Please gut Condi Daredevil and Acro Staff Daredevil

[Sindrener.1592]

Buff teef pls

[Widmo.3186]

Oh another pls nerf teef thread? Lets be real...

[Kageseigi.2150]

Wow, this thread certainly has taken a turn for the worst.

Alas, this really has become just another "Nerf Thief" thread, and even worse, we may have reached a new low... "Nerf Shortbow."

Shortbow? The bane of Thief versatility! Yet, it's not even a call to nerf the one skill that could actually allow more versatility, the infamous Infiltrator's Arrow.

And also to remove a Thief's ability to evade/escape if it misses a strike? Really? If the 1-second cooldown on Stealth/Auto Attacks on a miss while in Stealth wasn't bad enough. Are you guys really trying to turn the Thief into a god-tier class? Not one that turns you into a god, but one that actually requires you to be a god in order to play decently.

Let's stop all this please, and take a step back so we can look at the big picture.

The complaint here is about Daredevil in PvP. It's not about the Shortbow or Deadly Arts or WvW or teleports. Let's please not think the same way as Anet does to fix something... by nerfing the entire class. Hasn't the Thief suffered enough already?

Thieves lost the ability to shorten Heartseeker.Thieves lost the ability to jump-cancel Infiltrator's Strike.Thieves lost the third dodge from Feline Grace.Daredevils lost half the range of Steal.

In WvW specifically, mounts have significantly reduced the advantage of the Thief's mobility and the lethality/effectiveness of the Thief's ambush/opening burst. The Thief has also lost much of its ability to survive and hide in Stealth.

Are those changes (among many, many other nerfs) not enough? Is it not enough that the Thief (Acrobatics) was gutted in order to create Daredevil? Must the Thief also lose decent traits/skills/sustain because of a specific troll/meme Daredevil build?

At worst, the Daredevil survives by well-timed evades (active playstyle). Not like the insane amount of passives that has plagued every other profession. I can understand complaints about Instant Reflexes and and Dagger Storm... but Choking Gas and Deadly Ambition?

There are so, so, so many ways to bring the Thief back into balance by actually fixing what's wrong with the profession as a whole instead of using band-aids in the form of pure nerfs. Right now, it's like we're trying to get a row of nails even by hammering down the ones that stand out... then you hit one too hard, and you have to hammer the others down that were just fine before.

But please, let's at least look at the root of the problem. Why would anyone want to play condi-Staff anyway? The answer should shine a light on the solution.

The Thief is not a predator anymore. It is a scavenger, unfortunately. And as a scavenger, it presses any advantage it can find... even if it's cheap and cheesy. Most Thief players, I'd dare say, do not want to be scavengers, but the choice isn't theirs to make.

[mehelpu.7160]

For all those who accuse thief's gameplay being toxic: I challenge you to play the entire next season as a meta s/d core thief. Minimum 300 games. No switches/rerolls, just no gimmicks, no stealth abuse, no one-shot potential, all well rounded power core s/d thief.I bet you change your mind very soon.

[Abelisk.5148]

@mehelpu.7160 said:For all those who accuse thief's gameplay being toxic: I challenge you to play the entire next season as a meta s/d core thief. Minimum 300 games. No switches/rerolls, just no gimmicks, no stealth abuse, no one-shot potential, all well rounded power core s/d thief.I bet you change your mind very soon.

And then try s/d condi Daredevil or staff/staff Daredevil for 10 games. I bet you will change your mind again very soon.

[mehelpu.7160]

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

@mehelpu.7160 said:For all those who accuse thief's gameplay being toxic: I challenge you to play the entire next season as a meta s/d core thief. Minimum 300 games. No switches/rerolls, just no gimmicks, no stealth abuse, no one-shot potential, all well rounded power core s/d thief.I bet you change your mind very soon.

And then try s/d condi Daredevil or staff/staff Daredevil for 10 games. I bet you will change your mind again very soon.

I've tried both. More than 3k games as power core s/d and about 500 games as condi drd. That's why I know what am I talking about. What's your numbers as a thief?

[foste.3098]

Now ppl are asking for shortbow nerfs, are you serious.Look here; was daredevil an issue a month or so ago? no, barely anyone played it. What had changed since then? Deadly arts got a poison update. Before the last patch no one even bothered with daredevil condi or otherwise, but now ppl are bandwagoning to it because it is easy to play. So the sollution is not to nerf everything except the actual root cause of the dominant build(s), which is in deadly arts.I get the sense ppl just want daredevil to get nerfed for the sake of it and bdw the concept of daredevil is high evasion, regardless of the build, which is an active form of defense to which the counter is well times burst. In other words stop spamming skills and actually time them for effect.

On the topic of the mystical staff builds that are immortal, they are not and staff is not a good pvp weapon ever since the initial waves of nerfs 4 years ago. Staff is a gimmick that is effective against unaware players much in the same vein as power staff ele is, it works at the start of a match and then everyone just plays around you and makes you null and void.Staff has no z axis mobility, its only gap closer is expensive and so the weapon set is easy to kite, the auto attack is slow, skill 2 is a joke, the hardest hitting skill is easily distinguishable even in a massive fight. The only skill which is really strong is debilitating arc and that is only if you bug it out but jump casting, otherwise it is mediocre.On the topic of the 'mind changing staff/staff' build that just spams vault and bound dodge while sustaining initiative with upper hand, quick pockets, and roll for initiative and sustains endurance with channeled vigor, sigils of energy and vigor; it is a build that uses 1 weapon and only 3 buttons for damage one of which has a cd of 25 seconds.It is a predictable a build as it gets, with its main damage skill being a ground target 'skill shot' that you can avoid BY MOVING (not to say that you can always move out of vault zone, but it is to say that not every vault needs to be avoided by using endurance or cooldowns).Oh and here is a secret about vault: the evasion time does not cover the entire animation of the skill so you can hit the vaulting monkey at the very end of the vault, there is even a blue glow to telegraph the evasion frames of the skill so that you may have an easier time landing a cc.I fully agree that it is an annoying build but that does not make it good. The thing is that if you just randomly spam your own offensive skills at it most of them will miss, you have to time your cc and burst to fight the vault monkey. But this requires patients, knowledge of the evasion frames, skill canceling via weapon stowing in some cases, and damage avoidance via kiting, and i get the sense ppl who have major issues with vault monkeys don't exactly excel at any of these.

[Safandula.8723]

Can someone finally post build or video of this? I don't play pvp lately, and it's kinda hard to belive in wizard da/acro/drd

[Safandula.8723]

No no, I want that staff condi thief that few ppl are talking about, that's what is making me wonder

[Swagg.9236]

@"Widmo.3186" said:Oh another pls nerf teef thread? Lets be real...

Thief delenda est. It never belonged.

[Alatar.7364]

@Safandula.8723 said:No no, I want that staff condi thief that few ppl are talking about, that's what is making me wonder

I tried to make that work so hard after hearing about it.Its garbage.So ye, I too am waiting for that miraculous build to be revealed, perhaps I missed something.

[Abelisk.5148]

@"foste.3098" said:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAYVlNw6YbsFGJmaXbNbA-z5IeKZKE6VEkvEogFgJGA

I wager it is something like this. There are some possible changes such as dropping a utility for signet of agility, or retraiting trickery for the standard steal package, but i am 100% certain that he will take these traits in acro and daredevil (he may also use rune of the adventurer for maximum endurance generation).

Whatever the case this build has existed since HoT launch and was nerfed multiple times, just look at how many traits and skills have the ''this skill is different per game mode'' tag.The case remains that staff is clunky and predictable, reason it was good 4 years ago was because it dealt massive damage which was then nerfed.As Crab Fear said, the only change to staff builds from 4 years ago to now is that daradevil has access to weakness (outside of that godawful skill on staff) and that 2 traits got merged (1 of which was a minor aka you always had it).

Anyway even outside of staff daredevil can chain dodge with other weapons, with evasion kinda being a major theme of the spec. If you are dead set on nerfing staff i am all for it, a total rework would be nice to move the weapon from being a pve loot stick and a pvp meme to an actually allround weapon.

The BIGGEST change to staff/staff monkey daredevil is it can now wield condi cleanse on evade AND staff master trait. This has certainly broken the build.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Crab Fear.1624 @Alatar.7364 @Daishi.6027 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Psycoprophet.8107 @mortrialus.3062 @"mrauls.6519" @babazhook.6805 @Kageseigi.2150 @foste.3098 @Burnfall.9573 @Safandula.8723 @Tsuchinoko.7546 @Fat Disgrace.4275 @Tycura.1982 @KrHome.1920 @NecroSummonsMors.7816 @Whitworth.7259 @shadowpass.4236 @"saerni.2584"

Took me a bit. Haven't really been in the mood to record lately.

First I want to say that this build is the Staff/Shortbow Condi that people are talking about, but I actually vouched to take Single Pistol with no offhand over Staff. What is the difference? Well I can't stay in the middle of a team fight quite as long as Staff/SB Condi, but what I'm running has a lot more chase potential and ability to secure single target kills. As an old Ranger player, I prefer it that way.

Secondly I wanted to make clear why I posted this video, because this is a temporary video, and will be deleted when this thread is dead:

1. For purposes of debate in this thread.
2. To demonstrate the ridiculously low skill floor that this build possesses. It's debatable whether this is OP or not in high tier play, but 2 things are certain: It is THE lowest skill foor entry build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2, and it is strong as hell in an organized 5 man team built around condi stack spam cheese play.
3. I do not feel that Staff/Acro Power is a problem, or any Core/DE Acro variant. Survivability is fine when damage is harder to deal or land in general. I feel the problem here is within Deadly Arts poison application frequency and how Shortbow #4 Chocking Gas works in conjunction with it. Also, regardless of if one is using a Staff or Pistol with this, the poison application becomes broken. Remember what I mentioned in an earlier post about how beyond 100% poison uptime has a lot of "hidden damage" so to say. The -33% to heal is hidden damage proportionate to how much the target or targets are able to potentially heal. If you were attacking a Power Shiro that's not much, but while attacking something like a FB or a Tempest or a Holosmith, that permanent poison application that gets reapplied as soon as it's cleansed, is a lot of hidden damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHKbBIKwPw

Also want to point out that this build is just busted AF in WvW/PvE where Energy Sigils grant +50% endurance, Adventurer is +50% endurance, Sig of Agility is +100% endurance, Foods with +40% endurance regen, Choking Gas is still only 1s interval between Dazes, Access to these Sigils: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining <- actually click that and read what these no CD sigils do for you vs. mobs and large groups of players when you 1vX, and then of course perma AoE weaknes spam. You actually don't need any other weapon other than a Shrotbow with Absorption & Draining in it. You'll never want to swap off that Shortbow because what it is doing with Absorption/Draining is the most powerful kill/survival technique combined into one action, that a Condi Thief can potentially launch on another player. In PvE, this build can EASILY solo anything in the game, so long as it doesn't require mechanics like "4 players need to stand on 4 panels individually to open a door". Nothing in PvE can deal damage to this build. The mobs will stand in your poison pits perma dazing themselves and getting hit with Pulm Strike and the high condi damage in general. If they somehow get past the dazing, then they have perma Weakness spam on them. If they somehow get past the Weakness then the DD has permanent dodging and evading. And then every interrupt on every target, is STEALING 3 boons every time. What? Yup, that's happening. The pve gear stat version of this build can 1vX like no other.

~ Edit: Sorry about 480 upload. Not sure what YouTube did there. Normally it always uploads my videos at 1080. No idea what happened, but I'm not fixing this one because it's just a temp video. I suggest watching it in a smaller box instead of full screen. Looks less shitty that way.

[babazhook.6805]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Crab Fear.1624 @Alatar.7364 @Daishi.6027 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Psycoprophet.8107 @mortrialus.3062 @"mrauls.6519" @babazhook.6805 @Kageseigi.2150 @foste.3098 @Burnfall.9573 @Safandula.8723 @Tsuchinoko.7546 @Fat Disgrace.4275 @Tycura.1982 @KrHome.1920 @NecroSummonsMors.7816 @Whitworth.7259 @shadowpass.4236 @"saerni.2584"

Took me a bit. Haven't really been in the mood to record lately.

First I want to say that this build is the Staff/Shortbow Condi that people are talking about, but I actually vouched to take Single Pistol with no offhand over Staff. What is the difference? Well I can't stay in the middle of a team fight quite as long as Staff/SB Condi, but what I'm running has a lot more chase potential and ability to secure single target kills. As an old Ranger player, I prefer it that way.

Secondly I wanted to make clear why I posted this video, because this is a temporary video, and will be deleted when this thread is dead:

1. For purposes of debate in this thread.
2. To demonstrate the ridiculously low skill floor that this build possesses. It's debatable whether this is OP or not in high tier play, but 2 things are certain: It is THE lowest skill foor entry build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2, and it is strong as hell in an organized 5 man team built around condi stack spam cheese play.
3. I do not feel that Staff/Acro Power is a problem, or any Core/DE Acro variant. Survivability is fine when damage is harder to deal or land in general. I feel the problem here is within Deadly Arts poison application frequency and how Shortbow #4 Chocking Gas works in conjunction with it. Also, regardless of if one is using a Staff or Pistol with this, the poison application becomes broken. Remember what I mentioned in an earlier post about how beyond 100% poison uptime has a lot of "hidden damage" so to say. The -33% to heal is hidden damage proportionate to how much the target or targets are able to potentially heal. If you were attacking a Power Shiro that's not much, but while attacking something like a FB or a Tempest or a Holosmith, that permanent poison application that gets reapplied as soon as it's cleansed, is a lot of hidden damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHKbBIKwPw

Also want to point out that this build is just busted AF in WvW/PvE where Energy Sigils grant +50% endurance, Adventurer is +50% endurance, Sig of Agility is +100% endurance, Foods with +40% endurance regen, Choking Gas is still only 1s interval between Dazes, Access to these Sigils: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining <- actually click that and read what these no CD sigils do for you vs. mobs and large groups of players when you 1vX, and then of course perma AoE weaknes spam. You actually don't need any other weapon other than a Shrotbow with Absorption & Draining in it. You'll never want to swap off that Shortbow because what it is doing with Absorption/Draining is the most powerful kill/survival technique combined into one action, that a Condi Thief can potentially launch on another player. In PvE, this build can EASILY solo anything in the game, so long as it doesn't require mechanics like "4 players need to stand on 4 panels individually to open a door". Nothing in PvE can deal damage to this build. The mobs will stand in your poison pits perma dazing themselves and getting hit with Pulm Strike and the high condi damage in general. If they somehow get past the dazing, then they have perma Weakness spam on them. If they somehow get past the Weakness then the DD has permanent dodging and evading. And then every interrupt on every target, is STEALING 3 boons every time. What? Yup, that's happening. The pve gear stat version of this build can 1vX like no other.

Don't stand in the posion field. Any class that uses an AOE attack where the enemy just stands in that field will end up killing that enemy. I move out of Scourge fields when I see them or I die. I move out of a meteor strom or I die. It only if you stand in the field and continue to do so that those interrupts can happen or that poison get reapplied. If I am pew pewed by a ranger with his long bow and just stand there I die. The use of RF or the AA or Knockback on a longbow is not high skill.

Choking gas is 4 ini. 3 uses top and if they spam three fields they have no INI left for those endless evades you talk about. Allow a choking gas cast. move out of the field. Next to no damage taken, no boons lost.

The claim it low skill is no different then any other AOE type attack. They fire and forget.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"babazhook.6805" I don't know what to tell you man. The video posted is clearly demonstrating how these attacks are not so easily avoided as you seem to believe they are.

Furthermore, account wide MMR is placing me the same as if I were on my Ranger. So INB4 "Those guys are all Silver 1" At the worst, they're realistically anywhere from Gold 2s to maybe bottom Plats. And if you watch the times on the video clips, those are 3 games I recorded back to back today with nothing cut out. That isn't like choice footage over the course of a week and 60 games. It was a short project I did within about an hour.

[Burnfall.9573]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Crab Fear.1624 @Alatar.7364 @Daishi.6027 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Psycoprophet.8107 @mortrialus.3062 @"mrauls.6519" @babazhook.6805 @Kageseigi.2150 @foste.3098 @Burnfall.9573 @Safandula.8723 @Tsuchinoko.7546 @Fat Disgrace.4275 @Tycura.1982 @KrHome.1920 @NecroSummonsMors.7816 @Whitworth.7259 @shadowpass.4236 @"saerni.2584"

Took me a bit. Haven't really been in the mood to record lately.

First I want to say that this build is the Staff/Shortbow Condi that people are talking about, but I actually vouched to take Single Pistol with no offhand over Staff. What is the difference? Well I can't stay in the middle of a team fight quite as long as Staff/SB Condi, but what I'm running has a lot more chase potential and ability to secure single target kills. As an old Ranger player, I prefer it that way.

Secondly I wanted to make clear why I posted this video, because this is a temporary video, and will be deleted when this thread is dead:

1. For purposes of debate in this thread.
2. To demonstrate the ridiculously low skill floor that this build possesses. It's debatable whether this is OP or not in high tier play, but 2 things are certain: It is THE lowest skill foor entry build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2, and it is strong as hell in an organized 5 man team built around condi stack spam cheese play.
3. I do not feel that Staff/Acro Power is a problem, or any Core/DE Acro variant. Survivability is fine when damage is harder to deal or land in general. I feel the problem here is within Deadly Arts poison application frequency and how Shortbow #4 Chocking Gas works in conjunction with it. Also, regardless of if one is using a Staff or Pistol with this, the poison application becomes broken.
   Remember what I mentioned in an earlier post about how beyond 100% poison uptime has a lot of "hidden damage" so to say. The -33% to heal is hidden damage proportionate to how much the target or targets are able to potentially heal.
   If you were attacking a Power Shiro that's not much, but while attacking something like a FB or a Tempest or a Holosmith, that permanent poison application that gets reapplied as soon as it's cleansed, is a lot of hidden damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHKbBIKwPw

Also want to point out that this build is just busted AF in WvW/PvE where Energy Sigils grant +50% endurance, Adventurer is +50% endurance, Sig of Agility is +100% endurance, Foods with +40% endurance regen, Choking Gas is still only 1s interval between Dazes, Access to these Sigils:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption

and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining

<- actually click that and read what these no CD sigils do for you vs. mobs and large groups of players when you 1vX, and then of course perma AoE weaknes spam. You actually don't need any other weapon other than a Shrotbow with Absorption & Draining in it. You'll never want to swap off that Shortbow because what it is doing with Absorption/Draining is the most powerful kill/survival technique combined into one action, that a Condi Thief can potentially launch on another player. In PvE, this build can EASILY solo anything in the game, so long as it doesn't require mechanics like "4 players need to stand on 4 panels individually to open a door". Nothing in PvE can deal damage to this build. The mobs will stand in your poison pits perma dazing themselves and getting hit with Pulm Strike and the high condi damage in general. If they somehow get past the dazing, then they have perma Weakness spam on them. If they somehow get past the Weakness then the DD has permanent dodging and evading. And then every interrupt on every target, is STEALING 3 boons every time. What? Yup, that's happening. The pve gear stat version of this build can 1vX like no other.

Don't stand in the posion field. Any class that uses an AOE attack where the enemy just stands in that field will end up killing that enemy. I move out of Scourge fields when I see them or I die. I move out of a meteor strom or I die. It only if you stand in the field and continue to do so that those interrupts can happen or that poison get reapplied. If I am pew pewed by a ranger with his long bow and just stand there I die. The use of RF or the AA or Knockback on a longbow is not high skill.

Choking gas is 4 ini. 3 uses top and if they spam three fields they have no INI left for those endless evades you talk about. Allow a choking gas cast. move out of the field. Next to no damage taken, no boons lost.

The claim it low skill is no different then any other AOE type attack. They fire and forget.

'Don't deny what's obvious to see'

[Alatar.7364]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Crab Fear.1624 @Alatar.7364 @Daishi.6027 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Psycoprophet.8107 @mortrialus.3062 @"mrauls.6519" @babazhook.6805 @Kageseigi.2150 @foste.3098 @Burnfall.9573 @Safandula.8723 @Tsuchinoko.7546 @Fat Disgrace.4275 @Tycura.1982 @KrHome.1920 @NecroSummonsMors.7816 @Whitworth.7259 @shadowpass.4236 @"saerni.2584"

Took me a bit. Haven't really been in the mood to record lately.

First I want to say that this build is the Staff/Shortbow Condi that people are talking about, but I actually vouched to take Single Pistol with no offhand over Staff. What is the difference? Well I can't stay in the middle of a team fight quite as long as Staff/SB Condi, but what I'm running has a lot more chase potential and ability to secure single target kills. As an old Ranger player, I prefer it that way.

Secondly I wanted to make clear why I posted this video, because this is a temporary video, and will be deleted when this thread is dead:

1. For purposes of debate in this thread.
2. To demonstrate the ridiculously low skill floor that this build possesses. It's debatable whether this is OP or not in high tier play, but 2 things are certain: It is THE lowest skill foor entry build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2, and it is strong as hell in an organized 5 man team built around condi stack spam cheese play.
3. I do not feel that Staff/Acro Power is a problem, or any Core/DE Acro variant. Survivability is fine when damage is harder to deal or land in general. I feel the problem here is within Deadly Arts poison application frequency and how Shortbow #4 Chocking Gas works in conjunction with it. Also, regardless of if one is using a Staff or Pistol with this, the poison application becomes broken. Remember what I mentioned in an earlier post about how beyond 100% poison uptime has a lot of "hidden damage" so to say. The -33% to heal is hidden damage proportionate to how much the target or targets are able to potentially heal. If you were attacking a Power Shiro that's not much, but while attacking something like a FB or a Tempest or a Holosmith, that permanent poison application that gets reapplied as soon as it's cleansed, is a lot of hidden damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHKbBIKwPw

I am sorry but what is the deal with this video regarding the builds efficiency in PvP? I am not talking about whether you did good or not but in the video there was literally not a single moment where the build seemed as monstrous as you describe it to be. In Teamfights it is easily surpassed by any team-fighter or even any other meta-build in general. I don't really have anything else to say about the video, there was, with no offense, absolutely nothing unusual to see. No OP (or too strong) performance in 1v1s, no OP performance in teamfights (you even lost a 2v1 vs a Thief that had aready wasted his Shadowstep condi clense before it started) - at least definitely not compared to other professions, quite the opposite actually, it seemed like you (read: 'the build') did nothing significant until either Holo or Reaper or whatever came and blew the opponent away in seconds. Even at the time where the Scourge was afking in the node, not using a single dodge and just spamming Staff AA, you almost didn't make it. I am a bit confused because to me this video proved you completely wrong about the build, except its low skill-floor, but lets see what others have to say.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Crab Fear.1624 @Alatar.7364 @Daishi.6027 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Psycoprophet.8107 @mortrialus.3062 @"mrauls.6519" @babazhook.6805 @Kageseigi.2150 @foste.3098 @Burnfall.9573 @Safandula.8723 @Tsuchinoko.7546 @Fat Disgrace.4275 @Tycura.1982 @KrHome.1920 @NecroSummonsMors.7816 @Whitworth.7259 @shadowpass.4236 @"saerni.2584"

Took me a bit. Haven't really been in the mood to record lately.

First I want to say that this build is the Staff/Shortbow Condi that people are talking about, but I actually vouched to take Single Pistol with no offhand over Staff. What is the difference? Well I can't stay in the middle of a team fight quite as long as Staff/SB Condi, but what I'm running has a lot more chase potential and ability to secure single target kills. As an old Ranger player, I prefer it that way.

Secondly I wanted to make clear why I posted this video, because this is a temporary video, and will be deleted when this thread is dead:

1. For purposes of debate in this thread.
2. To demonstrate the ridiculously low skill floor that this build possesses. It's debatable whether this is OP or not in high tier play, but 2 things are certain: It is THE lowest skill foor entry build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2, and it is strong as hell in an organized 5 man team built around condi stack spam cheese play.
3. I do not feel that Staff/Acro Power is a problem, or any Core/DE Acro variant. Survivability is fine when damage is harder to deal or land in general. I feel the problem here is within Deadly Arts poison application frequency and how Shortbow #4 Chocking Gas works in conjunction with it. Also, regardless of if one is using a Staff or Pistol with this, the poison application becomes broken.
   Remember what I mentioned in an earlier post about how beyond 100% poison uptime has a lot of "hidden damage" so to say. The -33% to heal is hidden damage proportionate to how much the target or targets are able to potentially heal.
   If you were attacking a Power Shiro that's not much, but while attacking something like a FB or a Tempest or a Holosmith, that permanent poison application that gets reapplied as soon as it's cleansed, is a lot of hidden damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHKbBIKwPw

I am sorry but what is the deal with this video regarding the builds efficiency in PvP? I am not talking about whether you did good or not but in the video there was literally not a single moment where the build seemed as monstrous as you describe it to be. In Teamfights it is easily surpassed by any team-fighter or even any other meta-build in general. I don't really have anything else to say about the video, there was, with no offense,

absolutely

nothing unusual to see. No OP

(or too strong)

performance in 1v1s, no OP performance in teamfights

(you even lost a 2v1 vs a Thief that had aready wasted his Shadowstep condi clense before it started)

- at least definitely not compared to other professions, quite the opposite actually, it seemed like you

(read: 'the build')

did nothing significant until either Holo or Reaper or whatever came and blew the opponent away in seconds. Even at the time where the Scourge was afking in the node, not using

a single dodge

and just spamming Staff AA, you almost didn't make it. I am a bit confused because to me this video proved you completely wrong about the build, except its low skill-floor, but lets see what others have to say.

I agree, but are u new here? (Jking)Thief is not allowed to do anything that resembles good in a fight other than +1ING a half dead player or decapping for if it does the OP thief cries come pouring in lmao between them and mesmer I'd be surprised if anet even looks at these forums cuz man I'd get tiring lol.

[babazhook.6805]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"babazhook.6805" I don't know what to tell you man. The video posted is clearly demonstrating how these attacks are not so easily avoided as you seem to believe they are.

Furthermore, account wide MMR is placing me the same as if I were on my Ranger. So INB4 "Those guys are all Silver 1" At the worst, they're realistically anywhere from Gold 2s to maybe bottom Plats. And if you watch the times on the video clips, those are 3 games I recorded back to back today with nothing cut out. That isn't like choice footage over the course of a week and 60 games. It was a short project I did within about an hour.

I really could nto care less about the video and how the person in that video chooses to play against a choking gas field. I see Choking gas field I get out of the gas field just as I would any other field. Why is that so hard to do? If the person shown facing the Staff thiff could not b bothered to dodge , to move out of the field or use other mitigation measures other then stand in the field it is on him.

As others pointed out your video shows group fights, and very few one on ones. As such it a poor example to use of any build being OP.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Of course this applies to everyone and every class.

[duillyn.2697]

yplasmadosomuchthinkofpoormesme

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Alatar.7364 I think you're undervaluing the idea here that I am able to do what I am doing in the video, as a someone who doesn't play Thief, ever. The 160 or so games I have played on Thief is over the course of 7 years. In maybe the past week, I've played about 15 to 20 games on Thief while practicing that build and that's it. If I were an actual Thief player, I could wield this build to a much stronger degree. I guess that's what I was pointing out with the video. Also, what people are running for Staff/Condi, but they switch Pulm Impact for the 1 trait, which does +240 power with a staff. I also don't think you watched the video very closely. There are two parts where I win 1v2s easily without being hit at all. On other classes, this is difficult to do and requires a high level of skill, even against gold 3 opponents. But on this Daredevil build, you can pretty much play 100% defensively and kill 2 players with attrition alone, even if you suck on the class.

@"babazhook.6805" You keep focusing your argument on things that are simply not true or that are almost entirely ignorant. Example: Now you're saying: "I see Choking gas field I get out of the gas field just as I would any other field. Why is that so hard to do? If the person shown facing the Staff thiff could not b bothered to dodge , to move out of the field or use other mitigation measures other then stand in the field it is on him." As if it didn't once occur to you, "How do you hit the Thief if you are always standing outside of Choking Gas Fields?" Well I guess you had better be a Ranger or a Deadeye if you want to stay out of those Choking Gas Fields and still have kill opportunity vs. the Condi Daredevil. As far as not featuring too many 1v1s, not sure what you're talking about. There are plenty in that video, including 1v2s. And yeah, that build is a Thief team fight build. That's kind of the point of it my good knowledgeable bro.

@"Crab Fear.1624" lol, it's a good meme. But you can't really apply that to my situation here, where I have been playing this build for the past week. I'm not just talking about this from the standpoint of vs. it. I'm giving this feedback from the standpoint of playing as it. For all of the expertise I possess within the spectrum of Ranger builds over the course of 8,000 games or so, I am able to log into this Condi Daredevil and easily play & keep up at my account wide MMR level, with absolutely no problems at all. I'm starting to wonder if I am stronger on this build, than I am on any Ranger build. Of course this isn't because "I somehow possess amazing natural skill on a Thief" no, it's because this Daredevil build's attribute tied strengths are much stronger than any build Ranger has to offer right now.

I think you guys sometimes take it the wrong way when I'm providing everyone something to look at. I'm not saying "nerf thief into the ground" but I am saying that Deadly Arts is pumping out too much poison spam.

It also seems like you guys forget the idea of stopping the power creep instead of increasing it. What we needed was nerfs to what was already acknowledged as OP, not more super buffs.

[Safandula.8723]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Crab Fear.1624 @Alatar.7364 @Daishi.6027 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Psycoprophet.8107 @mortrialus.3062 @"mrauls.6519" @babazhook.6805 @Kageseigi.2150 @foste.3098 @Burnfall.9573 @Safandula.8723 @Tsuchinoko.7546 @Fat Disgrace.4275 @Tycura.1982 @KrHome.1920 @NecroSummonsMors.7816 @Whitworth.7259 @shadowpass.4236 @"saerni.2584"

Took me a bit. Haven't really been in the mood to record lately.

First I want to say that this build is the Staff/Shortbow Condi that people are talking about, but I actually vouched to take Single Pistol with no offhand over Staff. What is the difference? Well I can't stay in the middle of a team fight quite as long as Staff/SB Condi, but what I'm running has a lot more chase potential and ability to secure single target kills. As an old Ranger player, I prefer it that way.

Secondly I wanted to make clear why I posted this video, because this is a temporary video, and will be deleted when this thread is dead:

1. For purposes of debate in this thread.
2. To demonstrate the ridiculously low skill floor that this build possesses. It's debatable whether this is OP or not in high tier play, but 2 things are certain: It is THE lowest skill foor entry build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2, and it is strong as hell in an organized 5 man team built around condi stack spam cheese play.
3. I do not feel that Staff/Acro Power is a problem, or any Core/DE Acro variant. Survivability is fine when damage is harder to deal or land in general. I feel the problem here is within Deadly Arts poison application frequency and how Shortbow #4 Chocking Gas works in conjunction with it. Also, regardless of if one is using a Staff or Pistol with this, the poison application becomes broken. Remember what I mentioned in an earlier post about how beyond 100% poison uptime has a lot of "hidden damage" so to say. The -33% to heal is hidden damage proportionate to how much the target or targets are able to potentially heal. If you were attacking a Power Shiro that's not much, but while attacking something like a FB or a Tempest or a Holosmith, that permanent poison application that gets reapplied as soon as it's cleansed, is a lot of hidden damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHKbBIKwPw

Also want to point out that this build is just busted AF in WvW/PvE where Energy Sigils grant +50% endurance, Adventurer is +50% endurance, Sig of Agility is +100% endurance, Foods with +40% endurance regen, Choking Gas is still only 1s interval between Dazes, Access to these Sigils: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining <- actually click that and read what these no CD sigils do for you vs. mobs and large groups of players when you 1vX, and then of course perma AoE weaknes spam. You actually don't need any other weapon other than a Shrotbow with Absorption & Draining in it. You'll never want to swap off that Shortbow because what it is doing with Absorption/Draining is the most powerful kill/survival technique combined into one action, that a Condi Thief can potentially launch on another player. In PvE, this build can EASILY solo anything in the game, so long as it doesn't require mechanics like "4 players need to stand on 4 panels individually to open a door". Nothing in PvE can deal damage to this build. The mobs will stand in your poison pits perma dazing themselves and getting hit with Pulm Strike and the high condi damage in general. If they somehow get past the dazing, then they have perma Weakness spam on them. If they somehow get past the Weakness then the DD has permanent dodging and evading. And then every interrupt on every target, is STEALING 3 boons every time. What? Yup, that's happening. The pve gear stat version of this build can 1vX like no other.

~ Edit: Sorry about 480 upload. Not sure what YouTube did there. Normally it always uploads my videos at 1080. No idea what happened, but I'm not fixing this one because it's just a temp video. I suggest watching it in a smaller box instead of full screen. Looks less kitten that way.

imo this build is worse than condi s/d by dmg and mobility. Survivability prolly as well but bit kind to compare. i wanted to see staff condi, so im disappointed :(

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Crab Fear.1624 @Alatar.7364 @Daishi.6027 @Azure The Heartless.3261 @Psycoprophet.8107 @mortrialus.3062 @"mrauls.6519" @babazhook.6805 @Kageseigi.2150 @foste.3098 @Burnfall.9573 @Safandula.8723 @Tsuchinoko.7546 @Fat Disgrace.4275 @Tycura.1982 @KrHome.1920 @NecroSummonsMors.7816 @Whitworth.7259 @shadowpass.4236 @"saerni.2584"

Took me a bit. Haven't really been in the mood to record lately.

First I want to say that this build is the Staff/Shortbow Condi that people are talking about, but I actually vouched to take Single Pistol with no offhand over Staff. What is the difference? Well I can't stay in the middle of a team fight quite as long as Staff/SB Condi, but what I'm running has a lot more chase potential and ability to secure single target kills. As an old Ranger player, I prefer it that way.

Secondly I wanted to make clear why I posted this video, because this is a temporary video, and will be deleted when this thread is dead:

1. For purposes of debate in this thread.
2. To demonstrate the ridiculously low skill floor that this build possesses. It's debatable whether this is OP or not in high tier play, but 2 things are certain: It is THE lowest skill foor entry build that has ever existed in Guild Wars 2, and it is strong as hell in an organized 5 man team built around condi stack spam cheese play.
3. I do not feel that Staff/Acro Power is a problem, or any Core/DE Acro variant. Survivability is fine when damage is harder to deal or land in general. I feel the problem here is within Deadly Arts poison application frequency and how Shortbow #4 Chocking Gas works in conjunction with it. Also, regardless of if one is using a Staff or Pistol with this, the poison application becomes broken.
   Remember what I mentioned in an earlier post about how beyond 100% poison uptime has a lot of "hidden damage" so to say. The -33% to heal is hidden damage proportionate to how much the target or targets are able to potentially heal.
   If you were attacking a Power Shiro that's not much, but while attacking something like a FB or a Tempest or a Holosmith, that permanent poison application that gets reapplied as soon as it's cleansed, is a lot of hidden damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGHKbBIKwPw

Also want to point out that this build is just busted AF in WvW/PvE where Energy Sigils grant +50% endurance, Adventurer is +50% endurance, Sig of Agility is +100% endurance, Foods with +40% endurance regen, Choking Gas is still only 1s interval between Dazes, Access to these Sigils:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Absorption

and

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Superior_Sigil_of_Draining

<- actually click that and read what these no CD sigils do for you vs. mobs and large groups of players when you 1vX, and then of course perma AoE weaknes spam. You actually don't need any other weapon other than a Shrotbow with Absorption & Draining in it. You'll never want to swap off that Shortbow because what it is doing with Absorption/Draining is the most powerful kill/survival technique combined into one action, that a Condi Thief can potentially launch on another player. In PvE, this build can EASILY solo anything in the game, so long as it doesn't require mechanics like "4 players need to stand on 4 panels individually to open a door". Nothing in PvE can deal damage to this build. The mobs will stand in your poison pits perma dazing themselves and getting hit with Pulm Strike and the high condi damage in general. If they somehow get past the dazing, then they have perma Weakness spam on them. If they somehow get past the Weakness then the DD has permanent dodging and evading. And then every interrupt on every target, is STEALING 3 boons every time. What? Yup, that's happening. The pve gear stat version of this build can 1vX like no other.

~ Edit: Sorry about 480 upload. Not sure what YouTube did there. Normally it always uploads my videos at 1080. No idea what happened, but I'm not fixing this one because it's just a temp video. I suggest watching it in a smaller box instead of full screen. Looks less kitten that way.

imo this build is worse than condi s/d by dmg and mobility. Survivability prolly as well but bit kind to compare. i wanted to see staff condi, so im disappointed :(

I just finished filming some staff condi games. I am going to upload the gameplay lol.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Safandula.8723 It is the Staff Condi, but with a Pistol over Staff. If I had been running Staff, it just allows me to troll nodes longer, build up endurance faster = more sustain while staying engaged. I didn't deem Staff as worth it while running condi, which is why I started using Pistol. It seems to already have plenty of sustain.