Buff core necro stability access

Axl.8924 · January 12, 2020

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@XECOR.2814 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
@KrHome.1920 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Core has the most sustain of the necro specs. It has good ranged pressure and is very duarable. Its should not have equal amounts of anti cc defense like the elite specs.

No. The tankiest should have the least damage and that's the case with core. I don't buy that scourge has less damage then core, sorry. Also tanky usually also includes being resiliant to cc. Who saw a tank that goes face down to ground from slightest fart? That's squish dpser's trait that has to use mobility and careful positioning to avoid cc. Low damage but tanky specs should be the last guys to be ragdolls.

You already have easy access to stab, you choose to use something else and now you want to add a free stab on top of "your desired build". That makes no sense.

Much wisdom here ... the fact is that Anet does give us this option, so for anyone to argue we need more ... is cringe-worthy. It's always amazing to me how readily people will dismiss the idea that difficult choices and deficiencies are actually INTENDED.

@Nimon.7840 said:
@Virdo.1540 said:i hope they wont give core necro more stab. Its ony if the only counters for necros

Except for long range and mobility being as effective as cc against a necro and also not being able to block or evade any attack with a weapon or utility skill.

Which makes it the class with the most weaknesses

Maybe ... but that's not a reason to change it either. Again, you don't think it's conceivable Anet intends for some classes to be harder to play than others by having these weaknesses? I absolutely think it is. I doubt most people understand this but ... it's what makes MMO PVP infinitely more interesting than FPS games.

This comment assumes that everything in game is intended which is not true and necro in general has more weakness than any other class so there is no reason to not let them breath a bit with good stab access.

Necro already has stab access, there is no reason to overload already popular builds with free stab on top of already picked skills/traits just because you want to faceroll on your keyboard a bit more.

What drarnor said is right, it is ridiculous to expect one class to be hard countered by every class, when meanwhile PU mes or whatever one-shot mirage blow up people while evading infinitely warrs leaping hard cc 1 shot or rifle 1 shots thieves stealth 1 shot with infinite disengages revs insane mobility combined with dmg and hard cc.

I'm not sure how's that an answer to what I wrote.

Either everyone needs to be nerfed down to our level for fair play, or we need some of our weaknesses covered because we have too much.

Yup, smashing stab everywhere isn't a solution to anything.

Necro needs help to deal with being cced to death and blown up. It needs its cc's either to be stronger to slow folks down to our level to give an equal playing field, or we need mobility and evades to deal with cc and hard bursts.

Toughness, for instance, won't save necromancers often, because we will be kited cced and blown up in 2-3 sec when focused because everyone has hard bursts plus mobility and sustain and hard cc. Necromancers are simply not built to deal with it, so it needs to be a bit stronger because its simply not fun. Sure there are masochists who enjoy the challenge and we all want a challenge, but this goes beyond that realm into the realm of simply so hard countered it literally takes the fun out of the game when no matter what you do, you are simply going to die when focused even 1 by player.

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good, and this needs fixed ASAP because this contributes to the death of this game.

EremiteAngel.9765 · January 12, 2020

@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@XECOR.2814 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
@KrHome.1920 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Core has the most sustain of the necro specs. It has good ranged pressure and is very duarable. Its should not have equal amounts of anti cc defense like the elite specs.

No. The tankiest should have the least damage and that's the case with core. I don't buy that scourge has less damage then core, sorry. Also tanky usually also includes being resiliant to cc. Who saw a tank that goes face down to ground from slightest fart? That's squish dpser's trait that has to use mobility and careful positioning to avoid cc. Low damage but tanky specs should be the last guys to be ragdolls.

You already have easy access to stab, you choose to use something else and now you want to add a free stab on top of "your desired build". That makes no sense.

Much wisdom here ... the fact is that Anet does give us this option, so for anyone to argue we need more ... is cringe-worthy. It's always amazing to me how readily people will dismiss the idea that difficult choices and deficiencies are actually INTENDED.

@Nimon.7840 said:
@Virdo.1540 said:i hope they wont give core necro more stab. Its ony if the only counters for necros

Except for long range and mobility being as effective as cc against a necro and also not being able to block or evade any attack with a weapon or utility skill.

Which makes it the class with the most weaknesses

Maybe ... but that's not a reason to change it either. Again, you don't think it's conceivable Anet intends for some classes to be harder to play than others by having these weaknesses? I absolutely think it is. I doubt most people understand this but ... it's what makes MMO PVP infinitely more interesting than FPS games.

This comment assumes that everything in game is intended which is not true and necro in general has more weakness than any other class so there is no reason to not let them breath a bit with good stab access.

Necro already has stab access, there is no reason to overload already popular builds with free stab on top of already picked skills/traits just because you want to faceroll on your keyboard a bit more.

What drarnor said is right, it is ridiculous to expect one class to be hard countered by every class, when meanwhile PU mes or whatever one-shot mirage blow up people while evading infinitely warrs leaping hard cc 1 shot or rifle 1 shots thieves stealth 1 shot with infinite disengages revs insane mobility combined with dmg and hard cc.

I'm not sure how's that an answer to what I wrote.

Either everyone needs to be nerfed down to our level for fair play, or we need some of our weaknesses covered because we have too much.

Yup, smashing stab everywhere isn't a solution to anything.

Necro needs help to deal with being cced to death and blown up. It needs its cc's either to be stronger to slow folks down to our level to give an equal playing field, or we need mobility and evades to deal with cc and hard bursts.

Toughness, for instance, won't save necromancers often, because we will be kited cced and blown up in 2-3 sec when focused because everyone has hard bursts plus mobility and sustain and hard cc. Necromancers are simply not built to deal with it, so it needs to be a bit stronger because its simply not fun. Sure there are masochists who enjoy the challenge and we all want a challenge, but this goes beyond that realm into the realm of simply so hard countered it literally takes the fun out of the game when no matter what you do, you are simply going to die when focused even 1 by player.

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good, and this needs fixed ASAP because this contributes to the death of this game.

They won't understand us Axl.The problem is that other classes have been living in their sky-castles for too long.They've forgotten what it feels like to be a peasant.It is hard for them to empathize with what a Necro is going through.

Just look at the thread by a ranger in WvW asking for warclaw lance nerf because he can no longer disengage and escape easily once he enters combat.In the past, they had a high chance of escaping with their high mobility/stealth classes if things didn't go their way.Now, the lance and mount is making things harder for them.And the princes and princesses are upset that a toy has been taken from them.

To a Necro, lack of mobility and range is something he has had to endure for all his life.Look at all the other melee weapons and builds on other classes.They all pretty much got a MOBILITY skill on their melee weapons to help them close gaps.Necros are close-mid range fighters but we got ZERO mobility skill on our weapons.This is just laughable.

But Necros are super strong in close-mid range! They got 2nd health bar too! They are rightfully slow!PLEASE.EVERY CLASS HAS SUPER STRONG CLOSE-MID RANGE BUILDS TOO.THEIR BLOCKS AND INVULNERABLES AND EVADES AND STEALTH HAS MORE VALUE THAN SHROUD TOO.I don't see them being crippled by limited mobility?In fact, it is usually the opposite because they get extra movement skills on melee weapons.

Begone princes and princesses of the sky-castles.

Sobx.1758 · January 12, 2020

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@XECOR.2814 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
@KrHome.1920 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Core has the most sustain of the necro specs. It has good ranged pressure and is very duarable. Its should not have equal amounts of anti cc defense like the elite specs.

No. The tankiest should have the least damage and that's the case with core. I don't buy that scourge has less damage then core, sorry. Also tanky usually also includes being resiliant to cc. Who saw a tank that goes face down to ground from slightest fart? That's squish dpser's trait that has to use mobility and careful positioning to avoid cc. Low damage but tanky specs should be the last guys to be ragdolls.

You already have easy access to stab, you choose to use something else and now you want to add a free stab on top of "your desired build". That makes no sense.

Much wisdom here ... the fact is that Anet does give us this option, so for anyone to argue we need more ... is cringe-worthy. It's always amazing to me how readily people will dismiss the idea that difficult choices and deficiencies are actually INTENDED.

@Nimon.7840 said:
@"Virdo.1540" said:i hope they wont give core necro more stab. Its ony if the only counters for necros

Except for long range and mobility being as effective as cc against a necro and also not being able to block or evade any attack with a weapon or utility skill.

Which makes it the class with the most weaknesses

Maybe ... but that's not a reason to change it either. Again, you don't think it's conceivable Anet intends for some classes to be harder to play than others by having these weaknesses? I absolutely think it is. I doubt most people understand this but ... it's what makes MMO PVP infinitely more interesting than FPS games.

This comment assumes that everything in game is intended which is not true and necro in general has more weakness than any other class so there is no reason to not let them breath a bit with good stab access.

Necro already has stab access, there is no reason to overload already popular builds with free stab on top of already picked skills/traits just because you want to faceroll on your keyboard a bit more.

What drarnor said is right, it is ridiculous to expect one class to be hard countered by every class, when meanwhile PU mes or whatever one-shot mirage blow up people while evading infinitely warrs leaping hard cc 1 shot or rifle 1 shots thieves stealth 1 shot with infinite disengages revs insane mobility combined with dmg and hard cc.

I'm not sure how's that an answer to what I wrote.

Either everyone needs to be nerfed down to our level for fair play, or we need some of our weaknesses covered because we have too much.

Yup, smashing stab everywhere isn't a solution to anything.

Necro needs help to deal with being cced to death and blown up. It needs its cc's either to be stronger to slow folks down to our level to give an equal playing field, or we need mobility and evades to deal with cc and hard bursts.

Toughness, for instance, won't save necromancers often, because we will be kited cced and blown up in 2-3 sec when focused because everyone has hard bursts plus mobility and sustain and hard cc. Necromancers are simply not built to deal with it, so it needs to be a bit stronger because its simply not fun. Sure there are masochists who enjoy the challenge and we all want a challenge, but this goes beyond that realm into the realm of simply so hard countered it literally takes the fun out of the game when no matter what you do, you are simply going to die when focused even 1 by player.

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good, and this needs fixed ASAP because this contributes to the death of this game.

They won't understand us Axl.The problem is that other classes have been living in their sky-castles for too long.\

The problem is that you're treating this as an "us vs them" issue, because -probably?- all you do is sit on a single class and as such you want to have upper hand in every situation in the game on that one exact class. I'm just switching classes/specs/builds according to what I want to do. If necro can deal with kiters while spamming stab off anything they want then what exactly can't they do?

They've forgotten what it feels like to be a peasant.It is hard for them to empathize with what a Necro is going through.

Now you're just being melodramatic for no reason btw.

Just look at the thread by a ranger in WvW asking for warclaw lance nerf because he can no longer disengage and escape easily once he enters combat.In the past, they had a high chance of escaping with their high mobility/stealth classes if things didn't go their way.Now, the lance and mount is making things harder for them.And the princes and princesses are upset that a toy has been taken from them.

...and I don't see why you're trying to bundle me with this kind of people. That's just your baseless imagination.

To a Necro, lack of mobility and range is something he has had to endure for all his life.Look at all the other melee weapons and builds on other classes.They all pretty much got a MOBILITY skill on their melee weapons to help them close gaps.Necros are close-mid range fighters but we got ZERO mobility skill on our weapons.This is just laughable.
But Necros are super strong in close-mid range! They got 2nd health bar too! They are rightfully slow!PLEASE.EVERY CLASS HAS SUPER STRONG CLOSE-MID RANGE BUILDS TOO.THEIR BLOCKS AND INVULNERABLES AND EVADES AND STEALTH HAS MORE VALUE THAN SHROUD TOO.I don't see them being crippled by limited mobility?In fact, it is usually the opposite because they get extra movement skills on melee weapons.
Begone princes and princesses of the sky-castles.

Go play different classes then o/

Anyways, apparently a massive re-balance patch will arrive around march so anything people type here is probably already more or less irrelevant.

Sobx.1758 · January 12, 2020

@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@XECOR.2814 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
@KrHome.1920 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Core has the most sustain of the necro specs. It has good ranged pressure and is very duarable. Its should not have equal amounts of anti cc defense like the elite specs.

No. The tankiest should have the least damage and that's the case with core. I don't buy that scourge has less damage then core, sorry. Also tanky usually also includes being resiliant to cc. Who saw a tank that goes face down to ground from slightest fart? That's squish dpser's trait that has to use mobility and careful positioning to avoid cc. Low damage but tanky specs should be the last guys to be ragdolls.

You already have easy access to stab, you choose to use something else and now you want to add a free stab on top of "your desired build". That makes no sense.

Much wisdom here ... the fact is that Anet does give us this option, so for anyone to argue we need more ... is cringe-worthy. It's always amazing to me how readily people will dismiss the idea that difficult choices and deficiencies are actually INTENDED.

@Nimon.7840 said:
@"Virdo.1540" said:i hope they wont give core necro more stab. Its ony if the only counters for necros

Except for long range and mobility being as effective as cc against a necro and also not being able to block or evade any attack with a weapon or utility skill.

Which makes it the class with the most weaknesses

Maybe ... but that's not a reason to change it either. Again, you don't think it's conceivable Anet intends for some classes to be harder to play than others by having these weaknesses? I absolutely think it is. I doubt most people understand this but ... it's what makes MMO PVP infinitely more interesting than FPS games.

This comment assumes that everything in game is intended which is not true and necro in general has more weakness than any other class so there is no reason to not let them breath a bit with good stab access.

Necro already has stab access, there is no reason to overload already popular builds with free stab on top of already picked skills/traits just because you want to faceroll on your keyboard a bit more.

What drarnor said is right, it is ridiculous to expect one class to be hard countered by every class, when meanwhile PU mes or whatever one-shot mirage blow up people while evading infinitely warrs leaping hard cc 1 shot or rifle 1 shots thieves stealth 1 shot with infinite disengages revs insane mobility combined with dmg and hard cc.

I'm not sure how's that an answer to what I wrote.

Either everyone needs to be nerfed down to our level for fair play, or we need some of our weaknesses covered because we have too much.

Yup, smashing stab everywhere isn't a solution to anything.

Necro needs help to deal with being cced to death and blown up. It needs its cc's either to be stronger to slow folks down to our level to give an equal playing field, or we need mobility and evades to deal with cc and hard bursts.

Toughness, for instance, won't save necromancers often, because we will be kited cced and blown up in 2-3 sec when focused because everyone has hard bursts plus mobility and sustain and hard cc. Necromancers are simply not built to deal with it, so it needs to be a bit stronger because its simply not fun. Sure there are masochists who enjoy the challenge and we all want a challenge, but this goes beyond that realm into the realm of simply so hard countered it literally takes the fun out of the game when no matter what you do, you are simply going to die when focused even 1 by player.

Cool, that's your opinion, I'm fine to "agree to disagree", because it's getting kind of boring.

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good, and this needs fixed ASAP because this contributes to the death of this game.

Any solid examples of this happening?

Axl.8924 · January 12, 2020

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@XECOR.2814 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
@KrHome.1920 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Core has the most sustain of the necro specs. It has good ranged pressure and is very duarable. Its should not have equal amounts of anti cc defense like the elite specs.

No. The tankiest should have the least damage and that's the case with core. I don't buy that scourge has less damage then core, sorry. Also tanky usually also includes being resiliant to cc. Who saw a tank that goes face down to ground from slightest fart? That's squish dpser's trait that has to use mobility and careful positioning to avoid cc. Low damage but tanky specs should be the last guys to be ragdolls.

You already have easy access to stab, you choose to use something else and now you want to add a free stab on top of "your desired build". That makes no sense.

Much wisdom here ... the fact is that Anet does give us this option, so for anyone to argue we need more ... is cringe-worthy. It's always amazing to me how readily people will dismiss the idea that difficult choices and deficiencies are actually INTENDED.

@Nimon.7840 said:
@"Virdo.1540" said:i hope they wont give core necro more stab. Its ony if the only counters for necros

Except for long range and mobility being as effective as cc against a necro and also not being able to block or evade any attack with a weapon or utility skill.

Which makes it the class with the most weaknesses

Maybe ... but that's not a reason to change it either. Again, you don't think it's conceivable Anet intends for some classes to be harder to play than others by having these weaknesses? I absolutely think it is. I doubt most people understand this but ... it's what makes MMO PVP infinitely more interesting than FPS games.

This comment assumes that everything in game is intended which is not true and necro in general has more weakness than any other class so there is no reason to not let them breath a bit with good stab access.

Necro already has stab access, there is no reason to overload already popular builds with free stab on top of already picked skills/traits just because you want to faceroll on your keyboard a bit more.

What drarnor said is right, it is ridiculous to expect one class to be hard countered by every class, when meanwhile PU mes or whatever one-shot mirage blow up people while evading infinitely warrs leaping hard cc 1 shot or rifle 1 shots thieves stealth 1 shot with infinite disengages revs insane mobility combined with dmg and hard cc.

I'm not sure how's that an answer to what I wrote.

Either everyone needs to be nerfed down to our level for fair play, or we need some of our weaknesses covered because we have too much.

Yup, smashing stab everywhere isn't a solution to anything.

Necro needs help to deal with being cced to death and blown up. It needs its cc's either to be stronger to slow folks down to our level to give an equal playing field, or we need mobility and evades to deal with cc and hard bursts.

Toughness, for instance, won't save necromancers often, because we will be kited cced and blown up in 2-3 sec when focused because everyone has hard bursts plus mobility and sustain and hard cc. Necromancers are simply not built to deal with it, so it needs to be a bit stronger because its simply not fun. Sure there are masochists who enjoy the challenge and we all want a challenge, but this goes beyond that realm into the realm of simply so hard countered it literally takes the fun out of the game when no matter what you do, you are simply going to die when focused even 1 by player.

Cool, that's your opinion, I'm fine to "agree to disagree", because it's getting kind of boring.

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem,
they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards
are not good, and this needs fixed ASAP because this contributes to the death of this game.

Any solid examples of this happening?

A good example is when scourge got gutted. Because of the, nerfs necromancers were angry and up in arms over the nerfs hitting them too hard in pve. Reaper got hit and they protested because chill was hit really hard and it was as much a defensive as an offensive tool, there was also other stuff in the past but you can read it up and find the logs.

I know I've seen mes angry over some of the nerfs, and look at how they reacted to the massive changes to Chrono, which is why changes need to be done with a scalpel rather than a chainsaw, or you risk completely gutting a class.

Every class deserves their proper balancing, so if one class has tons of weaknesses, so should every other class, and necros I think atm have more counters than others and need some balancing to make them not so easy to kill and farm.

People get emotional when they truly care about a class and want to be able to enjoy it, and its not unreasonable to say you want a fair balance.

Zdragon mentioned it was aggressively overbalancing with nerfs, and it cannot hold compared to others in power creep, and its true.

Sobx.1758 · January 12, 2020

@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@XECOR.2814 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
@KrHome.1920 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Core has the most sustain of the necro specs. It has good ranged pressure and is very duarable. Its should not have equal amounts of anti cc defense like the elite specs.

No. The tankiest should have the least damage and that's the case with core. I don't buy that scourge has less damage then core, sorry. Also tanky usually also includes being resiliant to cc. Who saw a tank that goes face down to ground from slightest fart? That's squish dpser's trait that has to use mobility and careful positioning to avoid cc. Low damage but tanky specs should be the last guys to be ragdolls.

You already have easy access to stab, you choose to use something else and now you want to add a free stab on top of "your desired build". That makes no sense.

Much wisdom here ... the fact is that Anet does give us this option, so for anyone to argue we need more ... is cringe-worthy. It's always amazing to me how readily people will dismiss the idea that difficult choices and deficiencies are actually INTENDED.

@Nimon.7840 said:
@"Virdo.1540" said:i hope they wont give core necro more stab. Its ony if the only counters for necros

Except for long range and mobility being as effective as cc against a necro and also not being able to block or evade any attack with a weapon or utility skill.

Which makes it the class with the most weaknesses

Maybe ... but that's not a reason to change it either. Again, you don't think it's conceivable Anet intends for some classes to be harder to play than others by having these weaknesses? I absolutely think it is. I doubt most people understand this but ... it's what makes MMO PVP infinitely more interesting than FPS games.

This comment assumes that everything in game is intended which is not true and necro in general has more weakness than any other class so there is no reason to not let them breath a bit with good stab access.

Necro already has stab access, there is no reason to overload already popular builds with free stab on top of already picked skills/traits just because you want to faceroll on your keyboard a bit more.

What drarnor said is right, it is ridiculous to expect one class to be hard countered by every class, when meanwhile PU mes or whatever one-shot mirage blow up people while evading infinitely warrs leaping hard cc 1 shot or rifle 1 shots thieves stealth 1 shot with infinite disengages revs insane mobility combined with dmg and hard cc.

I'm not sure how's that an answer to what I wrote.

Either everyone needs to be nerfed down to our level for fair play, or we need some of our weaknesses covered because we have too much.

Yup, smashing stab everywhere isn't a solution to anything.

Necro needs help to deal with being cced to death and blown up. It needs its cc's either to be stronger to slow folks down to our level to give an equal playing field, or we need mobility and evades to deal with cc and hard bursts.

Toughness, for instance, won't save necromancers often, because we will be kited cced and blown up in 2-3 sec when focused because everyone has hard bursts plus mobility and sustain and hard cc. Necromancers are simply not built to deal with it, so it needs to be a bit stronger because its simply not fun. Sure there are masochists who enjoy the challenge and we all want a challenge, but this goes beyond that realm into the realm of simply so hard countered it literally takes the fun out of the game when no matter what you do, you are simply going to die when focused even 1 by player.

Cool, that's your opinion, I'm fine to "agree to disagree", because it's getting kind of boring.

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem,
they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards
are not good, and this needs fixed ASAP because this contributes to the death of this game.

Any solid examples of this happening?

A good example is when scourge got gutted. Because of the, nerfs necromancers were angry and up in arms over the nerfs hitting them too hard in pve. Reaper got hit and they protested because chill was hit really hard and it was as much a defensive as an offensive tool, there was also other stuff in the past but you can read it up and find the logs.

I know I've seen mes angry over some of the nerfs, and look at how they reacted to the massive changes to Chrono, which is why changes need to be done with a scalpel rather than a chainsaw, or you risk completely gutting a class.

Every class deserves their proper balancing, so if one class has tons of weaknesses, so should every other class, and necros I think atm have more counters than others and need some balancing to make them not so easy to kill and farm.

But that's not what your claim was. What you said was: "If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good".From my point of view, a valid example to prove these words would be "x class complaining and anet listening to them" (I suppose "by reverting the changes or granting compensating buffs", right?). What you said right now in no way matches what you've claimed before -in fact you provided a counterpoint to your own claim by bringing up gutted chronos. You might have your opinions about the state of the class, but when you lie about things like this, you just look like you're trying to play a victim.

Not the main of the thread, I know, not trying to derail, but I'm tired of seeing baseless claims like that. "if that happened to X class, they'd cry and anet would listen!" -no, for the most part they wouldn't.

Axl.8924 · January 12, 2020

@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@XECOR.2814 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sobx.1758 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:
@KrHome.1920 said:
@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Actually i must go bit easier on scourge. He does have kitten foot in the grave due to his shroud massive cooldown. Still core necro (who's supposed to be the tankiest of the bunch) should have better anti-cc options.The tankiest should have the least stability access.

Core has the most sustain of the necro specs. It has good ranged pressure and is very duarable. Its should not have equal amounts of anti cc defense like the elite specs.

No. The tankiest should have the least damage and that's the case with core. I don't buy that scourge has less damage then core, sorry. Also tanky usually also includes being resiliant to cc. Who saw a tank that goes face down to ground from slightest fart? That's squish dpser's trait that has to use mobility and careful positioning to avoid cc. Low damage but tanky specs should be the last guys to be ragdolls.

You already have easy access to stab, you choose to use something else and now you want to add a free stab on top of "your desired build". That makes no sense.

Much wisdom here ... the fact is that Anet does give us this option, so for anyone to argue we need more ... is cringe-worthy. It's always amazing to me how readily people will dismiss the idea that difficult choices and deficiencies are actually INTENDED.

@Nimon.7840 said:
@"Virdo.1540" said:i hope they wont give core necro more stab. Its ony if the only counters for necros

Except for long range and mobility being as effective as cc against a necro and also not being able to block or evade any attack with a weapon or utility skill.

Which makes it the class with the most weaknesses

Maybe ... but that's not a reason to change it either. Again, you don't think it's conceivable Anet intends for some classes to be harder to play than others by having these weaknesses? I absolutely think it is. I doubt most people understand this but ... it's what makes MMO PVP infinitely more interesting than FPS games.

This comment assumes that everything in game is intended which is not true and necro in general has more weakness than any other class so there is no reason to not let them breath a bit with good stab access.

Necro already has stab access, there is no reason to overload already popular builds with free stab on top of already picked skills/traits just because you want to faceroll on your keyboard a bit more.

What drarnor said is right, it is ridiculous to expect one class to be hard countered by every class, when meanwhile PU mes or whatever one-shot mirage blow up people while evading infinitely warrs leaping hard cc 1 shot or rifle 1 shots thieves stealth 1 shot with infinite disengages revs insane mobility combined with dmg and hard cc.

I'm not sure how's that an answer to what I wrote.

Either everyone needs to be nerfed down to our level for fair play, or we need some of our weaknesses covered because we have too much.

Yup, smashing stab everywhere isn't a solution to anything.

Necro needs help to deal with being cced to death and blown up. It needs its cc's either to be stronger to slow folks down to our level to give an equal playing field, or we need mobility and evades to deal with cc and hard bursts.

Toughness, for instance, won't save necromancers often, because we will be kited cced and blown up in 2-3 sec when focused because everyone has hard bursts plus mobility and sustain and hard cc. Necromancers are simply not built to deal with it, so it needs to be a bit stronger because its simply not fun. Sure there are masochists who enjoy the challenge and we all want a challenge, but this goes beyond that realm into the realm of simply so hard countered it literally takes the fun out of the game when no matter what you do, you are simply going to die when focused even 1 by player.

Cool, that's your opinion, I'm fine to "agree to disagree", because it's getting kind of boring.

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem,
they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards
are not good, and this needs fixed ASAP because this contributes to the death of this game.

Any solid examples of this happening?

A good example is when scourge got gutted. Because of the, nerfs necromancers were angry and up in arms over the nerfs hitting them too hard in pve. Reaper got hit and they protested because chill was hit really hard and it was as much a defensive as an offensive tool, there was also other stuff in the past but you can read it up and find the logs.

I know I've seen mes angry over some of the nerfs, and look at how they reacted to the massive changes to Chrono, which is why changes need to be done with a scalpel rather than a chainsaw, or you risk completely gutting a class.

Every class deserves their proper balancing, so if one class has tons of weaknesses, so should every other class, and necros I think atm have more counters than others and need some balancing to make them not so easy to kill and farm.

But that's not what your claim was. What you said was: "

If thief warr mesmers, or any other class had this problem, they would up in arms, and anet would listen, but because its necromancers its ok? double standards are not good

".From my point of view, a valid example to prove these words would be "x class complaining and anet listening to them" (I suppose "by reverting the changes or granting compensating buffs", right?). What you said right now in no way matches what you've claimed before -in fact you provided a counterpoint to your own claim by bringing up gutted chronos. You might have your opinions about the state of the class, but when you lie about things like this, you just look like you're trying to play a victim.

Not the main of the thread, I know, not trying to derail, but I'm tired of seeing baseless claims like that. "if that happened to X class, they'd cry and anet would listen!" -no, for the most part they wouldn't.

But mes have complained and complained and for years they ignored the nerf bullet and other classes have got strong sustain and dmg on others and get changes.

Necros are still living in 2014-2015 power wise, and you are arguing that necros shouldn't get buffed.

Also for rules sake i won't continue this conversation because i'l just be repeating myself.

We prohibit posts or comments that fall into the following general categories:Off-topic / Spamming / Trolling / Derailing / Non-Constructiveoff-topic (not related to GW2) or irrelevantexcessively repeatednonsense or valuelessnon-constructivederailing, aggressive, antagonistic, or harassingintended to cause forum unrest or forum member discomfortconspiracy theoriesquitting the gamethreats about or encouragement of the pursuit of legal actionall caps, excessive punctuation, “leetspeech,” etc.

I think i repeated myself enough.

trixantea.1230 · January 12, 2020

Reaper shroud 3 skill should be a stunbreak. The spell is good but it has an akward design flaw.

Sigmoid.7082 · January 12, 2020

@trixantea.1230 said:Reaper shroud 3 skill should be a stunbreak. The spell is good but it has an akward design flaw.

What is the flaw?

Adding a stun break would overload the skill.

Shroud.2307 · January 12, 2020

Here are a few tips and things to think about for those of you having trouble.

If you can help it, do not ever fight in an open field. If it's PvP, you want to be doing "jumping puzzles" as soon as someone +1's you. That means hopping to areas that cannot be teleported to and abusing terrain and LOS to the max. Similar idea for WvW.
You want people to come to you in most situations. Don't be the one chasing. Play around your AOE's and cleave, which Necro has a lot of, and create an area of pain.
You are not a Warrior. Don't trade hits or rely on dodging everything that does a lot of damage. Back to point 2, create an area of pain to force your opponent in to over committing or focusing more on their own damage avoidance.
Shroud is both a shield and a sponge. Use it to protect your health when you need to reposition to a more advantageous location, but always remain offensive and remember that some attacks are better to absorb than to dodge or counter. Because Shroud is also a powerful source of damage, you can simultaneously go offensive and defensive while in it.
Your best defense is your offense. If you build to be too tanky, you have nothing but health.
Everyone is weak to Corrupts.

Last point to consider; A Necromancer is as weak in an open field to a Thief, as a Thief is in a tight space to a Necromancer.Area denial is one of Necromancers greatest strengths. Yes, many things have immunity, block, etc., but knowing when to abuse this strength is what separates a good player from a bad one.

Necro does have some very significant weaknesses and is without a doubt, the easiest class to focus down. But knowing how to read a fight will save you from a lot more deaths than a little extra Stability.

Axl.8924 · January 13, 2020

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Here are a few tips and things to think about for those of you having trouble.
If you can help it, do not ever fight in an open field. If it's PvP, you want to be doing "jumping puzzles" as soon as someone +1's you. That means hopping to areas that cannot be teleported to and abusing terrain and LOS to the max. Similar idea for WvW.
You want people to come to you in most situations. Don't be the one chasing. Play around your AOE's and cleave, which Necro has a lot of, and create an area of pain.
You are not a Warrior. Don't trade hits or rely on dodging everything that does a lot of damage. Back to point 2, create an area of pain to force your opponent in to over committing or focusing more on their own damage avoidance.
Shroud is both a shield and a sponge. Use it to protect your health when you need to reposition to a more advantageous location, but always remain offensive and remember that some attacks are better to absorb than to dodge or counter. Because Shroud is also a powerful source of damage, you can simultaneously go offensive and defensive while in it.
Your best defense is your offense. If you build to be too tanky, you have nothing but health.
Everyone is weak to Corrupts.
Last point to consider; A Necromancer is as weak in an open field to a Thief, as a Thief is in a tight space to a Necromancer.Area denial is one of Necromancers greatest strengths. Yes, many things have immunity, block, etc., but knowing when to abuse this strength is what separates a good player from a bad one.
Necro does have some very significant weaknesses and is without a doubt, the easiest class to focus down. But knowing how to read a fight will save you from a lot more deaths than a little extra Stability.

it also seems like a good rule of thumb is also possibly use that wurm as a port to get an advantage for offensive reasons too not just to outwit saw Holtz use it there.

All, of course, valid points advice in avoiding capture rule of thumb in attempting never to engage alone as well since necros generally work better in groups.

Still, the penalty for positioning is far greater for necro and we get punished severely for encountering classes that have mobility dmg and cc combined, of course knowing how to aim those AOES on reaper is also part of learning.

I think a slight improvement is in order to make the class when alone more enjoyable and not just get instantly blown up. Even a top-level player like Holtz barely has any possibility to win vs sindrener in a fight and both are highly skilled, but mobility is both an offensive and defensive tool. The enjoyment goes down highly when camped by thieves because they catch up to you and blow you up with their mobility and cc.

Obtena.7952 · January 13, 2020

Frankly, any argument any of you are going to make on the basis of 'every other class doesn't have deficiencies in PVP' is a non-starter, whether that's true or not. Even if that were true, it would STILL not be relevant as you don't know the intentions of the devs for the classes and what they offer players in terms of gameplay. No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does. Maybe you think you have an overwhelming case because of your claims of what every other class does ... those are just baseless claims. If other classes didn't have deficiencies in PVP the PVP scene would be VERY different.

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Necro does have some very significant weaknesses and is without a doubt, the easiest class to focus down. But knowing how to read a fight will save you from a lot more deaths than a little extra Stability.

Absolutely. Truth is that even the deficiencies that are being described are not what hold people back from being successful with the class. The bottomline is that PVPing on Necro is harder and no argument can prove that's a problem that needs to be fixed by flooding it with any half-cocked player idea. If you struggle and your desire is just to win, you got choices.

KrHome.1920 · January 13, 2020

Well today against that certain EU wannabe pro fighting server that exploits every balance issue in the game in smallscale and all that cheese they bring to the table, toughness made a huge difference for me. My k/d ratio was tied to my amount of tougness. And toughness makes an even bigger difference against less overpowered encounters (other servers that don't tryhard all day).

I don't get these thougness is useless statements. They are not true. And they are esp. not true in pvp where the damage is lower.

The real issue for necro is, that a lot of valueable attribute combinations don't exist in all game modes, which limits the class a lot.

E.g. if paladin stats existed in wvw I could merge 3 of my roaming builds for different encounters into 1 viable build to deal with everything. Other classes just pick marauder and do fine.

Levijeh.9643 · January 13, 2020

To be honest, I don't feel like we need more access to stability, well managed Foot in the Grave and Spectral Walk (also Wurm) should suffice your stunbreak requirements. However, an additional stack of stab wouldn't hurt. I do feel like core necro needs a more reliable Shroud skills 1 and 4, if this happens then Dhuumfire would have potential. Also, I would like them to tweak dagger off-hand and focus to increase weapon choices on core necro.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180 · January 13, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:Frankly, any argument any of you are going to make on the basis of 'every other class doesn't have deficiencies in PVP' is a non-starter, whether that's true or not. Even if that were true, it would STILL not be relevant as you don't know the intentions of the devs for the classes and what they offer players in terms of gameplay. No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does. Maybe you think you have an overwhelming case because of your claims of what every other class does ... those are just baseless claims. If other classes didn't have deficiencies in PVP the PVP scene would be VERY different.
@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Necro does have some very significant weaknesses and is without a doubt, the easiest class to focus down. But knowing how to read a fight will save you from a lot more deaths than a little extra Stability.

Absolutely. Truth is that even the deficiencies that are being described are not what hold people back from being successful with the class. The bottomline is that PVPing on Necro is harder and no argument can prove that's a problem that needs to be fixed by flooding it with any half-cocked player idea. If you struggle and your desire is just to win, you got choices.

Let's have a hypothetical, then. I am designing a brand new game. In it, a player of one class will start with 600 hit points at level one. Is this balanced? I want your answer before continuing with my point.

Sigmoid.7082 · January 13, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does.

This isn't true man, classes get buffs and nerfs relative to each other all the time. e.g in PvE chrono got nerfed due to being an almost provide everything support and crowding out everything else. Rev got buffed and given alacrity to so chrono wasn't the only thing that could provide it. Literally the reason Chrono players are super sad and why the FB+Rev combo is a thing.

Akrasia.5469 · January 13, 2020

@"Sobx.1758" said:
Go play different classes then o/

This is the kind of snobbish remark that hurts a game's community. There are a lot of Necro mains. We like the way necro feels to play and enjoy that style of gameplay the most. I've played other classes in PvP and PvE and keep coming back to necro. It saddens me that my favorite class isn't competitive for mainly a few balance issues. Even when necro had a couple of meta builds it wasn't unstoppable unlike some of the other classes. ALSO, every time necro has had a meta build it's been nerfed by the next patch. There are classes that have never dropped out of meta. Lastly, the complaints you're talking about here are not new. We have been complaining about mobility for years. Surviving hard CC for years. The Devs pretty much give those ideas the middle finger and boost necro damage each time.. resulting in an "OP" (not really) build for a short time then a hard nerf. It's been the same pattern since the start. If it's about playing a different class then GW2 might as well just drop necro, and the players who love the class, so it's not an issue.

Axl.8924 · January 13, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:Frankly, any argument any of you are going to make on the basis of 'every other class doesn't have deficiencies in PVP' is a non-starter, whether that's true or not. Even if that were true, it would STILL not be relevant as you don't know the intentions of the devs for the classes and what they offer players in terms of gameplay. No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does. Maybe you think you have an overwhelming case because of your claims of what every other class does ... those are just baseless claims. If other classes didn't have deficiencies in PVP the PVP scene would be VERY different.
@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Necro does have some very significant weaknesses and is without a doubt, the easiest class to focus down. But knowing how to read a fight will save you from a lot more deaths than a little extra Stability.

Absolutely. Truth is that even the deficiencies that are being described are not what hold people back from being successful with the class. The bottom line is that PVPing on Necro is harder and no argument can prove that's a problem that needs to be fixed by flooding it with any half-cocked player idea. If you struggle and your desire is just to win, you got choices.

But these deficiencies are holding back necro, I get the feeling you sobx and some others want necro to stay at the bottom because you hate necromancers.

Take a look at the video where the best necro Holtz was being repeatedly killed by sindrener because of the mobility of thief and even herald has a combo of hard cc mobility and dmg.

Mobility is and will be necros kryptonite, and with the nerfs in the past this left necromancers in a precarious situation.

It was one thing in 2017 when hot was out, as classes were more bearable then because certain things were un nerfed for the necro, but with pof power creep, necro can't keep up. Its all well and good to say L2P, but there is a limit. If the best necro has an impossible time beating a thief, then it's not L2P its a clear design flaw in which the game hard counters necromancers too hard.

The game is meant to be fun, and whether it's competitive or not if something isn't fun, they go elsewhere like wow.

The only reason I stayed around is f2p and enjoying tinkering with class mechanics.

Shroud.2307 · January 13, 2020

@Axl.8924 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:Frankly, any argument any of you are going to make on the basis of 'every other class doesn't have deficiencies in PVP' is a non-starter, whether that's true or not. Even if that were true, it would STILL not be relevant as you don't know the intentions of the devs for the classes and what they offer players in terms of gameplay. No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does. Maybe you think you have an overwhelming case because of your claims of what every other class does ... those are just baseless claims. If other classes didn't have deficiencies in PVP the PVP scene would be VERY different.
@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Necro does have some very significant weaknesses and is without a doubt, the easiest class to focus down. But knowing how to read a fight will save you from a lot more deaths than a little extra Stability.

Absolutely. Truth is that even the deficiencies that are being described are not what hold people back from being successful with the class. The bottom line is that PVPing on Necro is harder and no argument can prove that's a problem that needs to be fixed by flooding it with any half-cocked player idea. If you struggle and your desire is just to win, you got choices.

But these deficiencies are holding back necro, I get the feeling you sobx and some others want necro to stay at the bottom because you hate necromancers.

Take a look at the video where the best necro Holtz was being repeatedly killed by sindrener because of the mobility of thief and even herald has a combo of hard cc mobility and dmg.

Mobility is and will be necros kryptonite, and with the nerfs in the past this left necromancers in a precarious situation.

It was one thing in 2017 when hot was out, as classes were more bearable then because certain things were un nerfed for the necro, but with pof power creep, necro can't keep up. Its all well and good to say L2P, but there is a limit. If the best necro has an impossible time beating a thief, then it's not L2P its a clear design flaw in which the game hard counters necromancers too hard.

The game is meant to be fun, and whether it's competitive or not if something isn't fun, they go elsewhere like wow.

The only reason I stayed around is f2p and enjoying tinkering with class mechanics.

I don't hate Necro. I hate faceroll. Necro is a punishing class that is equally punishing to the mistakes of it's opponents. It is a low skill floor high skill ceiling class that many play for it's ease of use and group utility in WvW/PvP, but never commit to truly getting better with it because they feel it is inherently weak and will not reward them for doing so.

It is true that it has some unfair limitations placed on it but that doesn't make it weak nor bad. Like all classes, it could use some adjustments here or there, and yes, it has plenty of skills, traits and utilities that aren't very useful. Wanting to see those things improved and giving suggestions is all fine and good, but "because X class has it" is not a valid way to support those opinions. Every class has strengths and weaknesses and blocks or mobility do not make them god mode, neither does not having any of those make Necro incapable of defeating such things.

This entire thread sounds like a giant victim rant about how Necro is weak, everything else is OP and ANet hates Necro. It's the same thing in 90% of other threads in other profession sub forums. The Necro sub is usually better than this...

As I'd said previously, I think it would be fine to give FitG a small buff or add a tiny bit of Stability elsewhere, but in general it doesn't feel necessary. In my own experience, I have no need for Stability in the vast majority of encounters and I often play alone or in small groups in WvW on a glass core Necro. 1 v 1 can be a different story depending on the fight, but balance is not centered on how a class performs in a duel.

I don't doubt that some of the people here are decent Necro's and have a good understanding of their wishes. But for balance as a whole, knowledge seems questionable at best.

EDIT: Side note regarding Sindrener and Holts.Holts is not the best Necro, but no question one of the better ones. Sindrener is likely the best player in the game. In the video, Holts punishes Sindrener for committing on him more than once. It only takes one mistake for either of them to be down for the count. Thief has more control over the fight, but that doesn't mean it's unwinnable. Regardless, Thief has the advantage here and it was between two players where the class with the greater advantage, Thief, was being played by someone significantly better than the Necro. I don't say this to insult Holts in any way what so ever, but I'd say he's more like top 5 Necro's, not #1, and I imagine he'd agree.

Axl.8924 · January 13, 2020

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:
@Axl.8924 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:Frankly, any argument any of you are going to make on the basis of 'every other class doesn't have deficiencies in PVP' is a non-starter, whether that's true or not. Even if that were true, it would STILL not be relevant as you don't know the intentions of the devs for the classes and what they offer players in terms of gameplay. No class in the history of the game has ever been buffed because of what some other class does. Maybe you think you have an overwhelming case because of your claims of what every other class does ... those are just baseless claims. If other classes didn't have deficiencies in PVP the PVP scene would be VERY different.
@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:Necro does have some very significant weaknesses and is without a doubt, the easiest class to focus down. But knowing how to read a fight will save you from a lot more deaths than a little extra Stability.