clunky is worrisome but I inittialy found the old refined traps clunky after the add of the arm time when i wanted to prepare trap prior, steal to the target and see the trap procced on target. It took a little practice but I got this to woork fine after a while.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Oh man, where to begin?

• Traps (Skill Category): This category has been replaced by a new skill category: Preparations.
  • Preparations will function in a similar fashion to trap abilities, but they will not fire unless the thief chooses to trigger them. Each preparation will have a radius of 240 and will produce a variety of results, including the introduction of a portal-type utility that can ferry allies to a location.Prepare Pitfall: This new skill will mark your current area with controlling magic, readying the location to crush enemies when released.

If they are going to add a new category, they should just do so an leave traps as is.

• The problem with "prepare" and "activate" is it's two steps. With all the clumsiness in the Thief skill bar of late, we don't need another one.
• Traps can be recast to a new location especially on the move and Thief is always on the move. Preparation will not replace the tactical use of traps.
• Preparation looks good, but it's slow, methodical, and strategical. Traps is fast, mobile, and tactical.

There are many good suggestions here about traps and I especially like the one that turns a triggered trap in to an AoE effect. Replacing traps with preparation was never one of them.

I sure hope that this is temporary that trap will return, but I'll be honest, I can't work with Preparations. It's too slow and it wouldn't sync well with the Thief rhythm. But hey, at least DE, will love it, eh?

I have reservations myself but will not make observations until i try it. Here is a problem I had with old traps. Clones and minions and NPC guards would trip them when I wanted them tripped by the player. Also in group fights rather then having the first player to enter a trap set it off , I might want to wait until two or more are there such as setting one off IF i managed to plant one where an enemy downed and another 1 or two come to rez. Another advantage is I might see an advatage in setting one off when an enemy is low on health , if in the area I have the prep made and I trigger it along with an attack. As example I have one placed prior , finish a Pistol whip and trigger the trap as I port away. Clunky is worrisome but I inittialy found the old refined traps clunky after the add of the arm time when i wanted to prepare trap prior, steal to the target and see the trap procced on target. It took a little practice but I got this to woork fine after a while.

I'm sure there is a way they can code it so that we can choose whether to set it auto or manual activation (think like ctrl+right click for AA's) - it just all depends whether they would consider this but that kind of toggle would be nice and solve both those issues.

[Axl.8924]

Has anyone tested that stealth revive thing for thieves? just curious sounds like it could be useful as a ninja support class to jump in start sabotaging your enemies by rezzing and giving camo to your ally.

Anyone also try traps yet? im curious about that pitfall one because unless it immobilizes them while damaging them I don-t see how it can work.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Axl.8924 said:Has anyone tested that stealth revive thing for thieves? just curious sounds like it could be useful as a ninja support class to jump in start sabotaging your enemies by rezzing and giving camo to your ally.

Anyone also try traps yet? im curious about that pitfall one because unless it immobilizes them while damaging them I don-t see how it can work.

It's not out yet, in a few more hours I think. Looking forward to all changes on all classes to see what I can make work and the challenges that come with it and new counters.

[Straegen.2938]

@Ustaf.2953 said:On the contrary, I find stealth on steal extremely disruptive, because it prevent you from being able to precast a stealth attack and then steal midcast to guarantee landing it. (Idk why this happens tbh)If you are stealthed and have Hidden Killer, nothing changes other than the duration of your stealth when the steal lands. Why would a player prime a stealth attack such as CnD with Hidden Killer traited? Even when the steal missed Hidden Killer still stealthed the player rather than leaving them exposed.

Its removal also slows the DeadEye mark, malice, Death's Judgement combo. Now DE will have to heal/dodge, then mark, then fire Skirmishers followed by Death's Judgement so they all land at the same time rather than just mark, Skirmishers, Judgement.

I am very much looking forward to stealth on heal because it allows you to disengage and sustain with withdraw every 18 seconds and then imidiately reapply pressure with a stealth attack. Seems really good for duelist builds.Stealth on heal is solid but it is going to be mostly defensive. Hidden Killer could be used safely either way. On attack it had no initiative cost, no utility cost and didn't cost a dodge. On defense, a player went stealth by simply not having anything targeted and popping the steal. Not having an extra offensive or defensive stealth that costs no initiative or utility cooldown is a DPS loss and a wash on survival IMO.

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

Cloaked in Shadow is broken. Its applying the fear that Rending Shade should and Rending Shade is still only removing boons.

[Xenji.4907]

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Cloaked in Shadow is broken. Its applying the fear that Rending Shade should and Rending Shade is still only removing boons.

Did you put it in the BUGs subforums?! They need to see this ish.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Straegen.2938 said:

• DA Dagger Training is a small nerf particularly for D/? condi
• DA Deadly Ambition seems to be a wash to me since I used the unblockable trap to good effect

Yeah this change is pretty horrible for D/D and D/X condi builds in all modes. It’s like a 50%+ nerf to poison application from Dagger Training + Potent Poison plus the loss of poison cleave since the new trait has an ICD and isn’t “per enemy.” Really bad change

[DemonSeed.3528]

I still think the cast+arm time is a hindrance on preparations

[Alatar.7364]

@MrAmputatoes.6031 said:Cloaked in Shadow is broken. Its applying the fear that Rending Shade should and Rending Shade is still only removing boons.

In sPvP Rending Shade works normally as is described by its tooltip.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I've got the base stats for the preparation skills now. This is sitting in the PVP lobby with nothing equipped (all stats are at 1000, no damage traits).

PitfallRecharge: 25 secondsInitial Impact: 332Pulse Damage: 1332 Vulnerability (6s)Knockdown: 3 SecondsNumber of Targets: 5Duration: 3 secondsInterval: 1 secondRadius: 240Unblockable

Overall doesn't seem too bad. A comparative condition, Shadow Flare, has 800 base damage, while this has 731.

Thousand NeedlesRecharge: 30 secondsDamage: 133Pulsing Damage: 53Immobilize (3s)Poison (8s)2 Bleeding (3s)Cripple (2s)Number of Targets: 5Duration: 5 secondsInterval: 1 secondRadius 240Unblockable

It inflicts a total of 5 stacks of poison and 10 stacks of bleed, for an overall total of 40 poison ticks and 30 bleed ticks. Damage-wise, it is still weaker than Caltrops (100 bleed ticks), but while solo it is stronger than spider venom (36 poison ticks per person in PVP, 24 poison ticks per person in PVE).

Seal AreaRecharge: 35 secondsTargets: 20Blocks Projectiles~~~~Duration: 8 SecondsRadius: 240Unblockable

This one does no damage. It's just funny looking. Not sure how much use it will be, though.

Shadow PortalRecharge: 60 secondsStealth: 2 secondsWeakness (3s)Targets: 5Allied Targets: 5Allied Targets: 1Duration: 8 SecondsRadius: 240Breaks StunRange: 5000

There's a bug here. The stealth isn't affected by any Shadow Arts traits. Well... it's a portal. And not a bad one like Sand Portal. Let free your whimsy and get creative.

[Trianox.3486]

Seal Area is a "Dark Field" allowing for using Dagger storm for 10 hits of 250+ dmg, nice extra dmg boost there and the two synergize pretty well.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@"Trianox.3486" said:Seal Area is a "Dark Field" allowing for using Dagger storm for 10 hits of 250+ dmg, nice extra dmg boost there and the two synergize pretty well.

I try to trap people in it, steal into them and backstab if possible whilst removing boons followed by daggerstorm.

[Loki.4871]

I'm more a pve person here, but I think Leeching Venoms needs one tweak: right now you have to be in stealth for several seconds for a stack to apply. This means that if you pop Shadow Refuge (7s with the minor traits) you get 2 stacks of spider venom and one of them needs you to wait 3 seconds for the first stack. I find that rather pointless, and think it would be much better to get one when you first go into stealth.

[DemonSeed.3528]

@Loki.4871 said:I'm more a pve person here, but I think Leeching Venoms needs one tweak: right now you have to be in stealth for several seconds for a stack to apply. This means that if you pop Shadow Refuge (7s with the minor traits) you get 2 stacks of spider venom and one of them needs you to wait 3 seconds for the first stack. I find that rather pointless, and think it would be much better to get one when you first go into stealth.

That's the bad thing about it's reliance on stealth too - in wvw you'd need to basically go for a heavy stealth build, and you aren't also going to be doing any stacks with all the traps/tricks, sentry, watchtower, marked debuff. Do we really want people to camp stealth as well?

[Straegen.2938]

@Loki.4871 said:I'm more a pve person here, but I think Leeching Venoms needs one tweak: right now you have to be in stealth for several seconds for a stack to apply. This means that if you pop Shadow Refuge (7s with the minor traits) you get 2 stacks of spider venom and one of them needs you to wait 3 seconds for the first stack. I find that rather pointless, and think it would be much better to get one when you first go into stealth.

It is utterly useless. I mean completely pointless. I am trying to say they somehow took a useless trait and somehow magically reworked it into utter oblivion. Only a sadist would take this trait.

[Trianox.3486]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Straegen.2938 said:

• DA Dagger Training is a small nerf particularly for D/? condi
• DA Deadly Ambition seems to be a wash to me since I used the unblockable trap to good effect

Yeah this change is pretty horrible for D/D and D/X condi builds in all modes. It’s like a 50%+ nerf to poison application from Dagger Training + Potent Poison plus the loss of poison cleave since the new trait has an ICD and isn’t “per enemy.” Really bad change

I just came out testing over and over some of the skills/traits, and despite many bugs (oh boy...), Deadly Ambition poison seemed to cleave. Hummm.

@Straegen.2938 said:

@Loki.4871 said:I'm more a pve person here, but I think Leeching Venoms needs one tweak: right now you have to be in stealth for several seconds for a stack to apply. This means that if you pop Shadow Refuge (7s with the minor traits) you get 2 stacks of spider venom and one of them needs you to wait 3 seconds for the first stack. I find that rather pointless, and think it would be much better to get one when you first go into stealth.

It is utterly useless. I mean completely pointless. I am trying to say they somehow took a useless trait and somehow magically reworked it into utter oblivion. Only a sadist would take this trait.

Would make more sense if it worked like Shadow's Embrace, spawning one charge as you stealth, then +1 every 3 sec (altho I'd argue for every 1-2 sec... even once per sec would not be that OP considering that you won't be doing any dmg while in stealth other than the already ticking ones... AND that for effective condi build, usually you just keep and keep stacking more and more, you're never really supposed to stop stacking, unless you have another advantage in doing so.).

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Trianox.3486 said:

I just came out testing over and over some of the skills/traits, and despite many bugs (oh boy...), Deadly Ambition poison seemed to cleave. Hummm.

So seems to cleave if you hit enemies all at the same time with the same strike, but skills like Bouncing Dagger or Death Blossom will only apply it on the first hit, so any foes not hit by the first hit won't get the poison stacks. So its per hit, not per target ICD. Hadn't gotten the chance to super test it yet and was only looking for per target ICD earlier.

Also Potent Poison isn't working with it at all, which is awful.

[Trianox.3486]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:

I just came out testing over and over some of the skills/traits, and despite many bugs (oh boy...), Deadly Ambition poison seemed to cleave. Hummm.

So seems to cleave if you hit enemies all at the same time with the same strike, but skills like Bouncing Dagger or Death Blossom will only apply it on the first hit, so any foes not hit by the first hit won't get the poison stacks. So its per hit, not per target ICD. Hadn't gotten the chance to super test it yet and was only looking for per target ICD earlier.

Also Potent Poison isn't working with it at all, which is awful.

Oh okay! I get what you mean. You seem right then!Yes, I already reported the Potent poison bug both IG and on forum.

[babazhook.6805]

I was worried about the preparations as I did have a p/d build that had used traps prior to them being dropped. I PREFER the manual tirgger. I am much better able to control when this goes off . I have been able to draw three and more enemy to me at once , port away and trigger. I get a much more reliable hit rate on the Thousand needles then I used to get on Needle trap.

The arm time of 3 seconds I am still not sure on and will need a bit more testing. My first instinct is it to high and should drop to 2 at most.

I am loving the Shadow Portal.

[babazhook.6805]

To other skills.

Deadly ambition. I feel this needs one more stack of poison on use. At minimim it has to work with potent posion as this seems not the case.

Even the Odds. This skill is fine and competitive with the other two skills. It close to function to revealed training with the add of the vuln and it needing a couple of attacks to build to the same power level for might. Very usable in Condition, Power or hybrid. While Deadly trapper might of been more might/vuln quicker it was predicated on traiting traps in some manner and worked only with traps. I find I prefer this.

Concealing Restoration. This is sweet and welcome. Love it.

The adepts , Merciful Ambush , Hidden thief and Shadows Embrace. Those are all fine and each has its role dependent on build. I am currently using hidden thief and appreciate it now lowers cooldowns on deceptions . HIS works as the Cleanse over Shadows embrace. I would suggest that in the spirit of thief adding more to support we add this to shadows embrace.

Shadows embrace Remove conditions while in stealth on player and nearby allies. Targets 5. Basically the same skill with nearby allies added.

Shadow Savior. So far so good. The heal MIGHT be a tad low and more testing needed But I am liking it.

Leeching Venoms. Way to little in the way of stacks to be worthwhile taking. Rate of stack add should be higher. Change venom gain interval to 2 seconds or change too gain 2 stacks venom at each pulse with the interval at 3.

Flickering Shadows. This was a huge nerf over the Combo of Shadows resilience and CIS which was all that was between the thief and instant death when facing channled attacks and cleave. The skill needs at be 50 percent reduction if it going to stay in its "on revealed" form.

Shadow siphoning. Compared to the old Resilience in this spot a huge downgrade. With the shift in location of skills this in reality replaces shadow protector, which was never used as the other skills in slot outclassed it. That said I think this warrants a 15 percent boost in heal and damage. It only on a singular attack from stealth after all so is not spammable .

Rending shade. I have never got fear to fire. There just too many boons. Maybe this should steal three boons but even if it did not I guess it serviceable.

Shadows rejuvenation. is fine.

Cloaked in Shadow. a HUGE and impactful nerf. This does not qualify as a GM trait. I much prefer the No crits while stealthed as now you can be cleaved to death or or subject to a channeled attack death with ease even when stealthed. If there no return of No crit this needs a huge boost to the siphon number. with the number of times you can actually blind someone in combat the 66 heal is meaningless.

[Shade.8971]

So when can we expect a venom and Shadow Arts rework?

[VixusIrine.9013]

RIP ambush, I know you were kinda bad but I still liked you. Too bad Seal Area doesn't spawn in a thief or two to get the drop on enemies but I guess that'd make it a little too powerful.