Buff core necro stability access

[Obtena.7952]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Yes. Because they have no other choice in order to survive Because of stab deficiency, core necros are often forced to build escape utilities, killing build diversity.You're annoyed with necro getting away? I as core necro am annoyed with having to get away. I would much rather stay and fight, but since i'm denied reasonable amounts of stab or other escape mechanics i know that would not be a fight, just once sided cc+ damage beatdown.

This is not correct ... you have a choice. Anet has provided you with LOTS of choices and you have made one that has this particular deficiency in PVP. Sounds to me like if you feel that you have hit a significant barrier with that choice, you need to adjust and make some different ones.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Yes.

Because they have no other choice in order to survive

Because of stab deficiency, core necros are often forced to build escape utilities, killing build diversity.You're annoyed with necro getting away? I as core necro am annoyed with having to getaway. I would much rather stay and fight, but since i'm denied reasonable amounts of stab or other escape mechanics i know that would not be a fight, just once sided cc+ damage beatdown.

This is not correct ... you have a choice. Anet has provided you with LOTS of choices and you have made one that has this particular deficiency in PVP. Sounds to me like if you feel that you have hit a significant barrier with that choice, you need to adjust and make some different ones.

Do necromancers already bring those choices blood magic? we use that and some death magic, but death magic is not effective in small groups, and it doesn't help much. Blood magic helps little. Most of our tools like what one of the warrs described in SPVP is related to sometimes the best defense is offense, which is the approach necros are mostly forced to take. I heard warriors suffer too when fighting mobile classes.

Necros are often forced to use our AOES in order to chill and get away and wurm.

Again ... these deficiencies are not problems that need to be solved. If that set of choices is not a good performing option in PVP ... the answer is ... don't use those set of choices if you want good performance. That's why Anet gives us choice.

You can't assume that you know the 'necro class design formula' better than the people that make it to justify, from some technical assessment, why necro needs more access to stability.

[Axl.8924]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Yes.

Because they have no other choice in order to survive

Because of stab deficiency, core necros are often forced to build escape utilities, killing build diversity.You're annoyed with necro getting away? I as core necro am annoyed with having to getaway. I would much rather stay and fight, but since i'm denied reasonable amounts of stab or other escape mechanics i know that would not be a fight, just once sided cc+ damage beatdown.

This is not correct ... you have a choice. Anet has provided you with LOTS of choices and you have made one that has this particular deficiency in PVP. Sounds to me like if you feel that you have hit a significant barrier with that choice, you need to adjust and make some different ones.

Do necromancers already bring those choices blood magic? we use that and some death magic, but death magic is not effective in small groups, and it doesn't help much. Blood magic helps little. Most of our tools like what one of the warrs described in SPVP is related to sometimes the best defense is offense, which is the approach necros are mostly forced to take. I heard warriors suffer too when fighting mobile classes.

Necros are often forced to use our AOES in order to chill and get away and wurm.

Again ... these deficiencies are not problems that need to be solved. Those things are part of what defines the class. You can't assume that you know the 'necro class design formula' better than the people that make it to justify, from some technical assessment, why necro needs more access to stability.

I respectfully disagree. Things that are classified as having more weaknesses than other classes in facets isn't class flavor for class flavor, its just plain weakness, and it does diminish the value of a class in PVP, and they should be solved.

If you have like I said to KH holmes: If you are sure your fridge is malfunctioning and there is a possibility it could cause further problems in the future, then the possibility of fixing it as soon as possible is better than later. You act under the illusion nothing is wrong, well that is false because people are complaining about necro problems. How about please listening to the concerns and not pretending they don't exist? Sure every class has problems, but just because that is true, doesn't mean we should ignore all classes from having any problems fixed, and necro core has quite a lot of issues.

Issues with our heal being weaker than others, problems of others having mobility creating issues for us with teleports and infinite evades when combined with damage.

All these things are real, not illusionary.

I heard quite a lot have quit SPVP and WVW because it's a joke and people are always complaining about the quality. While some arguably complain about the wrong stuff, its wrong to simply dismiss all complaints.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Yes.

Because they have no other choice in order to survive

Because of stab deficiency, core necros are often forced to build escape utilities, killing build diversity.You're annoyed with necro getting away? I as core necro am annoyed with having to getaway. I would much rather stay and fight, but since i'm denied reasonable amounts of stab or other escape mechanics i know that would not be a fight, just once sided cc+ damage beatdown.

This is not correct ... you have a choice. Anet has provided you with LOTS of choices and you have made one that has this particular deficiency in PVP. Sounds to me like if you feel that you have hit a significant barrier with that choice, you need to adjust and make some different ones.

Do necromancers already bring those choices blood magic? we use that and some death magic, but death magic is not effective in small groups, and it doesn't help much. Blood magic helps little. Most of our tools like what one of the warrs described in SPVP is related to sometimes the best defense is offense, which is the approach necros are mostly forced to take. I heard warriors suffer too when fighting mobile classes.

Necros are often forced to use our AOES in order to chill and get away and wurm.

Again ... these deficiencies are not problems that need to be solved. Those things are part of what defines the class. You can't assume that you know the 'necro class design formula' better than the people that make it to justify, from some technical assessment, why necro needs more access to stability.

I respectfully disagree. Things that are classified as having more weaknesses than other classes in facets isn't class flavor for class flavor, its just plain weakness, and it does diminish the value of a class in PVP, and they should be solved.

They have been solved ... by giving players choices. That's the strategy Anet has chosen to allow players to make meaningful decisions. Disagree with that all you want ... but that approach isn't going away and it's not likely to be diminished by giving everyone everything they want because they don't want to make meaningful decisions or have deficiencies. It's not a point of opinion at this stage ... it's fact. That's how this game works. That's how it will continue to work.

[Curennos.9307]

I don't really mind being CC'd, generally speaking.

I don't mind that when I play necro, I'm going to be slower/less mobile than my opponent unless I'm fighting another necro.

I don't mind that my primary defense - and means of maintaining offense through being able to just absorb damage while still attacking - consists of an interestingly designed second heath pool, and that this means I'm going to just...get hammered on a lot.

What I do mind is being unable to utilize my supposed advantages. CC duration is getting be rather long - both in the actual amount of time I'm getting CC'd from a single skill, and the length of the chain of CC headed my way.

The current state of things turns necros into punching bags. Not in an exaggerated sense, either - almost literally a punching bag, because you're CC'd so often and so long that you become a giant mountain of health for opponents to chew through that, if they play their cards right, more often than not can't actually apply counter pressure.

To reiterate. I don't mind getting pummeled. I don't mind that a warr is going to 100% CC me at some point and nail their arcing slice/100B. I do mind not actually being able to do anything - this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

It seems like a lot of people vastly overestimate what a single stack of stability will do to a necro. For other classes, stability means avoiding a CC + avoiding the expected follow up...going with my earlier example, this means the warr won't be able to link bull charge into a burst skill. Stunbreaks on other classes mean being able to use an evade, blind, w/e to avoid the skill that has the threat of their death attached.

Necro has two dodges, and after that they're gonna get hit by everything. Even reaper, who has that sexy pulsing stab - you can still keep hammering them through that, but reaper feels so much better because even if you're getting pounded 99% of the time (two dodges aside), you can at least hit back. SCOURGE felt better because you at least had a few buttons to press while waiting for the CC chain to end that could maybe help a little (rip scourge).

Also, side note, but CC duration is absolutely bonkers. I'm gonna pick on bull charge (again). Good god, three seconds. What brilliant mind decided the warr needed three whole seconds? 2, or even 1 sec would be perfectly fine.

Now - I admit this is partially a problem with other classes' design, powercreep, yadda yadda, and I'm not saying necro doesn't have issues either. This is also a problem with, I think, the how. Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

[Sobx.1758]

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

[Curennos.9307]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

Facts:

1. Necro elites are straight up upgrades, not just alternatives to core necro.
2. Both have better stab access and no one is complaining,
3. They are considered balanced/slighly undertuned compared to rest of professions.

So instead of trying to get my point across which we all know wil fail i will ask you Sobx:"What is your reason for so adamantely resisting the idea of core necro (and only core) getting better access to stab?"

Because it's completely reasonable to expect players to make meaningful choices to get things they want at the expense of other things. In short ... there isn't a problem here to fix. I would go so far as to say that making good choices to overcome deficiencies (whether those are tactical OR strategic choices) is a sign of understanding how to play and being a good player ... but most people won't accept that they have things to learn ... or aren't as good as they think they are.

This thread is just a good example of trying to get exactly what you want with zero regard for WHY it exists the way it does to begin with. Maybe if you spent more time trying to understand the current situation by observing how the game works, you would need to spend less time asking for things that aren't realistic within the framework of the game to begin with.

Okay, Obetna. Why is it that Core Necromancer has the absolute least avoidance mechanics out of every profession

and

has no usable Stability to stop an incoming CC or cover an important cast? Since you apparently know everything about how and why this game is designed, please tell us.

Easy ... because that's the way the devs designed it. I know you are looking for some deep analysis here, but it's not as complicated as you want it to be. You MUST bring yourself to be satisfied that

whatever

approach the devs used to design necro with it's strengths and weaknesses, you won't ever know it to argue the design is wrong. The compensation they provide us to that: they give us choice. Use it.

Ah yes, the "Devs are allmighty all-knowing gods that never make a mistake!" approach.

News flash: game developers are human. They screw up. They fail to realize their visions fully. They sometimes just don't think a particular section of their game is important.

They are not always right. Maybe their desire is to have professions have clear, defined weaknesses. In that case, they're failing with the other 8 professions. Maybe it's that they should each have playstyles, but have the tools they need to function well in any given situation (use of said tools is on the players). In that case, they're failing with the Necro.

If their vision really is as you blatantly insist for the Necro to be the only profession with clear weaknesses regardless of build, then it's a bad vision for the game, alienating an expected 1/9th of the player base.

I don't even play the game anymore except for getting festival rewards and playing new story content. I don't enjoy it because of how underwhelming Necro feels right now. Could I swap? Sure, but I've spent so much time into gearing my Necro that my secondary characters aren't ready to go. I can't transfer my full Ascended armor to my Ranger, for example, nor half my legendary gear. I have better things to do than gearing up my second or third choice of character because my main just isn't fun to play right now.

[Sobx.1758]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

It's not "yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems " -it's "yes, this is how this game works, yes you need to make choices, no you shouldn't have stab sprinkled over your already desired non-stab skills, because that's not the point and it's not how it should work ".

[Curennos.9307]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

It's not "

yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems

" -it's "

yes, this is how this game works, yes you need to make choices, no you shouldn't have stab sprinkled over your already desired non-stab skills, because that's not the point and it's not how it should work

".

I'm happy to discuss things - but not if you're going to sprout off what's already been addressed as if your idea of what should and should not be is 'the' way supported by fallacies. A statement of reality is not a reason as to why it should remain that way - scourges were ridiculously strong early on, then got nerfed. A factual list of 'scourge can do xyz' did not help them in the slightest to convince the devs that xyz should remain. Same for buffs and nuffs across all classes.

Did you even read my post? I can give you a list of things that don't involve stability in the slightest.

Edit: Also, I counter 'this is how it should work' with 'necros should have more stability access'. Take that, fiend!

[Obtena.7952]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

Facts:

1. Necro elites are straight up upgrades, not just alternatives to core necro.
2. Both have better stab access and no one is complaining,
3. They are considered balanced/slighly undertuned compared to rest of professions.

So instead of trying to get my point across which we all know wil fail i will ask you Sobx:"What is your reason for so adamantely resisting the idea of core necro (and only core) getting better access to stab?"

Because it's completely reasonable to expect players to make meaningful choices to get things they want at the expense of other things. In short ... there isn't a problem here to fix. I would go so far as to say that making good choices to overcome deficiencies (whether those are tactical OR strategic choices) is a sign of understanding how to play and being a good player ... but most people won't accept that they have things to learn ... or aren't as good as they think they are.

This thread is just a good example of trying to get exactly what you want with zero regard for WHY it exists the way it does to begin with. Maybe if you spent more time trying to understand the current situation by observing how the game works, you would need to spend less time asking for things that aren't realistic within the framework of the game to begin with.

Okay, Obetna. Why is it that Core Necromancer has the absolute least avoidance mechanics out of every profession

and

has no usable Stability to stop an incoming CC or cover an important cast? Since you apparently know everything about how and why this game is designed, please tell us.

Easy ... because that's the way the devs designed it. I know you are looking for some deep analysis here, but it's not as complicated as you want it to be. You MUST bring yourself to be satisfied that

whatever

approach the devs used to design necro with it's strengths and weaknesses, you won't ever know it to argue the design is wrong. The compensation they provide us to that: they give us choice. Use it.

Ah yes, the "Devs are allmighty all-knowing gods that never make a mistake!" approach.

Nope ... they are just the ones that determine how things work and know why they work as they do. Don't need to be a god for that. Just need to be on the dev team at Anet. They can do wrong ... but they are STILL going to do far better in the framework they want better than any ignorant player on the forum can.

[Sobx.1758]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

It's not "

yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems

" -it's "

yes, this is how this game works, yes you need to make choices, no you shouldn't have stab sprinkled over your already desired non-stab skills, because that's not the point and it's not how it should work

".

I'm happy to discuss things - but not if you're going to sprout off what's already been addressed as if your idea of what should and should not be is 'the' way supported by fallacies. A statement of reality is not a reason as to why it should remain that way - scourges were ridiculously strong early on, then got nerfed. A factual list of 'scourge can do xyz' did not help them in the slightest to convince the devs that xyz should remain. Same for buffs and nuffs across all classes.

It's not "supported by fallacies", it's just that people claiming their desired builds should get some bonus stab on top of it is clearly wrong and makes absolutely no sense at its core. Someone in this thread literally tried to claim you should be able to take any build you want and achieve the same thing -I think that's just missing the point of actually making meaningful choices.Scourge was so strong that it easly dominated certain aspects of the game, it was a blatanlty obvious powercreep, it was very clearly too strong compared to anything else, I'm not sure how you're comparing this to me saying that something "is a regular occurance in the game". It's like you're giving me the literal opposite of what I said and with that you're trying to claim what I said was wrong? I don't understand your logic here. It wasn't "the statement of releaty" as in "you don't have x so it's fine", it was "this is clearly how this game works, so stop using it as an argument as if your class is some exception here because it's not".

Did you even read my post? I can give you a list of things that don't involve stability in the slightest.

What else is there to comment on? This is a thread about giving bonus stab, so that's what I'm focusing on.You want me to focus on the dmg? CC duration? Why would I? There's already a huge re-balance patch planned for ~march, why would I go on some rant trip about something that's already getting changed (except I doubt cc duration will be touched)? I don't see the point, so I'm skipping that one. I don't think it makes my comment any less relevant to what you said regarding the issue this thread is actually about though.

[Obtena.7952]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

Here is what I think ... if the game is GENERALLY moving to more CC's, fixing that is NOT done within the class toolset.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Are Sobx and Obetna just two accounts from the same person? At this point, I honestly am having trouble telling the difference, since both of them are just "nuh-uh, the way things are is the right way! Player opinion shouldn't matter!"

[Ghos.1326]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:Yup, I say "easy", because it is easy.And remember to keep crying about power creep, but when it comes to proposing the changes to the game, don't try to reduce the power creep, instead just kittening buff EVERYTHING to the faceroll level. Perfectly logical solution.

While I agree with you that the necromancer have easy access to stab (when built for it) and overall a balanced amount of stab sources

And that's really all there is to it -but somehow people are still arguing they don't have enough stab when they don't even use what's available to them.You say that they complain because they are weaker than others against hard cc -I disagree, it's more like they're weeker than some and still stronger than the others. Also from what I see, they mostly want to have stab splattered "here and there" throughout their fav builds just so they can faceroll more. That's just stupid.

Tell me, how many blocks does Necro have? How many evades? How about invulnerabilities? Vigor? Endurance regeneration at all?

The answer for all of those is 0. So, given that even with Blinds, Necro is very weak with only Deathly Swarm (slow projectile) and Well of Darkness for Blinds with a cast time short enough to use in response to an incoming attack, Necro has no choice but to facetank virtually all incoming CC. Other professions have options to outright avoid it. Necro doesn't.

Which is why they have amazing life force gain, giving them an extra 22k health in shroud, on top of their already naturally high health pool outside of it.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:Are Sobx and Obetna just two accounts from the same person? At this point, I honestly am having trouble telling the difference, since both of them are just "nuh-uh, the way things are is the right way! Player opinion shouldn't matter!"

Imagine that ... two people that 'get it'. Opinions that the game doesn't work the way you want it to ... irrelevant. Just because you have an opinion doesn't make that a compelling reason to change the game? You should give yourself a second to think about why that kind of thinking doesn't make sense.

[Curennos.9307]

people claiming their desired builds

This is the necromancer forum. I'm a thief main, if you must know.

clearly wrong and makes absolutely no sense at its core

Hence my offer to summarize.

It wasn't "the statement of releaty" as in "you don't have x so it's fine", it was "this is clearly how this game works, so stop using it as an argument as if your class is some exception here because it's not".

Reality/how the game works. It seems, though, that you mean 'each class has a given set of strengths and weaknesses - lack of stability is a designated weakness of necro, and it looks like you're just complaining that your class has weaknesses, like a thief complaining about their low health pool'. y/n?

What else is there to comment on? This is a thread about giving bonus stab for no good reason, so that's what I'm focusing on.

You miss quite a lot of other factors this way. For example...

Now - I admit this is partially a problem with other classes' design, powercreep, yadda yadda, and I'm not saying necro doesn't have issues either. This is also a problem with, I think, the how. Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

By no means do I just want to, as you say, 'giving bonus stab for no good reason'. I very clearly acknowledged the potential issue. My beef is that there is no meaningful choice.

The opportunity cost of giving up the stunbreak -> mobility skill for something else that serves a similar purpose (keeping me alive xD) but doesn't have xyz the previous skill might have is nowhere near an even trade off. The choice isn't meaningful in the slightest. In particular, I want to point out that this is an issue for necromancer over other classes because necromancer is the designated xyz...

Pause - I think we can agree that necro is the designated...shall we say, lacking mobility, lacking evades, blocks, defensive boons (prot, aegis), and defends itself through a combination of widespread damage and basically being a health blob, yes? Anywho, that's what I mean by 'designated xyz'.

So. Current utility picks mean the slowest class, the designated 'lacking mobility, etcetc'

By god I would happily give up wurm and such if there was another skill I could take that give a proportionate amount of durability in combat, but there isn't. Necromancer's strengths - its method of damage absorption, how it deals damage - are negated to varying extents by its weaknesses at the moment. Having mobility kinda screws over the whole 'able to remain fighting cuz it can take lots of damage and still keep going', doesn't it.

Which is why I wanted you to focus on something other than just 'this person wants to add stab'. There's a lot involved - powercreep from other classes, the duration of CCs that goes above and beyond just letting the attacker land their hard hitting skills and into negating necro's intended offensive strengths and turning it into a punching bag (especially in teamfights), the lack of meaning ful choices/options in utilities that shove utility choices towards port-stunbreaks.

Now, an example. Core necro shroud4. They cast it. Super long cast. Will they ever manage to cast it fully? Likely not - partially because of CC, partially because the skill is kinda bad and it may or may not be worth interrupting. What would change if a stack of stability was added to cover the cast? Not...much, really - beyond that the necro would be able to actually play their class. Now, of course, if the skill is buffed to the point of being lethal, then sure, the interrupt-important-skills dynamic should def be a thing and no stab. But this is an example. Ultimately, adding stab would give the necro some..what's the word, agency? The ability to actually utilize their strengths while maintaining their weaknesses? Cuz really, you can keep on hammering the necro throughout the entire cast. What're they gonna do? Dodge? SNORT.

Anywho. I meant to write more, delete some, organize this a bit more, but I gotta go for a bit. Toodles o/

[Curennos.9307]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

Here is what I think ... if the game is GENERALLY moving to more CC's, fixing that is NOT done within the class toolset.

That's exactly where the CCs are coming from, though. Although I would definitely love a DR or stack of stab on stunbreaks - something to prevent CC chains from negating that sorta thing.

[Obtena.7952]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

Here is what I think ... if the game is GENERALLY moving to more CC's, fixing that is NOT done within the class toolset.

That's exactly where the CCs are coming from, though. Although I would definitely love a DR or stack of stab on stunbreaks - something to prevent CC chains from negating that sorta thing.

Hey, that's true but it doesn't necessarily indicate THE way to fix it is at the class level. Even your post hints that the fix COULD be something to prevent CC chains ... why is the favoured approach to that a class level solution? IF CC chaining is actually a problem game wide, it's a problem for EVERYONE. I think addressing that at the class level is the least-effective approach.

Frankly, I believe the best way to address CC chaining is cooldown timer with a rule. That's not a class based solution ... even though the CC originates with the class.

[Axl.8924]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

Here is what I think ... if the game is GENERALLY moving to more CC's, fixing that is NOT done within the class toolset.

That's exactly where the CCs are coming from, though. Although I would definitely love a DR or stack of stab on stunbreaks - something to prevent CC chains from negating that sorta thing.

Hey, that's true but it doesn't necessarily indicate THE way to fix it is at the class level. Even your post hints that the fix COULD be something to prevent CC chains ... why is the favoured approach to that a class level solution? IF CC chaining is actually a problem game wide, it's a problem for EVERYONE. I think addressing that at the class level is the least-effective approach.

Frankly, I believe the best way to address CC chaining is cooldown timer with a rule. That's not a class-based solution ... even though the CC originates with the class.

It has to be though, because some classes are literally toxic with cc spam dmg mobility, and guess who one of the culprits are(long lost buddy the thief)

Although revs can also throw some fairly easy too.

Problem is, if some classes only way to land dmg is with hard cc, it makes sense also not to over nerf it(warr if it's true) It probably needs to be looked at for efficiency's sake to see where it has trouble and needs to be fixed.

Anyways I think cc spam should be reduced rather than add a lot more stun breaks by making cc need to be a hard decision rather than be mindless about it. and how does this follow what he said? obviously, every class has hard ccs and some use more than others. the ones Who can spam easy while doing mobility and crazy 2 shots or similar need looked at.

[Obtena.7952]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

Here is what I think ... if the game is GENERALLY moving to more CC's, fixing that is NOT done within the class toolset.

That's exactly where the CCs are coming from, though. Although I would definitely love a DR or stack of stab on stunbreaks - something to prevent CC chains from negating that sorta thing.

Hey, that's true but it doesn't necessarily indicate THE way to fix it is at the class level. Even your post hints that the fix COULD be something to prevent CC chains ... why is the favoured approach to that a class level solution? IF CC chaining is actually a problem game wide, it's a problem for EVERYONE. I think addressing that at the class level is the least-effective approach.

Frankly, I believe the best way to address CC chaining is cooldown timer with a rule. That's not a class-based solution ... even though the CC originates with the class.

It has to be though, because some classes are literally toxic with cc spam dmg mobility, and guess who one of the culprits are(long lost buddy the thief)

That doesn't make sense. Classes being toxic with CC spam doesn't HAVE to mean there can't be a global solution to being Chain CC'ed. You only think that way because you already convinced yourself the solution is stability on whatever skills you want to use on Necro. If you can't imagine a solution, that doesn't mean there isn't one.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Well as the maker of the threat I'd like to make my point short and clear:

1. Reaper has good access to stab, it works well and no one complains.
2. Scourge can potentially have even better access then reaper (Feed from corruption), no one complains.
3. Core has worse access to stab then both, borderline thief level.

And no, core being "tanky" does not balance it out, because that is balanced by reaper shroud being vastly superior in combat both dps, and utility wise, and scourge's shades having huge party utility and ability to be casted even when cc'd down to the ground.

If things were fine and balanced you'd see core necro addressing the cc chain spam with varied builds and traitline selections. Because there would be real tools to handle the problem there. Take ranger for example, who can build for stealth, evades, massive self healing, ranged combat with traps to deny enemy engages, prolonged immunity to direct damage not to mention the obvious stability. He has varied ways to not let himself get victimized. Necro? two dodges, then facetank time. If it's a hard cc or worse off yet - a cc chain, that face is gonna be in the ground with little means to escape or retalliate, unless he makes the "choice" of flesh wurm, spectral walk (or another stunbreak) and Foot in the grave...

[Curennos.9307]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.

Attach stability to any half-decent utility and necro will probably immediately gravitate towards that utility, aaaand not much will change. Same for if you shove it in a trait line somewhere. Speaking just for core necro, having some stab attached specifically to shroud4 in the form of two pulse - one after the first sec (to give enemies time to interrupt) and one at the end to be used for whatever they like.

You realize this is not limited just to necro in this game, right? Reserving at least some of the slots for stunbreaks (preferably with attached mobility for obvious reasons) in competitive modes seems like a no brainer and I don't think there's a reason to pretend it's true just for necro. Still not a reason to sprinkle stab/stunbreaks over already picked skills/traits. Actually it's the opposite.

Would you like a summary of the main points and conclusion of my post? I'm not too interested in springing off a quote of two paragraphs picked from lots more that goes on an unrelated tangent easily addressed by 'yes, necro has problems, yes, other classes have problems, yes we all know this but do we really have to state that every single time'.

Here is what I think ... if the game is GENERALLY moving to more CC's, fixing that is NOT done within the class toolset.

That's exactly where the CCs are coming from, though. Although I would definitely love a DR or stack of stab on stunbreaks - something to prevent CC chains from negating that sorta thing.

Hey, that's true but it doesn't necessarily indicate THE way to fix it is at the class level. Even your post hints that the fix COULD be something to prevent CC chains ... why is the favoured approach to that a class level solution? IF CC chaining is actually a problem game wide, it's a problem for EVERYONE. I think addressing that at the class level is the least-effective approach.

Frankly, I believe the best way to address CC chaining is cooldown timer with a rule. That's not a class based solution ... even though the CC originates with the class.

Something I really enjoy about GW2 is the uniqueness of the classes compared to other games. It's one of the main reasons I've stuck with the game for as long as I have. Which...results in a wariness about that sort of thing - still, I can admit this is probably a 'why not both' scenario.

Some classes probs have too much CC, or too little or too much soft CC, etc, and those'd require a class-level look-over. I am def behind a 'cannot CC a target that is already CC'd' tho, combined with shaves to CC durations. Something like that. Maybe add 1sec of stab to stunbreaks.

Edit: Also, GW2 has some deep, deep mechanical problems I'm hesitant to try and poke at. Class-based changed are more limited in scope and I'm less likely to say something really dumb that, if implemented, ends in disaster xD Like Bull's Charge. The overall impact of lowering the knockdown to 1 sec instead of 3 sec would be very, very small. The change above would probs be enough to shake up the meta.

[Shroud.2307]

I was a part of a group fight in WvW yesterday that made me think of this thread.

There was maybe 6 of us and 8 opponents skirmishing around two of the walls at Stonemist Castle that were down. The enemy group was mostly hanging around inside SMC with 2 of the Mesmers occasionally pushing out only to be instantly pressured and forced to go back in.

2 of the people on our side were Necromancers. Myself, and someone else. I was playing core condition Necromancer, the other was playing power Reaper.

This fight went on for a good hour or so. Many times the enemy group would push our group back, and many times we would push them. I was using only one stunbreak and had no Stability. Many times when the offending group gained the upper hand, I would take a defensive position on the edge of the SMC outer wall beneath the canons where I could not be teleported to and could LOS to force melee. I died once this entire hour of fighting and many times I secured or created downs by applying pressure in the correct places. A few of the enemy players knew I needed to be killed and made multiple attempts to focus me down, but because I positioned myself correctly, many of those times resulted in them losing players rather than killing me.

This entire time, the other Necromancer, the one that reminded me of this thread, was dying and returning to the fight repeatedly and rushing in to the center of the fight, often times ahead of his entire team. With his superior access to Stability and greater potential to domino downed players by bombing other downed, he still managed to be useless because he constantly failed to position himself.

It really isn't a hard concept to grasp yet so many people seem unable to do so. Necro ( the class as a whole ) is lacking in certain defenses but is overflowing in offenses. If it is given too much defense it retains the ability to be the biggest threat in a group while also being much harder to punish. Yes, in it's current form it is relatively vulnerable in 1 v 1's, but nothing in this game is balanced around that so it's irrelevant. You need to have proper awareness, positioning and trust in your teammates to survive and to be the biggest impact. No amount of defense will save you from a proper focus fire from an offending team, but intelligent maneuvering can lead to that team losing players in the process or even full wiping. You have the power to control how far they extend when they commit their focus to you, use that to your advantage.

For the final time, because I don't want to be misunderstood, I agree that Stability access on Necro and Scourge could use some minor buffs. But when I say minor, I mean 1 additional stack or 1 or 2 additional seconds on existing sources. Changes over time, like the reduction in cooldown to Spectral Walk or the rework to Spectral Wall, have made Necro much more difficult to pin down if they play properly. If it becomes too much harder to lock down imagine how hard it would be to kill with support.

[Shroud.2307]

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:Yes. Because they have no other choice in order to survive Because of stab deficiency, core necros are often forced to build escape utilities, killing build diversity.You're annoyed with necro getting away? I as core necro am annoyed with having to get away. I would much rather stay and fight, but since i'm denied reasonable amounts of stab or other escape mechanics i know that would not be a fight, just once sided cc+ damage beatdown.

Then you're not reading fight properly. It's impossible to always make the right decisions or to constantly be aware of everything happening around you, so sometimes mistakes will be made, no one's doubting that. But you have to understand the weaknesses of your class and the impact you can have with it's strengths and you have to employ those strengths to compensate for your lack of defenses with proper awareness.

Situate yourself properly by abusing difficult terrain, blind spots, players with support builds, etc. and surround yourself with outside defenses. Sometimes a commitment on your position will be made by the enemy in which case you may not be able to escape but if you've claimed proper ground, you can either force a retreat or an over commital on your position causing the enemy to lose people in the process.

1 v 1's or being caught in the open are irrelevant. Some classes/builds are capable of handling them, others are not. If we're talking PvP, Necro has it's role as does everything else. Some times things fall from the meta, but the meta changes. Necro has been an important part of team fights in both WvW and PvP for a very long time because it has a greater potential to turn the favor of a fight than anything else.

I'm going to share an old video of mine as it has some relevance to the discussion here. For the most part I'm not being focused, so it isn't a perfect reference. But if you notice how quickly I retreat when I feel the flow of a fight turning my direction, how I'm always prepared with an escape plan, or how I can tell exactly where it's safe to push in even when I'm right in the thick of a fight, you'll see how much of a difference awareness can make.

• Note: I have 2.4k armor in this video. I'm not full glass, but nearly. I have no support, I still push deep in the group or ride their tail very close, and I probably create more downed than anyone else.

https://youtu.be/J-LrC6CkZjc?t=67