It's Time To Let Go of This Most Useless Character

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 26, 2019

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:There is nothing to understand, there is no right or wrong, it is nothing to do with thinking as a human other than I am one (at least me ole ma said so).. it is just another example of people being different in how they handle things, how they progress or digress.. why should they be written to act the same way when in real life that doesn't happen, no matter what race, sex, colour or creed you are.Just because he is Norn doesn't mean anything other than there are some very stereotypical things we associate with that race and they kinda used them in this particular piece of the story arc to help further its narrative.Sigh...That's one of my points - if there are any stereotypes we associate with Norns, Anet
didn't
use them with Braham. In order to "help further the arc's narrative", they tried to make Braham as far from being Norn as it is possible. Well, they did use
one
stereotype - "norns like to drink" - but it was used only in an extremely negative way.

There's a reason why from the very first moment he appeared in GW2, back in LS1, people were asking if Borje the Sun Chaser is really his father, and whether he is half-human by any chance (no matter how much Anet kept insisting that mixed race children simply do not exist).

See, I see alot more than "the Norn is drunk" thing.. I see charr trying to take advantage of those Norn stereotypes.. the love of ale, the pride "Is that a challenge" and then the fisty cuffs... all used to play into the distraction for Ryland to steal the bow.... seems about fitting for a young inexperienced Norn who is still trying to find his way in the world. The use of drunken banter is nothing more than that or maybe ANET have opened a little bit of Braham up, maybe being drunk has allowed some of that truth serum to bring out a bit of Braham that he has been struggling to come to terms with... is that not unlike what many people go through growing up even after reaching adulthood.

Or are we all just trying to read way more into some small detail in what is only the prologue of a new LS chapter... errmm SAGA.

perilisk.1874 · September 26, 2019

Eh, I like Braham. I didn't like LS3 Braham, but mostly because I never really bought any of it as legitimate character development. It was jarring and unjustified, and so I blame the writers instead of the character.

Astralporing.1957 · September 26, 2019

@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:Or are we all just trying to read way more into some small detail in what is only the prologue of a new LS chapter... errmm SAGA.Don;t consider this chapter alone. Think about how he is being presented since he first appeared in LS1. I mean, even when they show us his "norn" sides, it is being done in such a way that those traits are exagerrated and ridiculed. He is fearless? That's not because he's brave - it's because he's stupid. He is proud? Nope, just stubborn (and, again, stupid). He rises to the challenge? that was just goading, and he is so easy to goad. Like a Norn, he drinks a lot? Maybe, but he's a lightweight and can't hold the liquor. His whole presentation since the first year of the game is overwhelmingly negative.

When Anet uses most other characters to move the story along, they do it in such a way, that those characters for the most part, at the very least don't look worse for it. In case of Braham, he always does.

perilisk.1874 · September 26, 2019

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:Or are we all just trying to read way more into some small detail in what is only the prologue of a new LS chapter... errmm SAGA.Don;t consider this chapter alone. Think about how he is being presented
since he first appeared in LS1
. I mean, even when they show us his "norn" sides, it is being done in such a way that those traits are exagerrated and ridiculed. He is fearless? That's not because he's brave - it's because he's stupid. He is proud? Nope, just stubborn (and, again, stupid). He rises to the challenge? that was just goading, and he is so easy to goad. Like a Norn, he drinks a lot? Maybe, but he's a lightweight and can't hold the liquor. His whole presentation since the first year of the game is overwhelmingly negative.

When Anet uses most other characters to move the story along, they do it in such a way, that those characters for the most part, at the very least don't look worse for it. In case of Braham, he

always

does.

Haven't they done that pretty broadly with the Norn, though?

Asuran.5469 · September 26, 2019

I like Braham.

Braham is the only character who's motives really truly fully line up with that of the commander.

When other characters would have a reason to split or go do something else, Braham would still be there.

Braham is your Samwise. Get used to it. Appreciate it.

Bloodstealer.5978 · September 26, 2019

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Bloodstealer.5978" said:Or are we all just trying to read way more into some small detail in what is only the prologue of a new LS chapter... errmm SAGA.Don;t consider this chapter alone. Think about how he is being presented
since he first appeared in LS1
. I mean, even when they show us his "norn" sides, it is being done in such a way that those traits are exagerrated and ridiculed. He is fearless? That's not because he's brave - it's because he's stupid. He is proud? Nope, just stubborn (and, again, stupid). He rises to the challenge? that was just goading, and he is so easy to goad. Like a Norn, he drinks a lot? Maybe, but he's a lightweight and can't hold the liquor. His whole presentation since the first year of the game is overwhelmingly negative.

When Anet uses most other characters to move the story along, they do it in such a way, that those characters for the most part, at the very least don't look worse for it. In case of Braham, he

always

does.

I think many of us already commented on how we feel Braham is portrayed through his whole time within the story not just this particular instalment... it's just this time he is the character that has been utilised to forward a particularly important piece of the narrative, which we do not see unveiled until the last cut scenesAs for his traits... yes he tries to be brave and indeed comes across as foolish... didn't we all do something's similar when we were young and impetuous, jumping in without thinking, trying to be something more than we just aren't ready to be.

Pride and stubbornes kinda work hand in hand especially in someone so obviously feeling pressured to walk in more famous shoes whilst striving to find their own place in the big wide worldAs for being goaded... of course he was, and now the final cutscenes have revealed the plot a little more clearly, for me at least it seems perfectable acceptable for ANET to of used and impressed upon those stereotypical Norn traits.

Could this of been done differently... sureWould it of been any better to go about it differently.... who can tellHas this encouraged players to discuss the writing and the Braham character more deeply than just we love or hate him ... yep and thats not a bad thing imo.It also highlights just how we as players can see things differently, even when the subject matter is purely fictional and limited in scope.

Would the story be any better with or without Braham... again who knows, it's not a perfect story for more reasons than just Brahams often infuriating character flawes... but what makes it perfect is kinda down to how we as individuals choose to make it no matter if it was written by a primary school student or a Tolkien esc literary master.

Astralporing.1957 · September 26, 2019

@Asuran.5469 said:I like Braham.
Braham is the only character who's motives really truly fully line up with that of the commander.
When other characters would have a reason to split or go do something else, Braham would still be there.Yeah, sure, he never decided to split with us at any point of the story...oh wait
@perilisk.1874 said:
@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:Or are we all just trying to read way more into some small detail in what is only the prologue of a new LS chapter... errmm SAGA.Don;t consider this chapter alone. Think about how he is being presented
since he first appeared in LS1
. I mean, even when they show us his "norn" sides, it is being done in such a way that those traits are exagerrated and ridiculed. He is fearless? That's not because he's brave - it's because he's stupid. He is proud? Nope, just stubborn (and, again, stupid). He rises to the challenge? that was just goading, and he is so easy to goad. Like a Norn, he drinks a lot? Maybe, but he's a lightweight and can't hold the liquor. His whole presentation since the first year of the game is overwhelmingly negative.

When Anet uses most other characters to move the story along, they do it in such a way, that those characters for the most part, at the very least don't look worse for it. In case of Braham, he

always

does.

Haven't they done that pretty broadly with the Norn, though?Yes. All the more reason for me to dislike what's going on.

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:It's one thing when something like this happens once to a character, in order to further develop their personality. It's something else when

only

things like that happen.

Blockhead Magee.3092 · September 26, 2019

The most useless character imaginable and the one who needs to go away, die or otherwise disappear forever is Taimi. No other NPC we have to deal with is as annoying and story crushing as that waste of pixels. Braham isn't even a tenth as bad.

Kossage.9072 · September 26, 2019

I like Braham, and I can understand the need to fridge Eir and why she seemed relatively helpless in the cutscene (which was explained by Matthew Medina to be because of exhaustion, starvation, blood loss, torture etc. at the hands of the Mordrem Guard which they couldn't depict properly because of the game's T rating) even though I wish she'd gone out in a more savage norn way fighting against a bigger, recurring foe (if that Vinetooth had become an antagonist throughout the HoT saga to hound us while Faolain would've been our reluctant tagalong for most of the story to flesh her out a bit). What I didn't like about Braham's tantrum in Season 3 was the fact that it went against established lore from HoT with no foreshadowing whatsoever. After defeating Mordremoth, we get to have a chat with Braham, and this is what he says:

Braham: Another victory! They're adding up. Jormag's next on the docket, right?
Player: A little rest might be in order first, don't you think?
Braham: Rest? I'm not resting until all the Elder Dragons are dead. Eir helped you kill Zhaitan. It's up to me to help you take down the rest. I see that now, and I'm ready.
Player: Eir would be proud of you. But, we have to rest before charging back in.
Braham: We have a good guild. There's nothing we can't do if we put our minds to it. I suppose we've earned a little break, but hopefully not too long.
Player: I'm sure trouble will find us before too much time has passed, my friend.

In this conversation Braham shows no sign of hostility towards the Commander about their stalling being the indirect cause of Eir's demise. Braham considers us a friend, and our guild a good guild. Even if he'd be annoyed at the Commander just ditching Destiny's Edge to found Dragon's Watch (which really doesn't make sense because the Commander should've honored Eir's legacy by keeping the guild alive and just adding the Biconics into its roster; I doubt Rytlock would've objected to that yet the whole guild change is his idea to begin with), his anger at the Commander as shown in Season 3 Episode 3 and his other actions as implied in Season 3 Episode 1 (not bothering to go save Garm so Rox had to do it, and not attending Eir's memorial to honor her legend) just don't add up especially when we consider that it's several months between Braham leaving the jungle in HoT and reuniting with the Commander in A Crack in the Ice. I understand that the meta reason for Braham's tantrum was to drag him, Garm and Rox away from the Commander in an overarching plot to leave the Commander alone by the time it came to travel to Elona to confront Balthazar (luckily we still had surprising but welcome additions of Kas, Canach and Rytlock because otherwise the Commander would just have needed to wing it by themself).

The only plausible reason I could think of for Braham's odd 180 and anger issues would be related to potential toxic influence from his norn buddies who'd eventually found the new Destiny's Edge guild with him (maybe those buddies planted this seed of resentment in his head for their own purposes to discredit the Commander), and Braham being alone in the north to fight Icebrood for so long between HoT and S3 that it could've affected his psyche. Maybe Drakkar or Jormag tried to subtly manipulate him to fuel his anger, sensing in him a suitable addition to their roster of champions, but that manipulation didn't have time to go anywhere when Balthazar's intervention stalled whatever Jormag was after. I hope this gets explored somewhat (and at least we'll get to meet at least some of Braham's norn guildies based on the dialogue in Bound by Blood) and we learn that something more insidious could be at work by Episode 1 of the Icebrood Saga.

@thepenmonster.3621 said:
@"ScyeRynn.4218" said:This is one of the most silly things in Braham's journey that they came up with. Braham sets out to liberate Craigstead and rebuild it for these people including his love interest. But she leaves him because she doesn't think he's going anywhere in his life.

We're both talking about Rox, right?

While players have been joking about Rox being Braham's girlfriend, they've only ever been friends (almost like a sister-brother kind of closeness) with no sexual attraction implied whatsoever. Curiously we haven't even had any hints of charr-norn romantic relationships in core game either; the closest we have are charr and norn being "bros" and that charr wouldn't mind sharing Ascalon with norn:

Citizen (1): I'm glad we have those norn on our side. We're going to need their help.
Citizen (2): After we push back the Flame Legion, they're the ones I'd like to share land with.

As for the girlfriend reference, ScyeRynn is actually referring to Braham's canonical would-be girlfriend Ottilia from Season 1. She liked Braham but came to realize he wouldn't amount to anything (even after he had rescued her from the Molten Facility) so she dediced to dump him and go travel the world with the fur trader Ebbe. Poor Braham was so heartbroken that he had to go bash things in the Crown Pavilion with Rox consoling her and calling Ottilia a harpy. I'll never forget the moment Ottilia revealed her true colours to the oblivious Braham:

Braham: I thought maybe, if you want, we could go to Wolf's shrine together today.
Ottilia: No, thanks. I went earlier and took all my gifts for Wolf then.
Braham: Well, maybe we could eat together this evening? The weather is fair.
Ottilia: I don't think so. I'm going with Ebbe. He's a merchant, and he sells furs in all the cities. What do you do?
Braham: I...what?
Ottilia: Exactly. Enjoy growing old in Cragstead like all the others. I'll send news of my travels. Promise!

I'd love to see Ottilia and Ebbe appear in, say, the Vigil outpost where Braham's norn guild should be hanging out it. Imagine Ottilia and Braham reuniting after all this time and how Ottilia may have heard about Braham's accomplishments against a lich and two Elder Dragons. In a way it would be a bittersweet reunion as Braham remembers the past he once had and how much he's grown from those youthful, oblivious days into a hero in his own right with new friends to support him. I could just imagine Ottilia now swooning over Braham and attempting to worm herself back into his graces now that he's famous, and Braham could finally say "no" to her and no longer dance to her tune unlike what he did in the past. That, then, would heal Braham's old wounds of love and let him be open to truly pursue new relationships, possibly with Jhavi Jorasdottir.

In norn tradition it's somewhat frowned upon for norn to mate with norn of lesser legend, and thus Braham would have an extremely hard time to find a girlfriend given his list of impressive accomplishments which few norn's legends can match. Jhavi, meanwhile, is one of the few female norn who would have a weighty enough legacy (thanks to Jora) and a legend to build so that she could feasibly become Braham's partner...if she ever was into Braham, that is. As a busy Vigil leader (and likely one of Almorra's oldest allies) she has her hands full with other battles...at least until Bangar and/or Jormag come knocking.

I would also be intrigued to see Braham being tempted by the Raven witch Vilnia Shadowsong who, thanks to her mesmerisms fooling those trying to kill her in a dynamic event, is still somewhere out there killing children in her blood rituals. It would be nice for Vilnia to be the link that connects Braham and Jhavi in the end; while Vilnia tries to seduce Braham for her own purposes to continue shedding blood (perhaps initially appearing as a kind shaman to aid Braham in his quest until she reveals her true colors), Jhavi would have to confront Raven's teachings to find a way to defeat this Raven witch as a yin-yang conflict (with Jhavi representing the orderly side of Raven while Vilnia represents the chaotic side). I always found Vilnia a fascinating antagonist as she shows how the Spirits' teachings can be abused even without falling under Jormag's thrall, and that it's up to each and every follower of this or that Spirit to learn to control their impulses and aim to master the Spirits' wisdom in a way that benefits society rather than abusing others to get what you want.

I look forward to seeing where Braham's arc takes him, and if he'll finally get some heart-to-heart talk with Wolf now that he's mostly embraced his pack again. Hopefully this means we'll see Garm return as well for one last battle against Jormag because I'd be sad if the old wolf was retired forever (especially when devs teased us back in the day that there's a story waiting to be told about how Eir and Garm met, why Garm chose Eir as his alpha, and what happened to the rest of Garm's dire wolf pack). :)

Psientist.6437 · September 26, 2019

Braham was moments away from using his bow to strike the killing blow to Jormag. He now loses that bow in a bar. The reduction in competency and agency is obvious. The community demanded they infantilize Braham, that they punish him for his lack of respect and the studio obliged. His character arc is more of a squiggle aimed to bring him back into the community's graces as an obedient and unthreatening puppy. Braham letting his hair down is just a euphemism for incompetent.

Tazer.2157 · September 26, 2019

@"ScyeRynn.4218" said:It's clear that Anet is unable to let go of their obsession with Braham. The most unlikable, useless character in their story and after years of players asking to get rid of him and stop wasting time and development on him what do they do? They devote and waste even more on him.
Trying so hard to make Braham humorous and silly to make him likable so that we somehow forget just how bad of a character he is. Creating moments where our character is dumbed-down in order to have Braham appear out of nowhere to save us from falling rubble, when we'd just dodge it or would be smart enough to not even stand there in the first place.
Braham is not funny. He's not interesting. He's irritating as fudge. All his lines are cringy and trying to make him seem funny by making him drunk with slurred speech is just desperate and unneeded.
Canach is funny. Intelligent. Interesting. Helpful. Taimi, as annoying as she is with her polarized emotions and 0 to 100 way of speaking, she can be pretty humorous and is at least interesting. She is one of the most helpful and essential characters in this story.
Braham is not and never will be. He's just a heavily-forced, ruined, unnecessary, Marvel-movie stereotypical character that should have been gone LONG ago. Everything about him is inauthentic at this point. But he's kept around because Anet still believes he is "redeemable".
It's like when they used to put parsley or even inedible garnishes on your plate at restaurants. It's forced, fake, and unnecessary and just needs to be taken out. Braham would have been better off killed in the place of his mother. I'd rather have Eir here with us at this point in the story. But you killed her off early in the HoT story...
Please for the love of the Five, stop with Braham already. Enough. All you are doing is bringing down a story that just started getting back up to the level of interest it used to have.

Stop crying. I like Braham. I like the drunken slob that he is. Just because you dislike a character it does not mean that the character should be removed from the game. Last time I checked we aren't in North Korea where we ban everything we do not like. You obviously have not played the norn starter zone mission where you have the chance to get drunk and wake up after a hangover. Braham fits the Norn's love for drinking.

Devildoc.6721 · September 26, 2019

@Julia Nardin.9824 said:
@"Mewcifer.5198" said:Hear me out a second:I felt like the drunk-dialing was actually sort of good writing.
It let us know that Ryland was with Braham every step of the way. It let us know just how drunk he had gotten. It showed us Ryland encouraging him to drink. It showed us Ryland encouraging a fight. It told us the story of why Braham was in jail, rather than just having us be called to go get him. Which might not seem important to really know until later, when we realize that Ryland took his bow. The whole thing was a set up. But because people were so annoyed at the "omg Braham is drunk on the intercom" "omg Braham threw up and I am uncomfortable" they never stopped to think about how Ryland was behaving or what it might mean. It was information we needed later cleverly disguised as nothing more than a "lol this guy is drunk" gag.

That's true! Every line of dialogue between Ryland and Braham serves a purpose! Braham's young, he's gregarious, he's still high on life after killing Kralkatorrik. The celebration is a great opportunity to celebrate in lieu of a moot. He was an easy mark for Ryland. I like to think Ryland genuinely started to befriend Braham by the time he was ready to steal the bow -- they have a lot in common, after all -- but orders are orders, and Braham's not charr.

We framed it the way we did so it didn't feel ominous or on the nose. It's one of those things we wanted people to notice in hindsight rather than in the moment. Ryland is

really

interested in that Jormag story...

Yeah it was pretty easy to pick up that Ryland was using Braham somehow and it had to do with Jormag. But it also sets up Ryland to be a redeemable character that they were kind of being buddies, if it wasn't for the orders. It was also interesting to hear more candidly what Braham was up to while he was gone, rather than just the synopsis of "he made a guild tried to beat Jormag and failed"

ScyeRynn.4218 · September 27, 2019

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:The character provokes emotions in people. That alone is enough of a reason to keep him.
I was no fan of Braham, even less after his tantrum in LWS3. In hindsight I have to say, I get where the authors were coming from, and any one who has lost someone close they loved might too. Was it narratively given enough room? Maybe not.
As far as Brahams bumbling and drunkeness this epilogue, all I have to ask people who gelt embarassed: have you been sober around drunk people?
Ask yourself, were you embarassed due to the acting and writing, or because Braham in character and context of the world was embarassing your squad? The second case would mean the authors got it right.

Actually, it's not. Having a character around solely for "evoking emotions" is the equivalent of a caricature or stock character and that is exactly the kind of one-dimenstional character a proper story does NOT need, unless it's not meant to be taken seriously.

Well I disagree and given how one of your other points was that Braham was rewritten multiple times, I fail to see how he can be one dimensional.

Is he comedic relief in this prologue? Sure, while staying in character and lore. He is a Norn which like to boast and drink. He was celebrating a recebt victory. He has slowly overcome his issues of loss.

You might not like the character, maybe because drunk people annoy you, as you mentioned. But from a writing perspective Braham has seen more developement than most other characters and given the direction of the story, he is fitting to be represented.

A proper character would never need to be rewritten. Characters go through arcs, journeys, and development, but they should never be rewritten. That's like giving Taimi Rytlocks gruff personality or making Faren the Commander. It's only funny when it's not taken seriously or a lasting change in the story. Rewriting a character is not the same as proper character development.

"You might not like the character, maybe because drunk people annoy you, as you mentioned."

Did I? Where did I mention that?

Sounds more like you felt personally offended by your own assumption.

Nope, merely me mixing up two different replies. My bad.

On everything else: that's your subjective opinion and obviously other players feel differently on this matter.

You are ofcorse free to rant and complain as much as you want. The story and production of content is far along further than what we as players see, often as far as 1 year in advance for recording of voice lines. As such, the realization of your desire is pretty much 0, so the point of implementation is moot.

This post is an absolute mess.

I'll make it simple:The voice and dialogue is recorded, the general plot is writen. You are barking up the wrong tree.

That is completely ignoring that obviously not all players feel the same as you about Braham.

No, I understood everything you had posted. The mess is in how redundant, silly, uninformed, and illogical it is.

ScyeRynn.4218 · September 27, 2019

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@"Mewcifer.5198" said:I think that just because a character creates tension or rubs people the wrong way, it doesn't mean they need to be gotten rid of.

That's not what is being said here. Braham being conflicting isn't the problem. There are many characters in the story that conflict with the Commander and the missions and the other characters. It's about the execution and arc of Braham. It's about how Braham isn't being developed in a way that is authentic, significant, or necessary to the story other than as a way to redeem him.

They "180'd" his character at least two times already, more than any other character because he is not a true character. He's a playing card meant to serve a purpose. Whether it's to be an ally who conflicts with the commander or the comedic relief. He's currently serving as the caricature sidekick just for forced-humor. He adds nothing significant or essential to the actual story.

Saying "oh but he has been by the commander's side for many episodes!" is missing the fact that he was placed there recently and purposefully to put that idea in your head that Braham is now essential and not the annoying, useless, complaining character he was just prior. It's to make up for that. But they didn't even do that right. They decided to force down our throats that he's also now suddenly a highly comedic, buddy-buddy partner for the Commander.

He may become useful in the Norn part of the upcoming story, but that should have been his story thus far. Instead everything till now has been filler or unnecessary conflict that went no where.

Braham used to be a rising hero and an interesting character. He wasn't a whiny brat or a clown when we were first introduced to him. Then the commander took over much of the journey they had planned for him and instead of giving him a proper journey of his own, they decided to make him the tag-along group member with a grudge.

Wow slow down... remember this is a fantasy world and meant to have multi facets in its story telling, which in turn provide opportunities to branch or switch up all whilst creating the opportunity for players to explore them, cuss them or love them... there is no actual right or wrong except from your own personal viewpoint.Don't get me wrong I am not a Braham fanboi either as I've already said, but your not the voice of LS or do you have some sixth sense that can tell us what is in store for the character or any character cos from where I am sitting I can see the IBS being reasonably meaningful in context when considering both Braham and Rytlock, I also feel Rox could of had an uptick in character here as well but well it doesn't look like it.

" It's about how Braham isn't being developed in a way that is authentic, significant, or necessary to the story other than as a way to redeem him. "I will be honest here and say I find this a little strange considering he is just one cog in a larger machine.. also consider the depth the narrative team are able to go to in the time and cost constraints they have upon them. I would hazard a guess they could of, would of, should of expanded Braham and other character so much more every chapter and likely did, but there will always be a need to edit out, shorten and change directions in an effort to get it all ready in time for the big reveals..Hopefully its not a sprint for this character or any of them, its a marathon

Multi-facets doesn't mean you choose multi-ranges of quality. That is just silly. You strive for the best quality you can achieve within the parameters you have or you concede that it's lesser than what it could and/or should be.

If Anet had the Predator alien from AVP suddenly appear from the skies and kill your character without any explanation and then have that change the entire course of your story, would you consider that right or wrong in the context of quality and natural story progression? There are clear right and wrongs in storytelling principles. That "Predator" scenario would be hilarious, but it would be wrong in this story. Braham going from William Wallace in Braveheart to Hayden Christensen's Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars to Tom Holland's Spiderman is not only unfunny, it's also wrong in terms of natural, fitting story-telling progression.

All those constraints do not equate to poor-quality writing being necessary. That just sounds like an unconnected excuse. In those same constraints, they could have written more suitable, interesting, and authentic scenes with Braham.

Except ANET haven't done any of that. They have simply allowed a character with obvious flawes to begin to mature and in doing so they are using both his flawes and some of his racial stereotype to aid in the progression of the wider story.This is not about Braham remember its about a scheming Warmonger who is seeking Charr dominance and as far as we can tell he needed to get the bow from Braham, to which end we dot know as yet.This is not some book that a writer takes many years to piece together this is fantasy writing by a range of writers over a much shorter time period, it is never going to a Tolkien or CS Lewis fantasy masterpiece where each connection has years of research and deliberations.Look we get it, you see yourself as an expert writer but your forgetting that quality of this story is very much subjective, if it is not up to your high standards then that is something only you can deal with.I would hazard a guess that many lesser folk like myself don't feel the need to nit pick to such a fine degree of detail, we just try to enjoy it for what it is.

The point is still miles from you.

What I'm asking for is very simple. Stop using Braham as a stock character. You don't need to be a high-bar writer to accomplish this. You just need common sense and a general sense of respect for this character. And if they had done it this way, even the easily-pleased audience that you describe yourself as would still be pleased.

"Except ANET haven't done any of that. They have simply allowed a character with obvious flawes to begin to mature and in doing so they are using both his flawes and some of his racial stereotype to aid in the progression of the wider story."

What story are you following? "simply allowed"? His character has been forced, forced upon, and prevented for almost his entire arc. He's used as a tool, not as a character.

The irony of what you posted here confirms that there is no credibility in your logic to continue conversing. That will be all.

ScyeRynn.4218 · September 27, 2019

@mercury ranique.2170 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@TheNecrosanct.4028 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@mercury ranique.2170 said:There are several things wrong with the OP's post. The first being that he claims to be talking bout everyone, while this is certainly not true. There are people who dislike Braham, but just as much as there are people disliking any other member of the living world story. (a good example would be Taime, whom is loved and hated at the same time.
There is a lot of disliking in the post, but not where he would be bad or wrong. It is all about personal taste and has nothing to do with actual feedback about the writing. So any good reason to let him go is missing. (and yes there can be made good points about any character as they misfit someones personality and reacts to ones irritation, but that doesnt validate as a reason, im talking about feedback about the writing.)

This is incorrect. The OP (also known as me) did not claim that "everybody" had the same opinion of Braham. Using words like "players" and "we" loosely and undefined is not claiming everyone. It could mean a majority of players, a large portion of players, or a small handful of players. And did you just assume my gender? :O There are far more than several things wrong with your post including incorrect claims, failed comprehension, assumptions, spelling and word usage, and an overall lack of anything relevant to the thread and its topic.

And in the meantime you ignored the rest of his post. You talked about cherrypicking in another reply. I guess you do know what that is, don't you?

Tbf, I also see nothing more than a person who dislikes a certain character and thinks that is a reason to kill them off. I see nothing but an opinion of a character, but not actual reasons why he's such a bad character. I don't see any valid criticism in writing style (even though you criticize others for theirs, the most pedantic thing to do on the Internet, especially if you also ignore large parts of their replies to you). He's irritating: opinion. He's useless: opinion. He's cringy: opinion. I could go on, but you catch my drift.

Braham isn't my favorite character either. At one point I wanted him gone too. But calling to kill him off seems a bit of an overreaction at this point.

This is incorrect.

I addressed the false statement of that post and analyzed the rest of their post for anything that wasn't an assumption, pointless, or a clear lack of comprehension and found that there wasn't anything left in that post that needed to be responded to.

Would you respond to every pointless, misguided sentence or word in someone's response? Exactly. Neither did I.

This player compared my argument of Braham to Taimi. If they had actually read and comprehended my thread, they would know how I differentiated the two characters in terms of usefulness, character consistency, and quality. But this responder either didn't care or didn't comprehend that. They just decided to let their words spill from their brain and then claim that my thread had errors.

They then proceed to claim there is nothing mentioned about the quality of the writing or reasoning to why Braham needs to be let go. Another result of this poster not reading or comprehending what I have posted and have been posting in every response since.

So if you think you are going to make a point about me ignoring or cherry-picking this person's post, you need to make sure you understand why I had and the validity of what was not responded to.

If you and this person can't be bothered to read or comprehend, then what are you doing here?

"I don't see any valid criticism in writing style (even though you criticize others for theirs, the most pedantic thing to do on the Internet"

Criticism for this person's post? Anet? My posts? Criticism for who? Please clean up that sentence so I can respond to it.

As far as criticizing others for their writing style? I rarely point out spelling and grammar issues. I certainly could, but that would be a full-time job on here. For this person's post in particular, it was hypocritical and inaccurate to claim a multitude of errors (especially unfounded) in my post when their post was infested with them. If I do point out an error, such as with your particular sentence here, it's usually because I need to clearly understand it to respond to it.

I wrote a lot more than just "He's irritating. He's useless. He's cringy." and you know I did. This is that cherry-picking action you are referring to and it's the comprehension issue I was referring to.

"I could go on, but you catch my drift."

Yes, please go on, so you can actually point out all of what I had actually said.

I like how you claim tat I do not read or comprehend, but you fail to read and comprehend that you are argumenting in a very weak way and ingoring my challenge to shape up and do better. You see it as a personal attack, while all I do is trying to challenge you to do better. There are words for this kind of behaviour. The nice one is prejudice. But you risk being seen in a certain cave in Queensdale.

No, if it was a personal attack it probably wouldn't exist on these forums. Unfortunately for your proposed intention, you can't look for quality in another post when you are unable to grasp what quality is in the first place. Your posts are completely unfocused, poorly written, and entirely inaccurate.

"prejudice"? Unconnected. Random. But adds to the off-topic content of your post. Insinuating that I am a troll could certainly be seen as a personal attack, but I see it more as inaccurate for me, hypocritical for you, and ultimately a waste of my time. This is my thread. You came here and you have only posted unrelated and pointless content. That is the actual behavior of an actual troll. Therefore, there is no reason to continue our conversation, unfortunately.

Donari.5237 · September 27, 2019

@ScyeRynn.4218 said:Having a character that is mostly meant to be a gimmick only works for small, side characters like Faren. He was designed that way for the most part.

You take that back about my man E! :)

Braham has never been my favorite and I've had my share of reasons to find his writing not that great, but I think he really had a purpose in this Prologue. And it had to be him, he's the one with the dragon-hurting bow, he's the one easiest to take advantage of and trick into overindulging. That last instance got me fired up to see what happens next and feeling amazed as the serious undertones of the prologue clicked into place. GW2 is never going to be at the level of writing I prefer in my F&SF books, and I accept that as the nature of the beast, but they certainly upped their game in this release.

ScyeRynn.4218 · September 27, 2019

@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@"Palador.2170" said:Let's be clear, I don't like Braham. For a long time, I've wanted him dropped from the story. And him getting drunk in the current story? Yeah, he pretty much ignored the reminder that he was representing our group there.
But... he did have someone TRYING to get him drunk, so maybe that's not entirely his fault. And for the upcoming story, if we're going to learn something about the Spirits of the Wild, it may be best to have an immature norn with us. This way the player (and the commander, if need be) can learn about the spirits while Braham is getting lectured by wiser norn. It might give him a chance to grow up some, too.

It's completely irrelevant who or what caused him to be drunk. The point is that it's being used as a way to further their agenda with Braham as a caricature and not a character. This placeholder journey with Braham has been going on with his character for a long time now and it's unfortunate to see a character that started with so much potential reduced to an empty gimmick.

No they are furthering the agenda of the story.. or are you missing the fact he was being prompted to drink more, fight and.. loosing the heirloom of his family , to which end we do not yet know other than the leader of this Charr dragonhunt now holds it with the instigator apparent by his side.I think your trying to read far too much into the Braham character at this stage of what is just the prologue.I see this as a way for Braham to open up the Norn part of this story and for him to begin maturing into a more solid, focused member of the group, at least I hope for that.I think we get it, you don't like the character or the personality that has been written into him thus far, but your missing the point somewhat in that Braham at a young age has had to deal with some pretty tough stuff that even those of greater years and maturity would also find hard to deal with.. this may be his chance to grow as a player in this story, this game.

What I was calling "irrelevant" was the need to clarify Braham being drunk or who got him drunk in regards to what my thread is about. I know why Braham was drunk and what it accomplished for their plot. The point is about his slurred speech being intended for comedic intentions. You can have the same plot play out without the overuse of comedy through a character that has already had enough comedy forced on him, for the purpose of one of the agendas of the writers.

Have you ever been drunk or tried to converse with someone that is.. it can be kind of funny at times, but it can also be quite a powerful truth serum I guess for many of us.I mean less we forget this was a celebration and some take that as a green light to let their hair down and have some fun, drink too much eat the pantry out of food and yeah do stupid things.. I know a few adults who have done that more times than I can throw a stick at. Add to that Norn are kind of stereotyped into that big brawling moot lovers, equally at home with an oversized weapon in their hand and talking tough or having a Steiner of ale fixed to their mouths slurring dumb talk to whoever about whatever.. but yes it was used to further the narrative of the wider story arc that is at play.So I still do not see why you have such a problem with it, what is the harm, it served a purpose and I think it was executed reasonably well and for me at least it finally made me feel Braham might just be redeemable as a character.Try to enjoy (or not) the story and its writings for what it actually is, not what you think it should be from your own self perceived expertise.

There is no need to further excuse that scene. There never was. The point, again, is that it's Braham. AGAIN. "Ka-Braham!" -- "I have hair!" -- "You know why they call me Eirsson? Because I'm Eir's son." Hilarious. Braham was a stoic, noble, reasonably intelligent character starting out. Now he's shooting Jormag's tooth, being a bratty child to the Commander, and trying to fit in those absolutely ingenious one-liners wherever he can.

Those who want and know something can be better (or at least not awful) don't just eat-up whatever is put in front of them. Creators and designers aren't asking for feedback and opinions because they don't care about what we would like. We point out and they ask because we both want the best for the game. The kind of players you suggest are the kind that don't have credibility in such topics as these, nor do they have any type of argument worth engaging, except for me to point out what I just have.

If you're happy with the game and have nothing to add other than, "It's fine. Just accept it.", then there is nothing left for us to discuss.

flog.3485 · September 27, 2019

@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@"Palador.2170" said:Let's be clear, I don't like Braham. For a long time, I've wanted him dropped from the story. And him getting drunk in the current story? Yeah, he pretty much ignored the reminder that he was representing our group there.
But... he did have someone TRYING to get him drunk, so maybe that's not entirely his fault. And for the upcoming story, if we're going to learn something about the Spirits of the Wild, it may be best to have an immature norn with us. This way the player (and the commander, if need be) can learn about the spirits while Braham is getting lectured by wiser norn. It might give him a chance to grow up some, too.

It's completely irrelevant who or what caused him to be drunk. The point is that it's being used as a way to further their agenda with Braham as a caricature and not a character. This placeholder journey with Braham has been going on with his character for a long time now and it's unfortunate to see a character that started with so much potential reduced to an empty gimmick.

No they are furthering the agenda of the story.. or are you missing the fact he was being prompted to drink more, fight and.. loosing the heirloom of his family , to which end we do not yet know other than the leader of this Charr dragonhunt now holds it with the instigator apparent by his side.I think your trying to read far too much into the Braham character at this stage of what is just the prologue.I see this as a way for Braham to open up the Norn part of this story and for him to begin maturing into a more solid, focused member of the group, at least I hope for that.I think we get it, you don't like the character or the personality that has been written into him thus far, but your missing the point somewhat in that Braham at a young age has had to deal with some pretty tough stuff that even those of greater years and maturity would also find hard to deal with.. this may be his chance to grow as a player in this story, this game.

What I was calling "irrelevant" was the need to clarify Braham being drunk or who got him drunk in regards to what my thread is about. I know why Braham was drunk and what it accomplished for their plot. The point is about his slurred speech being intended for comedic intentions. You can have the same plot play out without the overuse of comedy through a character that has already had enough comedy forced on him, for the purpose of one of the agendas of the writers.

Have you ever been drunk or tried to converse with someone that is.. it can be kind of funny at times, but it can also be quite a powerful truth serum I guess for many of us.I mean less we forget this was a celebration and some take that as a green light to let their hair down and have some fun, drink too much eat the pantry out of food and yeah do stupid things.. I know a few adults who have done that more times than I can throw a stick at. Add to that Norn are kind of stereotyped into that big brawling moot lovers, equally at home with an oversized weapon in their hand and talking tough or having a Steiner of ale fixed to their mouths slurring dumb talk to whoever about whatever.. but yes it was used to further the narrative of the wider story arc that is at play.So I still do not see why you have such a problem with it, what is the harm, it served a purpose and I think it was executed reasonably well and for me at least it finally made me feel Braham might just be redeemable as a character.Try to enjoy (or not) the story and its writings for what it actually is, not what you think it should be from your own self perceived expertise.

There is no need to further excuse that scene. There never was. The point, again, is that it's Braham. AGAIN. "Ka-Braham!" -- "I have hair!" -- "You know why they call me Eirsson? Because I'm Eir's son." Hilarious. Braham was a stoic, noble, reasonably intelligent character starting out. Now he's shooting Jormag's tooth, being a bratty child to the Commander, and trying to fit in those absolutely ingenious one-liners wherever he can.

Those who want and know something can be better (or at least not awful) don't just eat-up whatever is put in front of them. Creators and designers don't ask for feedback and opinions because they don't care about what we would like. We point out and they ask because we both want the best for the game. The kind of players you suggest are the kind that don't have credibility in such topics as these, nor do they have any type of argument worth engaging, except for me to point out what I just have.

If you're happy with the game and have nothing to add other than, "It's fine. Just accept it.", then there is nothing left for us to discuss.

Sorry to interject, but I really need to know about this. At what point in the story was he ever a stoic, noble, reasonably intelligent character ?

ScyeRynn.4218 · September 27, 2019

@flog.3485 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@Bloodstealer.5978 said:
@ScyeRynn.4218 said:
@"Palador.2170" said:Let's be clear, I don't like Braham. For a long time, I've wanted him dropped from the story. And him getting drunk in the current story? Yeah, he pretty much ignored the reminder that he was representing our group there.
But... he did have someone TRYING to get him drunk, so maybe that's not entirely his fault. And for the upcoming story, if we're going to learn something about the Spirits of the Wild, it may be best to have an immature norn with us. This way the player (and the commander, if need be) can learn about the spirits while Braham is getting lectured by wiser norn. It might give him a chance to grow up some, too.