Nerf teleport or remove Battle of Kyhlo

[Luthan.5236]

The trebuchets should be removed. They belong to WvW. :P

[Sobx.1758]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"Lighter.5631" said:Playing classes without teleport in this map is like a dancing monkey in a cage specially when playing a melee one.

it's 2020 and teleport is still not accessible by all classes and it is still abused in maps and carrying undeserved wins, i admit i abuse these as well.stuff like these either needs to be

1. accessible by everyone for balance
2. maps need removed for balance
3. adds role limit, to limit the number of teleport per team for balance.

Mechanics like stealth/flash are broken mechanics and will never be balanced, which is why you should open access or heavy nerf and balance class on other terms.gw2 pvp has forever favored classes with blinks/stealth since release, a viable class with blinks/stealth will always be twice more valuable then a viable class without.

Stealth, Teleport, Blink never existed in origin Guild Wars.

This is GW2, if you want to play "origin guild wars", go play "origin guild wars".

No wonder why, they are Toxic-broken and will always be Toxic because Toxic mechanic like them absolutely have no place in the world of Guild Wars

Period!!

If anything's "toxic" here, it's you and your nauseating spam about mechanics you dislike being toxic "because you said so".

Period!!1

(also Please! remove pulling mechanic because it is kitten child-play-being thrown around like a yow-yow is very immature gameplay design)

:lol:

[Avatar.3568]

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:Playing classes without teleport in this map is like a dancing monkey in a cage specially when playing a melee one.

it's 2020 and teleport is still not accessible by all classes and it is still abused in maps and carrying undeserved wins, i admit i abuse these as well.stuff like these either needs to be

1. accessible by everyone for balance
2. maps need removed for balance
3. adds role limit, to limit the number of teleport per team for balance.

Mechanics like stealth/flash are broken mechanics and will never be balanced, which is why you should open access or heavy nerf and balance class on other terms.gw2 pvp has forever favored classes with blinks/stealth since release, a viable class with blinks/stealth will always be twice more valuable then a viable class without.

Stealth, Teleport, Blink never existed in origin Guild Wars. No wonder why, they are Toxic-broken and will always be Toxic because Toxic mechanic like them absolutely have no place in the world of Guild Wars

Period!!

(also Please! remove pulling mechanic because it is kitten child-play-being thrown around like a yow-yow is very immature gameplay design)

Gw2 has a complete different combat system than gw1, if you are unable to use skills or to walk or to dodge you should stay with gw1

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:Playing classes without teleport in this map is like a dancing monkey in a cage specially when playing a melee one.

it's 2020 and teleport is still not accessible by all classes and it is still abused in maps and carrying undeserved wins, i admit i abuse these as well.stuff like these either needs to be

1. accessible by everyone for balance
2. maps need removed for balance
3. adds role limit, to limit the number of teleport per team for balance.

Mechanics like stealth/flash are broken mechanics and will never be balanced, which is why you should open access or heavy nerf and balance class on other terms.gw2 pvp has forever favored classes with blinks/stealth since release, a viable class with blinks/stealth will always be twice more valuable then a viable class without.

Stealth, Teleport, Blink never existed in origin Guild Wars. No wonder why, they are Toxic-broken and will always be Toxic because Toxic mechanic like them absolutely have no place in the world of Guild Wars

Period!!

(also Please! remove pulling mechanic because it is kitten child-play-being thrown around like a yow-yow is very immature gameplay design)

Gw2 has a complete different combat system than gw1, if you are unable to use skills or to walk or to dodge you should stay with gw1

Well and the only thing that GW1 hasn't go was stealth (i think) but assassin got sooooo many different ports (or blink) That didn't make that class OP tho.

[lare.5129]

At firts so you not proper understand word 'balance'. Balance is NOT equal skill and equal chance to win. It is only some changes in rotation and traits.If you think that some class not yours is op - play it, Not want? - lose, lose and lose again. Take is as destiny OR try play better.

This is part of mmo where exist 3+ types of players. This is also mmo, so one of types players start play only if that have dominate class, and that need that versus. We need give them teleport, super damage, condi spam or some "magic button kill all".

Other play take what want and play how they want. And thanks to GW2 strategy that also have place near sun..

And more rare challenged take worst class, and try do fantastic gameplay. And VERY rare part of them get it!!

Choose you side and get pleasure!

[ElderNewt.5840]

Warrior has a ton of Hard CC - all classes should have hard CC or warrior should lose most of them for balanceNecro has fear - same as aboveetc etc.

Each class as a certain skill more than others. It's how it is. So some classes have an extra benefit on a certain map.. Each class does.Ranger Longbow has Eternal Coliseum for it's full range ability for example.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@HardRider.2980 said:Warrior has a ton of Hard CC - all classes should have hard CC or warrior should lose most of them for balanceNecro has fear - same as aboveetc etc.

Each class as a certain skill more than others. It's how it is. So some classes have an extra benefit on a certain map.. Each class does.Ranger Longbow has Eternal Coliseum for it's full range ability for example.

Without a ton of hard cc warrior would need a full rework as of right now it is very basic and predictable playstyle which most warrior archetypes are and needs to hard cc their opponent to reliably land literally every kind of bursts they have. The game has changed to a point where damage on classes are so high even warrior of all classes has to employ the kite,hard cc and burst. If that fails it has to kite and avoid damage until it can try another hard cc and burst again. Even a might/healing farting build running paly rune gets burst in seconds if it doesn't properly avoid damage thru evades and kiting.

[Eugchriss.2046]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@HardRider.2980 said:Warrior has a ton of Hard CC - all classes should have hard CC or warrior should lose most of them for balanceNecro has fear - same as aboveetc etc.

Each class as a certain skill more than others. It's how it is. So some classes have an extra benefit on a certain map.. Each class does.Ranger Longbow has Eternal Coliseum for it's full range ability for example.

Without a ton of hard cc warrior would need a full rework as of right now it is very basic and predictable playstyle which most warrior archetypes are and needs to hard cc their opponent to reliably land literally every kind of bursts they have. The game has changed to a point where damage on classes are so high even warrior of all classes has to employ the kite,hard cc and burst. If that fails it has to kite and avoid damage until it can try another hard cc and burst again. Even a might/healing farting build running paly rune gets burst in seconds if it doesn't properly avoid damage thru evades and kiting.

That wasn't really the point...

[ElderNewt.5840]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@HardRider.2980 said:Warrior has a ton of Hard CC - all classes should have hard CC or warrior should lose most of them for balanceNecro has fear - same as aboveetc etc.

Each class as a certain skill more than others. It's how it is. So some classes have an extra benefit on a certain map.. Each class does.Ranger Longbow has Eternal Coliseum for it's full range ability for example.

Without a ton of hard cc warrior would need a full rework as of right now it is very basic and predictable playstyle which most warrior archetypes are and needs to hard cc their opponent to reliably land literally every kind of bursts they have. The game has changed to a point where damage on classes are so high even warrior of all classes has to employ the kite,hard cc and burst. If that fails it has to kite and avoid damage until it can try another hard cc and burst again. Even a might/healing farting build running paly rune gets burst in seconds if it doesn't properly avoid damage thru evades and kiting.

The part about warrior, necro was saracasm in response to original post.The last part was supporting the need for unique things for some classes like teleports

[Lighter.5631]

@HardRider.2980 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@HardRider.2980 said:Warrior has a ton of Hard CC - all classes should have hard CC or warrior should lose most of them for balanceNecro has fear - same as aboveetc etc.

Each class as a certain skill more than others. It's how it is. So some classes have an extra benefit on a certain map.. Each class does.Ranger Longbow has Eternal Coliseum for it's full range ability for example.

Without a ton of hard cc warrior would need a full rework as of right now it is very basic and predictable playstyle which most warrior archetypes are and needs to hard cc their opponent to reliably land literally every kind of bursts they have. The game has changed to a point where damage on classes are so high even warrior of all classes has to employ the kite,hard cc and burst. If that fails it has to kite and avoid damage until it can try another hard cc and burst again. Even a might/healing farting build running paly rune gets burst in seconds if it doesn't properly avoid damage thru evades and kiting.

The part about warrior, necro was saracasm in response to original post.The last part was supporting the need for unique things for some classes like teleports

You do realize all your of "sarcasm" is the byproduct of something like a certain broken unique mechanics arent shared by all classes.If you want to balance around teleport/stealth being unique either it needs to be heavily limited or classes without these unique mechanics needs to be way stronger in fights, yet you will never admit this being balance, because most of your opinion are simply biased, you want these mechanics being unique yet you also want classes being equally good in fights, but this is not balance.

[Nerah.8235]

Speaking as a player that mains a class with no real movement ability: I say nerf the teleports, shadowsteps, and leaps. However, I think that the nerf should be rework of all of these abilities so that they are fully affected by soft CC: cripple, slow, immobilize, and most especially chill. Remember that several classes were constructed with the idea of soft conditions dictating/limiting enemy movements. This change would make these slow classes MUCH more viable, and would make hit and runs by faster classes much riskier.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Lighter.5631 said:Playing classes without teleport in this map is like a dancing monkey in a cage specially when playing a melee one.

it's 2020 and teleport is still not accessible by all classes and it is still abused in maps and carrying undeserved wins, i admit i abuse these as well.stuff like these either needs to be

1. accessible by everyone for balance
2. maps need removed for balance
3. adds role limit, to limit the number of teleport per team for balance.

Mechanics like stealth/flash are broken mechanics and will never be balanced, which is why you should open access or heavy nerf and balance class on other terms.gw2 pvp has forever favored classes with blinks/stealth since release, a viable class with blinks/stealth will always be twice more valuable then a viable class without.

What is it with people asking for entire mechanics/maps to be changed when they can just class swap or alter their build to be a sidenoder and avoid mid altogether?Can we stop doing that and adapt? If this is enough of a problem for you that it deserves a forum post, set a build template for sidenoding on Kylho and be done with it instead of demanding the game be twisted around your preferences.

@Nerah.8235 said:Speaking as a player that mains a class with no real movement ability: I say nerf the teleports, shadowsteps, and leaps.

Or we could make your class faster/give you sidenoding/fendoff potential?While I understand your frustration you -did- make the decision to commit to maining a slow class. The only thing that should be afforded to you is the ability to fend off/secure kills on faster ones instead of being hard countered by them/doomed to lose.

[Bazsi.2734]

@"Nerah.8235" said:Speaking as a player that mains a class with no real movement ability: I say nerf the teleports, shadowsteps, and leaps. However, I think that the nerf should be rework of all of these abilities so that they are fully affected by soft CC: cripple, slow, immobilize, and most especially chill. Remember that several classes were constructed with the idea of soft conditions dictating/limiting enemy movements. This change would make these slow classes MUCH more viable, and would make hit and runs by faster classes much riskier.

LoL. "Speaking as something that's not mobile, I want everyone else to not be mobile". Those classes cannot trade blows in a fight of attrition, thats why they have mobility instead. If you take their mobility away, you need to give them the ability to facetank your pressure. Which I assume you don't want... after all a thief is meant to be squishy right?You can argue to nerf build A or build B, because they overperform in a role, but you cannot just ask "lets nerf mobility in general", that will never ever happen.

[Nerah.8235]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Nerah.8235" said:Or we could make your class faster/give you sidenoding/fendoff potential?While I understand your frustration you -did- make the decision to commit to maining a slow class. The only thing that should be afforded to you is the ability to fend off/secure kills on faster ones instead of being hard countered by them/doomed to lose.

Nah, I made the mistake of picking a class that sounded like fun to play, and the further mistake of assuming that it would have a fair shot in a PvP mode: that is "on me". Turns out, ANET decided they didn't need need mobility for "reasons": "purity of purpose", "feel", etc. I wasn't consulted. ANET will never grant this class (or any class in the same boat) more mobility. Historically, I can find no examples of this behavior. They could, however, adhere to the original design goal, which would be nice, and likely would work. As a bonus, it should require almost zero effort, since you would be giving the affected conditions "simpler" behavior, with fewer exceptions.

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@"Nerah.8235" said:LoL. "Speaking as something that's not mobile, I want everyone else to not be mobile". Those classes cannot trade blows in a fight of attrition, thats why they have mobility instead. If you take their mobility away, you need to give them the ability to facetank your pressure. Which I assume you don't want... after all a thief is meant to be squishy right?You can argue to nerf build A or build B, because they overperform in a role, but you cannot just ask "lets nerf mobility in general", that will never ever happen.What do you mean by squishy? If you are in an evade frame or simply "not there", you take zero damage, even if you would have normally taken 1,000,000 HP in damage: there literally is no better armor than mobility. Thief types are one of the only professions that can theoretically fight groups of enemy players and not die, while slowly focussing less mobile classes down one-by-one. While a bit off topic, in WvW, I have personally seen thieves survive extended fights with up to 20 enemy players. It is simply incredible to watch. That is a lot of things, but is not "squishy". The really good thieves I have seen in PvP almost never take hits due to a combination of positioning and evade frames, so effectively have "infinite" HP if played to maximum effect. That is not squishy.

Also, I think it is feasible to simply nerf mobility. Think about it. If a specific case is nerfed (thief), the mobility problem just jumps to whatever case has the next best mobility, because mobility in this game as it is currently implemented is simply too powerful a force multiplier. It increases BOTH offensive power (choosing where and when to fight, being able to hit and run) and defensive abilities (being able to dodge close threats, reposition instantly to avoid hits, or simply flee if things go south). Mobility needs to be a good option, but NOT the most powerful one. ANETs problem is that, up to now, they allow a few incredibly (mechanically) powerful abilities to exist, but spread them very unevenly across classes for ultimately "thematic" reasons. In PvE, this is somewhat dissapointing, but in PvP modes, it strips the agency from the guy on the other side of the dagger, and makes the whole mode suck. ANET tried to "balance" this disparity with the conquest "win" mechanic chicanery, although a lot of people just play "death-match" at this point in the game's life and just go for thrills and kills. If you have ever had a good thief player decide to farm you, then the whole facade crumbles and becomes a huge suck experience, and you realize you never had a chance.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"Nerah.8235" said:What do you mean by squishy? If you are in an evade frame or simply "not there", you take zero damage, even if you would have normally taken 1,000,000 HP in damage: there literally is no better armor than mobility. Thief types are one of the only professions that can theoretically fight groups of enemy players and not die, while slowly focussing less mobile classes down one-by-one. While a bit off topic, in WvW, I have personally seen thieves survive extended fights with up to 20 enemy players. It is simply incredible to watch. That is a lot of things, but is not "squishy". The really good thieves I have seen in PvP almost never take hits due to a combination of positioning and evade frames, so effectively have "infinite" HP if played to maximum effect. That is not squishy.

Also, I think it is feasible to simply nerf mobility. Think about it. If a specific case is nerfed (thief), the mobility problem just jumps to whatever case has the next best mobility, because mobility in this game as it is currently implemented is simply too powerful a force multiplier. It increases BOTH offensive power (choosing where and when to fight, being able to hit and run) and defensive abilities (being able to dodge close threats, reposition instantly to avoid hits, or simply flee if things go south). Mobility needs to be a good option, but NOT the most powerful one. ANETs problem is that, up to now, they allow a few incredibly (mechanically) powerful abilities to exist, but spread them very unevenly across classes for ultimately "thematic" reasons. In PvE, this is somewhat dissapointing, but in PvP modes, it strips the agency from the guy on the other side of the dagger, and makes the whole mode suck. ANET tried to "balance" this disparity with the conquest "win" mechanic chicanery, although a lot of people just play "death-match" at this point in the game's life and just go for thrills and kills. If you have ever had a good thief player decide to farm you, then the whole facade crumbles and becomes a huge suck experience, and you realize you never had a chance.

So, while I disagree with your "effectively infinite HP" definition, I can definitely agree that Necro(And other low mob class build) MU vs thief sucks hard. I don't think removing the mobility on thief is the answer though, because then they're just going to be forced to hug the low mob classes and the brittleness of their HP pool is going to be made evident fast.

I understand your problem, but I've had a bunch of close games vs other classes on a mobile thief, so I think the easier route would be to give the ones that struggle more thorns to make fending thieves off (and downing those that make poor judgement calls) possible.

[Axl.8924]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@HardRider.2980 said:Warrior has a ton of Hard CC - all classes should have hard CC or warrior should lose most of them for balanceNecro has fear - same as aboveetc etc.

Each class as a certain skill more than others. It's how it is. So some classes have an extra benefit on a certain map.. Each class does.Ranger Longbow has Eternal Coliseum for it's full range ability for example.

Without a ton of hard cc warrior would need a full rework as of right now it is very basic and predictable playstyle which most warrior archetypes are and needs to hard cc their opponent to reliably land literally every kind of bursts they have. The game has changed to a point where damage on classes are so high even warrior of all classes has to employ the kite,hard cc and burst. If that fails it has to kite and avoid damage until it can try another hard cc and burst again. Even a might/healing farting build running paly rune gets burst in seconds if it doesn't properly avoid damage thru evades and kiting.

Same goes for necro too actually, it depends on cc and other stuff to avoid dmg.

[Knighthonor.4061]

Hey OP, I don't play any of the classes that Stealth or Portal. So I ask this. What method would you go about Nerfing this without breaking certain classes that have these skills and traits heavyly built into them.

In GW2 the only non combat skills are mounting up. So not sure how a system would be made that makes certain class skills "Combat locked" and stuff like that.

But I guess you can make Stealth on skills require out of combat status I guess, to actually Stealth, and will perform something else while in combat.

[Bazsi.2734]

@Nerah.8235 said:

@Bazsi.2734 said:

@Nerah.8235 said:LoL. "Speaking as something that's not mobile, I want everyone else to not be mobile". Those classes cannot trade blows in a fight of attrition, thats why they have mobility instead. If you take their mobility away, you need to give them the ability to facetank your pressure. Which I assume you don't want... after all a thief is meant to be squishy right?You can argue to nerf build A or build B, because they overperform in a role, but you cannot just ask "lets nerf mobility in general", that will never ever happen.What do you mean by squishy? If you are in an evade frame or simply "not there", you take zero damage, even if you would have normally taken 1,000,000 HP in damage: there literally is no better armor than mobility. Thief types are one of the only professions that can theoretically fight groups of enemy players and not die, while slowly focussing less mobile classes down one-by-one. While a bit off topic, in WvW, I have personally seen thieves survive extended fights with up to 20 enemy players. It is simply incredible to watch. That is a lot of things, but is not "squishy". The really good thieves I have seen in PvP almost never take hits due to a combination of positioning and evade frames, so effectively have "infinite" HP if played to maximum effect. That is not squishy.

Also, I think it is feasible to simply nerf mobility. Think about it. If a specific case is nerfed (thief), the mobility problem just jumps to whatever case has the next best mobility, because mobility in this game as it is currently implemented is simply too powerful a force multiplier. It increases BOTH offensive power (choosing where and when to fight, being able to hit and run) and defensive abilities (being able to dodge close threats, reposition instantly to avoid hits, or simply flee if things go south). Mobility needs to be a good option, but NOT the most powerful one. ANETs problem is that, up to now, they allow a few incredibly (mechanically) powerful abilities to exist, but spread them very unevenly across classes for ultimately "thematic" reasons. In PvE, this is somewhat dissapointing, but in PvP modes, it strips the agency from the guy on the other side of the dagger, and makes the whole mode suck. ANET tried to "balance" this disparity with the conquest "win" mechanic chicanery, although a lot of people just play "death-match" at this point in the game's life and just go for thrills and kills. If you have ever had a good thief player decide to farm you, then the whole facade crumbles and becomes a huge suck experience, and you realize you never had a chance.

Squishy means dying after takes 2 hits. Thats all it means, the rest of the toolkit and the players skill is irrelevant. A squishy thing can only survive on the long run by not getting hit.

By the way I cannot agree with your point because one of the latest funbuilds I roll in unranked is juke reaper. It's really mobile with boosted permaswiftness, 2 teleports, and has insane AoE oneshot potential, you can end entire teamfights in seconds. Also dies in like 3 hits, so it's basicly a thief build. Which means even the "least" mobile profession can be adjusted to the hit and run playstyle. And it's crazy fun.

So basicly every class can choose to be mobile/bursty at the cost of being squishy. However, some classes HAVE TO. Thief and revenant especially don't have alternatives to compete in this meta. Even if you want to nerf mobility tools (port/leaps whatevers) across the board, some classes simply dont need these, while others depends on them more and more. It would just greatly screw up balance without an entire rewamp of the game. And would also make people like me quit the game. I like porting around like a spaz, especially dueling with someone who can do the same. Slowly crawling around the battlefield, while spamming our AoE-s on the enemy is for scourge mains in WvW.

[Lighter.5631]

@"Knighthonor.4061" said:Hey OP, I don't play any of the classes that Stealth or Portal. So I ask this. What method would you go about Nerfing this without breaking certain classes that have these skills and traits heavyly built into them.

In GW2 the only non combat skills are mounting up. So not sure how a system would be made that makes certain class skills "Combat locked" and stuff like that.

But I guess you can make Stealth on skills require out of combat status I guess, to actually Stealth, and will perform something else while in combat.

exactly, because there's no way to balance with heavily nerfing certain mechanics because some classes are heavily bond to them. that's why i suggested map balancing or open access, instead of heavily shaving these broken mechanics...

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

What is it with people asking for entire mechanics/maps to be changed when they can just class swap or alter their build to be a sidenoder and avoid mid altogether?Can we stop doing that and adapt? If this is enough of a problem for you that it deserves a forum post, set a build template for sidenoding on Kylho and be done with it instead of demanding the game be twisted around your preferences.

Because i care about balance and that wouldn't work, because you are slow and you only takes home/far, it's literally suicide, an easy plus by enemy mes/thief/rev on far and you will be snowballing.

[Nerah.8235]

Squishy means dying after takes 2 hits. Thats all it means, the rest of the toolkit and the players skill is irrelevant. A squishy thing can only survive on the long run by not getting hit.

That is any class. Thief (squishy?)=dead in 2 hits; Reaper (tank?)=dead in 3 hits. The time difference between 2 and 3 hits=typically .25-.5 seconds (best case). So every class is squishy in that sense.

By the way I cannot agree with your point because one of the latest funbuilds I roll in unranked is juke reaper. It's really mobile with boosted permaswiftness, 2 teleports, and has insane AoE oneshot potential, you can end entire teamfights in seconds. Also dies in like 3 hits, so it's basicly a thief build. Which means even the "least" mobile profession can be adjusted to the hit and run playstyle. And it's crazy fun.

Yes, you can play this type of Reaper build, which can be generically called "boonreaper". The problem there is that every somewhat viable PvP build (including this one) MUST run both Wurm and Walk. So, 2 of 3 utility slots must be used for movement skills, otherwise you are very easy to kite/predict. That's what I am talking about, though. Movement is SO VALUABLE in PvP that the [so-so] viable builds for a "slow" class must include both movement skills over everything else to be playable. If movement were less powerful, other options could be considered. You could argue that the weapon skills should probably have some type of movement skills attached to them, but ANET will never do that due to aforementioned "purity of purpose". However, they do actually nerf things, so nerfing movement somewhat is still an option. I maintain that it would actually be good for the game, and in-line with the original game design.