Buff core necro stability access

[Anchoku.8142]

I would like one stack of 3 second, 5 person, stability AoE on exiting shroud as part of a Death Magic rework toward providing a true tanking build in end-game PvE.

This, combined with SR's stab-on-entry FitG, would give enough stackable stab to mitigate control effects and help keep group dps. A second reliable stab source would help maintain control over boss positioning among the visual clutter and avoid dps loss from chaining dodges/jumps.

DM has no group value and comes with a massive cut to dps. That needs to change and I think adding a stability trait to it will help justify its use.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I think another source of Stab should come from a utility skill, rather than a trait or transformation, just so that it can be used when needed to cover something. Even just making Well of Power pulse Stability would be plenty IMO. The main concern I see with that is turning Well of Power into the "You run this and 2 other utilities" skill, especially in competitive formats, but we already have Spectral Walk doing that to a degree.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Frankly, any argument any of you are going to make on the basis of 'every other class doesn't have deficiencies in PVP' is a non-starter, whether that's true or not. Even if that were true, it would STILL not be relevant as you don't know the intentions of the devs for the classes and what they offer players in terms of gameplay. No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does. Maybe you think you have an overwhelming case because of your claims of what every other class does ... those are just baseless claims. If other classes didn't have deficiencies in PVP the PVP scene would be VERY different.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Necro does have some very significant weaknesses and is without a doubt, the easiest class to focus down. But knowing how to read a fight will save you from a lot more deaths than a little extra Stability.

Absolutely. Truth is that even the deficiencies that are being described are not what hold people back from being successful with the class. The bottom line is that PVPing on Necro is harder and no argument can prove that's a problem that needs to be fixed by flooding it with any half-cocked player idea. If you struggle and your desire is just to win, you got choices.

But these deficiencies are holding back necro,

Right ... doesn't that go without saying? I mean, are you trying to say that deficiencies shouldn't hold you back because I think they should ... and I think that's why if a class has them, it 's completely plausible 'holding them back' is a reason why they do.

@Axl.8924 said:That wasn't meant for you actually I was referring to obtenna who is acting defensively against buffing necros, and I really don't understand why.

That's the problem ... you don't understand why because you don't understand how this game works. You've somehow convinced yourself that some level of performance a class has in a game mode is a problem when it's conceivable that at best, it's intended, or at worst, understood that level is just a consequence of a class-based MMO.

[Obtena.7952]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does.

This isn't true man, classes get buffs and nerfs relative to each other all the time. e.g in PvE chrono got nerfed due to being an almost provide everything support and crowding out everything else. Rev got buffed and given alacrity to so chrono wasn't the only thing that could provide it. Literally the reason Chrono players are super sad and why the FB+Rev combo is a thing.

Uh, no it's completely true. Never has Anet said they are buffing class X because class Y has something else. Rev did NOT get alacrity because Chrono's had it, they got it because Anet didn't only want one class to be able to buff Alacrity. Completely different reasoning.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Akrasia.5469 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Go play different classes then o/

This is the kind of snobbish remark that hurts a game's community. There are a lot of Necro mains.

Yes, that's what hurts the game's community and totally not overbuffing "my class" in some kind of self-made "us vs them" rivalry, ok. Start playing other classes and get some perspective.Somehow you don't care at all about people making empty claims like "

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good

", but when I say "

go play different classes

"? OH HELL NO, destroying the community!

We like the way necro feels to play and enjoy that style of gameplay the most.

And you're free to do so, which still isn't a reason to change "your class" because you want to be "more like the other class". What kind of argument is that?If you play necro for the sake of its playstyle, then don't try to be another class just because you... well, in the end don't enjoy necro's playstyle that much I guess? People want more stab randomly splattered throughout a class (and by "

randomly

" I mean "

added to the skills/traits that I'm already using over the other ones

") and try to claim it'll have anything to do with improving the balance or gameplay quality? No, it won't. It will let you roll your face on your keyboard more, sure, but pretty sure that's not the point.

And while we're at it -what exactly do you enjoy about necro?

Lastly, the complaints you're talking about here are not new. We have been complaining about mobility for years. Surviving hard CC for years. The Devs pretty much give those ideas the middle finger and boost necro damage each time.. resulting in an "OP" (not really) build for a short time then a hard nerf. It's been the same pattern since the start. If it's about playing a different class then GW2 might as well just drop necro, and the players who love the class, so it's not an issue.

The same thing happens "since always" in other classes' subforums. People that spam a single class want their class to be even stronger. I'm not sure how it's relevant to anything.

Each class has something in common: tools to evade 1shots.

weavers got evade, mes with mirage plenty of evades invulns eles got invulns too but are on a cd, and tempest is hard-pressed anyways to deal because they are forced to try and go in melee range which is super dangerous at least with tempest, and overload is very risky on such a light armored class.

Imagine a Low health pool class and Light armoured class going melee range with warrior with two normal evades may aswell delete Weaver if that was the case, Necro isn't really that bad as what people say it is honestly, it's certaintly pretty amazing in WvW and it can still give amazing barrier support with full zerker armour, not many classes can give support buffs in full zerker like Scourge lol, PvP is w/e if they nerf the damage on all classes like they say they will then that's pretty good for Necros already and in PvE, Support scourge just falls with the same issue as many other classes that are not Firebrand or Renegade in which they don't offer offensive buffs, Reaper is pretty good but not really as good as DH or Mirage

[Axl.8924]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Frankly, any argument any of you are going to make on the basis of 'every other class doesn't have deficiencies in PVP' is a non-starter, whether that's true or not. Even if that were true, it would STILL not be relevant as you don't know the intentions of the devs for the classes and what they offer players in terms of gameplay. No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does. Maybe you think you have an overwhelming case because of your claims of what every other class does ... those are just baseless claims. If other classes didn't have deficiencies in PVP the PVP scene would be VERY different.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Necro does have some very significant weaknesses and is without a doubt, the easiest class to focus down. But knowing how to read a fight will save you from a lot more deaths than a little extra Stability.

Absolutely. Truth is that even the deficiencies that are being described are not what hold people back from being successful with the class. The bottom line is that PVPing on Necro is harder and no argument can prove that's a problem that needs to be fixed by flooding it with any half-cocked player idea. If you struggle and your desire is just to win, you got choices.

But these deficiencies are holding back necro,

Right ... doesn't that go without saying? I mean, are you trying to say that deficiencies shouldn't hold you back because I think they should ... and I think that's why if a class has them, it 's completely plausible 'holding them back' is a reason why they do.

@Axl.8924 said:That wasn't meant for you actually I was referring to obtenna who is acting defensively against buffing necros, and I really don't understand why.

That's the problem ... you don't understand why because you don't understand how this game works. You've somehow convinced yourself that some level of performance a class has in a game mode is a problem when it's conceivable that at best, it's intended, or at worst, understood that level is just a consequence of a class-based MMO.

But I do understand I've played this game for years. You can't make that claim without it being accurate about you, and multiple people have argued against your points to defend for some nonsense reason that necros shouldn't have any defenses that make no sense.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does.

This isn't true man, classes get buffs and nerfs relative to each other all the time. e.g in PvE chrono got nerfed due to being an almost provide everything support and crowding out everything else. Rev got buffed and given alacrity to so chrono wasn't the only thing that could provide it. Literally the reason Chrono players are super sad and why the FB+Rev combo is a thing.

Uh, no it's completely true. Never has Anet said they are buffing class X because class Y has something else. Rev did NOT get alacrity because Chrono's had it, they got it because Anet didn't only want one class to be able to buff Alacrity. Completely different reasoning.

There have been at times I know for sure just can't remember where a class got nerfed and you got compensated I just don't remember where. Do you have any idea how huge a nerf the Chrono nerf was? it was a huge effect on SPVP, jus let it settle in the enormity of the effect, and sometimes later on things get buffed slightly not hugely but slightly to be less of a nerf because it ends up affecting too much. For instance, for scourge, they had to lower the cd in PVE to allow you to cast multiple scourge shades because the nerf gutted them in PVE and was way too big a nerf, and this was due to mechanical nerfs.

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Akrasia.5469 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Go play different classes then o/

This is the kind of snobbish remark that hurts a game's community. There are a lot of Necro mains.

Yes, that's what hurts the game's community and totally not overbuffing "my class" in some kind of self-made "us vs them" rivalry, ok. Start playing other classes and get some perspective.Somehow you don't care at all about people making empty claims like "

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good

", but when I say "

go play different classes

"? OH HELL NO, destroying the community!

We like the way necro feels to play and enjoy that style of gameplay the most.

And you're free to do so, which still isn't a reason to change "your class" because you want to be "more like the other class". What kind of argument is that?If you play necro for the sake of its playstyle, then don't try to be another class just because you... well, in the end don't enjoy necro's playstyle that much I guess? People want more stab randomly splattered throughout a class (and by "

randomly

" I mean "

added to the skills/traits that I'm already using over the other ones

") and try to claim it'll have anything to do with improving the balance or gameplay quality? No, it won't. It will let you roll your face on your keyboard more, sure, but pretty sure that's not the point.

And while we're at it -what exactly do you enjoy about necro?

Lastly, the complaints you're talking about here are not new. We have been complaining about mobility for years. Surviving hard CC for years. The Devs pretty much give those ideas the middle finger and boost necro damage each time.. resulting in an "OP" (not really) build for a short time then a hard nerf. It's been the same pattern since the start. If it's about playing a different class then GW2 might as well just drop necro, and the players who love the class, so it's not an issue.

The same thing happens "since always" in other classes' subforums. People that spam a single class want their class to be even stronger. I'm not sure how it's relevant to anything.

Each class has something in common: tools to evade 1shots.

weavers got evade, mes with mirage plenty of evades invulns eles got invulns too but are on a cd, and tempest is hard-pressed anyways to deal because they are forced to try and go in melee range which is super dangerous at least with tempest, and overload is very risky on such a light armored class.

Imagine a Low health pool class and Light armoured class going melee range with warrior with two normal evades may aswell delete Weaver if that was the case, Necro isn't really that bad as what people say it is honestly, it's certaintly pretty amazing in WvW and it can still give amazing barrier support with full zerker armour, not many classes can give support buffs in full zerker like Scourge lol, PvP is w/e if they nerf the damage on all classes like they say they will then that's pretty good for Necros already and in PvE, Support scourge just falls with the same issue as many other classes that are not Firebrand or Renegade in which they don't offer offensive buffs, Reaper is pretty good but not really as good as DH or Mirage

I'm not asking eles to lose evades, i know all too well i played tempest and i am not sure as i'm not great at ele in SPVP, but i did get destroyed when i did.

I was merely pointing out each class has different defenses and that the ridiculous kitten excuse well ANET did it so it must be fine now NO!! its not fine.

Sometimes they make mistakes they are humans, and sometimes you have to say listen anet, there is a mistake here, please change this(nicely and respectfully of course, because you always should be respectful) and then they will look in on it.

Reaper is decent in PVE, I won't say it isn't, because it is, but the issue is SPVP here where we are talking about, and scourge isn't doing as good in WVW now, its at least seen somewhat more there.

Also the concern is with defenses with core and reaper being that mobile classes with cc spam can just cc spam you and blow you up, and damage is at a high where the most effective class, are classes with evades blocks and invulns, which also contributes to power creep creating unbalance.

If you read the forums you will see me debate zdragon anchoku and many others about what is needed.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

Imagine a Low health pool class and Light armoured class going melee range with warrior with two normal evades may aswell delete Weaver if that was the case, Necro isn't really that bad as what people say it is honestly, it's certaintly pretty amazing in WvW and it can still give amazing barrier support with full zerker armour, not many classes can give support buffs in full zerker like Scourge lol, PvP is w/e if they nerf the damage on all classes like they say they will then that's pretty good for Necros already and in PvE, Support scourge just falls with the same issue as many other classes that are not Firebrand or Renegade in which they don't offer offensive buffs, Reaper is pretty good but not really as good as DH or Mirage

Low health class can easily fix it's low health issue with vitality gear. Even in PvP which is most restrictive with defensive stat combinations, amulets with high Vitality are not uncommon. Core necro can't fix his stab issue with gear.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:But I do understand I've played this game for years. You can't make that claim without it being accurate about you, and multiple people have argued against your points to defend for some nonsense reason that necros shouldn't have any defenses that make no sense.

Right ... and if people are arguing against some point that necros shouldn't have any defenses, it's no wonder their points make no sense because I've never said they shouldn't have defenses. I think if your best reply to me is along the lines of sensationalism and telling me things I've never said, that indicates more about desperation than it does any kind of logical thinking that has been done. Hey, if you think appealing to Anet with 'Necros have no defense' is going to work for you, you haven't been paying attention for the last 8 years.

[Axl.8924]

Well at leas> @ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

Imagine a Low health pool class and Light armoured class going melee range with warrior with two normal evades may aswell delete Weaver if that was the case, Necro isn't really that bad as what people say it is honestly, it's certaintly pretty amazing in WvW and it can still give amazing barrier support with full zerker armour, not many classes can give support buffs in full zerker like Scourge lol, PvP is w/e if they nerf the damage on all classes like they say they will then that's pretty good for Necros already and in PvE, Support scourge just falls with the same issue as many other classes that are not Firebrand or Renegade in which they don't offer offensive buffs, Reaper is pretty good but not really as good as DH or Mirage

Low health class can easily fix it's low health issue with vitality gear. Even in PvP which is most restrictive with defensive stat combinations, amulets with high Vitality are not uncommon. Core necro can't fix his stab issue with gear.

You could say at least eles got evade with weaver plus 2 invulns. The teleport is fairly long i think actually longer cd than wurm. Flash lightning teleport is like 60 seconds something ridiculous like that? but they got 2 invulns on 40 sec and the 1 short cd port they got on ele is only on trident, and that is pocket bubble or something on like 10 sec cd but obviously water only.

So yeah necros got better port than eles never thought i'd say that.

[Anchoku.8142]

I honestly think FitG is enough stab for most game modes except a very specific PvE tanking role, which does not work for Necro because of frequent control effects and the change to shroud allowing damage to carry over instead of being a one-hit block. This is a DM-only shortcoming as that trait line automatically stacks toughness (aggro) with no team value and poor mob control to show for it.

There may be a balance patch tomorrow and, if Necro does not get nerfed in another way to make it more clunky, it may benefit. Somehow, I do not think Arenanet will trim boons, conditions, cleansing, stripping, and whatever but making boons and conditions more important by rarity is where I would like to see the game.

[KrHome.1920]

Unfortunately the big balance patch won't drop this season. So tuesday february 25th (season ends feb 24th) will be the earliest date we can expect it.

If the overal damage of the game gets nerfed and anet does not touch life force generation on necro then this patch will be a buff to the sustain of the class no matter what else it does.

The lesser the damage than the less superior an unlimited damage mitigation becomes and the more the ability of necro to sustain and attack at once will come into effect.

[Anchoku.8142]

@KrHome.1920 said:Unfortunately the big balance patch won't drop this season. So tuesday february 25th (season ends feb 24th) will be the earliest date we can expect it.

If the overal damage of the game gets nerfed and anet does not touch life force generation on necro then this patch will be a buff to the sustain of the class no matter what else it does.

The lesser the damage than the less superior an unlimited damage mitigation becomes and the more the ability of necro to sustain and attack at once will come into effect.

Ah, thank you and good point. I wonder if they will trim back condition mitigation if they also cut condition output.

Boons and conditions are so deeply threaded into the game I imagine doing anything global with them will be a difficult task.

[Sobx.1758]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Akrasia.5469 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Go play different classes then o/

This is the kind of snobbish remark that hurts a game's community. There are a lot of Necro mains.

Yes, that's what hurts the game's community and totally not overbuffing "my class" in some kind of self-made "us vs them" rivalry, ok. Start playing other classes and get some perspective.Somehow you don't care at all about people making empty claims like "

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good

", but when I say "

go play different classes

"? OH HELL NO, destroying the community!

We like the way necro feels to play and enjoy that style of gameplay the most.

And you're free to do so, which still isn't a reason to change "your class" because you want to be "more like the other class". What kind of argument is that?If you play necro for the sake of its playstyle, then don't try to be another class just because you... well, in the end don't enjoy necro's playstyle that much I guess? People want more stab randomly splattered throughout a class (and by "

randomly

" I mean "

added to the skills/traits that I'm already using over the other ones

") and try to claim it'll have anything to do with improving the balance or gameplay quality? No, it won't. It will let you roll your face on your keyboard more, sure, but pretty sure that's not the point.

And while we're at it -what exactly do you enjoy about necro?

Lastly, the complaints you're talking about here are not new. We have been complaining about mobility for years. Surviving hard CC for years. The Devs pretty much give those ideas the middle finger and boost necro damage each time.. resulting in an "OP" (not really) build for a short time then a hard nerf. It's been the same pattern since the start. If it's about playing a different class then GW2 might as well just drop necro, and the players who love the class, so it's not an issue.

The same thing happens "since always" in other classes' subforums. People that spam a single class want their class to be even stronger. I'm not sure how it's relevant to anything.

Each class has something in common: tools to evade 1shots.

Didn't know necro lost ability to dodge, my bad :/

A damage soaker class like reaper should be able to roam around for a while

Yes, you definitely should be able to do the same thing thieves do except of doing it in aoes, with more than double amount of health, boon stripping and crap. If you want to blow up single targets, play classes/builds that specialize in that. But it seems you want to have everything in your one bucket.And for the thousandth time, splattering bonus stability throughout already preferred builds isn't a solution to anything.Why do you like playing necro?Why don't you like playing thief or any other class you're calling out above?

[Axl.8924]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Akrasia.5469 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

Go play different classes then o/

This is the kind of snobbish remark that hurts a game's community. There are a lot of Necro mains.

Yes, that's what hurts the game's community and totally not overbuffing "my class" in some kind of self-made "us vs them" rivalry, ok. Start playing other classes and get some perspective.Somehow you don't care at all about people making empty claims like "

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good

", but when I say "

go play different classes

"? OH HELL NO, destroying the community!

We like the way necro feels to play and enjoy that style of gameplay the most.

And you're free to do so, which still isn't a reason to change "your class" because you want to be "more like the other class". What kind of argument is that?If you play necro for the sake of its playstyle, then don't try to be another class just because you... well, in the end don't enjoy necro's playstyle that much I guess? People want more stab randomly splattered throughout a class (and by "

randomly

" I mean "

added to the skills/traits that I'm already using over the other ones

") and try to claim it'll have anything to do with improving the balance or gameplay quality? No, it won't. It will let you roll your face on your keyboard more, sure, but pretty sure that's not the point.

And while we're at it -what exactly do you enjoy about necro?

Lastly, the complaints you're talking about here are not new. We have been complaining about mobility for years. Surviving hard CC for years. The Devs pretty much give those ideas the middle finger and boost necro damage each time.. resulting in an "OP" (not really) build for a short time then a hard nerf. It's been the same pattern since the start. If it's about playing a different class then GW2 might as well just drop necro, and the players who love the class, so it's not an issue.

The same thing happens "since always" in other classes' subforums. People that spam a single class want their class to be even stronger. I'm not sure how it's relevant to anything.

Each class has something in common: tools to evade 1shots.

Didn't know necro lost ability to dodge, my bad :/

A damage soaker class like reaper should be able to roam around for a while

Yes, you definitely should be able to do the same thing thieves do except of doing it in aoes, with more than double amount of health, boon stripping and kitten. If you want to blow up single targets, play classes/builds that specialize in that. But it seems you want to have everything in your one bucket.And for the thousandth time, splattering bonus stability throughout already preferred builds isn't a solution to anything.Why do you like playing necro?Why don't you like playing thief or any other class you're calling out above?

That's quite ridiculous as no one is asking to be like thieves and have infinite mobility, but ask for ways to have our "conditional defenses" improved by making our gap closers better. Asking for things like our carapace to be able to be built up faster slight improvements to our weapons. Improvements to dagger to make them less clunky maybe improvements to warhorn. Maybe give slightly duration of prot on our well of power and perhaps improvement slightly to our consume condition cd to lower cd to help us survive. See? i'm not asking for aegis or infinite duration invuln, besides things like invuln spam aegis spam and stuff like that needs nerfed.

Why should double standards exist its bad for game. Other classes get to have similar or better sustain plus as much or higher dmg.

Anyways i'm done with arguing with you anyways.

[Sobx.1758]

@Axl.8924 you didn't even answer.

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:[randomized insult here]All i want is better access to stab for core necromancer. Well of Power's 1s duration single stack is too pitiful to even talk about and Foot in the Grave while good, arm twists necro into taking Soul Reaping or being severely disadvantaged in competitive modes.

This is a major issue for core necro, as necro is all about freedom of choice when it comes to traitlines, where one goal can be achieved with myriad of different builds and no harm is done. That's core part of necro identity.

Core necro is about choice, but I refuse to pick available stab source/s, because I make a choice to pick something else and then cry on the forum to sprinkle some stab on my desired build anyways. All about choice indeed.You have stab access and your whole argument is based on the fact that you think you should just "have stab here and there anyways", which is based on nothing and certainly not on a "class identity". The claim that "necro is all about freedom of choice when it comes to traitlines, where one goal can be achieved with myriad of different builds " also seems to be nothing more than your opinion/wishful thinking. Or maybe I'm wrong and you can explain to me why it's indeed a fact?You also dismiss any stab access based solely on the fact that either it's "short" or doesn't have "x stacks". Since when do you make rules about what counts as stab access? Last time I've checked stab = stab. And finally you claim you only want a buff to core necro stab while all you propose also applies to especs (might easly be wrong here, but I won't go through your posts now, so feel free to correct me).

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:Why should double standards exist its bad for game. Other classes get to have similar or better sustain plus as much or higher dmg.

Those aren't double standards because no standard exists to begin with. It's simply based on individual class design. There is NO sensible argument that can be presented based on expectations and standard you invent for what a class should be. Choice is ALWAYS going to be the answer to this 'problem' because that's why choice exists in the first place.

Now, this is going to blow your mind (mostly because most people can't think in abstract terms) but perhaps if you had a justification for a class change based on theme ... I'm willing to be it's a better received one. Just call it a hunch.

Also loving today's patch notes ... want better stability access? OK ... Anet is listening to you:

Lich Form: Exiting Lich Form no longer removes stability.

HINT: See how that is a theme-based change? Please say you see how that's a theme-based change.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Facts:

1. Necro elites are straight up upgrades, not just alternatives to core necro.
2. Both have better stab access and no one is complaining,
3. They are considered balanced/slighly undertuned compared to rest of professions.

So instead of trying to get my point across which we all know wil fail i will ask you Sobx:"What is your reason for so adamantely resisting the idea of core necro (and only core) getting better access to stab?"

[KrHome.1920]

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:Facts:

1. Necro elites are straight up upgrades, not just alternatives to core necro.
2. Both have better stab access and no one is complaining,
3. They are considered balanced/slighly undertuned compared to rest of professions.

So instead of trying to get my point across which we all know wil fail i will ask you Sobx:"What is your reason for so adamantely resisting the idea of core necro (and only core) getting better access to stab?"I can answer that: because core has a ton more sustain than both elite specs. Trailblazer core is a serious threat in wvw and carrion still very viable in pvp (some say one of the best core professions for pvp).

A decent trailblazer core necro player will shred most reapers and scourges in wvw. I already mentioned it: when core gets more stability access it becomes better than reaper in the competitive modes. Right now both specs are in line. Scourge is the one falling behind because the sustain is too low for its clunky mechanic outside of clunky encounters aka zergs.

[Obtena.7952]

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:Facts:

1. Necro elites are straight up upgrades, not just alternatives to core necro.
2. Both have better stab access and no one is complaining,
3. They are considered balanced/slighly undertuned compared to rest of professions.

So instead of trying to get my point across which we all know wil fail i will ask you Sobx:"What is your reason for so adamantely resisting the idea of core necro (and only core) getting better access to stab?"

Because it's completely reasonable to expect players to make meaningful choices to get things they want at the expense of other things. In short ... there isn't a problem here to fix. I would go so far as to say that making good choices to overcome deficiencies (whether those are tactical OR strategic choices) is a sign of understanding how to play and being a good player ... but most people won't accept that they have things to learn ... or aren't as good as they think they are.

This thread is just a good example of trying to get exactly what you want with zero regard for WHY it exists the way it does to begin with. Maybe if you spent more time trying to understand the current situation by observing how the game works, you would need to spend less time asking for things that aren't realistic within the framework of the game to begin with.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

Facts:

1. Necro elites are straight up upgrades, not just alternatives to core necro.
2. Both have better stab access and no one is complaining,
3. They are considered balanced/slighly undertuned compared to rest of professions.

So instead of trying to get my point across which we all know wil fail i will ask you Sobx:"What is your reason for so adamantely resisting the idea of core necro (and only core) getting better access to stab?"

Because it's completely reasonable to expect players to make meaningful choices to get things they want at the expense of other things. In short ... there isn't a problem here to fix. I would go so far as to say that making good choices to overcome deficiencies (whether those are tactical OR strategic choices) is a sign of understanding how to play and being a good player ... but most people won't accept that they have things to learn ... or aren't as good as they think they are.

This thread is just a good example of trying to get exactly what you want with zero regard for WHY it exists the way it does to begin with. Maybe if you spent more time trying to understand the current situation by observing how the game works, you would need to spend less time asking for things that aren't realistic within the framework of the game to begin with.

Okay, Obetna. Why is it that Core Necromancer has the absolute least avoidance mechanics out of every profession and has no usable Stability to stop an incoming CC or cover an important cast? Since you apparently know everything about how and why this game is designed, please tell us.

Reaper and Scourge both have usable Stability options, which is why people aren't complaining so much in respect to them. Core does not. Foot in the Grave, due to being tied to Shroud entry, does not function for covering casts and entering Shroud interrupts whatever skill you were using making it minimal in effectiveness for stopping an incoming CC.

[KrHome.1920]

important castsCore does not have long casts besides shroud4 and wurm. One of them you can cover with fitg.

The wurm cast should absolutely be interruptable. This may be the reason why we haven't seen fitg triggering on entering and exiting shroud yet. A stab covered 1200 range port cast right after exiting shroud is overpowered for such a durable class. Reapers can do that (fitg on entering for stab, infusing terror on exiting for wurm covering stab) because they have to play a glass build with very limited utility (e.g. spite + curses not possible at the same time) to be able to do this and to be a threat at 1200 range which opens counter strategies (=balanced).

Competent core necro players are already a pain in the butt to fight when they use walk, wall and wurm as utilities. I can only see such a change, when core shroud degeneration is nerfed to 5% (like reaper shroud) as well.

/edit: added some explanatory notes

[Sobx.1758]

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:Facts:

Once again you didn't answer to anything. Am I being interrogated here or something, so any time I ask a question or put in doubt anything you said (while straight up asking to correct me if I'm wrong) you'll just drop what you said and try "attacking from another flank"? Is this what you're planning to do? Throwing some seemingly empty claims and when asked to elaborate, you'll pretend you said nothing?Moreover, I -at least partially- answered to your question in my previous post. I also agree with the few other answers under your question, so at least it seems it's not "just me".

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@KrHome.1920 said:

important castsCore does not have long casts besides shroud4 and wurm. One of them you can cover with fitg.

Any minion summon (including healing skill Blood Fiend) - 1.5s.Any core healing skill that is not a Blood Fiend recast - 1s (Well of Blood) and above (everything else).Dagger life siphon - 1.75sAxe's Ghastly Claws - 1.75s.

There's more then two long casts in necro kit.

The wurm cast should absolutely be interruptable. This may be the reason why we haven't seen fitg triggering on entering and exiting shroud yet. A stab covered 1200 range port cast right after exiting shroud is overpowered for such a durable class. Reapers can do that (fitg on entering for stab, infusing terror on exiting for wurm covering stab) because they have to play a glass build with very limited utility (e.g. spite + curses not possible at the same time) to be able to do this and to be a threat at 1200 range which opens counter strategies (=balanced).

You clearly are lacking in either knowledge of profession or game knowledge in general. Wurm summon is 1.5s. Wurm recast is a stunbreak. Stability is not needed as the stunbreak will free you from cc anyway and port you to wurm. That being said it's 32s cd, needs placing it first and takes up a precious utility slow for nothing more then self-survival tool.

Competent core necro players are already a pain in the butt to fight when they use walk, wall and wurm as utilities. I can only see such a change, when core shroud degeneration is nerfed to 5% (like reaper shroud) as well.

Yes. Because they have no other choice in order to survive Because of stab deficiency, core necros are often forced to build escape utilities, killing build diversity.You're annoyed with necro getting away? I as core necro am annoyed with having to get away. I would much rather stay and fight, but since i'm denied reasonable amounts of stab or other escape mechanics i know that would not be a fight, just once sided cc+ damage beatdown.

[Obtena.7952]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

Facts:

1. Necro elites are straight up upgrades, not just alternatives to core necro.
2. Both have better stab access and no one is complaining,
3. They are considered balanced/slighly undertuned compared to rest of professions.

So instead of trying to get my point across which we all know wil fail i will ask you Sobx:"What is your reason for so adamantely resisting the idea of core necro (and only core) getting better access to stab?"

Because it's completely reasonable to expect players to make meaningful choices to get things they want at the expense of other things. In short ... there isn't a problem here to fix. I would go so far as to say that making good choices to overcome deficiencies (whether those are tactical OR strategic choices) is a sign of understanding how to play and being a good player ... but most people won't accept that they have things to learn ... or aren't as good as they think they are.

This thread is just a good example of trying to get exactly what you want with zero regard for WHY it exists the way it does to begin with. Maybe if you spent more time trying to understand the current situation by observing how the game works, you would need to spend less time asking for things that aren't realistic within the framework of the game to begin with.

Okay, Obetna. Why is it that Core Necromancer has the absolute least avoidance mechanics out of every profession

and

has no usable Stability to stop an incoming CC or cover an important cast? Since you apparently know everything about how and why this game is designed, please tell us.

Easy ... because that's the way the devs designed it. I know you are looking for some deep analysis here, but it's not as complicated as you want it to be. You MUST bring yourself to be satisfied that whatever approach the devs used to design necro with it's strengths and weaknesses, you won't ever know it to argue the design is wrong. The compensation they provide us to that: they give us choice. Use it.

[Axl.8924]

@KrHome.1920 said:

important castsCore does not have long casts besides shroud4 and wurm. One of them you can cover with fitg.

The wurm cast should absolutely be interruptable. This may be the reason why we haven't seen fitg triggering on entering and exiting shroud yet. A stab covered 1200 range port cast right after exiting shroud is overpowered for such a durable class. Reapers can do that (fitg on entering for stab, infusing terror on exiting for wurm covering stab) because they have to play a glass build with very limited utility (e.g. spite + curses not possible at the same time) to be able to do this and to be a threat at 1200 range which opens counter strategies (=balanced).

Competent core necro players are already a pain in the butt to fight when they use walk, wall and wurm as utilities. I can only see such a change, when core shroud degeneration is nerfed to 5% (like reaper shroud) as well.

/edit: added some explanatory notes

Necromancers have issues with being cced and are very vulnerable and when focused are really fragile even with sustain built. To say there is nothing wrong Is akin to getting a snowball and saying global warming is a myth and then laughing and getting your umbrella out, as it's counterproductive and overall harmful to necros long term well being. Mobility plus evades plus burst from others makes the game very much so less fun for necros because it's hard for the sake of being hard due to over nerfing necros aggressively. While I understand the reasoning(Because they are afraid, and rightly so as just as druid was nerfed hard because they were overperforming and very dominant as the go-to healer) there must be a in-between, a way to make it so it's fun without not being so easy to kill, it literally takes agency away.

In what world, for instance, does the amount of evades and invulns in this game and aegis equate to toughness?

I am attempting to appeal to your logic as much as possible. Surely you see that for instance if the engine is problematic you don't just leave it, because if it's faulty and you do nothing, it might further break.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Yes.

Because they have no other choice in order to survive

Because of stab deficiency, core necros are often forced to build escape utilities, killing build diversity.You're annoyed with necro getting away? I as core necro am annoyed with having to getaway. I would much rather stay and fight, but since i'm denied reasonable amounts of stab or other escape mechanics i know that would not be a fight, just once sided cc+ damage beatdown.

This is not correct ... you have a choice. Anet has provided you with LOTS of choices and you have made one that has this particular deficiency in PVP. Sounds to me like if you feel that you have hit a significant barrier with that choice, you need to adjust and make some different ones.

Do necromancers already bring those choices blood magic? we use that and some death magic, but death magic is not effective in small groups, and it doesn't help much. Blood magic helps little. Most of our tools like what one of the warrs described in SPVP is related to sometimes the best defense is offense, which is the approach necros are mostly forced to take. I heard warriors suffer too when fighting mobile classes.

Necros are often forced to use our AOES in order to chill and get away and wurm.