Buff core necro stability access

[Sigmoid.7082]

The more the game gets toned down the less this idea holds any merit, if any at all.

[Axl.8924]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:Yes.

Because they have no other choice in order to survive

Because of stab deficiency, core necros are often forced to build escape utilities, killing build diversity.You're annoyed with necro getting away? I as core necro am annoyed with having to getaway. I would much rather stay and fight, but since I'm denied reasonable amounts of stab or other escape mechanics I know that would not be a fight, just once sided cc+ damage beatdown.

Then you're not reading fight properly. It's impossible to always make the right decisions or to constantly be aware of everything happening around you, so sometimes mistakes will be made, no one's doubting that. But you have to understand the weaknesses of your class and the impact you can have with its strengths and you have to employ those strengths to compensate for your lack of defenses with proper awareness.

Situate yourself properly by abusing difficult terrain, blind spots, players with support builds, etc. and surround yourself with outside defenses. Sometimes a commitment to your position will be made by the enemy in which case you may not be able to escape but if you've claimed proper ground, you can either force a retreat or an over committal on your position causing the enemy to lose people in the process.

1 v 1's or being caught in the open are irrelevant. Some classes/builds are capable of handling them, others are not. If we're talking PvP, Necro has it's role as does everything else. Some times things fall from the meta, but the meta changes. Necro has been an important part of team fights in both WvW and PvP for a very long time because it has a greater potential to turn the favor of a fight than anything else.

I'm going to share an old video of mine as it has some relevance to the discussion here. For the most part, I'm not being focused, so it isn't a perfect reference. But if you notice how quickly I retreat when I feel the flow of a fight turning my direction, how I'm always prepared with an escape plan, or how I can tell exactly where it's safe to push in even when I'm right in the thick of a fight, you'll see how much of a difference awareness can make.

• Note: I have 2.4k armor in this video. I'm not a full glass, but nearly. I have no support, I still push deep in the group or ride their tail very close, and I probably create more downed than anyone else.

I-m asking for a minuscule buff to stab slight improvement may be to our consume conditions by making it10 sec and lowering spectral walk cd a little.

Reaper doesn't need more stab it has more than core, but the core is the one who really needs it. Also, take into mind I'm talking about SPVP solo queue, not WVW or PVE.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:The more the game gets toned down the less this idea holds any merit if any at all.

Hence why I said many classes need to be toned down

Escapes, damage evades CC might boon spam. But don't hold your breath, they may change nothing or the wrong thing on multiple classes and leave the ones already-dominant still dominant.

[KrHome.1920]

@Curennos.9307 said:To reiterate. I don't mind getting pummeled. I don't mind that a warr is going to 100% CC me at some point and nail their arcing slice/100B. I do mind not actually being able to do anything - this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.You need that one necro setup to deal with that one warrior setup. I don't see the issue here.

What you are asking for is having multiple options against one single warrior build. Why is one option not enough? Most classes don't have multiple options against a core necro. They have to bring heavy CC or their damage gets absorbed and nullified by an extremely high health/life force pool with perma weakness and condi transfers.

On core necro you can stay at range for a very long time because you run staff and scepter. And even a part of your shroud is ranged or at least 600 range aoe. This is how you play that spec. Stay in the backline and kite as long as possible supported by your movement impairing conditions and utility skills. When you want to be in the middle of the action, then play reaper. The latter is designed for melee combat.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:The more the game gets toned down the less this idea holds any merit if any at all.

Hence why I said many classes need to be toned down

Escapes, damage evades CC might boon spam. But don't hold your breath, they may change nothing or the wrong thing on multiple classes and leave the ones already-dominant still dominant.

Then how about waiting until that happens before asking for power creep to this class?

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:The more the game gets toned down the less this idea holds any merit if any at all.

Hence why I said many classes need to be toned down

Escapes, damage evades CC might boon spam. But don't hold your breath, they may change nothing or the wrong thing on multiple classes and leave the ones already-dominant still dominant.

Then how about waiting until that happens before asking for power creep to this class?

Been waiting oh i don't know...4 years now? I've waited enough i say...

[Curennos.9307]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:To reiterate. I don't mind getting pummeled. I don't mind that a warr is going to 100% CC me at some point and nail their arcing slice/100B. I do mind not actually being able to do anything - this is why wurm and spectral walk have bulldozed their way into being p much required utility picks. Because they're a stunbreak AND get you out of the chain. Just a stunbreak, with no evade/etc attached, just means the necro can hobble a bit in any direction while...the follow up skill still probably lands.You need that one necro setup to deal with that one warrior setup. I don't see the issue here.

What you are asking for is having multiple options against one single warrior build. Why is one option not enough? Most classes don't have multiple options against a core necro. They have to bring heavy CC or their damage gets absorbed and nullified by an extremely high health/life force pool with perma weakness and condi transfers.

On core necro you can stay at range for a very long time because you run staff and scepter. And even a part of your shroud is ranged or at least 600 range aoe. This is how you play that spec. Stay in the backline and kite as long as possible supported by your movement impairing conditions and utility skills. When you want to be in the middle of the action, then play reaper. The latter is designed for melee combat.

Warr was an example. I pick on warr because I've played the class more than holo, rev, etc.

[Sobx.1758]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:The more the game gets toned down the less this idea holds any merit if any at all.

Hence why I said many classes need to be toned down

Escapes, damage evades CC might boon spam. But don't hold your breath, they may change nothing or the wrong thing on multiple classes and leave the ones already-dominant still dominant.

Then how about waiting until that happens before asking for power creep to this class?

Been waiting oh i don't know...4 years now? I've waited enough i say...

Been waiting for oh so long, but now that we know those particular changes are comming in less than 2 months, it's especially important to press for unneeded buffs for the class before we know what exact number changes the rebalance will bring. Now that you've put it this way, it makes perfect sense! :sleeping:

[Anchoku.8142]

I said this before in this thread but the only substantial reason to add another regularly available stability source is to add true tank functionality to Necro through Death Magic (and make it shareable.)

I would not expect to get it without trading significant dps, which comes with taking DM. Performing a tank role to control opponent positioning ought to nerf outgoing dps to help sustain group dps and something like this would only be useful in end-game group PvE. Taking it in PvP or WvW should be disadvantageous.

I am inclined to side with those who see no need for another stab in every other situation. Necro and its elites have many real and pressing QoL issues but another stab for PvP and WvW use is not one on my list.

[wasss.1208]

Reading through this topic is quite an adventure.I've played a few games on core necro in the last season on ranked, and dueled some low plat/high gold guildies with it. (For reference, the build I used: https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/necromancer 2020.01.17)The duels were mostly agains fire weavers, and boy-oh-boy, they are free food. And honestly, everything is, who puts stability on themselves. The things you have to consider: Firstly, you have to use the terrain to your advantage. Of course you get chain CCd if you stay on the point and don't even try to peel with JPs. Secondly, you have 50k hp.During the ranked matches I only died to hard pressure, mostly thieves and revenants. Warriors chain CCs usually ran out, before my health. And lastly: you have a metric ton of fears, use them. Even better against people who has any stability on them, your corrupt boon becomes an another fear source.In my opinion: Necro was always a slow moving, slow casting juggernaut, and currently, it perfectly fits it. While playing it, I never felt like I am just prey, unless I wasted all my dodges, and both of my stunbreaks. That usually only happened in outnumbered fights, or if the enemy outskilled me. If you have problems with CCs, put more stunbreaks on your utility bar.

[Obtena.7952]

If the whole problem stems from a proliferation of CC in competitive game modes, the answer here has nothing to do with giving necros more stability. If PVP is THAT broken because of all the CC's that everyone is proclaiming exists being THE reasons they always lose, then advocating that fix at the class level is just PROMOTING the very same problem at the completely other end of the scale.

[Axl.8924]

Even so, some things won't be changed, they could at least make consume conditions comparable to other heals.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

it really has been left behind, like many core specs. it doesn't need much imo.

[Axl.8924]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:it really has been left behind, like many core specs. it doesn't need much IMO.

Better than doing nothing and saying the equivalent of Necromancer problems aren't real they don't exist, the weaknesses which make it ping-ponged aren't real its all learn 2 play.

Listen, if you are kinda forced to use elites to compensate, its a sign that core isn't exactly good, and there are multiple classes who use core and are decent to good, so it isn't true proof: thief class uses core, I've also seen mes go core and guardian and warr were also known for using core.

If you literally need reaper and scourge, then the core is messed up.

I did hear that engi isn't so great but I don't know much about engi.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

As a veteran WvW necromancer ?‍♂️ of 6 years cough cough, I shall weigh in on this topic with the utmost fairness.

I can’t speak for other modes, but from a WvW solo roaming perspective, where many encounters are in open field (unless you camp areas with kiteable objects in which case the free spirit of roaming is gone), Necromancers in general do have many uphill fights, especially for impromptu encounters.

One reason being unlike other classes, we do not have a ‘1 build to rule them all’.

Necromancers often need to tweak and customise their builds for every individual encounter to fight on par with or minimise the disadvantages of open field encounters.

Are we weak? No.We have the tools to fight evenly with most opponents.

The need to tweak however, tends to translate to a loss or an uphill fight in the first encounter because most other classes have a ‘1 build to rule them all’ mode.With a single build, they have stacked tools that allows them to start most fights on par or with advantages over their opponents.

IMO, the current spec available to Necros closest to a ‘1 build to rule them all’ mode, is the Core Necromancer.

It can build for spite curses BM which is able to handle itself decently against range kiting foes, condi foes, and boon spam foes.

This build however is susceptible to foes with Long range pressure and ranged hard CC like Soulbeasts, Dragonhunters and Deadeyes.

A simple swap of BM to SR for access to FITG would solve much of this problem and reduce the advantages that those foes would have over us in open field fights.

However, again this involves tweaking and shows the reduced effectiveness of our ‘1 build to rule them all’ mode compared to other classes.

Does Core Necro need more stability options from a WvW solo roaming perspective?

I would say Yes if we’re going to bring our ‘1 build to rule them all’ mode on par with what the other classes have.

This would make our roaming experience a lot more enjoyable. Impromptu Fights would become closer like 50-50 or 60-40. Fights would become more based on skill rather than whether I brought the correct tools to the fight as a necromancer.

P.S. other classes like Soulbeasts don’t have this headache. They have single build that gives them access to every boon imaginable, stabs, protection, resistance you name it they got it. They have mobility, stealth, range pressure, evades, blocks, melee pressure, condi clears, sustain, hard CCs, soft CCs. Their single build gives them all the tools they need to face the large variety of opponents and builds in WvW.

So I would say Yes, give core Necromancers More stability options.

[Sobx.1758]

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:As a veteran WvW necromancer ?‍♂️ of 6 years cough cough, I shall weigh in on this topic with the utmost fairness.(...)Are we weak? No.We have the tools to fight evenly with most opponents.

6 years of *cough* *cough* wvw and yet you've changed your tune within 5 days from the melodramatic "we're the worst, they won't understand us" to "we're not weak, but we need to make choices".https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1134684#Comment_1134684

Somehow that sudden change of mind from a "veteran wvw player" is more interesting to me than the rest of this whole "buff my build" thread. :D

I also disagree about the "one build to rule them all" statement about other classes -generally that's just not true, but how could you know that if all you play is one class. At the same time you also seem to confirm what I was saying before: all you want is to make no choices, have no trade-offs in picking certain traits/skills over the others and just pack everything into your one "go-to" build. That should not be the case and it completely erases the purpose of having more traits/skills than slots to use them.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:As a veteran WvW necromancer ?‍

♂️

of 6 years

cough

cough

, I shall weigh in on this topic with the utmost fairness.(...)Are we weak? No.We have the tools to fight evenly with most opponents.

6 years of *cough* *cough* wvw and yet you've changed your tune within 5 days from the melodramatic "we're the worst, they won't understand us" to "we're not weak, but we need to make choices".

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1134684#Comment_1134684

Somehow that sudden change of mind from a "veteran wvw player" is more interesting to me than the rest of this whole "buff my build" thread. :D

I also disagree about the "one build to rule them all" statement about other classes -generally that's just not true, but how could you know that if all you play is one class. At the same time you also seem to confirm what I was saying before: all you want is to make no choices, have no trade-offs in picking certain traits/skills over the others and just pack everything into your one "go-to" build. That should not be the case and it completely erases the purpose of having more traits/skills than slots to use them.

I present you proof of the existence of the ‘1 build to rule them all’.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/95603/soulbeast-perma-boon-dps-roaming

[Sobx.1758]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:As a veteran WvW necromancer ?‍

♂️

of 6 years

cough

cough

, I shall weigh in on this topic with the utmost fairness.(...)Are we weak? No.We have the tools to fight evenly with most opponents.

6 years of *cough* *cough* wvw and yet you've changed your tune within 5 days from the melodramatic "we're the worst, they won't understand us" to "we're not weak, but we need to make choices".

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1134684#Comment_1134684

Somehow that sudden change of mind from a "veteran wvw player" is more interesting to me than the rest of this whole "buff my build" thread. :D

I also disagree about the "one build to rule them all" statement about other classes -generally that's just not true, but how could you know that if all you play is one class. At the same time you also seem to confirm what I was saying before: all you want is to make no choices, have no trade-offs in picking certain traits/skills over the others and just pack everything into your one "go-to" build. That should not be the case and it completely erases the purpose of having more traits/skills than slots to use them.

I present you proof of the existence of the ‘1 build to rule them all’.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/95603/soulbeast-perma-boon-dps-roaming

I present to you what I wrote:

I also disagree about the "one build to rule them all" statement about other classes -generally that's just not true

tbh I won't be even looking into that thread, but if you believe there's one OP build that consistently "does it all", that's not a reason to complain about other classes not having it -if anything it's a reason to complain about that one build existing. In other words, I think you're trying to push "the norm" in the wrong direction and the fact that anet claims they're scaling back the dmg/heal/"do-it-all skills" shows that potentially they think so as well. How true that will be, I don't know, but we'll see around march.

I'm still curious what made you change your stance about necro within 5 days despite "being a 6 year wvw veteran" btw.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

if people think that nerfing all cc in the game is a solution rather then give necro some more stab then maybe they need a wake up call.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:if people think that nerfing all cc in the game is a solution rather then give necro some more stab then maybe they need a wake up call.

Why?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:if people think that nerfing all cc in the game is a solution rather then give necro some more stab then maybe they need a wake up call.

Why?

which do you think is more likely to happen?

[Sobx.1758]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:if people think that nerfing all cc in the game is a solution rather then give necro some more stab then maybe they need a wake up call.

Why?

which do you think is more likely to happen?

Neither? :D

[Ghos.1326]

@Obtena.7952 said:If the whole problem stems from a proliferation of CC in competitive game modes, the answer here has nothing to do with giving necros more stability. If PVP is THAT broken because of all the CC's that everyone is proclaiming exists being THE reasons they always lose, then advocating that fix at the class level is just PROMOTING the very same problem at the completely other end of the scale.

I agree. Battling powercreep with more powercreep and more things only further digs the hole deeper into powercreep.

[Anchoku.8142]

Reading these posts suggests;

1. Necromancer is not so unbalanced that all posts are one-sidedly in favor of a buff or a nerf with respect to stability. That should imply any change is not a priority.
2. Necromancer's weaknesses are still being kited (scepter is a partial counter depending on range but no other options have enough pressure) and being hit while under control effects.
3. Necromancer's strengths are still boon corrupts like Corrupt Boon and surviving unintended shroud/face tanking, which is core to the profession design theme.

These attributes are fine, IMO. They give Necromancer a design flavor and I am fine with the thematic choice, though I wish scepter was not the only ranged option.

I recommend more stability as a way to expand the number of functional roles Necromance can fill but think it should not be used to lower the skill level of PvP and WvW.

Rather, other professions should have their potency adjusted if there are so-called "one-ring" builds with no inherent weaknesses.

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Reading these posts suggests;

1. Necromancer is not so unbalanced that all posts are one-sidedly in favor of a buff or a nerf with respect to stability. That should imply any change is not a priority.
2. Necromancer's weaknesses are still being kited (scepter is a partial counter depending on range but no other options have enough pressure) and being hit while under control effects.
3. Necromancer's strengths are still boon corrupts like Corrupt Boon and surviving unintended shroud/face tanking, which is core to the profession design theme.

These attributes are fine, IMO. They give Necromancer a design flavor and I am fine with the thematic choice, though I wish scepter was not the only ranged option.

I recommend more stability as a way to expand the number of functional roles Necromance can fill but think it should not be used to lower the skill level of PvP and WvW.

Rather, other professions should have their potency adjusted if there are so-called "one-ring" builds with no inherent weaknesses.

Just to clarify, it isn’t that one ring builds have no weaknesses.It is just that the weaknesses are not critical enough to skew encounters beyond 50-50 or 60-40.Their weaknesses are not so bad that the build used greatly determined the outcome of the fight.From a WvW solo roaming perspective, Necros do not have these one ring builds ?

We used to have it during the chill bleed reaper prime era with 7 seconds shroud but it’s now gone.Many other pof specs now have access to these one ring build and Scourge is left in the dust.

PS if someone knows of a one-ring necro build though that allows us to face any opponent class / build in WvW open field impromptu encounter with 50-50 or 60-40 chances, please share ?

[Obtena.7952]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:if people think that nerfing all cc in the game is a solution rather then give necro some more stab then maybe they need a wake up call.

Why?

which do you think is more likely to happen?

Well, someone would have to show the core necro theme is deficient in stability in PVP BY MISTAKE and that even if they can show this ... still need to demonstrate that this mistake needs to be fixed.

Considering it's likely intended (because you know, 8 years of the game being that way pretty much confirms that) and it's already fixed with players having choice ... as low as the possibility is, my money is on global CC changes.