How To Beat Rangers - A Secret l2p Guide

[MyPuppy.8970]

Are there LOS spots where pets can't follow ? I'd really like to know those. You'd still be hit with barrage though, i suppose..

[ZDragon.3046]

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Tycura.1982"

Eeeeh I dunno man. Rangers can do it, Deadeyes do same thing, FA Ele/Temp/Weaver does same thing, PP Thieves do same thing.

Deadeyes die if you managed to get in on them and out play their stealth or prevent them from entering stealth LoS works on them and they cant easily re position without using utility and there is no pet to harrass you out of the LoS hiding spot or a skill like long bow 5 that can slightly hit behind most LoS spots.

FA Ele dies immediately the moment you catch it and its escapes are very finite with a high enough cd that they cant run forever should you make the right play. LoS works on them too because of this.

PP Thief again dies immediately the moment you catch.

The moment ranger gets caught in melee range they can pop signet of stone or block then use smoke scale for stealth access etc or smoke assault for evades. Should any CC land they have at least 2 break stuns which will instantly get them out of a tight spot with lightning reflexes or protect me. Then you have the issue of the pet conventently ccing players with non command cc attacks (which happens far too often) Between all these things ranger by far at a mechanical advantage in terms of survivability even once some one gets in close on them and they have good melee pressure almost as good as warriors with the use of GS.

The other examples you named often dont also have good melee counter pressure especially not ele and thief

Players in GW2 just hate pew pew, end of story. Doesn't matter if it's OP or UP. People hate ranged attack mechanics in this game that go any further than about 600 range.

Its not a matter of hating pew pew its a matter of the fact that once some one gets in on a range class they expect it not to be a warrior lol.There is not other ranged profession in this game that has = strong melee pressure and melee defense in the same build as ranger thats why people dislike it. You add soul beast options like plasma usage for a super wide boon table or pets that can cc without command for 5k yes 5k without a critical hit btw and that makes it very hated.

So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions.

If socurge players had of said you just need to L2P when shades instantly roasted players with no tell no one would have agreed with that statement.So telling people to just LoS is similar to saying just dont stand on a shade back then when you had 2-3 scourge man teams and it was nearly impossible to avoid shades with almost no indicators for where they were going to pop up.

There is a difference in being skilled and just using a profession that is mechanically superior to others.Just because it can lose to a few niche things does not make it balanced. Thats more or less what people are trying to tell you.

Well the best or one of the best necros in pvp managed to kill sindrener 3 times in a match, so anything's possible.(refering to holtz)

Of course its possible for necro to win any match up just like its possible for warrior or ranger or any other profession but just because that does not make something balanced lol. I am a firm believer of the ideal that "anything is 'technically' possible" There could be a wide number of reasons why the profession with the advantage wins or the one with the disadvantage wins (how ever you want to put that). Sadly if you balance for the best only anyone below the best will see the game as being badly balanced if you balance for new players anyone with a decent number of hours will see it as badly balanced. ITs gotta be on the middle/high ground but not the top percentile. The majority of the games players are not top percentiles lol. Sadly being top player on x profession does not mean the be all end all of how something should / should not be balanced.

[bravan.3876]

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Are there LOS spots where pets can't follow ? I'd really like to know those. You'd still be hit with barrage though, i suppose..

On coliseum are some, it is in general one of the worst maps for Ranger i would say. Skyhammer has on midpoint... these are the first coming to mind at least. They are also the ones fast and easy enough to reach that you are not already dead by pew pew before reaching them. On legacy are one on each side point where you can have shorter pathing than the pet but they are not that fast to reach and will only buy a little bit of time before the pet reachs you. Forest has some better ones on one side point and on mid point. The other side point (with the stairs) is equally to legacy.

[Axl.8924]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Tycura.1982"

Eeeeh I dunno man. Rangers can do it, Deadeyes do same thing, FA Ele/Temp/Weaver does same thing, PP Thieves do same thing.

Deadeyes die if you managed to get in on them and out play their stealth or prevent them from entering stealth LoS works on them and they cant easily re position without using utility and there is no pet to harrass you out of the LoS hiding spot or a skill like long bow 5 that can slightly hit behind most LoS spots.

FA Ele dies immediately the moment you catch it and its escapes are very finite with a high enough cd that they cant run forever should you make the right play. LoS works on them too because of this.

PP Thief again dies immediately the moment you catch.

The moment ranger gets caught in melee range they can pop signet of stone or block then use smoke scale for stealth access etc or smoke assault for evades. Should any CC land they have at least 2 break stuns which will instantly get them out of a tight spot with lightning reflexes or protect me. Then you have the issue of the pet conventently ccing players with non command cc attacks (which happens far too often) Between all these things ranger by far at a mechanical advantage in terms of survivability even once some one gets in close on them and they have good melee pressure almost as good as warriors with the use of GS.

The other examples you named often dont also have good melee counter pressure especially not ele and thief

Players in GW2 just hate pew pew, end of story. Doesn't matter if it's OP or UP. People hate ranged attack mechanics in this game that go any further than about 600 range.

Its not a matter of hating pew pew its a matter of the fact that once some one gets in on a range class they expect it not to be a warrior lol.There is not other ranged profession in this game that has = strong melee pressure and melee defense in the same build as ranger thats why people dislike it. You add soul beast options like plasma usage for a super wide boon table or pets that can cc without command for 5k yes 5k without a critical hit btw and that makes it very hated.

So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions.

If socurge players had of said you just need to L2P when shades instantly roasted players with no tell no one would have agreed with that statement.So telling people to just LoS is similar to saying just dont stand on a shade back then when you had 2-3 scourge man teams and it was nearly impossible to avoid shades with almost no indicators for where they were going to pop up.

There is a difference in being skilled and just using a profession that is mechanically superior to others.Just because it can lose to a few niche things does not make it balanced. Thats more or less what people are trying to tell you.

Well the best or one of the best necros in pvp managed to kill sindrener 3 times in a match, so anything's possible.(refering to holtz)

Of course its possible for necro to win any match up just like its possible for warrior or ranger or any other profession but just because that does not make something balanced lol. I am a firm believer of the ideal that "anything is 'technically' possible" There could be a wide number of reasons why the profession with the advantage wins or the one with the disadvantage wins (how ever you want to put that). Sadly if you balance for the best only anyone below the best will see the game as being badly balanced if you balance for new players anyone with a decent number of hours will see it as badly balanced. ITs gotta be on the middle/high ground but not the top percentile. The majority of the games players are not top percentiles lol. Sadly being top player on x profession does not mean the be all end all of how something should / should not be balanced.

True i was pointing out that he got lucky got multiple kill shots.

Even if the best necro he still is at a massive disadvantage remember that herald? holy cow the mobility and damage of herald is nuts, whats worse is if you play vs the best thief(sindrener) its impossible to nearly impossible which is ridiculous). You should never be so hard countered that you have no chance. I think thief needs to lose something.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Are there LOS spots where pets can't follow ? I'd really like to know those. You'd still be hit with barrage though, i suppose..

On coliseum are some, it is in general one of the worst maps for Ranger i would say. Skyhammer has on midpoint... these are the first coming to mind at least. They are also the ones fast and easy enough to reach that you are not already dead by pew pew before reaching them. On legacy are one on each side point where you can have shorter pathing than the pet but they are not that fast to reach and will only buy a little bit of time before the pet reachs you. Forest has some better ones on one side point and on mid point. The other side point (with the stairs) is equally to legacy.

I remember using jumping pads on skyhammer on sidenode to get on the platforms, thought i was safe untill ranger jumped up, gazelle started spasming on the bottom and teleported on top to whack me lol.nowhere is safe I tell ya !

[shadowpass.4236]

@"bravan.3876" said:Btw Ranger pets are not supposed to work like a passive dmg sourge you can send into teamfights for ages and hope it survives in heavy aoe, you have a button for calling your pet back and forward, and send it on different targets. If you just let the pet do his thing passively and let it die in aoe than you play it wrong.That is exactly the point, the pet can bait out too many defensive cooldowns by its own even during the Ranger is kiting/ los-ing/ stealthed/ blocking etc himself and can't be hurt.

:thinking:

Pets aren't these mobile, unkillable nukes. They barely do damage outside of like 2 attacks on Gazelle and they deal negative damage in a team fight when there is a Firebrand and other classes throwing around protective boons like Aegis and Blind (which would literally nullify Gazelle's damaging skills).

Quick tip: if you're blowing defensive cooldowns on anything except Smokescale's Takedown or Gazelle's Charge, you're doing it wrong. You can literally walk out of Gazelle's Head Toss before it goes off, unless you're CC'd/immobilized, but dodge the Child of Earth if you know the pet swap to Gazelle's cooldown is up. So if by "too many cooldowns" you mean a single dodge for both pets, then yeah, sure. Anything else is just a waste and you need to practice more against rangers if you're doing dumb stuff like dodging their auto attacks (instead of kiting the pet) and blowing defensives on skills that have deal 3k damage like SS's Smoke Assault.

1. - Mirror Matchup
2. - Punishing Maul
3. - Countering Longbow and Punishing Evade Frames
4. - Good example on how to avoid/bait out ranger skills whilst simultaneously keeping track of pet attacks in a winning 1v2.

I think I get memed maybe once a year against a oneshot WI Sic Em Soulbeast (they are basically perma dead vs. me regardless of class once I know what they're running). But people saying stuff like: rangers get carried by their pets, pets are tracing missiles, and I'm dying to the pets! are hilarious. I can't remember the last time I actually died to a Marksmanship Gazelle burst. It just doesn't happen to players once they know where the damage on ranger comes from (not even that hard to figure out). Which also happens to be the reason why rangers are literally nonexistent in more competitive settings. So when I hear, "So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions." ... yeah, by that definition, all of these people have L2P issues. With that being said, I've also suggested several nerfs to the class that actually address issues:

1. Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
2. Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
3. Lower the block duration on GS4 to 2s.
4. Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
5. Remove Plasma from Siamoth.

But yeah. Those videos are a few examples on how to fight against rangers. Not very difficult.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Tycura.1982"

Eeeeh I dunno man. Rangers can do it, Deadeyes do same thing, FA Ele/Temp/Weaver does same thing, PP Thieves do same thing.

Deadeyes die if you managed to get in on them and out play their stealth or prevent them from entering stealth LoS works on them and they cant easily re position without using utility and there is no pet to harrass you out of the LoS hiding spot or a skill like long bow 5 that can slightly hit behind most LoS spots.

FA Ele dies immediately the moment you catch it and its escapes are very finite with a high enough cd that they cant run forever should you make the right play. LoS works on them too because of this.

PP Thief again dies immediately the moment you catch.

The moment ranger gets caught in melee range they can pop signet of stone or block then use smoke scale for stealth access etc or smoke assault for evades. Should any CC land they have at least 2 break stuns which will instantly get them out of a tight spot with lightning reflexes or protect me. Then you have the issue of the pet conventently ccing players with non command cc attacks (which happens far too often) Between all these things ranger by far at a mechanical advantage in terms of survivability even once some one gets in close on them and they have good melee pressure almost as good as warriors with the use of GS.

The other examples you named often dont also have good melee counter pressure especially not ele and thief

Players in GW2 just hate pew pew, end of story. Doesn't matter if it's OP or UP. People hate ranged attack mechanics in this game that go any further than about 600 range.

Its not a matter of hating pew pew its a matter of the fact that once some one gets in on a range class they expect it not to be a warrior lol.There is not other ranged profession in this game that has = strong melee pressure and melee defense in the same build as ranger thats why people dislike it. You add soul beast options like plasma usage for a super wide boon table or pets that can cc without command for 5k yes 5k without a critical hit btw and that makes it very hated.

So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions.

If socurge players had of said you just need to L2P when shades instantly roasted players with no tell no one would have agreed with that statement.So telling people to just LoS is similar to saying just dont stand on a shade back then when you had 2-3 scourge man teams and it was nearly impossible to avoid shades with almost no indicators for where they were going to pop up.

There is a difference in being skilled and just using a profession that is mechanically superior to others.Just because it can lose to a few niche things does not make it balanced. Thats more or less what people are trying to tell you.

Well the best or one of the best necros in pvp managed to kill sindrener 3 times in a match, so anything's possible.(refering to holtz)

Of course its possible for necro to win any match up just like its possible for warrior or ranger or any other profession but just because that does not make something balanced lol. I am a firm believer of the ideal that "anything is 'technically' possible" There could be a wide number of reasons why the profession with the advantage wins or the one with the disadvantage wins (how ever you want to put that). Sadly if you balance for the best only anyone below the best will see the game as being badly balanced if you balance for new players anyone with a decent number of hours will see it as badly balanced. ITs gotta be on the middle/high ground but not the top percentile. The majority of the games players are not top percentiles lol. Sadly being top player on x profession does not mean the be all end all of how something should / should not be balanced.

True i was pointing out that he got lucky got multiple kill shots.

Even if the best necro he still is at a massive disadvantage remember that herald? holy cow the mobility and damage of herald is nuts, whats worse is if you play vs the best thief(sindrener) its impossible to nearly impossible which is ridiculous). You should never be so hard countered that you have no chance. I think thief needs to lose something.

Necro has kind of be held back by its core ideals and thats kept it from getting too far out of hand "until scourge" but basically everything before scourge is not as crazy as what the others can do from a mechanical perspective. Even the biggest feature of reaper which was chill got culled down to the point that its not a real factor in most matchups. Anets idea is that it must be slow in mobility, damage, and potential ramp but at the same time its suppose to be slow to die because of shroud soaking damage. But when damage does 20k in a few seconds well... soaking does not come close to equalling what just damage evasion or blocking produces in sustain.

Even the minor changes like before HoT where chill stopped working on leaps and another gap closers that are not blinks etc hurt necros a good bit. that said i think having counters is fine but only if everyone has roughly the same number of counters and even then yes it shouldn't mean instant stomp.

IF something counters me to the point I didn't get the chance to retaliate or play i have issue with that. Aka being one shot from stealth for example regardless of who does it.

It will be interesting to see how things change.

[Eurantien.4632]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Btw Ranger pets are not supposed to work like a passive dmg sourge you can send into teamfights for ages and hope it survives in heavy aoe, you have a button for calling your pet back and forward, and send it on different targets. If you just let the pet do his thing passively and let it die in aoe than you play it wrong.That is exactly the point, the pet can bait out too many defensive cooldowns by its own even during the Ranger is kiting/ los-ing/ stealthed/ blocking etc himself and can't be hurt.

:thinking:

Pets aren't these mobile, unkillable nukes. They barely do damage outside of like 2 attacks on Gazelle and they deal negative damage in a team fight when there is a Firebrand and other classes throwing around protective boons like Aegis and Blind (which would literally nullify Gazelle's damaging skills).

Quick tip: if you're blowing defensive cooldowns on anything except Smokescale's Takedown or Gazelle's Charge, you're doing it wrong. You can literally walk out of Gazelle's Head Toss before it goes off, unless you're CC'd/immobilized, but dodge the Child of Earth if you know the pet swap to Gazelle's cooldown is up. So if by "too many cooldowns" you mean a single dodge for both pets, then yeah, sure. Anything else is just a waste and you need to practice more against rangers if you're doing dumb stuff like dodging their auto attacks (instead of kiting the pet) and blowing defensives on skills that have deal 3k damage like SS's Smoke Assault.

1. - Mirror Matchup
2. - Punishing Maul
3. - Countering Longbow and Punishing Evade Frames
4. - Good example on how to avoid/bait out ranger skills whilst simultaneously keeping track of pet attacks in a winning 1v2.

I think I get memed maybe once a year against a oneshot WI Sic Em Soulbeast (they are basically perma dead vs. me regardless of class once I know what they're running). But people saying stuff like: rangers get carried by their pets, pets are tracing missiles, and I'm dying to the pets! are hilarious. I can't remember the last time I actually died to a Marksmanship Gazelle burst. It just doesn't happen to players once they know where the damage on ranger comes from (not even that hard to figure out). Which also happens to be the reason why rangers are literally nonexistent in more competitive settings. So when I hear, "So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions." ... yeah, by that definition, all of these people have L2P issues. With that being said, I've also suggested several nerfs to the class that actually address issues:

1. Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
2. Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
3. Lower the block duration on GS4 to 2s.
4. Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
5. Remove Plasma from Siamoth.

But yeah. Those videos are a few examples on how to fight against rangers. Not very difficult.

I think there is some confirmation bias. People remember when the pet kills them. Not when the pet doesn't. As rangers we know it doesn't not happen too often.

1. They could even halve the damage on gazelle F2 and charge and it'd still be a good pet.

2. Moment of Clarity is fine. How often are rangers chaining interrupts into hard hitting pet skills? - they'd are not.

3. Shouldn't we fix the bug abuse on GS-4 before we nerf it more?

4. Im heavily bias against all things WS so... sure.

5. Agreed

[shadowpass.4236]

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Btw Ranger pets are not supposed to work like a passive dmg sourge you can send into teamfights for ages and hope it survives in heavy aoe, you have a button for calling your pet back and forward, and send it on different targets. If you just let the pet do his thing passively and let it die in aoe than you play it wrong.That is exactly the point, the pet can bait out too many defensive cooldowns by its own even during the Ranger is kiting/ los-ing/ stealthed/ blocking etc himself and can't be hurt.

:thinking:

Pets aren't these mobile, unkillable nukes. They barely do damage outside of like 2 attacks on Gazelle and they deal negative damage in a team fight when there is a Firebrand and other classes throwing around protective boons like Aegis and Blind (which would literally nullify Gazelle's damaging skills).

Quick tip: if you're blowing defensive cooldowns on anything except Smokescale's Takedown or Gazelle's Charge, you're doing it wrong. You can literally walk out of Gazelle's Head Toss before it goes off, unless you're CC'd/immobilized, but dodge the Child of Earth if you know the pet swap to Gazelle's cooldown is up. So if by "too many cooldowns" you mean a single dodge for both pets, then yeah, sure. Anything else is just a waste and you need to practice more against rangers if you're doing dumb stuff like dodging their auto attacks (instead of kiting the pet) and blowing defensives on skills that have deal 3k damage like SS's Smoke Assault.

1. - Mirror Matchup
2. - Punishing Maul
3. - Countering Longbow and Punishing Evade Frames
4. - Good example on how to avoid/bait out ranger skills whilst simultaneously keeping track of pet attacks in a winning 1v2.

I think I get memed maybe once a year against a oneshot WI Sic Em Soulbeast (they are basically perma dead vs. me regardless of class once I know what they're running). But people saying stuff like: rangers get carried by their pets, pets are tracing missiles, and I'm dying to the pets! are hilarious. I can't remember the last time I actually died to a Marksmanship Gazelle burst. It just doesn't happen to players once they know where the damage on ranger comes from (not even that hard to figure out). Which also happens to be the reason why rangers are literally nonexistent in more competitive settings. So when I hear, "So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions." ... yeah, by that definition, all of these people have L2P issues. With that being said, I've also suggested several nerfs to the class that actually address issues:

1. Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
2. Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
3. Lower the block duration on GS4 to 2s.
4. Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
5. Remove Plasma from Siamoth.

But yeah. Those videos are a few examples on how to fight against rangers. Not very difficult.

I think there is someone confirmation bias. People remember when the pet kills them. Not when the pet doesn't. As rangers we know it doesn't not happen too often.

1. They could even halve the damage on gazelle F2 and charge and it'd still be a good pet.

2. Moment of Clarity is fine. How often are rangers chaining interrupts into hard hitting pet skills? - they'd are not.

3. Shouldn't we fix the bug abuse on GS-4 before we nerf it more?

4. Im heavily bias against all things WS so... sure.

5. Agreed

Yeah 100%. Some people were in disbelief after I linked them

showing how much damage demo Soulbeast actually does.

Stuff like, "Hah you must not be running the right build if your Mauls and Gazelle aren't oneshotting the Light Golems." :joy:

Like nah... that's just how much damage we actually put out. I also said somewhere that 70% of the time, people won't even notice the pet hitting them because both Charge and Head Toss have 2.4k base damage, 37% crit chance, and 170% crit damage on a BM build. In other words, 70% of the time, both of those skills will only hit for around 2.4k damage. The other 30%, they might crit for 4k damage. The 10% of the time those crits will deal meaningful damage are when Charge gets RNG buffed with interrupts on Marksmanship (generally Core Rangers instead of Soulbeasts) and AOO and Head Toss getting buffed with a stationary, non-stowable Hilt Bash interrupt to proc MoC into AOO Maul + Head Toss.

I mean personally, I don't think any of that stuff is in heavy need of adjustments asides from maybe the cast time being hard to interrupt on TU. With that being said, I think these changes are a good way to address some of the concerns people have with the class atm.

[Axl.8924]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Tycura.1982"

Eeeeh I dunno man. Rangers can do it, Deadeyes do same thing, FA Ele/Temp/Weaver does same thing, PP Thieves do same thing.

Deadeyes die if you managed to get in on them and out play their stealth or prevent them from entering stealth LoS works on them and they cant easily re position without using utility and there is no pet to harrass you out of the LoS hiding spot or a skill like long bow 5 that can slightly hit behind most LoS spots.

FA Ele dies immediately the moment you catch it and its escapes are very finite with a high enough cd that they cant run forever should you make the right play. LoS works on them too because of this.

PP Thief again dies immediately the moment you catch.

The moment ranger gets caught in melee range they can pop signet of stone or block then use smoke scale for stealth access etc or smoke assault for evades. Should any CC land they have at least 2 break stuns which will instantly get them out of a tight spot with lightning reflexes or protect me. Then you have the issue of the pet conventently ccing players with non command cc attacks (which happens far too often) Between all these things ranger by far at a mechanical advantage in terms of survivability even once some one gets in close on them and they have good melee pressure almost as good as warriors with the use of GS.

The other examples you named often dont also have good melee counter pressure especially not ele and thief

Players in GW2 just hate pew pew, end of story. Doesn't matter if it's OP or UP. People hate ranged attack mechanics in this game that go any further than about 600 range.

Its not a matter of hating pew pew its a matter of the fact that once some one gets in on a range class they expect it not to be a warrior lol.There is not other ranged profession in this game that has = strong melee pressure and melee defense in the same build as ranger thats why people dislike it. You add soul beast options like plasma usage for a super wide boon table or pets that can cc without command for 5k yes 5k without a critical hit btw and that makes it very hated.

So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions.

If socurge players had of said you just need to L2P when shades instantly roasted players with no tell no one would have agreed with that statement.So telling people to just LoS is similar to saying just dont stand on a shade back then when you had 2-3 scourge man teams and it was nearly impossible to avoid shades with almost no indicators for where they were going to pop up.

There is a difference in being skilled and just using a profession that is mechanically superior to others.Just because it can lose to a few niche things does not make it balanced. Thats more or less what people are trying to tell you.

Well the best or one of the best necros in pvp managed to kill sindrener 3 times in a match, so anything's possible.(refering to holtz)

Of course its possible for necro to win any match up just like its possible for warrior or ranger or any other profession but just because that does not make something balanced lol. I am a firm believer of the ideal that "anything is 'technically' possible" There could be a wide number of reasons why the profession with the advantage wins or the one with the disadvantage wins (how ever you want to put that). Sadly if you balance for the best only anyone below the best will see the game as being badly balanced if you balance for new players anyone with a decent number of hours will see it as badly balanced. ITs gotta be on the middle/high ground but not the top percentile. The majority of the games players are not top percentiles lol. Sadly being top player on x profession does not mean the be all end all of how something should / should not be balanced.

True i was pointing out that he got lucky got multiple kill shots.

Even if the best necro he still is at a massive disadvantage remember that herald? holy cow the mobility and damage of herald is nuts, whats worse is if you play vs the best thief(sindrener) its impossible to nearly impossible which is ridiculous). You should never be so hard countered that you have no chance. I think thief needs to lose something.

Necro has kind of be held back by its core ideals and thats kept it from getting too far out of hand "until scourge" but basically everything before scourge is not as crazy as what the others can do from a mechanical perspective. Even the biggest feature of reaper which was chill got culled down to the point that its not a real factor in most matchups. Anets idea is that it must be slow in mobility, damage, and potential ramp but at the same time its suppose to be slow to die because of shroud soaking damage. But when damage does 20k in a few seconds well... soaking does not come close to equalling what just damage evasion or blocking produces in sustain.

Even the minor changes like before HoT where chill stopped working on leaps and another gap closers that are not blinks etc hurt necros a good bit. that said i think having counters is fine but only if everyone has roughly the same number of counters and even then yes it shouldn't mean instant stomp.

IF something counters me to the point I didn't get the chance to retaliate or play i have issue with that. Aka being one shot from stealth for example regardless of who does it.

It will be interesting to see how things change.

Its why i think warrs and thiefs need to be nerfed along with most other classes. Seeing how herald played in that vid it was pretty insane ports with cc and dmg combined WOW.

[bravan.3876]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Btw Ranger pets are not supposed to work like a passive dmg sourge you can send into teamfights for ages and hope it survives in heavy aoe, you have a button for calling your pet back and forward, and send it on different targets. If you just let the pet do his thing passively and let it die in aoe than you play it wrong.That is exactly the point, the pet can bait out too many defensive cooldowns by its own even during the Ranger is kiting/ los-ing/ stealthed/ blocking etc himself and can't be hurt.

:thinking:

Pets aren't these mobile, unkillable nukes. They barely do damage outside of like 2 attacks on Gazelle and they deal negative damage in a team fight when there is a Firebrand and other classes throwing around protective boons like Aegis and Blind (which would literally nullify Gazelle's damaging skills).

Quick tip: if you're blowing defensive cooldowns on anything except Smokescale's Takedown or Gazelle's Charge, you're doing it wrong. You can literally walk out of Gazelle's Head Toss before it goes off, unless you're CC'd/immobilized, but dodge the Child of Earth if you know the pet swap to Gazelle's cooldown is up. So if by "too many cooldowns" you mean a single dodge for both pets, then yeah, sure. Anything else is just a waste and you need to practice more against rangers if you're doing dumb stuff like dodging their auto attacks (instead of kiting the pet) and blowing defensives on skills that have deal 3k damage like SS's Smoke Assault.

1. - Mirror Matchup
2. - Punishing Maul
3. - Countering Longbow and Punishing Evade Frames
4. - Good example on how to avoid/bait out ranger skills whilst simultaneously keeping track of pet attacks in a winning 1v2.

I think I get memed maybe once a year against a oneshot WI Sic Em Soulbeast (they are basically perma dead vs. me regardless of class once I know what they're running). But people saying stuff like: rangers get carried by their pets, pets are tracing missiles, and I'm dying to the pets! are hilarious. I can't remember the last time I actually died to a Marksmanship Gazelle burst. It just doesn't happen to players once they know where the damage on ranger comes from (not even that hard to figure out). Which also happens to be the reason why rangers are literally nonexistent in more competitive settings. So when I hear, "So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions." ... yeah, by that definition, all of these people have L2P issues. With that being said, I've also suggested several nerfs to the class that actually address issues:

1. Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
2. Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
3. Lower the block duration on GS4 to 2s.
4. Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
5. Remove Plasma from Siamoth.

But yeah. Those videos are a few examples on how to fight against rangers. Not very difficult.

One dodge on not glassy builds per pet at least. This is one dodge i have less vs the Ranger and it is not that the Ranger does ignorable dmg on his own skills in compenastion for these high dmg pets. One dodge i need to do during the Ranger is kiting/ losing and resetting cds and hp himself. On glassy builds even the constant dmg from autoattacks is kite worthy. Where is the problem to make pets less dependant on dmg but more on utility/ support skills? You complain about passive npc carry on Condimirage, it is the same problematic with Ranger (just with a bit lower dmg compared to 3 clones on condibuilds but the Ranger does not need to use own recources for most of it). If Rangers then have too low dmg (what is unlikely considering the powercreep we have in the game atm) then Ranger can get more dmg on his own stills as compensation. Npcs with self activating skills (even only autoattacks) should not make remarkable dmg, i say that for condiclones normal autoattacks on Condimesmer, just as for condi clone ambushes (what are not even passive, the Mesmer has to use the dodge button and uses defensive recoures for that dmg) just as i say it to Ranger pets. Ranger would be more fun when you don't need to think that the pet did a majority in this fight and take your honor and respect for the win. When you win the fight by your skill. I don't get why main class player prefer passive carryplaystyle over active fun and skilled mechanics. I am not voting for overnerfs here, there is no need to worry about that. It is also simple and obvious balance logic when you don't let passive skills of npcs have too much impact. I rly think that is obvious.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:nowhere is safe I tell ya !

God help us xD

[Eurantien.4632]

Imagine not having to dodge someone's class mechanic.

[bravan.3876]

@Eurantien.4632 said:Imagine not having to dodge someone's class mechanic.

Overexaggerating semantic. Imagine having a 90% passive class mechanic with such high pressure.

Actually not even Condimirage has, it is not as passive as the pet, the Mesmer still needs to use the dodge button. Its all about how active is the class mechanic designed and how much pressure it can put out passively. I gave an idea to make the pet mechanic less passive and more skillbased without deleting it or making it useless. I didn't even say no dmg on pets, i just said remarkable less and give pets another focus on utitlity and support instead just rawr dmg. If Ranger dmg should be too low overall, then it is also no problem to compensate the Ranger with more dmg on his own skills, just like we all suggested for Condimirage on a way less passive class mechanic... bias says hello.

[Eurantien.4632]

Dude thinks mesmer clones are more interactive than pets. You don't know what you're talking about lol.

Link me a guide on how to set up a keyboard input thing on screen and I'll stream and you can see how often pet skills are used. I'm like ducking Mozart on my pet skills trying to control that god awful AI. No input? Lol

[bravan.3876]

@Eurantien.4632 said:Dude thinks mesmer clones are more interactive than pets. You don't know what you're talking about lol.

Link me a guide on how to set up a keyboard input thing on screen and I'll stream and you can see how often pet skills are used. I'm like ducking Mozart on my pet skills trying to control that god awful AI. No input? Lol

The clones itself are not, but they don't do anything alone, the autoattack dmg is nearly zero (at least on power weapons, and that is how it should be and how it should be also on condi weapons that is exactly the point). The Mirage mechanic with commanding clones via the dodge button is active but also only as long as the dmg is not that high that dodging only defensive is rewarding enough, so the player doesn't need to think about when to dodge offensive and when to dodge defensive. I explained that several times.Anyway it is not a Mesmer thread i just wanted to point out the bias. The fact is, we are talking about passive npc impact in both cases. I just suggest the same as i did for Condimirage. Take away rawr dmg from npc passives and if needed give it back in players hand when dmg is too low after that rework. Give pets only utility and support skills on their passives, at max a short daze. The Rangers pet command button (if it is f1 or f2) can include hard cc because that is actively done by the player (just like clone ambushes). I think about the fear some dogs have on their Ranger command skill, it is active it has an very good visible animation and a longer casttime. No one would cry about the from ranger itself timed fear skill on doggies. Where is the problem with that?

[ZDragon.3046]

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Tycura.1982"

Eeeeh I dunno man. Rangers can do it, Deadeyes do same thing, FA Ele/Temp/Weaver does same thing, PP Thieves do same thing.

Deadeyes die if you managed to get in on them and out play their stealth or prevent them from entering stealth LoS works on them and they cant easily re position without using utility and there is no pet to harrass you out of the LoS hiding spot or a skill like long bow 5 that can slightly hit behind most LoS spots.

FA Ele dies immediately the moment you catch it and its escapes are very finite with a high enough cd that they cant run forever should you make the right play. LoS works on them too because of this.

PP Thief again dies immediately the moment you catch.

The moment ranger gets caught in melee range they can pop signet of stone or block then use smoke scale for stealth access etc or smoke assault for evades. Should any CC land they have at least 2 break stuns which will instantly get them out of a tight spot with lightning reflexes or protect me. Then you have the issue of the pet conventently ccing players with non command cc attacks (which happens far too often) Between all these things ranger by far at a mechanical advantage in terms of survivability even once some one gets in close on them and they have good melee pressure almost as good as warriors with the use of GS.

The other examples you named often dont also have good melee counter pressure especially not ele and thief

Players in GW2 just hate pew pew, end of story. Doesn't matter if it's OP or UP. People hate ranged attack mechanics in this game that go any further than about 600 range.

Its not a matter of hating pew pew its a matter of the fact that once some one gets in on a range class they expect it not to be a warrior lol.There is not other ranged profession in this game that has = strong melee pressure and melee defense in the same build as ranger thats why people dislike it. You add soul beast options like plasma usage for a super wide boon table or pets that can cc without command for 5k yes 5k without a critical hit btw and that makes it very hated.

So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions.

If socurge players had of said you just need to L2P when shades instantly roasted players with no tell no one would have agreed with that statement.So telling people to just LoS is similar to saying just dont stand on a shade back then when you had 2-3 scourge man teams and it was nearly impossible to avoid shades with almost no indicators for where they were going to pop up.

There is a difference in being skilled and just using a profession that is mechanically superior to others.Just because it can lose to a few niche things does not make it balanced. Thats more or less what people are trying to tell you.

Well the best or one of the best necros in pvp managed to kill sindrener 3 times in a match, so anything's possible.(refering to holtz)

Of course its possible for necro to win any match up just like its possible for warrior or ranger or any other profession but just because that does not make something balanced lol. I am a firm believer of the ideal that "anything is 'technically' possible" There could be a wide number of reasons why the profession with the advantage wins or the one with the disadvantage wins (how ever you want to put that). Sadly if you balance for the best only anyone below the best will see the game as being badly balanced if you balance for new players anyone with a decent number of hours will see it as badly balanced. ITs gotta be on the middle/high ground but not the top percentile. The majority of the games players are not top percentiles lol. Sadly being top player on x profession does not mean the be all end all of how something should / should not be balanced.

True i was pointing out that he got lucky got multiple kill shots.

Even if the best necro he still is at a massive disadvantage remember that herald? holy cow the mobility and damage of herald is nuts, whats worse is if you play vs the best thief(sindrener) its impossible to nearly impossible which is ridiculous). You should never be so hard countered that you have no chance. I think thief needs to lose something.

Necro has kind of be held back by its core ideals and thats kept it from getting too far out of hand "until scourge" but basically everything before scourge is not as crazy as what the others can do from a mechanical perspective. Even the biggest feature of reaper which was chill got culled down to the point that its not a real factor in most matchups. Anets idea is that it must be slow in mobility, damage, and potential ramp but at the same time its suppose to be slow to die because of shroud soaking damage. But when damage does 20k in a few seconds well... soaking does not come close to equalling what just damage evasion or blocking produces in sustain.

Even the minor changes like before HoT where chill stopped working on leaps and another gap closers that are not blinks etc hurt necros a good bit. that said i think having counters is fine but only if everyone has roughly the same number of counters and even then yes it shouldn't mean instant stomp.

IF something counters me to the point I didn't get the chance to retaliate or play i have issue with that. Aka being one shot from stealth for example regardless of who does it.

It will be interesting to see how things change.

Its why i think warrs and thiefs need to be nerfed along with most other classes. Seeing how herald played in that vid it was pretty insane ports with cc and dmg combined WOW.

Well to be fair necro has a few things it needs in reductions too but they are very niche things and or things that should have been done correctly the first time instead of just bandaid fixing much like the Reapers Onslaught buff that was just a hard bandaid to reapers slow attack speed problem. Rather than adjusting the cast times on base shroud to make the speed compeitive but not quickness level they just slapped quickness on RO and pigeon toed everyone into it. If we see less boons we will no doubt see some reductions too boon corrupts as well as skills that just do a lot of things in one use like scepter 3 that tool tip is pretty bloated an i wont be surprised if it gets some meaty reductions.

Warriors mostly need might synergy looked into and making some things more clear visually.Thief needs something i dont really know what to say though i know people complaint about pistol whip but i mean thief is almost like necro if something is strong / viable people will not like it. Thief unfortunately will always be a pain in the butt by their design of allowing them to use skills rapidly with no cd so i think no matter how they nerf them someone will aways find away to make them so annoying that people will always want them nerfed.

[megilandil.7506]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Tycura.1982

Eeeeh I dunno man. Rangers can do it, Deadeyes do same thing, FA Ele/Temp/Weaver does same thing, PP Thieves do same thing.

Players in GW2 just hate pew pew, end of story. Doesn't matter if it's OP or UP. People hate ranged attack mechanics in this game that go any further than about 600 range.

simply because people hate being destroyed in safemode range, and that is agravated by the fact that all safemode ranged classes have good evasive maniobres to keep the safe distance and/or a decent kit for close combat, if ranged classes were doomed if enemy can reach hand to hand people will hate less pew pew

[shadowpass.4236]

@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Btw Ranger pets are not supposed to work like a passive dmg sourge you can send into teamfights for ages and hope it survives in heavy aoe, you have a button for calling your pet back and forward, and send it on different targets. If you just let the pet do his thing passively and let it die in aoe than you play it wrong.That is exactly the point, the pet can bait out too many defensive cooldowns by its own even during the Ranger is kiting/ los-ing/ stealthed/ blocking etc himself and can't be hurt.

:thinking:

Pets aren't these mobile, unkillable nukes. They barely do damage outside of like 2 attacks on Gazelle and they deal negative damage in a team fight when there is a Firebrand and other classes throwing around protective boons like Aegis and Blind (which would literally nullify Gazelle's damaging skills).

Quick tip: if you're blowing defensive cooldowns on anything except Smokescale's Takedown or Gazelle's Charge, you're doing it wrong. You can literally walk out of Gazelle's Head Toss before it goes off, unless you're CC'd/immobilized, but dodge the Child of Earth if you know the pet swap to Gazelle's cooldown is up. So if by "too many cooldowns" you mean a single dodge for both pets, then yeah, sure. Anything else is just a waste and you need to practice more against rangers if you're doing dumb stuff like dodging their auto attacks (instead of kiting the pet) and blowing defensives on skills that have deal 3k damage like SS's Smoke Assault.

1. - Mirror Matchup
2. - Punishing Maul
3. - Countering Longbow and Punishing Evade Frames
4. - Good example on how to avoid/bait out ranger skills whilst simultaneously keeping track of pet attacks in a winning 1v2.

I think I get memed maybe once a year against a oneshot WI Sic Em Soulbeast (they are basically perma dead vs. me regardless of class once I know what they're running). But people saying stuff like: rangers get carried by their pets, pets are tracing missiles, and I'm dying to the pets! are hilarious. I can't remember the last time I actually died to a Marksmanship Gazelle burst. It just doesn't happen to players once they know where the damage on ranger comes from (not even that hard to figure out). Which also happens to be the reason why rangers are literally nonexistent in more competitive settings. So when I hear, "So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions." ... yeah, by that definition, all of these people have L2P issues. With that being said, I've also suggested several nerfs to the class that actually address issues:

1. Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
2. Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
3. Lower the block duration on GS4 to 2s.
4. Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
5. Remove Plasma from Siamoth.

But yeah. Those videos are a few examples on how to fight against rangers. Not very difficult.

One dodge on not glassy builds per pet at least. This is one dodge i have less vs the Ranger and it is not that the Ranger does ignorable dmg on his own skills in compenastion for these high dmg pets. On glassy builds even the constant dmg from autoattacks is kite worthy. Where is the problem to make pets less dependant on dmg but more on utility/ support skills? You complain about passive npc carry on Condimirage, it is the same problematic with Ranger (just with a bit lower dmg compared to 3 clones on condibuilds but the Ranger does not need to use own recources for most of it). If Rangers then have too low dmg (what is unlikely considering the powercreep we have in the game atm) then Ranger can get more dmg on his own stills as compensation. Npcs with self activating skills (even only autoattacks) should not make remarkable dmg, i say that for condiclones normal autoattacks on Condimesmer, just as for condi clone ambushes (what are not even passive, the Mesmer has to use the dodge button and uses defensive recoures for that dmg) just as i say it to Ranger pets. Ranger would be more fun when you don't need to think that pet did a majority in this fight and take your honor and respect for the win. When you win the fight by your skill. I don't get why main class player prefer passive carryplaystyle over active fun and skilled mechanics. i am not voting for overnerfs here, there is no need to worry about that. It is also simple and obvious balance logic when you don't let passive skills of npcs have too much impact. I rly think that is obvious.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:nowhere is safe I tell ya !

God help us xD

See that's the other thing. You don't have to dodge any more vs. ranger than you would have to vs. other classes. Let's take a look at the skills on some meta builds that you HAVE to frequently dodge/avoid.

https://imgur.com/a/DSoJbfd

Most of the meta builds come out to around 30-36 defensive cooldowns per minute. Ranger is no exception.

@"Eurantien.4632"

Hey you should take a look at the image I linked as well. I just calculated how many defensives per minute you need to use vs. meta Strength Spellbreaker, Condi Mirage, and Sic Em Soulbeast. Might be helpful.

[bravan.3876]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Btw Ranger pets are not supposed to work like a passive dmg sourge you can send into teamfights for ages and hope it survives in heavy aoe, you have a button for calling your pet back and forward, and send it on different targets. If you just let the pet do his thing passively and let it die in aoe than you play it wrong.That is exactly the point, the pet can bait out too many defensive cooldowns by its own even during the Ranger is kiting/ los-ing/ stealthed/ blocking etc himself and can't be hurt.

:thinking:

Pets aren't these mobile, unkillable nukes. They barely do damage outside of like 2 attacks on Gazelle and they deal negative damage in a team fight when there is a Firebrand and other classes throwing around protective boons like Aegis and Blind (which would literally nullify Gazelle's damaging skills).

Quick tip: if you're blowing defensive cooldowns on anything except Smokescale's Takedown or Gazelle's Charge, you're doing it wrong. You can literally walk out of Gazelle's Head Toss before it goes off, unless you're CC'd/immobilized, but dodge the Child of Earth if you know the pet swap to Gazelle's cooldown is up. So if by "too many cooldowns" you mean a single dodge for both pets, then yeah, sure. Anything else is just a waste and you need to practice more against rangers if you're doing dumb stuff like dodging their auto attacks (instead of kiting the pet) and blowing defensives on skills that have deal 3k damage like SS's Smoke Assault.

1. - Mirror Matchup
2. - Punishing Maul
3. - Countering Longbow and Punishing Evade Frames
4. - Good example on how to avoid/bait out ranger skills whilst simultaneously keeping track of pet attacks in a winning 1v2.

I think I get memed maybe once a year against a oneshot WI Sic Em Soulbeast (they are basically perma dead vs. me regardless of class once I know what they're running). But people saying stuff like: rangers get carried by their pets, pets are tracing missiles, and I'm dying to the pets! are hilarious. I can't remember the last time I actually died to a Marksmanship Gazelle burst. It just doesn't happen to players once they know where the damage on ranger comes from (not even that hard to figure out). Which also happens to be the reason why rangers are literally nonexistent in more competitive settings. So when I hear, "So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions." ... yeah, by that definition, all of these people have L2P issues. With that being said, I've also suggested several nerfs to the class that actually address issues:

1. Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
2. Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
3. Lower the block duration on GS4 to 2s.
4. Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
5. Remove Plasma from Siamoth.

But yeah. Those videos are a few examples on how to fight against rangers. Not very difficult.

One dodge on not glassy builds per pet at least. This is one dodge i have less vs the Ranger and it is not that the Ranger does ignorable dmg on his own skills in compenastion for these high dmg pets. On glassy builds even the constant dmg from autoattacks is kite worthy. Where is the problem to make pets less dependant on dmg but more on utility/ support skills? You complain about passive npc carry on Condimirage, it is the same problematic with Ranger (just with a bit lower dmg compared to 3 clones on condibuilds but the Ranger does not need to use own recources for most of it). If Rangers then have too low dmg (what is unlikely considering the powercreep we have in the game atm) then Ranger can get more dmg on his own stills as compensation. Npcs with self activating skills (even only autoattacks) should not make remarkable dmg, i say that for condiclones normal autoattacks on Condimesmer, just as for condi clone ambushes (what are not even passive, the Mesmer has to use the dodge button and uses defensive recoures for that dmg) just as i say it to Ranger pets. Ranger would be more fun when you don't need to think that pet did a majority in this fight and take your honor and respect for the win. When you win the fight by your skill. I don't get why main class player prefer passive carryplaystyle over active fun and skilled mechanics. i am not voting for overnerfs here, there is no need to worry about that. It is also simple and obvious balance logic when you don't let passive skills of npcs have too much impact. I rly think that is obvious.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:nowhere is safe I tell ya !

God help us xD

See that's the other thing. You don't have to dodge any more vs. ranger than you would have to vs. other classes. Let's take a look at the skills on some meta builds that you HAVE to frequently dodge/avoid.

https://imgur.com/a/DSoJbfd

Most of the meta builds come out to around 30-36 defensive cooldowns per minute. Ranger is no exception.

Yes exactly i just have to dodge the same or even more (rarely, Powermes is the only example i can remember atm, where i can dodge less and avoid most of the stuff they do) skills from the Ranger itself as i have vs other classes even though it has a Pet also consuming defensive skills from me. I miss a little bit the opportunity costs a Ranger has for having a pet with such impactfull passive skills i have to react to too. I am asking again: Where you both see the problem in reworking pets into more utility and support tools instead rawr dmg and if the Ranger should have too less dmg overall after this we can compensate. I don't see a problem and i think in terms of skillceiling/floor and in terms of balance logic (that passive npc skills should not have high impact by their own) it is quite obvious the better way.

[Eurantien.4632]

@shadowpass.4236

I'd add charge merge, hilt bash if you didn't.

And i would add dodge to mesmers

[ZDragon.3046]

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Btw Ranger pets are not supposed to work like a passive dmg sourge you can send into teamfights for ages and hope it survives in heavy aoe, you have a button for calling your pet back and forward, and send it on different targets. If you just let the pet do his thing passively and let it die in aoe than you play it wrong.That is exactly the point, the pet can bait out too many defensive cooldowns by its own even during the Ranger is kiting/ los-ing/ stealthed/ blocking etc himself and can't be hurt.

:thinking:

Pets aren't these mobile, unkillable nukes. They barely do damage outside of like 2 attacks on Gazelle and they deal negative damage in a team fight when there is a Firebrand and other classes throwing around protective boons like Aegis and Blind (which would literally nullify Gazelle's damaging skills).

Quick tip: if you're blowing defensive cooldowns on anything except Smokescale's Takedown or Gazelle's Charge, you're doing it wrong. You can literally walk out of Gazelle's Head Toss before it goes off, unless you're CC'd/immobilized, but dodge the Child of Earth if you know the pet swap to Gazelle's cooldown is up. So if by "too many cooldowns" you mean a single dodge for both pets, then yeah, sure. Anything else is just a waste and you need to practice more against rangers if you're doing dumb stuff like dodging their auto attacks (instead of kiting the pet) and blowing defensives on skills that have deal 3k damage like SS's Smoke Assault.

1. - Mirror Matchup
2. - Punishing Maul
3. - Countering Longbow and Punishing Evade Frames
4. - Good example on how to avoid/bait out ranger skills whilst simultaneously keeping track of pet attacks in a winning 1v2.

I think I get memed maybe once a year against a oneshot WI Sic Em Soulbeast (they are basically perma dead vs. me regardless of class once I know what they're running). But people saying stuff like: rangers get carried by their pets, pets are tracing missiles, and I'm dying to the pets! are hilarious. I can't remember the last time I actually died to a Marksmanship Gazelle burst. It just doesn't happen to players once they know where the damage on ranger comes from (not even that hard to figure out). Which also happens to be the reason why rangers are literally nonexistent in more competitive settings. So when I hear, "So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions." ... yeah, by that definition, all of these people have L2P issues. With that being said, I've also suggested several nerfs to the class that actually address issues:

1. Lower the damage on Gazelle's Charge to 1.4k instead of 2k base.
2. Lower the % damage modifiers on Moment of Clarity and Attack of Opportunity to match Remorseless at 25% (instead of 50%)
3. Lower the block duration on GS4 to 2s.
4. Increase the cast time on Troll Unguent to 1s.
5. Remove Plasma from Siamoth.

But yeah. Those videos are a few examples on how to fight against rangers. Not very difficult.

I think there is some confirmation bias. People remember when the pet kills them. Not when the pet doesn't. As rangers we know it doesn't not happen too often.

1. They could even halve the damage on gazelle F2 and charge and it'd still be a good pet.If they go with the CC attacks shouldnt do big damage the f2 and its charge attack should have almost no damage as they are cc attacks. Just saying i hope they dont kill cc damage on almost every profession and forget this pets cc attacks. No other pets in rangers kit has cc attacks with the kind of damage Gazelle does

2. Moment of Clarity is fine. How often are rangers chaining interrupts into hard hitting pet skills?IF certain pets get damage reductions i can agree this wont be needed.

3. Shouldn't we fix the bug abuse on GS-4 before we nerf it more?

Gonna say nope just cause its currently better than a warrior shield block which im not sure it should be. I have to say ranger should not have the ranged pressure it gains from longbow or axe along side melee pressure and melee defense similar to that of warrior. Thats why people have issues with rangers cause they have the advantage at ranged so you rush them down and they are just as strong as warriors with gs in hand. This drives people to move away from them but doing that gives them long bow advantage again... Most people likely dont see a safe point to make the advantage because it's easy for rangers to deny that with just weapon / pet/ beast skills.

Most other ranged dps offensive builds dont allow for both very well either you are good with melee and weak at ranged or super strong at ranged and kinda weak in melee.

Just my thoughts tho

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Eurantien.4632 said:@shadowpass.4236

I'd add charge merge, hilt bash if you didn't.

And i would add dodge to mesmers

shows how much people know about mesmer.chaos vortex/barrage is mesmers ambush ( dodge )the fact that he decided to list F2 as a must dodge is another story, lol

[shadowpass.4236]

@Eurantien.4632 said:@shadowpass.4236

I'd add charge merge, hilt bash if you didn't.

And i would add dodge to mesmers

Eh Charge Merge isn't necessary to avoid. It's not a hard CC and it does 1k base damage on Demo + merged stats with a short 1s daze. I'm fine with that skill hitting me. Definitely wouldn't force a defensive cooldown out of me at least.

Yeah I already did. Chaos Vortex + Ether Barrage are both of the dodge Ambush skills on staff and scepter.

[Eurantien.4632]

Ah, my bad.

[Axl.8924]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Tycura.1982"

Eeeeh I dunno man. Rangers can do it, Deadeyes do same thing, FA Ele/Temp/Weaver does same thing, PP Thieves do same thing.

Deadeyes die if you managed to get in on them and out play their stealth or prevent them from entering stealth LoS works on them and they cant easily re position without using utility and there is no pet to harrass you out of the LoS hiding spot or a skill like long bow 5 that can slightly hit behind most LoS spots.

FA Ele dies immediately the moment you catch it and its escapes are very finite with a high enough cd that they cant run forever should you make the right play. LoS works on them too because of this.

PP Thief again dies immediately the moment you catch.

The moment ranger gets caught in melee range they can pop signet of stone or block then use smoke scale for stealth access etc or smoke assault for evades. Should any CC land they have at least 2 break stuns which will instantly get them out of a tight spot with lightning reflexes or protect me. Then you have the issue of the pet conventently ccing players with non command cc attacks (which happens far too often) Between all these things ranger by far at a mechanical advantage in terms of survivability even once some one gets in close on them and they have good melee pressure almost as good as warriors with the use of GS.

The other examples you named often dont also have good melee counter pressure especially not ele and thief

Players in GW2 just hate pew pew, end of story. Doesn't matter if it's OP or UP. People hate ranged attack mechanics in this game that go any further than about 600 range.

Its not a matter of hating pew pew its a matter of the fact that once some one gets in on a range class they expect it not to be a warrior lol.There is not other ranged profession in this game that has = strong melee pressure and melee defense in the same build as ranger thats why people dislike it. You add soul beast options like plasma usage for a super wide boon table or pets that can cc without command for 5k yes 5k without a critical hit btw and that makes it very hated.

So you have to consider the fact that either all these people have l2p issues or that its possible the profession in some aspects need reductions.

If socurge players had of said you just need to L2P when shades instantly roasted players with no tell no one would have agreed with that statement.So telling people to just LoS is similar to saying just dont stand on a shade back then when you had 2-3 scourge man teams and it was nearly impossible to avoid shades with almost no indicators for where they were going to pop up.

There is a difference in being skilled and just using a profession that is mechanically superior to others.Just because it can lose to a few niche things does not make it balanced. Thats more or less what people are trying to tell you.

Well the best or one of the best necros in pvp managed to kill sindrener 3 times in a match, so anything's possible.(refering to holtz)

Of course its possible for necro to win any match up just like its possible for warrior or ranger or any other profession but just because that does not make something balanced lol. I am a firm believer of the ideal that "anything is 'technically' possible" There could be a wide number of reasons why the profession with the advantage wins or the one with the disadvantage wins (how ever you want to put that). Sadly if you balance for the best only anyone below the best will see the game as being badly balanced if you balance for new players anyone with a decent number of hours will see it as badly balanced. ITs gotta be on the middle/high ground but not the top percentile. The majority of the games players are not top percentiles lol. Sadly being top player on x profession does not mean the be all end all of how something should / should not be balanced.

True i was pointing out that he got lucky got multiple kill shots.

Even if the best necro he still is at a massive disadvantage remember that herald? holy cow the mobility and damage of herald is nuts, whats worse is if you play vs the best thief(sindrener) its impossible to nearly impossible which is ridiculous). You should never be so hard countered that you have no chance. I think thief needs to lose something.

Necro has kind of be held back by its core ideals and thats kept it from getting too far out of hand "until scourge" but basically everything before scourge is not as crazy as what the others can do from a mechanical perspective. Even the biggest feature of reaper which was chill got culled down to the point that its not a real factor in most matchups. Anets idea is that it must be slow in mobility, damage, and potential ramp but at the same time its suppose to be slow to die because of shroud soaking damage. But when damage does 20k in a few seconds well... soaking does not come close to equalling what just damage evasion or blocking produces in sustain.

Even the minor changes like before HoT where chill stopped working on leaps and another gap closers that are not blinks etc hurt necros a good bit. that said i think having counters is fine but only if everyone has roughly the same number of counters and even then yes it shouldn't mean instant stomp.

IF something counters me to the point I didn't get the chance to retaliate or play i have issue with that. Aka being one shot from stealth for example regardless of who does it.

It will be interesting to see how things change.

Its why i think warrs and thiefs need to be nerfed along with most other classes. Seeing how herald played in that vid it was pretty insane ports with cc and dmg combined WOW.

Well to be fair necro has a few things it needs in reductions too but they are very niche things and or things that should have been done correctly the first time instead of just bandaid fixing much like the Reapers Onslaught buff that was just a hard bandaid to reapers slow attack speed problem. Rather than adjusting the cast times on base shroud to make the speed compeitive but not quickness level they just slapped quickness on RO and pigeon toed everyone into it. If we see less boons we will no doubt see some reductions too boon corrupts as well as skills that just do a lot of things in one use like scepter 3 that tool tip is pretty bloated an i wont be surprised if it gets some meaty reductions.

Warriors mostly need might synergy looked into and making some things more clear visually.Thief needs something i dont really know what to say though i know people complaint about pistol whip but i mean thief is almost like necro if something is strong / viable people will not like it. Thief unfortunately will always be a pain in the butt by their design of allowing them to use skills rapidly with no cd so i think no matter how they nerf them someone will aways find away to make them so annoying that people will always want them nerfed.

Sure As long as we get back since we have a lot of silly over hard counters that leave us in a unfun position, so if that can be improved that would be great, even if it means further nerfs to dmg for SPVP only with reaper so long as everyone else also gets nerf if they hit too hard, or boon corrupt if its a problem which melts folks too fast, but i'm guessing boons will also need huge nerfs too.

I know if boonspam gets huge nerfs and boon corrupt doesn't get at least a little hit, its going to be a problem.

I don't think there is too much to nerf for necro since a lot of stuff is already alright in terms of where it is comparitely maybe cept scourge which was just plain nerfed and in a odd place because it was nerfed improperly.