Where is the Balance? - Mirage Dodge

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi,

"No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more.

So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD

I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging.

But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy:

[Moradorin.6217]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi,

"No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more.

So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD

I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging.

But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy:

Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .boggle They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really)

[bravan.3876]

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi,

"No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more.

So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD

I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging.

But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy:

Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .

boggle

They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really)

Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue (in my opinion), it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked. Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has (followed by Inspiration) and was (maybe even still is, no clue atm) insanely broken. I agree to condi shatter traits being overnerfed with the time instead just touching the root problems like condi ambushes and condi clone normal autoattacks.

[phokus.8934]

This thread is like politicians talking about issues they know nothing about.

[Shadow.1345]

@Leonidrex.5649 @Odik.458700:43 wins vs necro01:57 wins vs spellbreaker)2:50 wins teamfight mid vs. necro & engi03:09 wins vs spellbreaker03:38 wins vs. necro04:21 wins vs. spellbreaker & rezzes reaper05:02 wins w/+1 vs. scrapper05:23 +1's necro to win05:56 wins match, 501-210, tops stats: kills, revives, damageRanked07:37 First match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Necro/Firebrand08:05 talks about winning every match vs. Necro/FB comps when queuing with a Necro09:17 loses first round11:44 loses 2nd round13:25 loses 3rd round and First Match15:03 Second match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Spellbreaker/Tempest17:55 wins first round19:55 wins 2nd round22:25 loses 3rd round27:03 loses 4th round29:29 wins 5th round and Second Match (161 ping)31:43 Third Match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Necro/Soulbeast (high ping)35:05 wins first round38:14 wins 2nd round40:28 loses 3rd round41:42 loses 4th round after game freezing (avg ping 496)44:21 wins 5th round and Third Match

That's 2 out of 3 Ranked matches won, the last one with lag that froze the game multiple times and the one loss against what is currently considered the most OP comp in 2v2 and 5 rounds won out of 12. The one match in 5v5 was won with top stats in damage and kills. Did you watch the video or just cherry pick parts that supported your confirmation bias?

[Hot Boy.7138]

the 50 endurance max is far too heavy of a nerf anet. you need to find another solution. this is not it.

[Senqu.8054]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro.

That's completely false. Those classes can just do damage with a dodge roll. Mesmer can cast Confusing Images (or any other attack/skill) while dodging. That's the difference.

And again you are showing us that you basically have no clue what you are talking about

BTW how is it a comparison to watch one of the best Mesmers in this game right now to play agains part time braindead bots who don’t even know what the skills they use are doin. Did you watch the video or just cherry pick...

I feel like you get farmed by Mesmers anyways

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shadow.1345 said:@Leonidrex.5649 @Odik.458700:43 wins vs necro01:57 wins vs spellbreaker)2:50 wins teamfight mid vs. necro & engi03:09 wins vs spellbreaker03:38 wins vs. necro04:21 wins vs. spellbreaker & rezzes reaper05:02 wins w/+1 vs. scrapper05:23 +1's necro to win05:56 wins match, 501-210, tops stats: kills, revives, damageRanked07:37 First match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Necro/Firebrand08:05 talks about winning every match vs. Necro/FB comps when queuing with a Necro09:17 loses first round11:44 loses 2nd round13:25 loses 3rd round and First Match15:03 Second match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Spellbreaker/Tempest17:55 wins first round19:55 wins 2nd round22:25 loses 3rd round27:03 loses 4th round29:29 wins 5th round and Second Match (161 ping)31:43 Third Match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Necro/Soulbeast (high ping)35:05 wins first round38:14 wins 2nd round40:28 loses 3rd round41:42 loses 4th round after game freezing (avg ping 496)44:21 wins 5th round and Third Match

That's 2 out of 3 Ranked matches won, the last one with lag that froze the game multiple times and the one loss against what is currently considered the most OP comp in 2v2 and 5 rounds won out of 12. The one match in 5v5 was won with top stats in damage and kills. Did you watch the video or just cherry pick parts that supported your confirmation bias?

so he goes 6 wins 7 loses?you sure did prove me wrong there.you also mist a small detail.He is duoqueue with what I think is sindrener?2 of the best queue together and this is the result, KEKW

[Shadow.1345]

@Senqu.8054 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro.

That's completely false. Those classes can just do damage with a dodge roll. Mesmer can cast Confusing Images (or any other attack/skill) while dodging. That's the difference.

And again you are showing us that you basically have no clue what you are talking about

BTW how is it a comparison to watch one of the best Mesmers in this game right now to play agains part time braindead bots who don’t even know what the skills they use are doin. Did you watch the video or just cherry pick...

I feel like you get farmed by Mesmers anyways

So Mirages can cast Confusing Images while using Mirage Cloak?Or is that warriors can use Hundred Blades during a dodge roll?I'm confused on where I am wrong on these. I mean, you're right I have no clue what I am talking about so I will stop arguing and ask you to teach me which of those things I am wrong about.

@Leonidrex.5649 I'm sorry for arguing with you. You're right this nerf is the wrong way to go about it and I have seen the light. What they should do is what other suggest is get rid of the conditions from scepter/staff clones and condiambush. I mean if we just make condimirage hit like a wet noodle it will make the extra 50 endurance worth it. Oh wait, nevermind that's not it. I mean move the damage from the clones on those things to the mesmer himself. I mean the autoattacks from the clones don't matter to core mesmer or chrono because there are no metabattle builds for them with condi so it doesn't matter how it effects those two. Also if we move the damage from the clones from condiambush to the mesmer I can drop IH and run EM instead for that sweet condicleanse without the expense of losing damage. ANet get this done.

[Aza.2105]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro.

That's completely false. Those classes can just do damage with a dodge roll. Mesmer can cast Confusing Images (or any other attack/skill) while dodging. That's the difference.

You get it! I don't understand why these people are trying to make a argument out of something like this. Its even stated on gw2 wiki that being able to dodge while attacking and dodge while disable is a unique feature of mirage cloak.

[bravan.3876]

@Aza.2105 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro.

That's completely false. Those classes can just do damage with a dodge roll. Mesmer can cast Confusing Images (or any other attack/skill) while dodging. That's the difference.

You get it! I don't understand why these people are trying to make a argument out of something like this. Its even stated on gw2 wiki that being able to dodge while attacking and dodge while disable is a unique feature of mirage cloak.

Ofc it is an unique feature in the exact form of MC, also no one (at least not me) denies that it is a strong feature. But for that it is nearly all a Mesmer gets for speccing into a whole traitline it is nothing that far away from what other classes have as core baseline in addition to their class specific strengths. I just get triggered from the overexaggerating bronze propaganda that it is "beyond broken". It is strong but thats it. And it is already balanced out by 3 inherent costs + several pre patch nerfs. MC was not overperforming at all anymore (pre patch). It was very good to remove the stunbreak on dodge, that was gamebreaking in a way you could not balance out. There are no other nerfs needed to MC. The only nerfs Condimirage needed were to the passive and op condi clone ambushes (or better a rework of the whole ambush design on condi weapons). And also additionally nerf condi clone normal autoattacks to be comparable with power clone autoattacks (means nearly zero dmg). Give shatters condi dmg back instead. Also Chaosline needs a rework (or more nerfs when it is still broken, what i don't know atm, for Viquing: IN MY OPINION).

These changes would

1. only nerf condi playstyle not power playstyle as a spin-off
2. not contradict the whole spec mechanic and killing skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity as a spin-off
3. would finally solve the root problems instead just nerfing around it (Condimirage and even Corecondimes still too passive and ez asf post patch, atmax it is less op, but maybe not even that)
4. would make Condimirage harder to play, less noobfriendly without dumbing down power to the same passive and dodge spam lvl

It is rly obvious, what makes it even harder to believe that a lot of ppl have such a hard time to see it, even after wall of text explanations from me. 99.9 % of ppl rly tried out the spec (means playing it for a bit and get some class knowledge) and look unbiased at it can see it.

Condimirage needed nerfs or at least a rework to less passive clone condi dmg back to more active shatter dmg, never saw any Mesmer main denying that. But the one dodge change is just stupid, misses the goals of solving the actual balance problems of the spec, just makes it less skillful and way more clunky.

Mesmer haters shoot themself into the foot when voting for that change, actually funny. Lets see when they will start to understand, maybe only when the grave is closing they put themselfs in...

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi,

"No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more.

So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD

I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging.

But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy:

Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .

boggle

They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really)

Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue, it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked.No.Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has.This traitline is the most gameplay defining mesmer has.What has to be done is to make other traitline impact gameplay like chaos and domination, not only a "I shatter with this passive damage boost or I shatter with this other damage boost choice" when you have the choice because there is clearly dead traits...

Have the decency to put a "in your opinion" words before spamming your vision trying to make it a facts.You can continue your chaos crusade for ages, I will not change anything about how people will play they will just take all passive boost from domi/duel/illusion if you remove 2 traitlines, then pewpewting from range. Nobody will gain anything.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi,

"No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more.

So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD

I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging.

But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy:

Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .

boggle

They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really)

Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue, it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked.No.Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has.This traitline is the most gameplay defining mesmer has.What has to be done is to make other traitline impact gameplay like chaos and domination, not only a "I shatter with this passive damage boost or I shatter with this other damage boost choice" when you have the choice because there is clearly dead traits...

Have the decency to put a "in your opinion" words before spamming your vision trying to make it a facts.

We will never agree to that. I think i explained very well why Chaosline has the highest lvl of passivity in the traitline and the lowest skillceiling from all (including elites, Inspiration is on second place). It also fits with my own ingame experience when playing Mesmer myself and fighting vs other Mesmers on different classes. Btw i made another definition post about the lvls of passivity maybe you can understand that one better than the other older one i made for you, where you had problems to understand what i mean because it was badly structured. But it is a big wall of text again, up to you if you want to waste time reading it. But i added IN MY OPINION just for you to the Chaosline needs nerf (or better rework) topic. I don't add an "in my opinion" to the anaysis of lvls of passivity because that is just a selfmade categorisation from facts and not an opinion.

[Ansau.7326]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:@Leonidrex.5649 @Odik.458700:43 wins vs necro01:57 wins vs spellbreaker)2:50 wins teamfight mid vs. necro & engi03:09 wins vs spellbreaker03:38 wins vs. necro04:21 wins vs. spellbreaker & rezzes reaper05:02 wins w/+1 vs. scrapper05:23 +1's necro to win05:56 wins match, 501-210, tops stats: kills, revives, damageRanked07:37 First match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Necro/Firebrand08:05 talks about winning every match vs. Necro/FB comps when queuing with a Necro09:17 loses first round11:44 loses 2nd round13:25 loses 3rd round and First Match15:03 Second match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Spellbreaker/Tempest17:55 wins first round19:55 wins 2nd round22:25 loses 3rd round27:03 loses 4th round29:29 wins 5th round and Second Match (161 ping)31:43 Third Match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Necro/Soulbeast (high ping)35:05 wins first round38:14 wins 2nd round40:28 loses 3rd round41:42 loses 4th round after game freezing (avg ping 496)44:21 wins 5th round and Third Match

That's 2 out of 3 Ranked matches won, the last one with lag that froze the game multiple times and the one loss against what is currently considered the most OP comp in 2v2 and 5 rounds won out of 12. The one match in 5v5 was won with top stats in damage and kills. Did you watch the video or just cherry pick parts that supported your confirmation bias?

so he goes 6 wins 7 loses?you sure did prove me wrong there.you also mist a small detail.He is duoqueue with what I think is sindrener?2 of the best queue together and this is the result, KEKW

Also, win/loses are not everything:

• First match against 5 pugs (loving duel against the engi, 13 skills dropped on him standing still and the guy was at 85% health lol).
• First ranked, they got rekted. Unable to put effective pressure, as soon as he drops everything all he has left is to run away and disegage the fight, leaving the thief in a 1vs2.
• Second match, 3-2 win but because of the thief doing the real pressure (comment 2 5k from ele steals). Ele was sustaining both of them for a lot of time, warrior was in disadvantage in that map that has such huge kite potential. Same as previously, clicking all skills to do no pressure and then running away to avoid dying.
• Third match, all we see is a condi mirage unable to kill a core necro only trying to survive. Matches were decided when thief put real pressure on him.

Mirage is in an awful state, and whole mesmer too. And here people trying to prove otherwise with top player footage against pugs and duoqueue that do nothing but prove it right...

[Simonoly.4352]

@Ansau.7326

I've just watched that video and that's exactly how it is now. Dump your damage on a particular area and then just...run around hoping you're not immediately focused. Waiting for your cooldowns to come back, waiting for your endurance to gradually creep up for that one dodge you have now, waiting for your weapon swap to come off cooldown so you can proc the energy sigil that is utterly essential now. It's all very engaging ?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Simonoly.4352 said:@Ansau.7326

I've just watched that video and that's exactly how it is now. Dump your damage on a particular area and then just...run around hoping you're not immediately focused. Waiting for your cooldowns to come back, waiting for your endurance to gradually creep up for that one dodge you have now, waiting for your weapon swap to come off cooldown so you can proc the energy sigil that is utterly essential now. It's all very engaging ?

thats mirage for you RN, hardest hitting skills like scepter 2 or axe ambush are dodges. if you dont use them for damage you deal no damage.if you use them for damage you die to a fart

[storm.3120]

@Ansau.7326 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:@Leonidrex.5649 @Odik.458700:43 wins vs necro01:57 wins vs spellbreaker)2:50 wins teamfight mid vs. necro & engi03:09 wins vs spellbreaker03:38 wins vs. necro04:21 wins vs. spellbreaker & rezzes reaper05:02 wins w/+1 vs. scrapper05:23 +1's necro to win05:56 wins match, 501-210, tops stats: kills, revives, damageRanked07:37 First match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Necro/Firebrand08:05 talks about winning every match vs. Necro/FB comps when queuing with a Necro09:17 loses first round11:44 loses 2nd round13:25 loses 3rd round and First Match15:03 Second match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Spellbreaker/Tempest17:55 wins first round19:55 wins 2nd round22:25 loses 3rd round27:03 loses 4th round29:29 wins 5th round and Second Match (161 ping)31:43 Third Match Mirage/Daredevil vs. Necro/Soulbeast (high ping)35:05 wins first round38:14 wins 2nd round40:28 loses 3rd round41:42 loses 4th round after game freezing (avg ping 496)44:21 wins 5th round and Third Match

That's 2 out of 3 Ranked matches won, the last one with lag that froze the game multiple times and the one loss against what is currently considered the most OP comp in 2v2 and 5 rounds won out of 12. The one match in 5v5 was won with top stats in damage and kills. Did you watch the video or just cherry pick parts that supported your confirmation bias?

so he goes 6 wins 7 loses?you sure did prove me wrong there.you also mist a small detail.He is duoqueue with what I think is sindrener?2 of the best queue together and this is the result, KEKW

Also, win/loses are not everything:

• First match against 5 pugs (loving duel against the engi, 13 skills dropped on him standing still and the guy was at 85% health lol).
• First ranked, they got rekted. Unable to put effective pressure, as soon as he drops everything all he has left is to run away and disegage the fight, leaving the thief in a 1vs2.
• Second match, 3-2 win but because of the thief doing the real pressure (comment 2 5k from ele steals). Ele was sustaining both of them for a lot of time, warrior was in disadvantage in that map that has such huge kite potential. Same as previously, clicking all skills to do no pressure and then running away to avoid dying.
• Third match, all we see is a condi mirage unable to kill a core necro only trying to survive. Matches were decided when thief put real pressure on him.

Mirage is in an awful state, and whole mesmer too. And here people trying to prove otherwise with top player footage against pugs and duoqueue that do nothing but prove it right...

Keep in mind, this 2 players with GOD OF PVP titles/mAT winners both and exceptionally good and supposed to mulch their opponents below their skill level but they do struggle a lot. As you said

Mirage is in an awful state, and whole mesmer too

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi,

"No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more.

So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD

I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging.

But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy:

Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .

boggle

They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really)

Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue, it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked.No.Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has.This traitline is the most gameplay defining mesmer has.What has to be done is to make other traitline impact gameplay like chaos and domination, not only a "I shatter with this passive damage boost or I shatter with this other damage boost choice" when you have the choice because there is clearly dead traits...

Have the decency to put a "in your opinion" words before spamming your vision trying to make it a facts.

We will never agree to that. I think i explained very well why Chaosline has the highest lvl of passivity in the traitline and the lowest skillceiling from all (including elites, Inspiration is on second place). It also fits with my own ingame experience when playing Mesmer myself and fighting vs other Mesmers on different classes. Btw i made another definition post about the lvls of passivity maybe you can understand that one better than the other older one i made for you, where you had problems to understand what i mean because it was badly structured. But it is a big wall of text again, up to you if you want to waste time reading it. But i added IN MY OPINION just for you to the Chaosline needs nerf (or better rework) topic. I don't add an "in my opinion" to the anaysis of lvls of passivity because that is just a selfmade categorisation from facts and not an opinion.

And I think I explained pretty well too while it has the same level of passivity as other traitline because I don't agree with all of your passivity definitions.And you own game experience is like mine, it's not a punch argument.So yeah we will never agree, particulary considering the lack of solutions who will automatically end with monoshatter gameplay if we remove chaos.

[Aza.2105]

@Odik.4587 said:Keep in mind, this 2 players with GOD OF PVP titles/mAT winners both and exceptionally good and supposed to mulch their opponents below their skill level but they do struggle a lot.

And you are measuring their skill level how?

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi,

"No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more.

So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD

I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging.

But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy:

Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .

boggle

They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really)

Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue, it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked.No.Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has.This traitline is the most gameplay defining mesmer has.What has to be done is to make other traitline impact gameplay like chaos and domination, not only a "I shatter with this passive damage boost or I shatter with this other damage boost choice" when you have the choice because there is clearly dead traits...

Have the decency to put a "in your opinion" words before spamming your vision trying to make it a facts.

We will never agree to that. I think i explained very well why Chaosline has the highest lvl of passivity in the traitline and the lowest skillceiling from all (including elites, Inspiration is on second place). It also fits with my own ingame experience when playing Mesmer myself and fighting vs other Mesmers on different classes. Btw i made another definition post about the lvls of passivity maybe you can understand that one better than the other older one i made for you, where you had problems to understand what i mean because it was badly structured. But it is a big wall of text again, up to you if you want to waste time reading it. But i added IN MY OPINION just for you to the Chaosline needs nerf (or better rework) topic. I don't add an "in my opinion" to the anaysis of lvls of passivity because that is just a selfmade categorisation from facts and not an opinion.

And I think I explained pretty well too while it has the same level of passivity as other traitline because I don't agree with all of your passivity definitions.And you own game experience is like mine, it's not a punch argument.So yeah we will never agree, particulary considering the lack of solutions who will automatically end with monoshatter gameplay if we remove chaos.

You put the random aegis block from PU on the same passive lvl with the same skill lvl and noobcarry potential as the vigor on crit trait in Duelling, what is objectively wrong, no matter how you categories the active-passive continuum based on reality. That has nothing to do with opinions.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi,

"No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more.

So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD

I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging.

But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy:

Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .

boggle

They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really)

Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue, it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked.No.Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has.This traitline is the most gameplay defining mesmer has.What has to be done is to make other traitline impact gameplay like chaos and domination, not only a "I shatter with this passive damage boost or I shatter with this other damage boost choice" when you have the choice because there is clearly dead traits...

Have the decency to put a "in your opinion" words before spamming your vision trying to make it a facts.

We will never agree to that. I think i explained very well why Chaosline has the highest lvl of passivity in the traitline and the lowest skillceiling from all (including elites, Inspiration is on second place). It also fits with my own ingame experience when playing Mesmer myself and fighting vs other Mesmers on different classes. Btw i made another definition post about the lvls of passivity maybe you can understand that one better than the other older one i made for you, where you had problems to understand what i mean because it was badly structured. But it is a big wall of text again, up to you if you want to waste time reading it. But i added IN MY OPINION just for you to the Chaosline needs nerf (or better rework) topic. I don't add an "in my opinion" to the anaysis of lvls of passivity because that is just a selfmade categorisation from facts and not an opinion.

And I think I explained pretty well too while it has the same level of passivity as other traitline because I don't agree with all of your passivity definitions.And you own game experience is like mine, it's not a punch argument.So yeah we will never agree, particulary considering the lack of solutions who will automatically end with monoshatter gameplay if we remove chaos.

You put the random aegis block from PU on the same passive lvl with the same skill lvl and noobcarry potential as the vigor on crit trait in Duelling, what is objectively wrong, no matter how you categories the active-passive continuum based on reality. That has nothing to do with opinions.

It has, poping crit on normal gameplay is different than activate stealth and more easy as you can just pewpew poping it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Aza.2105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Keep in mind, this 2 players with GOD OF PVP titles/mAT winners both and exceptionally good and supposed to mulch their opponents below their skill level but they do struggle a lot.

And you are measuring their skill level how?

by the time they play.by the rank they reach.by the word of mouth.by playing with them.by playing against them.by the AT they stream.by mAT they stream.Sindrener is the best thief I have personally played against maybe there are better ones, im not good at thief, but hes the best I met.

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:Mesmer haters shoot themself into the foot when voting for that change, actually funny. Lets see when they will start to understand, maybe only when the grave is closing they put themselfs in...

So this statement is confusing. Are they going to regret that they made Mesmer more powerful or is mesmer dead because Mirage got nerfed.?

[Jables.4659]

@Shadow.1345 said:The best solution to bring Mirage inline with other professions was to limit the endurance bar. now you have to use it skillfully instead of just spamming it for damage from Infinite Horizon.

I may be tempting fate for posting this reply since I received a 3 day suspension for saying something similar in a Mesmer thread, but I'll try to be careful about how I word this.

Condition Infinite Horizon builds have been a problem since PoF launch. IH by design allows the Mesmer to spend the majority of a fight kiting, dodging, stealthing, ect. while still dealing a large amount of damage. Its a very similar playstyle to the old Power Phantasm Mesmer from the pre-HoT days. Nerfing Mirage's endurance bar by 50% hurts every build using the Mirage E-Spec instead of the one's that were actually a problem. This has been a common theme with Mirage balancing throughout this past year. Core Mesmer damage and defensive utility were heavily gutted due to IH condition mirage being oppressive. It makes way more sense to remove Infinite Horizon from the game than it does to make broad nerfs that ruin the already underperforming mirage specs. I'm not saying they should just remove IH and call it a day. They would need to revisit some of the core Mesmer traits and skills and tune them up to accommodate the change, and perhaps make Ambush skills more impactful now that they aren't being spammed by 4 sources at once every few seconds throughout a fight.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Aza.2105 said:

@"Apolo.5942" said:I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf.Its been a toxic class since day 1.That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game.They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way.

Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else.

"No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi,

"No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more.

So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD

I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging.

But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy:

Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .

boggle

They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really)

Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue, it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked.No.Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has.This traitline is the most gameplay defining mesmer has.What has to be done is to make other traitline impact gameplay like chaos and domination, not only a "I shatter with this passive damage boost or I shatter with this other damage boost choice" when you have the choice because there is clearly dead traits...

Have the decency to put a "in your opinion" words before spamming your vision trying to make it a facts.

We will never agree to that. I think i explained very well why Chaosline has the highest lvl of passivity in the traitline and the lowest skillceiling from all (including elites, Inspiration is on second place). It also fits with my own ingame experience when playing Mesmer myself and fighting vs other Mesmers on different classes. Btw i made another definition post about the lvls of passivity maybe you can understand that one better than the other older one i made for you, where you had problems to understand what i mean because it was badly structured. But it is a big wall of text again, up to you if you want to waste time reading it. But i added IN MY OPINION just for you to the Chaosline needs nerf (or better rework) topic. I don't add an "in my opinion" to the anaysis of lvls of passivity because that is just a selfmade categorisation from facts and not an opinion.

And I think I explained pretty well too while it has the same level of passivity as other traitline because I don't agree with all of your passivity definitions.And you own game experience is like mine, it's not a punch argument.So yeah we will never agree, particulary considering the lack of solutions who will automatically end with monoshatter gameplay if we remove chaos.

You put the random aegis block from PU on the same passive lvl with the same skill lvl and noobcarry potential as the vigor on crit trait in Duelling, what is objectively wrong, no matter how you categories the active-passive continuum based on reality. That has nothing to do with opinions.

It has, poping crit on normal gameplay is different than activate stealth and more easy as you can just pewpew poping it.

Yes inside the active -passive continuum the timed use of an utilityskill providing stealth is more active than a passive vigor proc. Just as a passive vigor proc that still needs to be used by active and reactive dodging is more active/ less passive than a passive aegis proc, even more when the aegis proc is random so neither the Mesmer nor his opponent can active and tactically work with it at any point of the fight. That is exactly the point of a multi dimensional active-passive continuum. You put traits/ skills on same lvl inside of the continuum which are totally different when you look at more details, details that are OBJECTIVELY there and CAN'T BE DENIED. That has nothing to do with opinions. When you deny that, than you simply didn't understand what i wrote, than you are missing some facts.

Also why you even ague about an utility skill use? That has nothing to do with Chaosline. PU doesn't provide stealth on button use, it provides passive boon generation after an active use of an utility/weapon stealthskill. It is like comparing apples with oranges. PU is a trait that passively, fully automatically by game randomly generates boonprocs while stealthed which, in case of aegis, even allows to randomly lucky avoid (means zero playerskill involved) a big hit and survive.There are ofc more active things in the game than a vigor proc on crit, but a vigor proc on crit is also more active than most stuff you find in Chaosline. Not to mention that more active or more passive doesn't always means the more passive has lower skill ceiling, for proper analysis of that you need to count even more details into account.

@Shadow.1345 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Mesmer haters shoot themself into the foot when voting for that change, actually funny. Lets see when they will start to understand, maybe only when the grave is closing they put themselfs in...

So this statement is confusing. Are they going to regret that they made Mesmer more powerful or is mesmer dead because Mirage got nerfed.?

I am not surprised, that you are still confused, and that on a lvl leaves me open-mouthed. I am rly not sure here if you just want to trigger me. But if not, then we are moving in circles and i do not start a wall of text again to explain to you why also this question just shows that you still deny to understand facts. Also you made quite clear after my last big wall of text effort to explain something to you, that you are not interested/willing to discuss it as deep as it needs to be discussed to not be just a superficial nonsense propaganda lvl discussion at the crackerbarrel of a bar based on zero facts and no logic. I am not interested to do that.

Discussing with you both Viquing/ Shadow feels like: You say rain is dry. I say uhmm wait... no, rain is wet. You say: No that is your opinion and i do not agree to it. :joy: Sadly i cannot just go out of the door while its raining to prove me right here, i also cannot take a boat and sail around the world to prove that the earth is not flat... When logic itself doesn't convince then i have no tools anymore to go any further. I guess i should just stop at this point and say: Ok disagree, if you feel better than.