Where is the Balance? - Mirage Dodge

[Aeolus.3615]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.Thank you so much.

Before I read your post, based on the whine of the others I thought anet removed distorsion, mirrors, stealth, leaps and teleports from mirage too and that poor mirages are left with one way to avoid damage.

Srsly... it's ridiculous. All these whine posts should be saved for the next time a competent mirage player shows up and wins games as an example of: you suck a the game, you don't know your class mechanics, you don't know your options.

lol, 1v1 me, you mirage me necro. ( mesmer counters necro btw )if you manage to win once out of 10 fights ill give you 200g, how does that sounds?

If u are a decent mirage/Mesmer he won’t even touch you but will take time.

Most Mesmer are complaining due the low effort gameplay of Mesmer being removed making players actually now have to play rather than gimmick combo for a easy win.

Only people that don’t understand the class say its unplayable...Altouth he is kinda right Mesmer and mirage still have a lot of features to use.

Mirage players Just need to play better, there are some that are quite trolly, but if they pace combat slower or make a mistake they m8 put themselves in pressure, Mesmer was overperforming....on their bursts and spamming capabilities, most players don’t want to adapt to the current gameplay since it’s harder for them as well.

Now we will know who are the real good players using this class.

[Tayga.3192]

@Aeolus.3615 said:Now we will know who are the real good players using this class.

Many of the good mesmer players already stopped playing :)

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I think some people failed to realise that dodge wasn't the only nerf.CS which was a staple on power mes was deleted, not nerfed, deleted.GS and MW were nerfed as well.Now you say "the damage of all professions was nerfed" to which I reply yeah, but the only thing power mesmer had was burst, sustain damage was always crap.

[storm.3120]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.Thank you so much.

Before I read your post, based on the whine of the others I thought anet removed distorsion, mirrors, stealth, leaps and teleports from mirage too and that poor mirages are left with one way to avoid damage.

Srsly... it's ridiculous. All these whine posts should be saved for the next time a competent mirage player shows up and wins games as an example of: you suck a the game, you don't know your class mechanics, you don't know your options.

lol, 1v1 me, you mirage me necro. ( mesmer counters necro btw )if you manage to win once out of 10 fights ill give you 200g, how does that sounds?

If u are a decent mirage/Mesmer he won’t even touch you but will take time.

Most Mesmer are complaining due the low effort gameplay of Mesmer being removed making players actually now have to play rather than gimmick combo for a easy win.

Only people that don’t understand the class say its unplayable...Altouth he is kinda right Mesmer and mirage still have a lot of features to use.

Mirage players Just need to play better, there are some that are quite trolly, but if they pace combat slower or make a mistake they m8 put themselves in pressure, Mesmer was overperforming....

Now we will know who are the real good players using this class.^ I found an owner of BadMed account :joy:

He can freely chose on which of his forum accounts he will back up what he says and post some footage about how he is carried by playing a Mirage vs semi decent player xD

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Lets do the same deal as i do with all ppl only having a big mouth being a forum hero but never show any footage proving how they get carried by the class they call op. Pls record some footage, show us how you get carried vs at least semi decent opponent.I'm thinkin about to do it wtih a ranger. Pretty easy/faceroll/braindead class :)

Soulbeast? I was too busy until now to play my Necro before nerfed into the ground (luckily didn't happen), have not tried Ranger yet. But i would not be surprised you mean Soulbeast because Anet did the same here as to Mesmer (on a less nonsense lvl but still), they deleted skill ceiling without even addressing the rly op and low skill ceiling stuff on Ranger in general and Soulbeast in particular.Talkin about core. High self damage and high pet damage - you will see a lot more complains about ranger class in the future. And not sure if low skill ceiling is refered to low skill floor? If anything its skill ceiling was reduced and soulbeast strenght (decreased skill ceiling)/complexity.

[Tayga.3192]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:CS

Speaking of CS,There is one more CS that needs attention:Continuum Split. Make it 72 seconds cooldown. TYWM.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

I am still confused by the term "dumbed down" I thought it meant it's made things braindead easier, but theres nerfs have done the complete opposite to it. Or do you mean dumb down that theres is really nothing else to do but use dodge and ambush in 1 go, rather then using ambushbat will?

[bravan.3876]

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.Thank you so much.

Before I read your post, based on the whine of the others I thought anet removed distorsion, mirrors, stealth, leaps and teleports from mirage too and that poor mirages are left with one way to avoid damage.

Srsly... it's ridiculous. All these whine posts should be saved for the next time a competent mirage player shows up and wins games as an example of: you suck a the game, you don't know your class mechanics, you don't know your options.

lol, 1v1 me, you mirage me necro. ( mesmer counters necro btw )if you manage to win once out of 10 fights ill give you 200g, how does that sounds?

If u are a decent mirage/Mesmer he won’t even touch you but will take time.

Most Mesmer are complaining due the low effort gameplay of Mesmer being removed making players actually now have to play rather than gimmick combo for a easy win.

Only people that don’t understand the class say its unplayable...Altouth he is kinda right Mesmer and mirage still have a lot of features to use.

Mirage players Just need to play better, there are some that are quite trolly, but if they pace combat slower or make a mistake they m8 put themselves in pressure, Mesmer was overperforming....

Now we will know who are the real good players using this class.^ I found an owner of BadMed account :joy:

He can freely chose on which of his forum accounts he will back up what he says and post some footage about how he is carried by playing a Mirage vs semi decent player xD

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Lets do the same deal as i do with all ppl only having a big mouth being a forum hero but never show any footage proving how they get carried by the class they call op. Pls record some footage, show us how you get carried vs at least semi decent opponent.I'm thinkin about to do it wtih a ranger. Pretty easy/faceroll/braindead class :)

Soulbeast? I was too busy until now to play my Necro before nerfed into the ground (luckily didn't happen), have not tried Ranger yet. But i would not be surprised you mean Soulbeast because Anet did the same here as to Mesmer (on a less nonsense lvl but still), they deleted skill ceiling without even addressing the rly op and low skill ceiling stuff on Ranger in general and Soulbeast in particular.Talkin about core. High self damage and high pet damage - you will see a lot more complains about ranger class in the future. And not sure if low skill ceiling is refered to low skill floor? If anything its skill ceiling was reduced and soulbeast strenght (decreased skill ceiling)/complexity.

Skill floor is about how easy it is to pick the class up, how fast as a new player you can get reward from it, without even playing it that well. Skill ceiling is how hard it is to play the class near its maximum potential, means skill ceiling is more about how much tactical deepness and mechanical complexity and how many iq the class needs to be played ON top lvl (mechanically) and AT top lvl (vs good opponents). At least that is how i understood the definitions. The deleted pet swap now does both: lower skill ceiling and lower skill floor. While the one dodge change on Mesmer highers the skill floor a little bit but kills a big amount of skill ceiling (at least on Powermirage). A bit lower skill floor (as long as not too low) is not that big of a deal balancewise normally, it helps to lower the barrier for new players to find into the game. Meanwhile low skill ceiling is always a balance problem and nerfs which lower skill ceiling should be avoided. That is when looking at extrema. You ofc also have a middle thing between both you need to balance too, means a class that is played on average good lvl should be less effective when overall easier to play than a harder to play class played on average skill lvl. Stuff that needs more skill to pull of can be a bit stronger/ more rewarding when played at least semi decent. Because higher skill requirement is a trade off by itself.

[bravan.3876]

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:I am still confused by the term "dumbed down" I thought it meant it's made things braindead easier, but theres nerfs have done the complete opposite to it. Or do you mean dumb down that theres is really nothing else to do but use dodge and ambush in 1 go, rather then using ambushbat will?

No that is exactly what the one dodge change does to Mirage: it makes it braindead easier because it deletes every skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity by contradicting and overnerfing the mechanic and makes an active and skilled use of the mechanic impossible. Didn't i directly answer this question already for you? Want to search in your message notifications yourself to find it or do i need to do it again and spam the forum even more with quoting the same stuff over and over?

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@bravan.3876 said:

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:I am still confused by the term "dumbed down" I thought it meant it's made things braindead easier, but theres nerfs have done the complete opposite to it. Or do you mean dumb down that theres is really nothing else to do but use dodge and ambush in 1 go, rather then using ambushbat will?

No that is exactly what the one dodge change does to Mirage: it makes it braindead easier because it deletes every skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity by contradicting and overnerfing the mechanic and makes an active and skilled use of the mechanic impossible. Didn't i directly answer this question already for you? Want to search in your message notifications yourself to find it or do i need to do it again and spam the forum even more with quoting the same stuff over and over?

Yea you did but it was worded differently to what you just said, that's why I recently said "I am still confused" but you awnsered be this time that i understood, do thanks.

[bravan.3876]

Nvm found it:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

You might only be ironical here but a lot of ppl were saying that in a serious way, so i will say it once again.

This is completely wrong. I am too tired to restart wall of explaining but in semi short:

Even for a class/ spec that is not build around doing more with dodges than only evading attack, this is a stupid change, dumbs down dodge management skillwise by a lot. With other words, on not a single class in the game, not even on a class/spec/ build that can passively facetank way more than a Mirage and only needs to dodge pure defensive, this change would make any sense and will always lower skill ceiling and tactical deepness in dodge management.

And the more you compensate the overnerf on the dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead on cd, non reactive spammy the dodge behavior will get.

Doesn't even need to be mentioned that Mirage gets double dumbed down (in particular on the not op and high skill ceiling active builds like Powermirage) by making every pure offensive dodge to actively and reactive and well timed hit an ambush rewards on the target 100% impossible. But that pure offensive dodging to hit dodge rewards to actively outplay opponents is all the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and harder decision making Mirgae is based on.

So gg you made Mirage dodge behavior even more passive and even more braindead spammy and that even doubled compared to other classes would get dumbed down by that nonsense change already. Did that solve the problem of the passive condi clone dmg at all? No, at least not when Mirage will be playable. Deleting problems by deleting specs is no good balance. Nerfing op stuff at its roots and higher (not lower) skill ceiling and do not overnerf not op and skillful builds as a spin-off are changes i want to see.

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Just means mirage cant double dodge at the start of the fight, no big deal right?

You might only be ironical here but a lot of ppl were saying that in a serious way, so i will say it once again.

This is completely wrong. I am too tired to restart wall of explaining but in semi short:

Even for a class/ spec that is not build around doing more with dodges than only evading attack, this is a stupid change, dumbs down dodge management skillwise by a lot. With other words, on not a single class in the game, not even on a class/spec/ build that can passively facetank way more than a Mirage and only needs to dodge pure defensive, this change would make any sense and will always lower skill ceiling and tactical deepness in dodge management.

And the more you compensate the overnerf on the dodge bar with more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime the more braindead on cd, non reactive spammy the dodge behavior will get.

Doesn't even need to be mentioned that Mirage gets double dumbed down (in particular on the not op and high skill ceiling active builds like Powermirage) by making every pure offensive dodge to actively and reactive and well timed hit an ambush rewards on the target 100% impossible. But that pure offensive dodging to hit dodge rewards to actively outplay opponents is all the skill ceiling, tactical deepness and harder decision making Mirgae is based on.

So gg you made Mirage dodge behavior even more passive and even more braindead spammy and that even doubled compared to other classes would get dumbed down by that nonsense change already. Did that solve the problem of the passive condi clone dmg at all? No, at least not when Mirage will be playable. Deleting problems by deleting specs is no good balance. Nerfing op stuff at its roots and higher (not lower) skill ceiling and do not overnerf not op and skillful builds as a spin-off are changes i want to see.

Actually I was being sarcastic, ofc it was silly to knock 50 endurance off :-/

Anyway, dumbing down? Seem to misunderstood you but I thought by removing that 50 endurance its raised the skill level up because now it's a lot harder to fight with out the double dodge, I thought dumbing down things is like, for example giving theif instant reflexes and dagger storm. Playing a high evading class shouldn't rely on passive evade trait- that's what I thought dumbing down meant

Passive evade traits are dumbed down too but that is a completely different thing compared to active endurance dodges. Comparsion doesn't make sense. Ofc the moment you can just nearly perma chain active dodges it would also be dumbed down (like some Thief builds can). But Mirages were far away from that already. Even more Mirage was outdodged by most other classes already.

I think i already explained well and detailed, why a 2 dodge bar was minimum limit since game release to provide tactical deepness and the freedom of decision making for a skillful and active and not spammy dodgemanagement (in a combat system GW2 has, with enurance reggen and vigor) and why overlimiting dodge bar is a dumb down move (just as underlimiting dodge bar or dodges in general for nearly perma chaining is a dumb down too. It is all about finding a good equilibrium to maximize skill ceiling), not only on Mirage. Mirage just gets double dumbed down for already explained reasons (contradicing the whole elite mechanic, makes active and well timed pure offensive dodges for ambush rewards impossible etc). But yes that wrong logical deduction you made is easy to do. It seems right on the first view. And missing that reducing dodge uptime is only right on a situation when active dodges can be chained too much but not when you start to overlimit it. But even on builds that rly could nearly perma chain active dodges you would not reduce dodge bar to 1 , you would reduce endurance reggen and if needed higher some cds on weapon and utility skills providing an evade.

Daredevil as the other spec build around stronger dodges even got more dodges not less than other classes, what was not rly needed but it shows that there are reasons you have to give specs build around doing more with dodges than only evading attacks a minimum of the basic resource to work as intended. Mirage go not only overnerfed in dodges (like too slow endurance reggen, no vigor uptime anymore and double cds on weaponskills with evade included, which would have the same effect) it got overnerfed in a way that contradicts the basic gamewide rule of skillful dodge management from heaving an (at least or better exactly) 2 dodges endurance bar.

And now, after you already killed skill ceiling from dodge management (even doubled on Mirage), you now want to compensate the skill ceiling deleting overnerf on the endurance bar with more endurance reggen or higher vigor uptime, what will make the dodge management even less reactive, even more spammy on cd to not waste endurance reggen. Triple dumb down for Mirage. While the problem of the too passive/ too high condi clone dmg is not even solved by its roots.

Mirages dodge management didn't get any harder, it got easier and it got even more passive. You simple doesn't have any possibility to use your dodges for tactical moves, so no need to think about that anymore, no opportunity costs, no harder decision making. And that on a spec that is supposed to use dodges also offensive to actively and reactive time them for ambush rewards. What now is simply impossible. And you are even forced to spam dodges when the endurance bar is full to not waste endurance reggen.

@bravan.3876 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro.

That's completely false. Those classes can just do damage with a dodge roll. Mesmer can cast Confusing Images (or any other attack/skill) while dodging. That's the difference.

You get it! I don't understand why these people are trying to make a argument out of something like this. Its even stated on gw2 wiki that being able to dodge while attacking and dodge while disable is a unique feature of mirage cloak.

Ofc it is an unique feature in the exact form of MC, also no one (at least not me) denies that it is a strong feature. But for that it is nearly all a Mesmer gets for speccing into a whole traitline it is nothing that far away from what other classes have as core baseline in addition to their class specific strengths. I just get triggered from the overexaggerating bronze propaganda that it is "beyond broken". It is strong but thats it. And it is already balanced out by 3 inherent costs + several pre patch nerfs. MC was not overperforming at all anymore (pre patch). It was very good to remove the stunbreak on dodge, that was gamebreaking in a way you could not balance out. There are no other nerfs needed to MC. The only nerfs Condimirage needed were to the passive and op condi clone ambushes (or better a rework of the whole ambush design on condi weapons). And also additionally nerf condi clone normal autoattacks to be comparable with power clone autoattacks (means nearly zero dmg). Give shatters condi dmg back instead. Also Chaosline needs a rework (or more nerfs when it is still broken, what i don't know atm, for Viquing: IN MY OPINION).

These changes would

1. only nerf condi playstyle not power playstyle as a spin-off
2. not contradict the whole spec mechanic and killing skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity as a spin-off
3. would finally solve the root problems instead just nerfing around it (Condimirage and even Corecondimes still too passive and ez asf post patch, atmax it is less op, but maybe not even that)
4. would make Condimirage harder to play, less noobfriendly without dumbing down power to the same passive and dodge spam lvl

It is rly obvious, what makes it even harder to believe that a lot of ppl have such a hard time to see it, even after wall of text explanations from me. 99.9 % of ppl rly tried out the spec (means playing it for a bit and get some class knowledge) and look unbiased at it can see it.

Condimirage needed nerfs or at least a rework to less passive clone condi dmg back to more active shatter dmg, never saw any Mesmer main denying that. But the one dodge change is just stupid, misses the goals of solving the actual balance problems of the spec, just makes it less skillful and way more clunky.

Mesmer haters shoot themself into the foot when voting for that change, actually funny. Lets see when they will start to understand, maybe only when the grave is closing they put themselfs in...

I could quote many more but as said spamming the forum with the same stuff over and over doesn't rly make much sense to me.

[bravan.3876]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:I am still confused by the term "dumbed down" I thought it meant it's made things braindead easier, but theres nerfs have done the complete opposite to it. Or do you mean dumb down that theres is really nothing else to do but use dodge and ambush in 1 go, rather then using ambushbat will?

No that is exactly what the one dodge change does to Mirage: it makes it braindead easier because it deletes every skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity by contradicting and overnerfing the mechanic and makes an active and skilled use of the mechanic impossible. Didn't i directly answer this question already for you? Want to search in your message notifications yourself to find it or do i need to do it again and spam the forum even more with quoting the same stuff over and over?

Yea you did but it was worded differently to what you just said, that's why I recently said "I am still confused" but you awnsered be this time that i understood, do thanks.

Oh ok then, saw it too late xD

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

And what tactical/out play maneuvers are you referring to here with that extra window of ambush? Because all I have see power mirage do, is use mirage cloak, sword ambush, the mirage would kite away or stealth while clones daze you. I haven't noticed anything else that's effected me like sword ambush daze.

[bravan.3876]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:And what tactical/out play maneuvers are you referring to here with that extra window of ambush? Because all I have see power mirage do, is use mirage cloak, sword ambush, the mirage would kite away or stealth while clones daze you. I haven't noticed anything else that's effected me like sword ambush daze.

Sounds like you never saw or met a good Powermirage until now. Not that surprising because as mentioned you don't even need one hand to count the Powermirages in the game able to understand and able to play it on such high active/ on purpose tactical outplay lvl.

@bravan.3876 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

Sry when it felt rude to you, but i just mentioned a fact here. I even did the effort and tried to explain to you why condi clone ambushes are passive... even Mesmer mains agree to that.

Reread this statement you made as if someone said it to you and decide for yourself if it was rude?

@bravan.3876 said:

Did i write in chinese or something? Explaining to you what i mean would rly be too much work, you are far away from any deeper understanding. :scream:

Because if you think telling somebody you think they are "too far away from 'deeper understanding' to explain something because it would be too much work then I will feel free to speak down to you on regular basis as if you are too stupid to understand anything. It has nothing to do with speaking facts, it the insults you keep throwing in. It is the condescending remarks you make.

Btw i am mulitclass player so don't even try the Mesmer main thing on me

I didn't call you a Mesmer main, you assumed it. You keep talking about how everyone else doesn't understand the class. I just figured since you act like everyone else is less knowledgeable than you then you must be the best at it. I play Mesmer mostly in PvE and play it a lot in PvP but I also play other classes. In fact based on the number of matches I have played Thief is the class I have played the most.

There is no free will when using it pure offensive is totally useless and unnecessary, when it literally is a missplay and a waste to do it. Holy cow. Ofc theoretically i can use it offensive but it would be stupid to do so (in particular now with only one dodge). Ofc we all have the free will to end our lifes by jumping from a cliff... the choice isn't that free anymore when you want to live.

Then don't use it purely offensively. That is your choice. With Scepter 2, Staff 2, Staff 5 and Distortion I can risk using it offensive if I want. The whole point of the nerf is to force you to ahve to make that decision instead of just using it spamingly. Except according to you you can't use it defensively either because you are "forced" to spam it.

Sry that you feel this way. On the other side it means, that i can stop using my time and saving my energy i use for you when all i get for it is to be called arrogant.

Well because you speak with condescending words like:

@bravan.3876 said:But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand

Also you were the one who started the conversation by responding to something I said. You can stop responding to me at any time.

@bravan.3876 said:Ever thought about you rly might don't understand everything here? That i do not say that to feel superior or because i have a too big ego or to hurt you, that i simply say that because it is just true? Sry when my wall of text of explainings make you feel like a dumb person.

Except you really don't explain things:

Passive is not = passive. There are massive differences in meanings of the word passive and in skill ceiling from different types of passives in the game (from active-active, over active-passive, over passive-active, to passive-passive traits/ skills). Also that something is active-active doesn't mean it is necesarry high skill ceiling. But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand why clone ambushes on condi weapons are mostly passive (active-passive with focus on the passive part) while power clone ambushes are active- semi passive (with focus on active- semi active part) and while a totally game only generated random aegis block (from PU trait for example) on a burst skill makes the player luckily survive a 10k hit is passive-passive and the most noobcarry and unhealthy, non reactive, non tactical toxic kitten in the game.

This isn't an explanation, this is you just telling me your opinion. It has no details to backup why ambush with a axe, scepter or staff is 'passive' but if you do it with a sword or greatsword is 'active' when both are just pushing a button. Now I get that you are frustrated with me not being persuaded here but if you are not persuading me that is a failure on your part, not on me. I'm not sure what you want to get out of this. I'm just a nobody. You need to convince CMC. Here is his Twitch stream link. Just go on when he is streaming and convince him because so far you are doing a bad job of convincing me:

https://www.twitch.tv/cmcgw2

The explanation why condi ambushes compared to power ambushes are way more passive was this one you again ignored:

@bravan.3876 said:

Last try to explain at least the basics about why condi clones ambushes are passive (even though the player has to press the dodge button): When a Mirage can dodge only pure defensive because the clone ambush skills do too high dmg (and only dmg, no effect that needs to be timed well to hit the target in a good moment that needs a different timing from just pure defensive dodges) than there is no need to care for pure offensive dodges to time ambushattacks from clones active and reactive for the reward (pure defensive dodges are enough to get enough reward out of the dodge IH/ ambush mechanic), means then clone ambush dmg becomes a completely passive side effect from dodging pure defensive. And no Condimirage player needs to think about anything of it. They just dodge when needed to evade an attack and clones do some stuff as a side effect the player has not to care for at all. What is so hard to understand with that?

Never said i was polite (but also not insulting on purpose either) when saying you have no deeper understanding. Your view on the whole topic seems pretty one dimensional to me and i rly have no clue how to talk to someone like you then. Might be my incompetence to explain well and not your incompetence to understand. This is no insult it is just me explaining why i don't know what to do with you. No clue how to say it more kind. I am not polite, i am honest, sometimes both at same time is not possible. As said it was not my goal to hurt your feeling or insult you. If it did hurt your feelings then i apologize!

To everything else: i give up, when you even deny that i explained anything until now, then i rly think we are just too far away from each other in whatever aspects to ever get to a point of understanding each other. Yes true and already said it myself i don't need to convince you and i am not mad that you are not convinced. It is not my problem in the end anyway. I already was at the point to say you are right and i am wrong but at least i have my peace then.

Except you really don't explain things:

Passive is not = passive. There are massive differences in meanings of the word passive and in skill ceiling from different types of passives in the game (from active-active, over active-passive, over passive-active, to passive-passive traits/ skills). Also that something is active-active doesn't mean it is necesarry high skill ceiling. But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand why clone ambushes on condi weapons are mostly passive (active-passive with focus on the passive part) while power clone ambushes are active- semi passive (with focus on active- semi active part) and while a totally game only generated random aegis block (from PU trait for example) on a burst skill makes the player luckily survive a 10k hit is passive-passive and the most noobcarry and unhealthy, non reactive, non tactical toxic kitten in the game.

This isn't an explanation, this is you just telling me your opinion

Ofc it is an explanation, but you didn't think further by your own based on what i explained already even with examples. I could start a big wall of text to explain including intuitively accessible examples what i mean with active-active to passive-passive while you can distinguish/ subclassify that even further. But the way our discussion was going until now makes me afraid of wasting another big amount of time and effort for a big wall of text you then will just deny is explaining anything (and is only an opinion i will pressure into your brain just to be right and just to feel good/ pro when ppl agree to me) and you will just devalue it again. But ok, i try one last time.I did a little bit explain that already by giving an example for active-passive, active-semi passive and passive-passive. But lets do it step by step:

NOTICE the the meaning of passive-passive or active -passive etc is: the first adjective is about how active or passive is the ACTIVATION of a trait/ skill. The second adjective is about how active or passive is the REWARD/ EFFECT of the skill/ trait after activation.

1. Passive - passive
   : Example for a passive-passive trait is PU. The completely passive from the game generated random proc of aegis. First passive because the player do not need to press a button for the boon to pop up. You press the button for the stealth and then the trait passively generates boons while stealthed. Means while in stealth the boon genertion happens completely without the player actively press a button and times specific boons at specific time. Second passive because the boon itself only provides a passive facetank effect will carry the player while neither the Mesmer nor his opponent can work with that random proc in an active and tactical way. = passive-passive. Maybe an even easier to understand example is Defy Pain and Last Stance traits in Warriors Defense traitline or the Thief trait Instant Reflexes (automatically dodges attacks when hp drops under 50%). Here neither the player needs to press a button to activate and for that can't time the effect/ reward of the trait/ skill himself, also the skill/trait rewards are on the more passive side by providing pretty non reactive, passive facetank sustain. The game plays itself here more of less (the player could be afk during the whole acticvation of the skill/trait automatically from the game and for most parts of the effect/reward duration without dying). In a previous post to someone else i called that passives from category One. These passives-passive traits/ skills have a very low skill ceiling/ floor and a high amount of noobcarry effect. The only active and a little bit skillful part from some of them is, that you need to care for not wasting another defensive cooldown while the passive noobsaver effect is running (like do not use the endure pain utility or a dodge for a power dmg attack while passive endure pain is still running). So the best and most passive example for passive-passive is indeed the random aegis proc from PU.

2. active-passive
   : Example condi clone ambushes (NOT the Mesmers OWN ambushes, only the clone ones). Active activation because you need to press a button (as you mentioned yourself already), but then passive in effect/ reward because the main purpose for the button use was dodging and that purely defensive, because offensive dodges only for hitting the clone ambush reward well timed and differently timed from pure defensive dodges on Condimirage never made sense, never were necessary/needed to do and to consider, means the dmg the clones then do completely by themself from their ambushes is only a passive secondary side effect the player gets on top of the main reason he dodges for without the need to actively work with that. Looking into the brain of that player in those moments you only will see him thinking about dodging an attack, you will not see a little thought like "oh i dodge here because that is a very good moment to hit some dmg from my clones". You barely have that active pure offensive use on purpose only to finish a target on Condimirage, otherwise a Condimirage will not think a single time about dodging for dmg, he only thinks about dodging for staying alive and suddenly the target is dead when the clones can hit their stuff. Active-passive traits/skills have a higher skill ceiling than passive-passive stuff but still a pretty low skill ceiling/floor and a high noobcarry effect.

3. active- semi passive
   : Example power weapon ambushes from clones (sword in the first place, gs is a bit more passive than sword but thanks to might and vuln still less passive than condiambushes and also less op because the dmg from gs clone ambushes is laughable by itself). You use a button to activate the ambushes on clones so "active in activation" (just like on condi clones ambushes). The effect you activate then is also active at least on pure offensive dodges or dodges you do on purpose for both rewards (dodging an attack while still getting a well timed interrupt on the follow up attack of your opponent, you maybe even actively switched to sword before that dodge for that purpose, for example you expect a Warrior to do the shield bash- f1 cc-burst combo, so you switch to sword, dodge the shield cc on sword and the clone will interrupt the f1 cast while you can leap in the other direction to get some distance again). Compare that move to just some side effect condi dmg on a pure defensive dodge on Condimirage... you rly think that is the same? That are totally different lvls of active-passive elements in a class mechanic, and one has super low to no skill ceiling (simple condi dmg application without any special timing from player side, so just a pure passive side effect from pure defensive dodges on Condimirage what is even op in how high the dmg from the condistacks is) and the other one is a very high skill ceiling, high iq outplay move on a Powermirage with IH). It gets even more clear when you look at pure offensive dodges to get a perfectly timed interrupt from a sword clone who is near a target hiding out of los to cover his heal. So you dodge without being pressured so that the clone leaps behind the wall to your target and interrupts the heal. Means not only the button use for the activation of the dodge is active but also the effect/ reward from the ambush was actively timed by the player for a compeltely different purpose than only evading an attack (instead just getting some dmg or not as a passive side effect what wasn't timed for its own purpose by the player on Condimirage). Condiambushes have no additional effect creating the need and forcing the player into pure offensive dodges timed differently from pure defensive dodges to optimize dodge rewards from IH/ambushes. Also the condi dmg on clone ambushes is that high, that it is already rewarding enough to only dodge pure defensive for only clone ambush dmg. On gs even when you dodge with 3 clones up, they do not rly do much without the Mesmers own ambush in addition (pure dmg wise). They have more value from applying vulnerability. But the vulnerability duration is not that high, means that needs to be timed before a burst from the Mirage itself or when his team wants to burst in teamfights. That is an active aspect for active timing clone ambushes for a differnt purpose than the dodge itself and will be executed often without the Mirage being pressured at all, simple for the purpose of a burst preparation. Means here the Mirage has to "waste" a dodge only for a well timed vulnerability application without the need to doge an attack. That creates opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodge management and adds skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity to the Mirage mechanic you simply don't have on Condiweapons. And what also gets completely contradicted and for that destroyed by overnerfing dodge resources, so these offensive active and well timed reactive dodges for different purposes than only dodging attacks will be impossible, aka why the one dodge bar change will double dumb down in particular Powermirage builds by a lot while not even solving the problem of too passive and op in dmg condi clone ambushes. I called power weapon clone ambushes active-SEMI passive because also here you can have a passive side effect because ofc the clone ambushes also activate when the player only wants to evade an attack and do not think about a well timed interrupt from clones at all. In that moment (of a pure defensive dodge with no other active and on purpose goal from the player) the clone ambushes from gs and sword are also just passive side effects. But here this is balanced because neither sword clones nor gs clones ambushes have that high rewards, that they can kill something by its own. Means sword and also gs have per se way better designed ambushes by being more about effects/ utility than only pure dmg (what forces to use dodges also pure offensive to perfectly time ambush rewards and the need to time them differently from pure defensive dodges). And their effects are also not too strong to make them worth only hitting as not well timed pure passive side effect from pure defensive dodges. That is the whole background why Condimirage is op and passive and low skill ceiling but Powermirage is not op and way less passive with way higher skill ceiling, even though both have same access to MC. Active-semi passive skills/traits can have very high skill ceiling/ floor even though they still have passive elements in some situations (only passive on pure defensive dodges).

4. active-(semi-)active
   : Example the Mirages own ambushes (both condi and power), you need to press a button to dodge and to activate the ambush window and then need to press another button to activate the ambush attack while the player has freedom of choice to time both of it differently, initially timed the dodge (offensive or defensive or both at same time) and then timed the ambush skill itself inside the ambush window for reactive and tactical outplays of the opponent. Means the activation of the ambush window just as well as the activation of the ambush itself is both actively controlled and timed by the player itself. Semi active i only called it because the activation of the ambush window is directly coupled to the button use for the dodge (means in case when you dodge only pure defensive and do not use the ambush skill afterwards, the activation of the ambush window was only a passive not from player intended side effect from pressing dodge button only for the sake of dodging). Active-active skills have a good chance of being high skill ceiling but when they are too strong they also can have lower skill ceiling (for example there are gs ambush spam power builds using Illusionary ambush and doing nothing else than spamming phantams and gs ambushes from range. This playstyle is ofc also not that impressive in terms of how much skill it needs to be played well. This playstyle is possible because Mesmers own gs ambush is a bit too strong in dmg and because Illusionary Ambush is way too strong).

5. (semi-)passive-active
   : Example Critical Infusion trait in Duelling. The vigor proc is passive (automatically) generated by the game (at least more passive than a player using an utility skill that provides vigor on button use and for that can be timed by the player when needed). It also is more passive because the game generates crits automatically, the player has zero influence on when the crit and for that the vigor proc will happen. Still it is not 100% passive activation because the player cannot be afk and vigor will proc. The player needs to play the game and actively use buttons (for different purposes but still needs to use buttons) to make the trait activation possible. Thats why i say SEMI passive. For a better understanding: 100% passive in activation would the trait be, when it would be like: every time the Mesmer get hit by an critical strike the Mesmer gains vigor. That would be passive-active not just semi passive-active. Because now the player gains vigor even when he does absolutely nothing himself. He could be afk and the vigor would proc when another player hits him with a crit. After the vigor proc is passive, the reward from that proc is active. You have to use that vigor active. That is nothing carrying compared to a lucky random aegis block from PU can mean the difference between being killed by a 10k hit or not get hit at all. That is not a trait forces passive (and non reactive facetank) gameplay, it is not a trait carrying the player by making the game play itself or carrying the player just by being up on the buffbar (like a passive random protection proc, what is way more passive than a passive vigor proc and has way lower skill ceiling and way higher noobcarry potential). Critical Infusion is a trait supports active defensive gameplay. It is active after the passive activation of the proc itself. The endurance the player gets from vigor he has to use by pressing the dodge button for reactive and well timed dodges (offensive or defensive in case of Mirage or other classes with dodge-traits). The player can waste this resource for active defensive gameplay by timing dodges wrong (for example panic random dodges). That is 100% active, it just highers the resource for active defensive gameplay. As long as the trait reward is not too high (like perma vigor for braindead nearly perma dodge chaining) these traits will not effect skill ceiling/ floor from a build using that trait in a negative way. it will not carry the player by covering mistakes. Passive-active traits are completely fair traits, legitim well made skill design no game can exist without.

6. passive-active
   : (see No. 5)

7. i think that were enough examples to make the categorisation in all its multidimentional nature comprehensible. At least i hope that?

If not:Here i explained it in a different way for someone else. It was a badly structured post what was the main reason @"viquing.8254" did not rly understand me there that well either. But maybe helps when you see the same topic just explained with different words and categories than i did for you now:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1159120#Comment_1159120

Btw when you now answer like: You didn't read because you don't want to talk with me any further because you accuse me of just being arrogant and that i am just trying to convince you from a simple subjective opinion so i can feel like a pro and feel superior, than i jump out of the window...

Check 3. active- semi passive and 4. active-semi active. That will answer your question.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Odik.4587

As Mesmer I ment mirage my badI tend to call classes by its core name,I know it’s wrong...

If the mirage Dodge nerf was a really heavy hammer Anet will put it back, as it m8 even be a testing ground to test it’s blinks and combat mobility, or add some skill that will increase endurance recover when performing some action.Maybe Anet is trying to make mirage player use other kind of utilities due the lack of one dodge.

What I would call is if players are qq due more effort is needed, that’s wrong...if a class requires skill to play it’s a good thing.

[viquing.8254]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Mirage should not dodge less than the entire roster, plain and simple.

Mirrors are no excuse, and mirrors are a terrible mechanic that are more likely to screw you over. On top of being so limited that the only way mirages are even slightly able to keep up is with signet to supplement. If that is the sole reason to justify this that part of the kit should just be removed and replaced with something else. Either way you shouldn't require a trait, a utility, and play 4D chess with fickle clone positioning to barely get on par evasion to the rest of the class.

Anyone who simply says "mirage deserves to dodge less than the roster" is just biased and holds a grudge. OR are the same big brained morons who'd call mesmer OP even when it was replaceable in slot, and only taken for portal; in a time when it was abandoned by top players for thief.

There wasn't much noise when thief got the elite with an extra dodge. Just a mechanic, you see. Similarly, it's perfectly OK that Mirage got one dodge taken away. Learn to play with the mechanics.Anyone who thinks that mirage should have more than one dodge is just biased and wants to keep playing a broken class. We're moving towards achieving some balance. Learn to play.

Proves ? Were are your mirage who now how to play ?

[storm.3120]

@Aeolus.3615 said:@Odik.4587

As Mesmer I ment mirage my badI tend to call classes by its core name,I know it’s wrong...If you meant mirage... power combo... you should know it has not enough damage to down the player. Even if you played full zerk like core PU, you would be stuggling to get more than few kills per game in that way and get hard-destroyed by all semi-competent thieves.The changes are welcome put Mesmer more on pair with other classes rather than burst or be bursted gameplay wich limited the game itself.You just admitted that you dont know mesmer even a tiny bit... Mesmer always had only this burst combo and super low sustained damage. To be on par with other classes it need to have sustained damage to NOT rely on this burst. Mesmer GS need a rework,not half as$ed nerfs, never been good for anything but this burst thing.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@Odik.4587

As Mesmer I ment mirage my badI tend to call classes by its core name,I know it’s wrong...If you meant mirage... power combo... you should know it has not enough damage to down the player. Even if you played full zerk like core PU, you would be stuggling to get more than few kills per game in that way and get hard-destroyed by all semi-competent thieves.The changes are welcome put Mesmer more on pair with other classes rather than burst or be bursted gameplay wich limited the game itself.You just admitted that you dont know mesmer even a tiny bit... Mesmer always had only this burst combo and super low sustained damage. To be on par with other classes it need to have sustained damage to NOT rely on this burst. Mesmer GS need a rework,not half as$ed nerfs, never been good for anything but this burst thing.

That’s part of what I’m trying to say, mirage dodge isn’t a issue, class m8 have other issues.After trying it it felt Anet want player to be more blinky than usual than try to burst or be bursted...but that was pure gimmick....it had to change..

That’s what u guys need to discuss about then IMO, I only played condi mirage and the Gs burst combo to see if I could counter it better, but if that’s all Mesmer was all about, and now Its shafted like all/most classes are to spend more time in combat, that m8 be what is lacking... not the lack of dodge.

If u really want to know IMO mirage need some decent remake to become attractive.

[storm.3120]

@Aeolus.3615 said:@"Odik.4587"

As Mesmer I ment mirage my badI tend to call classes by its core name,I know it’s wrong...

If the mirage Dodge nerf was a really heavy hammer Anet will put it back, as it m8 even be a testing ground to test it’s blinks and combat mobility, or add some skill that will increase endurance recover when performing some action.Maybe Anet is trying to make mirage player use other kind of utilities due the lack of one dodge.

What I would call is if players are qq due more effort is needed, that’s wrong...if a class requires skill to play it’s a good thing.

Nice ninja edit skills /s

If the mirage Dodge nerf was a really heavy hammer Anet will put it back, as it m8 even be a testing ground to test it’s blinks and combat mobility, or add some skill that will increase endurance recover when performing some action.Have you ever heard about chrono? Despite all outrage on mesmer subforum from pvp/pve players ... DID THEY PUT SELF SHATTER BACK? They never admit their mistakes.Maybe Anet is trying to make mirage player use other kind of utilities due the lack of one dodge.And mirage must be hard forced into taking every kind of "evade" utilities on 35-30s cd and ignore the rest of the class and thats only to survive a few seconds more? I dont believe in such stupidity, I'm sorry.What I would call is if players are qq due more effort is needed, that’s wrong...if a class requires skill to play it’s a good thing.Dude, as I said before, that you ignored... lets repeat once more...Reducing mirage evade to 1 it would be the same if we reduce necromancer shroud to 5k - therefore not even a single necromancer wouldnt be carried by the amount of shroud it has and pretend now necromancers now should carefully chose when to go shroud and tank the damage or use it for few abilities ! And the same for all classes in that manner.^This would make necromancer close to unplayble. But it would be true if I would say that NOW IT REQUIRE MORE SKILL to be good with it - its a good thing, dont qq due more effort is needed, that’s wrong. ©

Delete half of the current initiative on thief and that always would increase skill cap immensely and would require MORE skill to be good with t -its a good thing, dont qq due more effort is needed, that’s wrong. ©That's what you are telling me all this time.

I can suggest many ideas that would ruin their class and as excuse use your own sentence - "if players are qq due more effort is needed, that’s wrong...if a class requires skill to play it’s a good thing."

[pninak.1069]

I think the problem lies in what kind of armor the player is playing. I had a lot of good matches in WvW and find mirage still pretty viable. I use condi spec tho with Infinite horizon the people keep complaining about.

But lot of classes got the attack after and during a dodge.I think making grandmaster traits obsolete is a bad idea.

Now what I think anet could do is divide the dmg the caster can do to all illusions. so if I did 600 dmg alone it now will be 150 and each of my clones does 150 too instead of 0. this way infinite horizon would be balanced again and mes overall weapons would have a buff/nerf depending on weapon. I also agree that some traitlines like chaos should be reworked.

My comrad I often play with still uses Chrono so it still got its uses. As for pvp I tend to just play scourge in pvp, because I am lazy and want to farm more for reward tracks.

I think a lot of people misjudge based on current situation. I mean playing a zerker vs a tanky condi is obvious who might win. Hybrid is propably the best way to go overall in the entire game, because you don't really lose much on a nerf even if it affects both parts. There will always be players that don't have condi cleanse or stunbreaks with them.

Anet should continue with their nerfs/buffs and we have to adapt to the change.If a buff/nerf was really terminal for the class anet would realize that. They propably track the amount of players of each class in each game mode somehow. so if mesmer suddenly vanishes they propably know smth is off.