Guardian Hammer is useless

[Hogwarts Zebra.8597]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

There isn't an honest discussion with someone that just invents things I say that I didn't anyways. You're refusal to acknowledge that the hammer is useful to players that choose to play it WHEREVER they choose for WHATEVER reason they choose to do so is evidence enough that you aren't willing to engage in a discussion in the first place. If you can't bring yourself to acknowledge the use of the hammer by the people that choose to use it, you aren't a good advocate of changing the hammer in the first place. 

As expected, 0 evidence once again. We're done here. 

[Obtena.7952]

50 minutes ago, Hogwarts Zebra.8597 said:

As expected, 0 evidence once again. We're done here. 

You might be done. I don't think the point is clear yet. I get you think your ready to have a 'go' at me because you don't like what I'm saying ... but that's not a reason to start acting out here. 

 

I don't need to provide you evidence of whatever you are asking just so you can invent things I say to 'prove' hammer is useless. The fact that people choose to use hammer proves hammer has a use for those people. You don't see hammer being used endgame? That's a REALLY limited subset of use conditions you've cherrypicked to prove it's useless. 

 

But since you came late to the party, you missed some thread content. These notions of 'useless' have already been refuted and to quote myself from earlier:

 

This game isn't designed so that everything is useful to every player for whatever specific game mode they want to use those things. Therefore, hammer being useless to you isn't a problem that needs to be fixed.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Tulkas.2576]

I love hammer and use it lots in WvW, mostly for knocking people off cliffs and such, but whenever I switch back to GS I start winning way more 1vXs and generally performing way better. 
I have it a good shot in pvp too, and it’s lots of fun to be sure, but kitten, GS does everything better and more easily. 
Changes I’d like to see:

- A faster AA

- Hammer 2 is good, perhaps a slightly longer range, or maybe glacial blow could be baseline would be nice but it’s pretty good as is. 

- Hammer 3 needs to be way more reliable. It should either be wider, faster, or unable to be reflected. The amount of times it buries itself in terrain drives me crazy. 
-Hammer 4 needs similar treatment to hammer 3. It needs a way bigger hit box. 
-Hammer 5 again needs to be bigger or faster, or it needs to block projectiles, or give a healing or stability or something.  Basically just needs something else, it’s a long cool down and very easy for people who know what it is to avoid or work around.  
 

overall though, I do use it and I have fun with it, but I recognize that I’m taking a serious performance decrease when i equip it. 

[Ratnoon.4251]

4 hours ago, Tulkas.2576 said:

I love hammer and use it lots in WvW, mostly for knocking people off cliffs and such, but whenever I switch back to GS I start winning way more 1vXs and generally performing way better. 
I have it a good shot in pvp too, and it’s lots of fun to be sure, but kitten, GS does everything better and more easily. 
Changes I’d like to see:

- A faster AA

- Hammer 2 is good, perhaps a slightly longer range, or maybe glacial blow could be baseline would be nice but it’s pretty good as is. 

- Hammer 3 needs to be way more reliable. It should either be wider, faster, or unable to be reflected. The amount of times it buries itself in terrain drives me crazy. 
-Hammer 4 needs similar treatment to hammer 3. It needs a way bigger hit box. 
-Hammer 5 again needs to be bigger or faster, or it needs to block projectiles, or give a healing or stability or something.  Basically just needs something else, it’s a long cool down and very easy for people who know what it is to avoid or work around.  
 

overall though, I do use it and I have fun with it, but I recognize that I’m taking a serious performance decrease when i equip it. 

Pretty nice 👍🏻 

Edited August 7, 2021 by Tuen.5641

[anbujackson.9564]

You think hammer on guardian is useless? 

 

What is hammer on warrior then?

 

I agree though, that the AA-chain is suboptimal. Your symbol on the last attack is pretty meh.

Edited August 7, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[hash.8462]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

You think hammer on guardian is useless? 

 

What is hammer on warrior then?

 

I agree though, that the AA-chain is suboptimal. Your symbol on the last attack is pretty meh.

On skill chains the last attack is always the strongest one to discourage forced chain interruptions, this is so in all games.

(by the way, hammer on warrior is one of the worst weapons of the game)

---

From my PoV, Hammer AA chain is not a bad thing, is something that give a unique feel to the weapon.

I think the main problem of hammer are traits, hammer dps is heavily dependant on the symbol and to optimize it you need to get both Zeal and Honor traitlines; Writ of Persistence rise by 28% the dps of your full AA chain (3->5 pulses, add radius and heal to the symbol), but the problem is that Honor is a support traitline so you are forced to be a combat/healer because the standard GS traitline combos (for example Zeal/Rad/DH) don't work well for hammer.

Also, since your AA is slow you also feel forced to use Firebrand (to have a better access to quickness).

I think that at the moment Zeal/Honor/Firebrand is the only decent way to optimize an Hammer build, no real dps build is aviable so you are stuck to be an hybrid.

Now, I personally like this hybrid gameplay and can be used from solo play (also to solo Bounties and HoT HP like Balthazar) up to Fractals/Strikes, and WvW frontline; but of course this will never be meta.

Edited August 7, 2021 by hash.8462

[Arken.3725]

As the God of Guardians(spvp), I'll just say that Hammer hasn't been utilized since before HoT.  It's arguably one of the worst weapons in spvp.

[GoingMenthol.7281]

The problem with hammer is that it's designed to be a defensive weapon that keeps people away from you. This sounds weird but bear with me for a moment:

 

Keeping distance

Hammer 3 Immobilises targets at 1200 range, but your only movement skill (hammer 2) just reaches 300. You cannot properly chase after your target at range, only keep them stationary for a moment

Hammer 4 knocks your target away by 750 range, again you cannot reach someone at a far distance as hammer 2 is too short. Sending your target away is the priority, following up with damage is not

Hammer 5 is the only ward you cannot use at range. You can only snare your target if they're already near you.... Or it's designed to stop targets from getting close to you

 

In comparison to other melee weapons

- Greatsword in comparison has a 600 range pull (GS 5) and also a 600 range leap to chase after targets that don't get pulled. You have the ability to pull and the option to chase

- It's also the "jack of all trades" weapon as you can gain might, blind, heal, cc, gain resolution and light auras from leaps

- Axe doesn't have any movement skills so it has a 600 range pull instead. You don't have the ability to chase but have the ability to pull to keep doing damage

- With the trait, Axe/Shield is better for CC than hammer (Hammer 5 is useless on a non-moving target)

- Sword has a 600 range teleport but can also attack from a 600 range too (sword 3). You can teleport to fight in melee but you can still hit at range as a backup

- You also have active defences from projectile block and blind to avoid getting hit

- Mace has no movement skills but is built around block/boons/heals to compensate (can also fully charge Justice too)

- You cannot chase after your target, but you can still actively defend and heal yourself where you stand (unlike hammer)

 

(This part is my janky ideas section, feel free to hate it or ignore it)

These ideas below are for making a conversation on how hammer could be redesigned and is not something definitive. Using Guild Wars 1 skill names as titles for the fun of it

 

Aura of Faith

Symbol of Protection is no longer a light field, becomes an ice field

Hammer 2 blasts can be used for frost aura (from auto attack ice field) or condition cleanse (from Hammer 5 light field)

- Defensive weapon, user provides protection and frost aura to team against strike damage, or condition cleanse when needed

- Can work with Radiance skill tree for an aura build?

 

Onslaught

Hammer 2 gives 1 second of quickness for each target hit

- Reduces the feeling of being shoehorned into firebrand for quickness

Hammer 3 is no longer a projectile, you now run towards your target and immobilize on hit

Hammer 5 is now a 600 range leap, launches targets on landing but ward keeps them in place

- Launch inside would help against non-moving targets, would ensure that hammer is the best cc weapon

 

Angelic Bond

Hammer 5 is a 600 range leap, heals and revives allies inside

Hammer 4 is now a projectile reflect

Hammer 3 gives Aegis to allies it passes

- Oriented around the Honor skill tree for heals

 

Avatar of Balthazaar

Symbol of Protection pulses protection and burning

Glacial Heart gives 240 Vitality if wielding a hammer

- Virtues trait line is about boons and condition damage, other weapons have traits that give additional stats (greatsword -> 240 power, 1 hand -> 80 power 80 precision, mace -> outgoing healing)

 

Test of Faith

Hammer 2 removes 1 boon from yourself. If a boon is removed, chill nearby foes. If no boons are removed, Hammer 2 is the same as before

Hammer 3 - When a target is hit, remove 1 boon from yourself. If a boon is removed, knockdown target for 1 second. If no boons are removed, immobilize target. Hits 5 targets

- Recreate a dervish teardown style of gameplay

- Gain boons from auto attack or virtues, teardown boons for extra actions

 

Life Sheath

Glacial Heart - You gain frost aura when you cleanse a condition on yourself. Allies you remove conditions from gain frost aura at a reduced duration. Auras you apply heal when they end

- hammer already is made to blast into light fields (AoE condi cleanse)

 

Holy Haste

Hammer 5 pulses quickness, foes can enter the ward but cannot escape

Hammer 3 pulls foes, 600 range

 

"Incoming!"

Hammer 2 is now 600 range

Hammer 3 is 900 range, you and allies gain swiftness and resistance for 1 second for each foe hit

- Staff has swiftness but it wouldn't be the first time two weapons gained the same boon (Axe and Sword symbols)

 

Shield of Judgement

Hammer 5 now applies an effect to allies within the ward: For 5 seconds, the next time you are hit by an enemy, that enemy is dazed for 1/4 seconds

Hammer 3 will apply Taunt instead of Immobilize

- This makes Hammer 3 work with Glacial Heart

 

Reaper's Sweep

Hammer 3 inflicts Taunt

Hammer 5 is larger and pulls enemies towards the centre when cast. Applies pulsing 1 second weakness

Glacial Heart - When wielding a hammer, if you hit a target with 3 or more conditions, you apply AoE chill and daze (cooldown 20 seconds). Condition duration is increased when wielding a hammer

- This design involves applying Zeal and Virtues Trait lines for extra conditions

-- Hammer 1 - Vulnerability from Zeal

-- Hammer 2 - Chill From Virtues

-- Hammer 3 - Taunt

-- Hammer 5 - Weakness

-- Burning applied from Justice activation

- Hammer gains defence by weakening the opponent with conditions

 

Isaiah's Balance

Hammer 2 is 900 range, increased cast time to 1.5 seconds and higher arc in leap makes user stay in the air (similar to Phase Smash so it's easy to notice). AoE Daze for 1/4 second, 12 second cooldown

Hammer 3 is 1200 range with a 300 range pull

Hammer 4  now hits 3 targets. for each enemy hit, reduce recharge of Hammer 2 by 1 second

Glacial Heart is replaced with Isaiah's Balance: If enemy is interrupted when using a skill, that skill has an increased cooldown of 2 seconds. Hammer skills have a 50% chance to inflict AoE slow and chill (cooldown 10 seconds)

- Create an alternative to Mesmer Domination style of interrupt enemies, Mesmer can interrupt from any range, Guardian relies more on melee range

 

Weapons of Three Forges

Hammer 2 reduces the cooldown of virtues by 1 second for every enemy hit

Glacial Heart is replaced with Weapons of Three Forges: When wielding a hammer, activating a virtue now creates a field based on the virtue used (Justice now applies a fire field for 4 seconds / Resolve now applies a water field for 4 seconds / Courage applies an ice field for 4 seconds)

- Ice field would give frost aura (10% damage reduction), the only blast finisher that would be closest to Aegis or Protection

 

Life Barrier

Hammer 2 has reduced damage, applies barrier to allies, 600 range

Hammer 3 inflicts chill and transfers conditions on yourself to all targets hit

Hammer 4 hits 3 targets, reduces cooldown of Hammer 2 by 50% if it hits

Hammer 5 has 600 range, pushes enemies out of ward, pulse heals allies inside

Glacial Heart now combined with Protector's Restoration - Hammer skills have a 20% chance to chill enemies for 1 second, gain barrier on chilling enemies. Cast Lesser Symbol of Protection when using a heal skill

- Can have synergy with runes that apply chill that aren't often used to make new builds

Edited August 13, 2021 by GoingMenthol.7281
Added more ideas

[Faridah.8431]

I liked playing a hammer sometimes on core guardian, but this was like pre-HOT days we're talking about here. There's no way I'd take a hammer over any number of choices now.

[GoingMenthol.7281]

Hammer was fun back in the day as it was useful for the blast finisher in WvW, and a nice way to throw people away in PvP, but over time all the weapons found their roles by being good in their specific role, or were updated to have their own new uses. Why would a guardian use hammer for blast finishers in WvW when you can use a staff that has AoE might, swiftness, heals, and a blast finisher?

 

Hammer on the other hand never found that. I'm sure someone already mentioned this but Zeal is the power trait line and buffs up symbols (which hammer needs), but hammer really needs Writ of Persistence along side Zeal to increase damage output, which is in the Honor trait line, which is for healing. There's no weapon skills on hammer that heal you, however greatsword 3 can heal on hit and the greatsword itself can be used for both power and condition builds (I use greatsword for a condition build in WvW and its fast hits make it shockingly good at applying PBAoE burns)

 

If anything, Glacial Heart should be removed from Virtues and either:

- Hammer is reworked as a more defensive weapon (auras/barrier/something that mace doesn't already provide) and Glacial Heart is reworked to fit in the Honor trait line (maybe even combined with Writ of Persistence?)

- Hammer is reworked as a more aggressive weapon (apply weakness, taunt, chill, blind, conditions that don't do damage but use condition duration) and Glacial Heart is reworked to fit in the Zeal trait line (Maybe replace Furious Focus? We already inflict Vulnerability with Symbolic Exposure)

 

The only reason to keep Glacial Heart in Virtues is if there's any interaction with the Virtues, with boons, or with condition damage. It currently does none of that. And other weapon traits give extra stats or other useful improvements that Glacial Blow doesn't give. It's actually a dps loss in favour of a higher single hit. This basically shoehorns hammer into being only used with Judge's Intervention

[GoingMenthol.7281]

On 8/10/2021 at 6:12 PM, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

- Mace has no movement skills but is built around block/boons/heals to compensate (can also fully charge Justice too)

- You cannot chase after your target, but you can still actively defend and heal yourself where you stand (unlike hammer)

 

I MAY HAVE BEEN WRONG

Rushing Justice (F1) is a 450 range Willbender gap closer. Mace 3 (Protector's Strike) fully recharges the passive of Justice. Willbender doesn't have passives on virtues any more...

 

Mace 3 may end up fully restoring Justice with active use, making it a movement weapon of sorts by using your F1 more often than other weapons

(not to mention that off-hand sword also allows mace to have manoeuvrability)

 

-----

  

On 8/10/2021 at 6:12 PM, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

The problem with hammer is that it's designed to be a defensive weapon that keeps people away from you. This sounds weird but bear with me for a moment:

 

Having a look at Willbender, it feels like it was made to undo this specific problem. Hammer launches your opponent away but you can chase after with Flash Combo and Rushing Justice

 

It doesn't make the weapon stand out in comparison to others or that there's anything I can immediately notice that hammer would really like, maybe it's even less relevant because you can have all the CC you'd ever need on your elite and utility skills? What's the point of Glacial Heart to chill your enemies for 2 seconds on CC when they're either stuck on the floor for 4 seconds or dazed for 3 seconds?

 

I don't know, I feel like there's something I'm missing here. There might be a really good hammer build with Virtues and Willbender, but the Gradmaster traits in Virtues are about passives that Willbender won't have. It also makes you choose between Zeal or Honor when they're both needed for hammer dps. If Writ of Persistence (a trait about symbols, symbols always give boons, virtues trait line is about boons) was combined with Glacial Heart (hammer trait, hammer auto is a symbol) then it would make sense?

Edited August 14, 2021 by GoingMenthol.7281
formatting and more ideas

[hash.8462]

On 8/10/2021 at 7:12 PM, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

- Mace has no movement skills but is built around block/boons/heals to compensate (can also fully charge Justice too)

- You cannot chase after your target, but you can still actively defend and heal yourself where you stand (unlike hammer)

 

On 8/14/2021 at 10:08 AM, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

I MAY HAVE BEEN WRONG

Rushing Justice (F1) is a 450 range Willbender gap closer. Mace 3 (Protector's Strike) fully recharges the passive of Justice. Willbender doesn't have passives on virtues any more...

 

Renewed Justice (Radiance) can reset the active, but mace cannot.

Willbender: The passive* is there but tied to giving stacks of incremental damage from Lethal Tempo (last minor):

"Each time you activate a virtue or your virtue's passive* is triggered gain a damage bonus. Gaining stacks of this boon refreshes other stacks."

 

*Additional note on passive: after re-watching the Willbender's video, it seems to me that "passive" just means the "buff" you get after a virtue activation because when just hitting the golems with 7-10 skills the Lethal Tempo never triggers (I wonder what happens if you equip traits that empower the passives).

 

For PvE only (No chances to do this in WvW or PvP):

As for charging justice, remember that hammer can unleash an huge and steady number of attacks with his AA if there are many targets... 1 full AA = 3x3 + 5x5 = 34 attacks in 2.35 seconds (with wirt+quickness).

With Zeal/Honor/FB you can easily maintain 25 stack of vulnerability on the enemy, and get perma protection/25might/regen/quickness/fury (with the right traits and gear of course); also AA Symbol will heal 2 times per second (2.35s to complete the full AA, leaving a symbol of 5s). If compared to mace, the damage will be up to 3 times higher...

That means that you cannot realistically campare it with mace exactly as you cannot compare it with GS... hammer is something in between.

Edited August 15, 2021 by hash.8462
Additional note on "passive"

[GoingMenthol.7281]

5 hours ago, hash.8462 said:

Renewed Justice (Radiance) can reset the active, but mace cannot.

 

Good point, I didn't read that part correctly

 

5 hours ago, hash.8462 said:

As for charging justice, remember that hammer can unleash an huge and steady number of attacks with his AA if there are many targets... 1 full AA = 3x3 + 5x5 = 34 attacks in 2.35 seconds (with wirt+quickness).

With Zeal/Honor/FB you can easily maintain 25 stack of vulnerability on the enemy, and get perma protection/25might/regen/quickness/fury (with the right traits and gear of course); also AA Symbol will heal 2 times per second (2.35s to complete the full AA, leaving a symbol of 5s). If compared to mace, the damage will be up to 3 times higher...

That means that you cannot realistically campare it with mace exactly as you cannot compare it with GS... hammer is something in between.

 

That's a good build, but your previous comment mentions the fact that you're forced into using Firebrand, Zeal and Honor

 

On 8/7/2021 at 7:16 PM, hash.8462 said:

Also, since your AA is slow you also feel forced to use Firebrand (to have a better access to quickness).

I think that at the moment Zeal/Honor/Firebrand is the only decent way to optimize an Hammer build, no real dps build is aviable so you are stuck to be an hybrid.

 

Don't get me wrong, I 100% agree with everything you've said, it's just that it confirms hammer to be stuck in a rut that makes it a hybrid build with no diversity, and that the hammer trait is completely useless for the weapon it was made for because it's not worth the dps or healing loss. What I'm thinking is if traits aren't changed to make hammer more diverse, why not change hammer skills to justify the use of other traits?

[hash.8462]

39 minutes ago, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

What I'm thinking is if traits aren't changed to make hammer more diverse, why not change hammer skills to justify the use of other traits?

I suppose that ArenaNet can change both weapon skills and traits... at the moment the hammer is part support and part dps, but there are already many dps only and support only weapons... so my question are:

If not an hybrid, what role do we need for hammer?

If hybrid is ok, how to improve it without damaging other weapons? (Is this really possible?)

[aelska.4609]

Reduce #1 3rd attack cast time from 1.25s to 0.75s

Don't touch #2 (or increase its CD, I hate it being a spam skill)

Make #3 an autopiloted missile so that it can hit long range

Give an automatic shadowstep on #4 after launch, so that it can be comboed more easily (and, eventually, decrease cast time from 1s to 0.75s)

Don't touch #5.

Xmas wishlist.

[RisenHowl.2419]

hammer is going to be very viable with willbender imo

[GoingMenthol.7281]

A weapon with cc, a utility bar filled with cc, an elite skill with cc. and sigils of impact and force...

 

Is... Is this the return of Knocklock?

[GoingMenthol.7281]

On 8/15/2021 at 5:31 PM, RisenHowl.2419 said:

hammer is going to be very viable with willbender imo

 

Have you tried out hammer willbender yet? I've been playing a bit of PvE and I'm really not sure what to make of it.

 

(Using Zeal/Honor/Willbender, marauder, then tried valkyrie/marauder mix)

- The only useful Adept trait imo is Power for Power. Gaining concentration or healing power doesn't feel worth it for hammer (1 second protection, writ of persistence doesn't use much healing power), and the power increase feels about the same as Dragonhunter's percent damage increases

- Minor Master trait is 25% movement, like DH

- Lethal Tempo is easier to maintain with fast hitting weapons (sword/greatsword)

 

Maybe there's a Diviner stat build that would work? (boon pact/vanguard tactics/phoenix protocol)

[Neva Eilhart.5347]

14 hours ago, GoingMenthol.7281 said:

 

Have you tried out hammer willbender yet? I've been playing a bit of PvE and I'm really not sure what to make of it.

 

(Using Zeal/Honor/Willbender, marauder, then tried valkyrie/marauder mix)

- The only useful Adept trait imo is Power for Power. Gaining concentration or healing power doesn't feel worth it for hammer (1 second protection, writ of persistence doesn't use much healing power), and the power increase feels about the same as Dragonhunter's percent damage increases

- Minor Master trait is 25% movement, like DH

- Lethal Tempo is easier to maintain with fast hitting weapons (sword/greatsword)

 

Maybe there's a Diviner stat build that would work? (boon pact/vanguard tactics/phoenix protocol)

 

Tried hammer for a couple hours in PvE with WB, some of its toolkit works great (#5 to prevent enemies from getting out of your virtues flames for example), some of it is terrible (#1 AA is too slow without any quickness to land with such a high mobility-based class).

All in all, I'm now wondering why Anet keeps introducing new weapons to professions via e-specs when some of their core weapons are still broken to this day.

Instead of giving e-specs new weapons (and new skills which are to be balanced - so far off hand sword is terrible in all game modes for WB), just give the e-specs new reworked variations of old school weapons.

[hash.8462]

I've tried willbender with hammer in pve, with different combinations of stats and traitlines... and I don't feel it right...

Hammer is stuck on zeal/honor/firebrand for me, I can't see any other way to use it at the moment.

[Exile.8160]

Even a simple CD reduction of the third AA would be enough to make it see a bit of play.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Exile.8160

[Guirssane.7082]

On 8/6/2021 at 9:51 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

"hammer is useless" = "he doesn't know how to use it". 

 

The only issue hammer ever had and still has is overloaded AA. 

Whats the point playing hammer in pvp when GS is just better with better animation 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Guirssane.7082 said:

Whats the point playing hammer in pvp when GS is just better with better animation 

Allowing people to play how they want ... that's the point. I mean, sure, if you want to be predictable in PVP ... by all means, play what everyone else does. Just don't start complaining when you lose against good players that can predict your moves. 

 

That's actually not an unreasonable question though ... maybe you should also read some more of the posts of others that use it to get some insight to your question. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Tulkas.2576]

Just hit platinum for the first time ever yesterday and I’ve been running radiant hammer with berserker/speed runes and “advance!” instead of smite condition. Cleansing/energy on Sword/focus and exposure/intelligence on hammer. 
I’m by no means a very skilled player, but it’s the highest rating I’ve ever had. There’s a couple advantages over GS, one of which is many people don’t know how to play against it. The other advantage is that the burst is almost instant, you really can catch lots of people by surprise. Banish is also helpful for moving downs around.

I still think GS is overall better by far and  hammer could use a buff or two, but I am having lots of fun with it. 
 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

One nice thing about Guardian Hammer is no one ever expects it. Sometimes I really crush players in WvW because they just have a moment where they're going "what ARE these skills?", especially on the #5 skill.