sigil of cleansing and more.

[Voltekka.2375]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Hitman.5829" said:Removing 3 conditions in 10 seconds is broken?I'll tell you whats broken. Applying 20+ conditions in 10 seconds is whats broken

A warrior cries about condies. Something their class completely shuts down with resistance spam. Oh, the times.

Well, as much as I would like to disagree with Hitman, he's right about this. Amount of flying conditions in current state of game is far too much. Even more that current condies are mostly burst and you can easily stack over 10 of burn/bleed/poison/confusion etc within few seconds and on top of that tanky trailblazer or dire + defensive boons. It's too much, so sigil of cleansing removing 3 condis is barely keeping up with that...

Use antitoxin runes, condi dur reduction food. But I forgot, warriors are meant to use only strength runes or something similar, along with pure dps stats, right?

Anti toxin runes barely add an extra condi clear and condi reduction food is mostly pointless these days given that condi builds run with 70%-100% condi duration with trailblazer and similar gear, in wvw condi builds can applies up to 10 condis in the blink of an eye and from safe distance ....

the sigil of cleansing was a valid addition

What does "barely one" condition mean? Each condicleanse removes one extra condi, period. And i agree with the sigil, yet people arent satisfied with it, apparently.

[acdspydar.8920]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Hitman.5829" said:Removing 3 conditions in 10 seconds is broken?I'll tell you whats broken. Applying 20+ conditions in 10 seconds is whats broken

A warrior cries about condies. Something their class completely shuts down with resistance spam. Oh, the times.

Well, as much as I would like to disagree with Hitman, he's right about this. Amount of flying conditions in current state of game is far too much. Even more that current condies are mostly burst and you can easily stack over 10 of burn/bleed/poison/confusion etc within few seconds and on top of that tanky trailblazer or dire + defensive boons. It's too much, so sigil of cleansing removing 3 condis is barely keeping up with that...

Use antitoxin runes, condi dur reduction food. But I forgot, warriors are meant to use only strength runes or something similar, along with pure dps stats, right?

Anti toxin runes barely add an extra condi clear and condi reduction food is mostly pointless these days given that condi builds run with 70%-100% condi duration with trailblazer and similar gear, in wvw condi builds can applies up to 10 condis in the blink of an eye and from safe distance ....

the sigil of cleansing was a valid addition

What does "barely one" condition mean? Each condicleanse removes one extra condi, period. And i agree with the sigil, yet people arent satisfied with it, apparently.

Antitoxin runes are not a top pick for warrior unless you're running a condi/hybrid spec. Personally I'd go with strength over antitoxin, lol. There was another one tho that was great for condis, I can't think of it rn, but the point is... Condis only really suck when you get bursted and target is max distance cast range. Catching up with 10 stacks of torment is a huge disadvantage if you get that resistance stripped, and God forbid if you get chill, poison, burning, bleed, torment, and blind... That weapon swap gets 4 (if you use brawler's recovery) if you play your cards right you can survive that burst with cleansing at 3 condis removed... Until the next burst. At that point, we can play the "let's theory craft builds" to figure out counter builds to counter builds.

[Caedmon.6798]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Hitman.5829" said:Removing 3 conditions in 10 seconds is broken?I'll tell you whats broken. Applying 20+ conditions in 10 seconds is whats broken

A warrior cries about condies. Something their class completely shuts down with resistance spam. Oh, the times.

"In a world where boonripping does not exist"

[LetoII.3782]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"Hitman.5829" said:Removing 3 conditions in 10 seconds is broken?I'll tell you whats broken. Applying 20+ conditions in 10 seconds is whats broken

A warrior cries about condies. Something their class completely shuts down with resistance spam. Oh, the times.

"In a world where boonripping does not exist"

Heaven forbid the chosen ones have the slightest weakness

[Ged Kealmen.7210]

@wolverine.5164 said:

@"X T D.6458" said:Broken is a vague term...is it broken in that it is unbalanced, or bugged and being exploited?

ITS VERY STRONG.... removes 3 condis on weapon swap, do u want some milk also?

3 condis cleared on swap every 9 seconds is not "very strong" but barely enough and not enough in many cases. Lots of condi builds put a heck of a lot more condis on enemies in one or two seconds. These 3 clears are barely enough added with trait and utility clears to give some classes a fighting chance against condi builds that pile on the pain and stealth, jump or blink away or hide amongst clones.

[coro.3176]

@Hitman.5829 said:Removing 3 conditions in 10 seconds is broken?I'll tell you whats broken. Applying 20+ conditions in 10 seconds is whats broken

The problem we have is that a few condi builds apply 20+ conditions in 10s (scourge, mirage maaaybe thief?), and then a whole bunch of condi builds that don't do that (warrior, engi, revenant, ranger, guardian).

Condi ranger's game plan, for example, is to get huge stacks of bleed, poison, and maybe burn to stick for long enough to kill their opponent. For this, it has to get closer to its target than most power builds, it has to land melee range skills and then it has to survive while the conditions tick.

If the opponent is cleansing 3 condi every 9s for free with weapon swap in addition to whatever cleanse it already has, condi ranger is going to have a bad time.

Condi engi (which I play) has a really really hard time with this because its main damage skills are on ~12s cooldown, so if you stick some conditions, they can cleanse it faster than you can apply it just by swapping weapons. It'd be different if it removed 3 stacks of a single condition, or only non-damaging conditions or whatever, but as it is now, it's pretty oppressive for a non-spammy condi build to face.

[coro.3176]

@Ged Kealmen.7210 said:

@wolverine.5164 said:

@"X T D.6458" said:Broken is a vague term...is it broken in that it is unbalanced, or bugged and being exploited?

ITS VERY STRONG.... removes 3 condis on weapon swap, do u want some milk also?

3 condis cleared on swap every 9 seconds is not "very strong" but barely enough and not enough in many cases. Lots of condi builds put a heck of a lot more condis on enemies in one or two seconds. These 3 clears are barely enough added with trait and utility clears to give some classes a fighting chance against condi builds that pile on the pain and stealth, jump or blink away or hide amongst clones.

Most condi classes can't do this. It's really only 3 that can "spam" condi: mesmer/necro(scourge)/thief. The rest are limited by cooldowns or have to spend a lot of effort applying a single condi like burn guard or a bleed-focused ranger.

[Ged Kealmen.7210]

Most condi classes can't do this. It's really only 3 that can "spam" condi: mesmer/necro(scourge)/thief. The rest are limited by cooldowns or have to spend a lot of effort applying a single condi like burn guard or a bleed-focused ranger.

So the problem, once more, goes back to Anet allowing builds that can stack way too many different condis way too fast. Even if it's just 3 classes, the fact is those three are broken and need fixing. If they are fixed, then sigil of cleansing is no longer necessary and we can go back to proper condi application vs condi clear balance through builds and people sacrificing some things in their builds in exchange for others according to their preferred play style.

But as long as we frequently come up against these excesses in multicondi builds, 3 condis every 9 seconds isn't overpowered imo.

[coro.3176]

@"Ged Kealmen.7210" said:

Most condi classes can't do this. It's really only 3 that can "spam" condi: mesmer/necro(scourge)/thief. The rest are limited by cooldowns or have to spend a lot of effort applying a single condi like burn guard or a bleed-focused ranger.

So the problem, once more, goes back to Anet allowing builds that can stack way too many different condis way too fast. Even if it's just 3 classes, the fact is those three are broken and need fixing. If they are fixed, then sigil of cleansing is no longer necessary and we can go back to proper condi application vs condi clear balance through builds and people sacrificing some things in their builds in exchange for others according to their preferred play style.

But as long as we frequently come up against these excesses in multicondi builds, 3 condis every 9 seconds (it has a cooldown so it's not simply "every weapon swap") isn't overpowered imo.

I think it is. Why? Because I run a single heal skill that cleanses 2 conditions on a 20s cooldown, + an immob clear on a similar cooldown and I get by fine. I don't run any extra cleanse traits or sigils or anything like that.

I struggle a bit vs condi mirage and condi thief. It's an unfavoured fight for me, but it is winnable. That's totally fine. The key to winning against any build, power or condi, is to not get hit by the skills in the first place. Only mirage is really a problem here, because the clones apply condi spam. Everything else can be mitigated with careful use of block, evade, CC, etc.

So.. when I see people saying a cleanse-3 on 9s cooldown is "necessary", I just don't buy it. It is entirely possible to fight opponents with much less cleanse than that. Keep in mind sigil of cleansing is in addition to all the other available cleanse.

The only exception I would grant is a pure melee class going up against a scourge, but even then, some smart CC and dodging can mitigate most of that incoming condi.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

These concerns seem catered to smaller fight/roaming...so I guess they are balanced since I don't see many use them in the (you know) other major half (or more) of the game mode.

D:

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

sigil of cleansing is broken.

3 condis on swap?

Just bad.

It should be ALL condis on weapon swap.

[Razor.6392]

It's the only thing I can use on FA ele to not feel worthless vs condi builds.

It's ok bro just mash the 11111 button you can reapply those condis in no time.

[coro.3176]

@Razor.6392 said:It's the only thing I can use on FA ele to not feel worthless vs condi builds.

It's ok bro just mash the 11111 button you can reapply those condis in no time.

I'm not sure what build you're thinking of..

On condi engi, for example, that would do:

• ~200 damage from the initial shot at 900 range
• ~approximately 1200 damage more across 10+ seconds assuming the single stack of bleed fully ticks out (which it never. ever. ever does - especially not if you've got sigil cleansing every weapon swap)
• on a 0.82s cast time

So yeah, if you think a 1400 damage autoattack across 10s is a problem .. uh. . sure. What does your autoattack hit for btw?

If I'm not mistaken, FA ele nukes for some ~20k damage in under 2s pretty easily.. and you can't cleanse the damage.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

@wolverine.5164 said:for> @Dawdler.8521 said:

Just out of curiousity, how is sigil of cleansing broken in PvE?

No really, I want to hear the argument there.

no body cares about pve... i just threw it out there.... focus on the other things.

FACT: nobody cares. Except for condi mirages that are so abundant on wvw but again, noone cares about mesmers' wishes.

Also...................................................................................................................

[geist.4126]

Warriors crying about condi is really the funniest thing around. Warrior shouldn't cry about anything right now. Three available builds and all are easy to play and can beat almost anyone with a steering wheel.

[geist.4126]

@"Ged Kealmen.7210" said:

Most condi classes can't do this. It's really only 3 that can "spam" condi: mesmer/necro(scourge)/thief. The rest are limited by cooldowns or have to spend a lot of effort applying a single condi like burn guard or a bleed-focused ranger.

So the problem, once more, goes back to Anet allowing builds that can stack way too many different condis way too fast. Even if it's just 3 classes, the fact is those three are broken and need fixing. If they are fixed, then sigil of cleansing is no longer necessary and we can go back to proper condi application vs condi clear balance through builds and people sacrificing some things in their builds in exchange for others according to their preferred play style.

But as long as we frequently come up against these excesses in multicondi builds, 3 condis every 9 seconds isn't overpowered imo.

To be honest the only thing that can do that is Mirage. And Mirage needs a nerf for ages now. The whole mirage gameplay is mostly passive. You press a button and tons of clone do the work for you. So you think a way too strong sigil is "justified" because one build is overpowered?Ok, in that case we should delete every condi invulnerability in the game, because so many classes completely negate any form of condition application.On the other hand every power class has either access to resistance which makes it immune to condis or can spam boons faster a necro can corrupt those. Both of this extremes have to be nerfed.There shouldn't be a boon spamming mechanic, like their shouldn't be a massive condition spamming mechanic. If you die in a zerg on condi, maybe you should check your positioning and kick the crappers/guardians/tempest you have in squad.Same goes for smallscale.

[Arheundel.6451]

@coro.3176 said:

@"Ged Kealmen.7210" said:

Most condi classes can't do this. It's really only 3 that can "spam" condi: mesmer/necro(scourge)/thief. The rest are limited by cooldowns or have to spend a lot of effort applying a single condi like burn guard or a bleed-focused ranger.

So the problem, once more, goes back to Anet allowing builds that can stack way too many different condis way too fast. Even if it's just 3 classes, the fact is those three are broken and need fixing. If they are fixed, then sigil of cleansing is no longer necessary and we can go back to proper condi application vs condi clear balance through builds and people sacrificing some things in their builds in exchange for others according to their preferred play style.

But as long as we frequently come up against these excesses in multicondi builds, 3 condis every 9 seconds (it has a cooldown so it's not simply "every weapon swap") isn't overpowered imo.

I think it is. Why? Because I run a single heal skill that cleanses

2

conditions on a 20s cooldown, + an immob clear on a similar cooldown and I get by fine. I don't run any extra cleanse traits or sigils or anything like that.

I struggle a bit vs condi mirage and condi thief. It's an unfavoured fight for me, but it is winnable. That's totally fine. The key to winning against any build, power or condi, is to not get hit by the skills in the first place. Only mirage is really a problem here, because the clones apply condi spam. Everything else can be mitigated with careful use of block, evade, CC, etc.

So.. when I see people saying a cleanse-3 on 9s cooldown is "necessary", I just don't buy it. It is entirely possible to fight opponents with much less cleanse than that. Keep in mind sigil of cleansing is in addition to all the other available cleanse.

The only exception I would grant is a pure melee class going up against a scourge, but even then, some smart CC and dodging can mitigate most of that incoming condi.

Stop lying man..just stop it!!" I get by using just 2 condi clears every 20s" yeah pff...show us a video of you fightning any condi build played by semi decent player pls...

You said to run something like this https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Engineer_-_Condi_DPS with your personal variations but at first look it seems that you can stack 4 different conditions just with AA and you're telling people they should dodge AA....the rest of core engi kit allows for stack of condis to be applied faster than endurance regeneration and any block skill the opponent may have.

The main problems of condi builds remain the same from launch:

1) Too rapid reapplication2) Short or non existent animation3) Ability to reach maximum damage while running extreme tanking build

Condi builds are loved because :

1) They ignore opponent armor, HP2) Single stat to be efficient so that you invest the rest into tanking stats3) easy to play and very efficient, no risk involved

Look at that condi engi build, if I'd use condi on crit sigils like torment and blight , I could apply even 6 condis all at once every 12s max , assuming I'd run full trailblazer armor and rabid gear I'd reach over 1400 condi dmg effectively dealing well over 20k dmg within a 12s window : 6 stacks of burn dealing 10k dmg, confusion dealing 1.2k dmg per stack (3) every skill usage , bleeding , poison etc etc...

There is no point lying on the forum . the devs full know the amount of dmg condis can do...and I have experienced first hand what a condi holo can do . Condi mirage is not the only class able to apply 5+ condi withing a short time period : condi mirage , condi rev , necro etc etc.....stop lying pls

P.S As @Razor.6392 has said ...justs spamming AA is enough to reapply multiple condis , the buffing of the sigil simply gave a fighting chance against the rampant use of condi build helped with the introduction of toughness/condi dmg stats, before we even start talking about condi clear we should remove : Traiblazer - Dire - Rabid - Settler - Viper from the game

[Arheundel.6451]

@coro.3176 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:Removing 3 conditions in 10 seconds is broken?I'll tell you whats broken. Applying 20+ conditions in 10 seconds is whats broken

The problem we have is that a few condi builds apply 20+ conditions in 10s (scourge, mirage maaaybe thief?), and then a whole bunch of condi builds that don't do that (warrior, engi, revenant, ranger, guardian).

Condi ranger's game plan, for example, is to get huge stacks of bleed, poison, and maybe burn to stick for long enough to kill their opponent. For this, it has to get closer to its target than most power builds, it has to land melee range skills and then it has to survive while the conditions tick.

If the opponent is cleansing 3 condi every 9s for free with weapon swap in addition to whatever cleanse it already has, condi ranger is going to have a bad time.

Condi engi (which I play) has a really really hard time with this because its main damage skills are on ~12s cooldown, so if you stick some conditions, they can cleanse it faster than you can apply it just by swapping weapons. It'd be different if it removed 3 stacks of a single condition, or only non-damaging conditions or whatever, but as it is now, it's pretty oppressive for a non-spammy condi build to face.

Condi ranger problem is not the sigil of cleansing...the problem is the application of condis which doesn't happen unless the opponent walks into your traps..and...just the AA on condi engi can apply up to 4s...can you please please stop lying?

[coro.3176]

Gosh, accused of lying! Someone is triggered.

Anyway, I will address your accusations...

• I do regularly beat decent condi players with only Healing Turret and Rocket Boots as cleanse. I don't consider this particularly difficult, so I don't generally record clips of it, but I might go back and dig through my archives and see if I've got one.
• I do not play the build you linked above. In PvP/WvW, it is important to spec for defense and mobility, so I can't afford to run all the on-hit condi application. I get burning once every 10s from Incendiary Powder, but yes.. if I traited for it, I could maybe get an extra stack or two of bleed and cripple. That's not worth the loss of defense and mobility.
• Condi sigils are helpful, yes, but they are on 8-10s cooldowns, so it's really not a huge buff. Unless you are getting an additional cover condi out of it, they're often not worth using. You're certainly not getting 4+ condi with every autoattack - the first one maybe, but not every one.
• pretty much no one plays condi engi, condi ranger, condi warrior, condi rev, etc. in WvW. For one thing. They're completely ineffective in a large fight due to the amount of team cleanse and conversion. You almost never see them roaming either. That should tell you something about their effectiveness.
• It's true that condi builds often get their damage from one stat, but this comes at a cost. Specifically, the damage is spread over a long duration and it can be cleansed. I would gladly play a power version of all the condi skills on a squishy build if it meant the damage would hit instantly. The extra tankiness is necessary to survive the additional 10-15s it usually takes for the condi to tick while your power opponent threatens to kill you in a second at any time.

You claim that condi skills have "short or nonexistent animations", and are "easy to play" with "no risk". I would argue the opposite. At least in condi engi's case, the animations are equal or longer than the power equivalents, are shorter range and thus more risky. I know the same is true for condi ranger, condi warrior, etc.

Again, I would gladly change all condi attacks to power, but I don't think you'd like that. You'd be dead much faster. That Blowtorch that applies 4 burns? That would hit like a Backstab or Vault. That autoattack applying a 10s bleed? That would hit like a Long Range Shot. Those scourge aoes? Those would hit like CoRs.

[XECOR.2814]

Condi is not a problem in wvw. But if they nerf cleansing it will be. Its completely balanced rn. There are other things that need urgent attention not this.

[Voltekka.2375]

Yes, remove condi builds so soulbeasts and warriors can go uncontested.

[coro.3176]

@XECOR.2814 said:Condi is not a problem in wvw. But if they nerf cleansing it will be. Its completely balanced rn. There are other things that need urgent attention not this.

It's really not completely balanced right now.

If you're a condi engi and you risk almost certain death to put yourself in melee range of an enemy zerg and Blowtorch them in the face .. nothing happens. The condi is cleansed within 1s (and converted to a boon because it needs an extra F-U). You do no damage and actually hurt your team by giving the enemy a boon.

If you're a power rev and you throw out CoR after CoR from relative safety 1200 range away in the backline, you get 7k+ per target every time.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

I don't think that the 3 condition-removal on a 9s CD is too strong. It just makes fighting with a condi build much more interesting, using more cover conditions at the right time etc. The only Argument that may Count here is that it makes the sigil basically mandatory in WvW roaming against condi builds. However, many classes have other Options for constant condi removal.

Just something in Addition:I really don't see why some People just think all condi builds are easy to Play, just Smash some Buttons and see your target go down?In my current scrapper condition build I have 22 skills with a specific use (and some useless skills), be it CC, be it blast finishers at the right time, be it mobility, blinding, damaging, cover-conditions, be it Close range or kiting, healing etc. many with hidden cooldowns on kits. How can someone think that this is easy to manage?