Where is the Balance? - Mirage Dodge

[Leonidrex.5649]

Played necro to plat 1.Now im playing mirage exclus, now im gold 2, almost gold 1.road to silver, show must go on!

[Kuma.1503]

@Lost Elegy.9276 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:Undo these changes anet everything about our class is punishing to us we lose out on so many things pressing half of our buttons. If we shatter we lose our clones and with that use of IH so every fight we take you as DEV are forcing us TO NOT USE four of our skills pretty much ever unless we have no clones up and we are shattering to daze or get vigor. Our Dodge our offensive and defensive tool giving us one dodge no forces us to pick offense or defense on our dodge and our shatters? No other class fights it self like this. And because of this you've locked our utilities skills since we have only 1 dodge we have to run blink and decoy or signet. NO CLASS HAS IS FORCED TO REDUCE THERE OWN POWER OR SURVIVABILITY TO WORK LIKE THIS ACTIVELY, sure statwise when you pick your amulet and you pick your traitline everyone makes those choices.

BUT YOUR FORCING MESMERS TO MAKE THAT CHOICE NOT ONLY IN CHARACTER BUILDING STATLINES TRAITLINES BUT IN ALL ACTIVE USE OF HALF MY BAR? INCLUDING MY GOD kitten DODGE? EVEN USE OF MY UTILITIES ARE COMPLETELY 100% REACTIVE NOW.

I can't shatter when i want.I can't dodge when i want.I can't use my utilities when i want because i have one dodge and now my utility bar is a kitten version of my endurance bar.I can't even use jaunt as i want because we have terrible condition removal and most of us run Lyssa so jaunt doubles as condition cleanse.

And you wonder why mesmers just end up making 3 clones and just doing nothing its because we can't do anything at all EVEN IF WE WANTED because all of our tools reveal us or you guessed it completely reactive.

Eles can press most there bar without much worry at all.Wars can press most there bar without much worry at all.Rangers can press most there bar without much worry at all.Thieves can press most there bar without much worry at all.Rev can press most there bar without much worry at all.Engineers can press most there bar without much worry at all.Gaurdians can press most there bar without much worry at all.

Mesmers top bar is mostly unusable, left side is mostly unusable because one dodge makes it a reactive bar not a proactive bar, our Elite is half blocked because of one dodge and no condition cleanse and screw you guys with elusive mind no one is gonna run it is trash and you know it fix it, Can't dodge if we want to even just to get some space some extra movement that every class dodge dodge rolling cause its slightly faster then running specially if your safe and to boot were punished for saving our dodge because we have one bar of dodge and not dodging is actively losing dps but in dodging we actively lose defense (please tell me what class has to deal with this?).

People complain about mirage passive gameplay this is why because almost every decision we make has a huge draw back and not like and OH no i just missed this big damage cool down i guess i gotta play defense now, its a oh no ima die now draw back. So you know what mirages do? Nothing. Why? Because have the choices we make draw backs are so huge its not worth it hell were so squishy that using a weapon skill is scary cause u don't wanna reveal where you are because if u do your dead.

Thats my full view of the matter.Ive quit the class all together i'm done with this now its clear to me thats Anet as a company and the gw2 community just does want this class to work in pvp in any meaningful way.

Honestly, the issue is Mesmer itself. The class is just a clusterduck of design ideas that DO NOT mesh well. A summoner class that is also an illusionist that also is a heavy crowd control class that is ALSO a nuke machine that is ALSO an evasion machine that is ALSO... You get the point. The class is just a pain to fight, and a lot of these core class traits are to blame. Condi mesmer wouldn't be so cancer if the illusions did NO DAMAGE and didn't apply debuffs. But they do. Meaning the mesmer can just spawn illusions/phantasms and play super defensively while the illusions stack debuffs for free damage. If we look at Mesmer in its unnerfed glory?1) It is a nuking machine with access to 6 seconds of teamwide stealth every 60 seconds and a total uptime of over 12 seconds of personal stealth. It can easily pump out over 20 thousand damage in under a second FROM STEALTH in a combo that requires no skill to pull off and can be done with a macro.2) It is a class that summons an endless stream of minions that block skillshots and projectiles. Unless the enemy has piercing shots on all their attacks, them being able to hit you isn't just based on if they can find you anymore.3) Mesmer is a class with access to over 6 seconds of CONTINUOUSLY re-apply daze. You need over a stack of 7 stability to endure the daze chain, and stun breaks won't stop it. In terms of ganking power, the daze spam alone can instantly end a fight.4) Incredibly annoying to fight. Unlike other classes, who at most have a stealth to make you lose targetting of them, Mesmer has the uniquely frustrating ability to teleport around and just remove themselves from your target. Because why not? Fighting mesmer is not a fight between you and the opponent. It's a 2v1 fight between you + the game's mechanics and the opponent. On top of disjointing, the class is well known for their insane mobility and constantly movement.5) Uniquely frustrating to fight. It's entirely possible for a mesmer to completely evade your attacks in the short time it takes them to burst you down. I've had several fights against the same mesmer where I either don't hit them a single time OR kill them before they can even hurt me. Having such a flip-flopping extreme between wins and losses is BAD class design. There simply isn't another way to describe it.

If I had to choose, I would rather Mesmer be outright deleted and have something else take its place. Seeing as that won't happen, the class just needs to be completely redesigned. If they want to be an illusionist, they shouldn't be harming people with ILLUSIONS. Smoke and Mirror characters are fine, but not when the smoke is actually poison gas that slowly kills you while you desperately smash all the mirrors to find them. If they want to be a unique spin of mental magic? Go for it! You can't have both. It causes way too many problems.

If Anet did this, Mirage would have to gain something in exhange otherwise it's effectively removed from PvE. Bosses don't get disoiriented by mesmers blinking about the place. Most moves that would kill you are AoE, in which case clones are effectively useless. As a result, their illusions have to have a damage component to them.

I believe that Anet found a clever balance with Shatters, allowing Mesmers to convert their illusions into damage at the cost of losing those illusions. Mirage should have been an elite spec that empowers shatters rather than empowering their dodge, perhaps replace Mind Wrack with Infinite Horizon. Upon pressing F2, you and your active clones ambush your target. Upon completing the ambush, your clones are destroyed. Anet could even play around with giving the other shatters their own effects.

Additionally, they should have given Scrapper's tradeoff (-180 vitality) to mirage instead of -50% endurance. Let mirage be slippery, but also make it innately squishy so that the player is rewarded when they're able to pick the real one out of the crowd.

Why they gave the tanky bruiser specialization, which gives up some damage in favor of defense the additional trade off of... less defense? I'll never know.

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:

Sry when it felt rude to you, but i just mentioned a fact here. I even did the effort and tried to explain to you why condi clone ambushes are passive... even Mesmer mains agree to that.

Reread this statement you made as if someone said it to you and decide for yourself if it was rude?

@bravan.3876 said:

Did i write in chinese or something? Explaining to you what i mean would rly be too much work, you are far away from any deeper understanding. :scream:

Because if you think telling somebody you think they are "too far away from 'deeper understanding' to explain something because it would be too much work then I will feel free to speak down to you on regular basis as if you are too stupid to understand anything. It has nothing to do with speaking facts, it the insults you keep throwing in. It is the condescending remarks you make.

Btw i am mulitclass player so don't even try the Mesmer main thing on me

I didn't call you a Mesmer main, you assumed it. You keep talking about how everyone else doesn't understand the class. I just figured since you act like everyone else is less knowledgeable than you then you must be the best at it. I play Mesmer mostly in PvE and play it a lot in PvP but I also play other classes. In fact based on the number of matches I have played Thief is the class I have played the most.

There is no free will when using it pure offensive is totally useless and unnecessary, when it literally is a missplay and a waste to do it. Holy cow. Ofc theoretically i can use it offensive but it would be stupid to do so (in particular now with only one dodge). Ofc we all have the free will to end our lifes by jumping from a cliff... the choice isn't that free anymore when you want to live.

Then don't use it purely offensively. That is your choice. With Scepter 2, Staff 2, Staff 5 and Distortion I can risk using it offensive if I want. The whole point of the nerf is to force you to ahve to make that decision instead of just using it spamingly. Except according to you you can't use it defensively either because you are "forced" to spam it.

Sry that you feel this way. On the other side it means, that i can stop using my time and saving my energy i use for you when all i get for it is to be called arrogant.

Well because you speak with condescending words like:

@bravan.3876 said:But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand

Also you were the one who started the conversation by responding to something I said. You can stop responding to me at any time.

@bravan.3876 said:Ever thought about you rly might don't understand everything here? That i do not say that to feel superior or because i have a too big ego or to hurt you, that i simply say that because it is just true? Sry when my wall of text of explainings make you feel like a dumb person.

Except you really don't explain things:

Passive is not = passive. There are massive differences in meanings of the word passive and in skill ceiling from different types of passives in the game (from active-active, over active-passive, over passive-active, to passive-passive traits/ skills). Also that something is active-active doesn't mean it is necesarry high skill ceiling. But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand why clone ambushes on condi weapons are mostly passive (active-passive with focus on the passive part) while power clone ambushes are active- semi passive (with focus on active- semi active part) and while a totally game only generated random aegis block (from PU trait for example) on a burst skill makes the player luckily survive a 10k hit is passive-passive and the most noobcarry and unhealthy, non reactive, non tactical toxic kitten in the game.

This isn't an explanation, this is you just telling me your opinion. It has no details to backup why ambush with a axe, scepter or staff is 'passive' but if you do it with a sword or greatsword is 'active' when both are just pushing a button. Now I get that you are frustrated with me not being persuaded here but if you are not persuading me that is a failure on your part, not on me. I'm not sure what you want to get out of this. I'm just a nobody. You need to convince CMC. Here is his Twitch stream link. Just go on when he is streaming and convince him because so far you are doing a bad job of convincing me:https://www.twitch.tv/cmcgw2

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

Sry when it felt rude to you, but i just mentioned a fact here. I even did the effort and tried to explain to you why condi clone ambushes are passive... even Mesmer mains agree to that.

Reread this statement you made as if someone said it to you and decide for yourself if it was rude?

@bravan.3876 said:

Did i write in chinese or something? Explaining to you what i mean would rly be too much work, you are far away from any deeper understanding. :scream:

Because if you think telling somebody you think they are "too far away from 'deeper understanding' to explain something because it would be too much work then I will feel free to speak down to you on regular basis as if you are too stupid to understand anything. It has nothing to do with speaking facts, it the insults you keep throwing in. It is the condescending remarks you make.

Btw i am mulitclass player so don't even try the Mesmer main thing on me

I didn't call you a Mesmer main, you assumed it. You keep talking about how everyone else doesn't understand the class. I just figured since you act like everyone else is less knowledgeable than you then you must be the best at it. I play Mesmer mostly in PvE and play it a lot in PvP but I also play other classes. In fact based on the number of matches I have played Thief is the class I have played the most.

There is no free will when using it pure offensive is totally useless and unnecessary, when it literally is a missplay and a waste to do it. Holy cow. Ofc theoretically i can use it offensive but it would be stupid to do so (in particular now with only one dodge). Ofc we all have the free will to end our lifes by jumping from a cliff... the choice isn't that free anymore when you want to live.

Then don't use it purely offensively. That is your choice. With Scepter 2, Staff 2, Staff 5 and Distortion I can risk using it offensive if I want. The whole point of the nerf is to force you to ahve to make that decision instead of just using it spamingly. Except according to you you can't use it defensively either because you are "forced" to spam it.

Sry that you feel this way. On the other side it means, that i can stop using my time and saving my energy i use for you when all i get for it is to be called arrogant.

Well because you speak with condescending words like:

@bravan.3876 said:But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand

Also you were the one who started the conversation by responding to something I said. You can stop responding to me at any time.

@bravan.3876 said:Ever thought about you rly might don't understand everything here? That i do not say that to feel superior or because i have a too big ego or to hurt you, that i simply say that because it is just true? Sry when my wall of text of explainings make you feel like a dumb person.

Except you really don't explain things:

Passive is not = passive. There are massive differences in meanings of the word passive and in skill ceiling from different types of passives in the game (from active-active, over active-passive, over passive-active, to passive-passive traits/ skills). Also that something is active-active doesn't mean it is necesarry high skill ceiling. But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand why clone ambushes on condi weapons are mostly passive (active-passive with focus on the passive part) while power clone ambushes are active- semi passive (with focus on active- semi active part) and while a totally game only generated random aegis block (from PU trait for example) on a burst skill makes the player luckily survive a 10k hit is passive-passive and the most noobcarry and unhealthy, non reactive, non tactical toxic kitten in the game.

This isn't an explanation, this is you just telling me your opinion. It has no details to backup why ambush with a axe, scepter or staff is 'passive' but if you do it with a sword or greatsword is 'active' when both are just pushing a button. Now I get that you are frustrated with me not being persuaded here but if you are not persuading me that is a failure on your part, not on me. I'm not sure what you want to get out of this. I'm just a nobody. You need to convince CMC. Here is his Twitch stream link. Just go on when he is streaming and convince him because so far you are doing a bad job of convincing me:

https://www.twitch.tv/cmcgw2

The explanation why condi ambushes compared to power ambushes are way more passive was this one you again ignored:

@bravan.3876 said:

Last try to explain at least the basics about why condi clones ambushes are passive (even though the player has to press the dodge button): When a Mirage can dodge only pure defensive because the clone ambush skills do too high dmg (and only dmg, no effect that needs to be timed well to hit the target in a good moment that needs a different timing from just pure defensive dodges) than there is no need to care for pure offensive dodges to time ambushattacks from clones active and reactive for the reward (pure defensive dodges are enough to get enough reward out of the dodge IH/ ambush mechanic), means then clone ambush dmg becomes a completely passive side effect from dodging pure defensive. And no Condimirage player needs to think about anything of it. They just dodge when needed to evade an attack and clones do some stuff as a side effect the player has not to care for at all. What is so hard to understand with that?

Never said i was polite (but also not insulting on purpose either) when saying you have no deeper understanding. Your view on the whole topic seems pretty one dimensional to me and i rly have no clue how to talk to someone like you then. Might be my incompetence to explain well and not your incompetence to understand. This is no insult it is just me explaining why i don't know what to do with you. No clue how to say it more kind. I am not polite, i am honest, sometimes both at same time is not possible. As said it was not my goal to hurt your feeling or insult you. If it did hurt your feelings then i apologize!

To everything else: i give up, when you even deny that i explained anything until now, then i rly think we are just too far away from each other in whatever aspects to ever get to a point of understanding each other. Yes true and already said it myself i don't need to convince you and i am not mad that you are not convinced. It is not my problem in the end anyway. I already was at the point to say you are right and i am wrong but at least i have my peace then.

Except you really don't explain things:

Passive is not = passive. There are massive differences in meanings of the word passive and in skill ceiling from different types of passives in the game (from active-active, over active-passive, over passive-active, to passive-passive traits/ skills). Also that something is active-active doesn't mean it is necesarry high skill ceiling. But that leads way too far for someone can't even understand why clone ambushes on condi weapons are mostly passive (active-passive with focus on the passive part) while power clone ambushes are active- semi passive (with focus on active- semi active part) and while a totally game only generated random aegis block (from PU trait for example) on a burst skill makes the player luckily survive a 10k hit is passive-passive and the most noobcarry and unhealthy, non reactive, non tactical toxic kitten in the game.

This isn't an explanation, this is you just telling me your opinion

Ofc it is an explanation, but you didn't think further by your own based on what i explained already even with examples. I could start a big wall of text to explain including intuitively accessible examples what i mean with active-active to passive-passive while you can distinguish/ subclassify that even further. But the way our discussion was going until now makes me afraid of wasting another big amount of time and effort for a big wall of text you then will just deny is explaining anything (and is only an opinion i will pressure into your brain just to be right and just to feel good/ pro when ppl agree to me) and you will just devalue it again. But ok, i try one last time.I did a little bit explain that already by giving an example for active-passive, active-semi passive and passive-passive. But lets do it step by step:

NOTICE the the meaning of passive-passive or active -passive etc is: the first adjective is about how active or passive is the ACTIVATION of a trait/ skill. The second adjective is about how active or passive is the REWARD/ EFFECT of the skill/ trait after activation.

1. Passive - passive: Example for a passive-passive trait is PU. The completely passive from the game generated random proc of aegis. First passive because the player do not need to press a button for the boon to pop up. You press the button for the stealth and then the trait passively generates boons while stealthed. Means while in stealth the boon genertion happens completely without the player actively press a button and times specific boons at specific time. Second passive because the boon itself only provides a passive facetank effect will carry the player while neither the Mesmer nor his opponent can work with that random proc in an active and tactical way. = passive-passive. Maybe an even easier to understand example is Defy Pain and Last Stance traits in Warriors Defense traitline or the Thief trait Instant Reflexes (automatically dodges attacks when hp drops under 50%). Here neither the player needs to press a button to activate and for that can't time the effect/ reward of the trait/ skill himself, also the skill/trait rewards are on the more passive side by providing pretty non reactive, passive facetank sustain. The game plays itself here more of less (the player could be afk during the whole acticvation of the skill/trait automatically from the game and for most parts of the effect/reward duration without dying). In a previous post to someone else i called that passives from category One. These passives-passive traits/ skills have a very low skill ceiling/ floor and a high amount of noobcarry effect. The only active and a little bit skillful part from some of them is, that you need to care for not wasting another defensive cooldown while the passive noobsaver effect is running (like do not use the endure pain utility or a dodge for a power dmg attack while passive endure pain is still running). So the best and most passive example for passive-passive is indeed the random aegis proc from PU.

2. active-passive: Example condi clone ambushes (NOT the Mesmers OWN ambushes, only the clone ones). Active activation because you need to press a button (as you mentioned yourself already), but then passive in effect/ reward because the main purpose for the button use was dodging and that purely defensive, because offensive dodges only for hitting the clone ambush reward well timed and differently timed from pure defensive dodges on Condimirage never made sense, never were necessary/needed to do and to consider, means the dmg the clones then do completely by themself from their ambushes is only a passive secondary side effect the player gets on top of the main reason he dodges for without the need to actively work with that. Looking into the brain of that player in those moments you only will see him thinking about dodging an attack, you will not see a little thought like "oh i dodge here because that is a very good moment to hit some dmg from my clones". You barely have that active pure offensive use on purpose only to finish a target on Condimirage, otherwise a Condimirage will not think a single time about dodging for dmg, he only thinks about dodging for staying alive and suddenly the target is dead when the clones can hit their stuff. Active-passive traits/skills have a higher skill ceiling than passive-passive stuff but still a pretty low skill ceiling/floor and a high noobcarry effect.

3. active- semi passive: Example power weapon ambushes from clones (sword in the first place, gs is a bit more passive than sword but thanks to might and vuln still less passive than condiambushes and also less op because the dmg from gs clone ambushes is laughable by itself). You use a button to activate the ambushes on clones so "active in activation" (just like on condi clones ambushes). The effect you activate then is also active at least on pure offensive dodges or dodges you do on purpose for both rewards (dodging an attack while still getting a well timed interrupt on the follow up attack of your opponent, you maybe even actively switched to sword before that dodge for that purpose, for example you expect a Warrior to do the shield bash- f1 cc-burst combo, so you switch to sword, dodge the shield cc on sword and the clone will interrupt the f1 cast while you can leap in the other direction to get some distance again). Compare that move to just some side effect condi dmg on a pure defensive dodge on Condimirage... you rly think that is the same? That are totally different lvls of active-passive elements in a class mechanic, and one has super low to no skill ceiling (simple condi dmg application without any special timing from player side, so just a pure passive side effect from pure defensive dodges on Condimirage what is even op in how high the dmg from the condistacks is) and the other one is a very high skill ceiling, high iq outplay move on a Powermirage with IH). It gets even more clear when you look at pure offensive dodges to get a perfectly timed interrupt from a sword clone who is near a target hiding out of los to cover his heal. So you dodge without being pressured so that the clone leaps behind the wall to your target and interrupts the heal. Means not only the button use for the activation of the dodge is active but also the effect/ reward from the ambush was actively timed by the player for a compeltely different purpose than only evading an attack (instead just getting some dmg or not as a passive side effect what wasn't timed for its own purpose by the player on Condimirage). Condiambushes have no additional effect creating the need and forcing the player into pure offensive dodges timed differently from pure defensive dodges to optimize dodge rewards from IH/ambushes. Also the condi dmg on clone ambushes is that high, that it is already rewarding enough to only dodge pure defensive for only clone ambush dmg. On gs even when you dodge with 3 clones up, they do not rly do much without the Mesmers own ambush in addition (pure dmg wise). They have more value from applying vulnerability. But the vulnerability duration is not that high, means that needs to be timed before a burst from the Mirage itself or when his team wants to burst in teamfights. That is an active aspect for active timing clone ambushes for a differnt purpose than the dodge itself and will be executed often without the Mirage being pressured at all, simple for the purpose of a burst preparation. Means here the Mirage has to "waste" a dodge only for a well timed vulnerability application without the need to doge an attack. That creates opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodge management and adds skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity to the Mirage mechanic you simply don't have on Condiweapons. And what also gets completely contradicted and for that destroyed by overnerfing dodge resources, so these offensive active and well timed reactive dodges for different purposes than only dodging attacks will be impossible, aka why the one dodge bar change will double dumb down in particular Powermirage builds by a lot while not even solving the problem of too passive and op in dmg condi clone ambushes. I called power weapon clone ambushes active-SEMI passive because also here you can have a passive side effect because ofc the clone ambushes also activate when the player only wants to evade an attack and do not think about a well timed interrupt from clones at all. In that moment (of a pure defensive dodge with no other active and on purpose goal from the player) the clone ambushes from gs and sword are also just passive side effects. But here this is balanced because neither sword clones nor gs clones ambushes have that high rewards, that they can kill something by its own. Means sword and also gs have per se way better designed ambushes by being more about effects/ utility than only pure dmg (what forces to use dodges also pure offensive to perfectly time ambush rewards and the need to time them differently from pure defensive dodges). And their effects are also not too strong to make them worth only hitting as not well timed pure passive side effect from pure defensive dodges. That is the whole background why Condimirage is op and passive and low skill ceiling but Powermirage is not op and way less passive with way higher skill ceiling, even though both have same access to MC. Active-semi passive skills/traits can have very high skill ceiling/ floor even though they still have passive elements in some situations (only passive on pure defensive dodges).

4. active-(semi-)active: Example the Mirages own ambushes (both condi and power), you need to press a button to dodge and to activate the ambush window and then need to press another button to activate the ambush attack while the player has freedom of choice to time both of it differently, initially timed the dodge (offensive or defensive or both at same time) and then timed the ambush skill itself inside the ambush window for reactive and tactical outplays of the opponent. Means the activation of the ambush window just as well as the activation of the ambush itself is both actively controlled and timed by the player itself. Semi active i only called it because the activation of the ambush window is directly coupled to the button use for the dodge (means in case when you dodge only pure defensive and do not use the ambush skill afterwards, the activation of the ambush window was only a passive not from player intended side effect from pressing dodge button only for the sake of dodging). Active-active skills have a good chance of being high skill ceiling but when they are too strong they also can have lower skill ceiling (for example there are gs ambush spam power builds using Illusionary ambush and doing nothing else than spamming phantams and gs ambushes from range. This playstyle is ofc also not that impressive in terms of how much skill it needs to be played well. This playstyle is possible because Mesmers own gs ambush is a bit too strong in dmg and because Illusionary Ambush is way too strong).

5. (semi-)passive-active: Example Critical Infusion trait in Duelling. The vigor proc is passive (automatically) generated by the game (at least more passive than a player using an utility skill that provides vigor on button use and for that can be timed by the player when needed). It also is more passive because the game generates crits automatically, the player has zero influence on when the crit and for that the vigor proc will happen. Still it is not 100% passive activation because the player cannot be afk and vigor will proc. The player needs to play the game and actively use buttons (for different purposes but still needs to use buttons) to make the trait activation possible. Thats why i say SEMI passive. For a better understanding: 100% passive in activation would the trait be, when it would be like: every time the Mesmer get hit by an critical strike the Mesmer gains vigor. That would be passive-active not just semi passive-active. Because now the player gains vigor even when he does absolutely nothing himself. He could be afk and the vigor would proc when another player hits him with a crit. After the vigor proc is passive, the reward from that proc is active. You have to use that vigor active. That is nothing carrying compared to a lucky random aegis block from PU can mean the difference between being killed by a 10k hit or not get hit at all. That is not a trait forces passive (and non reactive facetank) gameplay, it is not a trait carrying the player by making the game play itself or carrying the player just by being up on the buffbar (like a passive random protection proc, what is way more passive than a passive vigor proc and has way lower skill ceiling and way higher noobcarry potential). Critical Infusion is a trait supports active defensive gameplay. It is active after the passive activation of the proc itself. The endurance the player gets from vigor he has to use by pressing the dodge button for reactive and well timed dodges (offensive or defensive in case of Mirage or other classes with dodge-traits). The player can waste this resource for active defensive gameplay by timing dodges wrong (for example panic random dodges). That is 100% active, it just highers the resource for active defensive gameplay. As long as the trait reward is not too high (like perma vigor for braindead nearly perma dodge chaining) these traits will not effect skill ceiling/ floor from a build using that trait in a negative way. it will not carry the player by covering mistakes. Passive-active traits are completely fair traits, legitim well made skill design no game can exist without.

6. passive-active: (see No. 5)

7. i think that were enough examples to make the categorisation in all its multidimentional nature comprehensible. At least i hope that?

If not:Here i explained it in a different way for someone else. It was a badly structured post what was the main reason @"viquing.8254" did not rly understand me there that well either. But maybe helps when you see the same topic just explained with different words and categories than i did for you now:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1159120#Comment_1159120

Btw when you now answer like: You didn't read because you don't want to talk with me any further because you accuse me of just being arrogant and that i am just trying to convince you from a simple subjective opinion so i can feel like a pro and feel superior, than i jump out of the window...

[Xstein.2187]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.Thank you so much.

Before I read your post, based on the whine of the others I thought anet removed distorsion, mirrors, stealth, leaps and teleports from mirage too and that poor mirages are left with one way to avoid damage.

Srsly... it's ridiculous. All these whine posts should be saved for the next time a competent mirage player shows up and wins games as an example of: you suck a the game, you don't know your class mechanics, you don't know your options.

lol, 1v1 me, you mirage me necro. ( mesmer counters necro btw )if you manage to win once out of 10 fights ill give you 200g, how does that sounds?

I don't play anymore, so I'll chip in 1,000g as long as it is recorded.

[storm.3120]

@Xstein.2187 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.Thank you so much.

Before I read your post, based on the whine of the others I thought anet removed distorsion, mirrors, stealth, leaps and teleports from mirage too and that poor mirages are left with one way to avoid damage.

Srsly... it's ridiculous. All these whine posts should be saved for the next time a competent mirage player shows up and wins games as an example of: you suck a the game, you don't know your class mechanics, you don't know your options.

lol, 1v1 me, you mirage me necro. ( mesmer counters necro btw )if you manage to win once out of 10 fights ill give you 200g, how does that sounds?

I don't play anymore, so I'll chip in 1,000g as long as it is recorded.I can be that mirage for memes and free gold? Also what build? (XTEIN GIB ME UR GOLD!111)@bravan.3876 you said you are done but still posting 9999999999999999999 words walls even worse than Trevor, staph

[Lalary.3561]

@DiLlYbOb.8693 said:You do understand how difficult it was to kill a mirage before this patch right, not only can they stack up torment, bleed and confusion with min of 10 stacks each, their dodges also made them impossible to kill and tbh mirage deserves this nerf considering the fact that this op bs has been in the game since pof

Rich coming from some thief player.

[bravan.3876]

@Odik.4587 said:@bravan.3876 you said you are done but still posting 9999999999999999999 words walls even worse than Trevor, staph

Shadow more or less asked for it^^ It was exhausting, unfun and very time consuming. So i wasn't happy either that i more of less had to do it. Lucky for you, you can just ignore it ez.

[Strider.7849]

@Ansau.7326 said:Have been trying many mesmer builds since yesterday: power mirage, condi mirage, power core, condi core, even I slotted filthy chrono for first time in 6 months.Mirage is dead in PvP and WvW.Chrono is dead in PvP and WvW.Core mesmer is meh in PvP and dead in WvW.

Anet just killed one of the 9 professions by listening the noisy forum community carried by passives, smashing keyboard sustain and skills doing +50% health bar damage in just 1 hit.

Core Mesmer is still really strong in WvW - I can't speak for PvP because I find it boring. A lot of you new mesmers don't know how to play the class and relied on the passive playstyle of mirage pre-nerf. One of the biggest failures this game has had in recent years was giving people the ability to attack while defending. Mirage not only did that better than any other class, you could straight up kill people while being nearly completely invulnerable through rotating dodges, distortion, reflects, blocks. What I want if/when they return the extra dodge is for them to remove infinite horizon OR make all clones on mirage do zero damage/condi damage and give them equal health/toughness to the Mesmer and rework some of the damage back into the mesmer itself.

[bravan.3876]

@Strider.7849 said:

@"Ansau.7326" said:Have been trying many mesmer builds since yesterday: power mirage, condi mirage, power core, condi core, even I slotted filthy chrono for first time in 6 months.Mirage is dead in PvP and WvW.Chrono is dead in PvP and WvW.Core mesmer is meh in PvP and dead in WvW.

Anet just killed one of the 9 professions by listening the noisy forum community carried by passives, smashing keyboard sustain and skills doing +50% health bar damage in just 1 hit.

A lot of you new mesmers don't know how to play the class and relied on the passive playstyle of mirage pre-nerf. One of the biggest failures this game has had in recent years was giving people the ability to attack while defending. Mirage not only did that better than any other class, you could straight up kill people while being nearly completely invulnerable through rotating dodges, distortion, reflects, blocks. What I want if/when they return the extra dodge is for them to remove infinite horizon OR make all clones on mirage do zero damage/condi damage and give them equal health/toughness to the Mesmer and rework some of the damage back into the mesmer itself.

Facepalm much, there are so many wrong statements included, that i don't even know where to start (it also reminds me why doing the effort to write a wall of text with explaining balance basics and class mechanic basics, is completely useless, ppl don't read it and just state the same nonsense as the ppl did before i responded to them). Actually triggering.

But enjoy the new even more passive and lower skill ceiling Condimirage (and now also passive, dodge spammy Powermirage) playstyle. Ofc perma stealth non interactive oneshot core PU was so much more skilled to play :joy:

Still waiting for the complains to start about new Mirage. Waiting for the moment when ppl realize that less op in dmg deosn't necessarily means harder to play/ less noobcarry and when they realize that the dmg nerfs gets compensated by everything else being nerfed too (almost everything, cough Necro, cough FB, cough Weaver, cough condi Rev, cough Ranger pets). So you literally have nothing reached except making even more Mirage builds passive and noobfriendly. The less in dmg comes with very high costs in terms of lower skill ceiling, less tactical deepness and less mechanical complexity for the whole spec not only for still passive and ex (?)-op Condistyle.

Don't make my popcorn get cold pls.

I wil enjoy the stifling malicious joy from all clueless Mirage haters when they realize the one dodge change completely contradicted their goal of getting a more skilled Condimirage. Enjoy your dumbed down game.

https://giphy.com/gifs/evil-newman-arz9UYo8bCo4E

https://media.giphy.com/media/rLcaX8Yh4bss0/giphy.gif

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"bravan.3876" said:https://giphy.com/gifs/evil-newman-arz9UYo8bCo4E

https://media.giphy.com/media/rLcaX8Yh4bss0/giphy.gif

Gave you a thumbs up for Newman alone.But I'll tell you something they better canonize you when you die, you've the patience of a Saint.

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:

https://giphy.com/gifs/evil-newman-arz9UYo8bCo4E

https://media.giphy.com/media/rLcaX8Yh4bss0/giphy.gif

Gave you a thumbs up for Newman alone.But I'll tell you something they better canonize you when you die, you've the patience of a Saint.

Newman ftw! :+1:

If i believe Shadow im not a patient Saint, im an arrogant, egotistic and stubborn succer, crying for attention and deference from others by occupying their brains with my subjective ideas and don't accept constructive back talk. How different external perception can be... i am for sure annoying with my wall of text posts, we all can agree to that at least i guess :joy:Also i rly do not feel patient anymore, i more feel like crushing my head against a wall because that would give me less headache than acting in this forum and fighting for class wide skillful balance not leadign into lower skill ceiling and more clunkyness and less gameplay flow of all classes while trying to be as objective and least biased as possible.

[pninak.1069]

Now I play all classes myself, but started as a mesmer main. I think what most people misunderstand about mirage is the way the mechanic works. you dodge and get an ambush attack. so if you use a dodge this is one less opportunity to evade next attack. and the mirage mirrors can be exploited by the opponent, because missing to use one is a big chunk of lost dmg. Infinite horizon is so strong only, because the ambush skills themselves are just copied to your clones instead of reduced condi dmg by clones.So having one less dodge forces you to use the mirage mirrors and distortion way more. But unlike other classes mirage actually has to reach them to get the benefit of the cloak.

There is also times where you use mirage cloak as a pure evasion while activating other skills than ambush. so the argument that you get insane amount of dmg every dodge/mirage cloak is false.

Now I can't really speak for powermirages, but I think if they were a thing nerfing condi ambush or redistributing the condi dmg from clones to caster would have been the better idea. If it turns out it was anet's wrong decision the next balance patch gonna reverse the lost dodge.

But I am quite happy with the patch, because a lot of dmg was taken out of them game, which is gw2 biggest problem.

[Ansau.7326]

@Strider.7849 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:Have been trying many mesmer builds since yesterday: power mirage, condi mirage, power core, condi core, even I slotted filthy chrono for first time in 6 months.Mirage is dead in PvP and WvW.Chrono is dead in PvP and WvW.Core mesmer is meh in PvP and dead in WvW.

Anet just killed one of the 9 professions by listening the noisy forum community carried by passives, smashing keyboard sustain and skills doing +50% health bar damage in just 1 hit.

Core Mesmer is still really strong in WvW - I can't speak for PvP because I find it boring. A lot of you new mesmers don't know how to play the class and relied on the passive playstyle of mirage pre-nerf. One of the biggest failures this game has had in recent years was giving people the ability to attack while defending. Mirage not only did that better than any other class, you could straight up kill people while being nearly completely invulnerable through rotating dodges, distortion, reflects, blocks. What I want if/when they return the extra dodge is for them to remove infinite horizon OR make all clones on mirage do zero damage/condi damage and give them equal health/toughness to the Mesmer and rework some of the damage back into the mesmer itself.

New Mesmer you say... I've been playing Mesmer since April 2012. Yes, game was launched in end of August 2012, but I said April 2012.Beta 1 FYI.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Strider.7849 said:

@"Ansau.7326" said:Have been trying many mesmer builds since yesterday: power mirage, condi mirage, power core, condi core, even I slotted filthy chrono for first time in 6 months.Mirage is dead in PvP and WvW.Chrono is dead in PvP and WvW.Core mesmer is meh in PvP and dead in WvW.

Anet just killed one of the 9 professions by listening the noisy forum community carried by passives, smashing keyboard sustain and skills doing +50% health bar damage in just 1 hit.

Core Mesmer is still really strong in WvW - I can't speak for PvP because I find it boring. A lot of you new mesmers don't know how to play the class and relied on the passive playstyle of mirage pre-nerf. One of the biggest failures this game has had in recent years was giving people the ability to attack while defending. Mirage not only did that better than any other class, you could straight up kill people while being nearly completely invulnerable through rotating dodges, distortion, reflects, blocks. What I want if/when they return the extra dodge is for them to remove infinite horizon OR make all clones on mirage do zero damage/condi damage and give them equal health/toughness to the Mesmer and rework some of the damage back into the mesmer itself.

Your statement is obvious fallacy. For example you assert that "One of the biggest failures this game has had in recent years was giving people the ability to attack while defending. Mirage not only did that better than any other class, you could straight up kill people while being nearly completely invulnerable through rotating dodges, distortion, reflects, blocks.".

Your words "nearly completely invulnerable" due to dodges (2 like anyone), distortion (ranger gets signet w invuln as do others so again like anyone), reflects (only work on projectiles, its situational, not mindless, not invulnerable or even close to it), blocks (many get significant unblockable attacks like maul for ranger, marks for Necro, everything for warrior, etc). In other words, you are totally full of kitten. Just another person so used to trashing Mesmer that u don't even question what you are saying. This type of attitude is the real issue. It some times seem like an illness within the game. :'(

[Moradorin.6217]

@Strider.7849 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:Have been trying many mesmer builds since yesterday: power mirage, condi mirage, power core, condi core, even I slotted filthy chrono for first time in 6 months.Mirage is dead in PvP and WvW.Chrono is dead in PvP and WvW.Core mesmer is meh in PvP and dead in WvW.

Anet just killed one of the 9 professions by listening the noisy forum community carried by passives, smashing keyboard sustain and skills doing +50% health bar damage in just 1 hit.

Core Mesmer is still really strong in WvW - I can't speak for PvP because I find it boring. A lot of you new mesmers don't know how to play the class and relied on the passive playstyle of mirage pre-nerf. One of the biggest failures this game has had in recent years was giving people the ability to attack while defending. Mirage not only did that better than any other class, you could straight up kill people while being nearly completely invulnerable through rotating dodges, distortion, reflects, blocks. What I want if/when they return the extra dodge is for them to remove infinite horizon OR make all clones on mirage do zero damage/condi damage and give them equal health/toughness to the Mesmer and rework some of the damage back into the mesmer itself.

A player who DOES situationally chain those different types of skills together to create the illusion that they are invulnerable are actually using timing and skill to choose which skill to use when for what reason in real time as they fly along in wvw with people chasing them or what ever. The idea that it all just happens and works out to make one invulnerable the entire time is laughable really. What are you thinking??

Most/Many classes when played well can do this. People who invested in the right gear and have developed skill with a class can do this with any class.

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:

NOTICE the the meaning of passive-passive or active -passive etc is: the first adjective is about how active or passive is the ACTIVATION of a trait/ skill. The second adjective is about how active or passive is the REWARD/ EFFECT of the skill/ trait after activation.....

7. i think that were enough examples to make the categorisation in all its multidimentional nature comprehensible. At least i hope that?

Well thank you for that long explanation for your own personal definition of active/passive. It is, however, just your own personal definition. Words do have definitions, though, and if you expect people to not take words at their generally agreed upon definitions and just your own personal definition instead you're going to find trouble communicating your ideas. Which might be why you have so much trouble with people understanding you. Just some helpful advice there for you.

@Odik.4587 said:@bravan.3876 you said you are done but still posting 9999999999999999999 words walls even worse than Trevor, staph

I know right! I even told him multiple times he was wasting his time and he still keeps doing it while complaining that he has to do it. Like it was his job.

@bravan.3876 said:

Shadow more or less asked for it^^ It was exhausting, unfun and very time consuming. So i wasn't happy either that i more of less had to do it. Lucky for you, you can just ignore it ez.

I asked for it, huh? All I did was post a comment and you started in with these big walls of texts and every time I responded you kept throwing bigger walls of texts at me. I even told you your arguments were not convincing and you kept repeating the exact same argument, like if you repeated it enough times I would finally see the light. I even told you that even if you did convince me it wouldn't change anything because development decisions aren't made by arguments on the forums. Yet, still you persisted and to what end?

@bravan.3876 said:Also i rly do not feel patient anymore, i more feel like crushing my head against a wall because that would give me less headache than acting in this forum and fighting for class wide skillful balance not leadign into lower skill ceiling and more clunkyness and less gameplay flow of all classes while trying to be as objective and least biased as possible.

Oh if that is your goal let me do you a solid and tell you what you must do. You need to do what CMC did and apply for a job with ANet. There you go, I just saved you all that time posting these walls of texts and making you want to harm yourself because I'm a nice guy and don't want a video game to cause you mental health problems that lead to self harm.

[storm.3120]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Odik.4587 said:@bravan.3876 you said you are done but still posting 9999999999999999999 words walls even worse than Trevor, staphI know right! I even told him multiple times he was wasting his time and he still keeps doing it while complaining that he has to do it. Like it was his job.He is wasting his time because he doesnt understand that if someone made his mind and strongly believe in something he wont change his mind.He doesnt play mesmer or whatever and probably feeling like he should fight for his ideals of "skilled gameplay" and 'skilled" players that were playing alrdy meh builds and suffer because of the absurd nonsense changes that only anet can do.(Some examples - Power chrono was super hard to play as its not mirage and mistakes cost you dearly and was really meh compared to anything, power mirage was way better imo. Power mirage - was way harder to play than faceroll condi mirage and wasnt that strong and both spec suffered a lot form changes that meant to bring down either of elite specs leading to its further destruction)Also I didnt read your convo but seeing you agree with the change makes me think you are far away from understanding how terrible it is and consequences.A spec that made to be "evasive" and have to use his own endurance to attack and to defend himself... now is the least evasive spec out there and so wrong on so many levels....Visually confusing player when he seeing 50% of his endurance he think "my dodge is up again" but in reality its not. Cant bank endurance and this means now you have to spam evade off cd to not waste endurance but if you waste it you are good as dead as next dodge wont come out soon and a red signal to attack you right away.Old but relevant: Ambush doesnt match MC duration and due to latency or whatever u cant cast it right away and half of ambush cast you are wide open to attacks.so tldr - @bravan.3876 stop wasting your time on weirdos with questionable understanding of the class they claim to main

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

NOTICE the the meaning of passive-passive or active -passive etc is: the first adjective is about how active or passive is the ACTIVATION of a trait/ skill. The second adjective is about how active or passive is the REWARD/ EFFECT of the skill/ trait after activation.....

7. i think that were enough examples to make the categorisation in all its multidimentional nature comprehensible. At least i hope that?

Well thank you for that long explanation for your own personal definition of active/passive. It is, however, just your own personal definition. Words do have definitions, though, and if you expect people to not take words at their generally agreed upon definitions and just your own personal definition instead you're going to find trouble communicating your ideas. Which might be why you have so much trouble with people understanding you. Just some helpful advice there for you.

It is more than just subjective definitions, it is scientific thinking based on logic and analysis. But yes as expected you just devalue it without doing any effort of trying to understand what i wrote. It is a simple FACT that there are different types/lvls of passives in the game having different skill ceiling and different abilities of carrying the player. That is a fact, i just gave you a categorisation to make it easier for you too see and understand it. If you just look at the game in your one dimensional way (need to press a button= active, no need to press a button=passive) you DENY 90% of REALITY. You will miss a lot of details you need for making useful balance suggestions. Without that you never learn anything about the game or a class, you will never improve your understanding of how games like GW2 are designed and how they work. I even showed you how important this kind of understanding is to even have a chance to understand the Mirage mechanic and what would be good balance changes not destroying the spec and rly solving the root problems without killing skill ceiling and what are bad changes in particular in terms of making Condimirage more skilled. But you are not interested, you just want to ignore everything not fitting in your own worldview and devalue it with one sentece as only subjective opinion. That is called intellectual stagnation my friend. But that is your problem not mine (thanks god).

@Odik.4587 said:@bravan.3876 you said you are done but still posting 9999999999999999999 words walls even worse than Trevor, staph

I know right! I even told him multiple times he was wasting his time and he still keeps doing it while complaining that he has to do it. Like it was his job.

@bravan.3876 said:

Shadow more or less asked for it^^ It was exhausting, unfun and very time consuming. So i wasn't happy either that i more of less had to do it. Lucky for you, you can just ignore it ez.

I asked for it, huh? All I did was post a comment and you started in with these big walls of texts and every time I responded you kept throwing bigger walls of texts at me. I even told you your arguments were not convincing and you kept repeating the exact same argument, like if you repeated it enough times I would finally see the light. I even told you that even if you did convince me it wouldn't change anything because development decisions aren't made by arguments on the forums. Yet, still you persisted and to what end?

Ofc you indirectly asked by accusing me of not having explained anything (what was not even true) but that was indirectly asking that i explain more or better what i mean.But it is ok, i now fully understand that you either are just not willing to do the effort or that you simply don't have the ability to undertsand complex multidimentional topics. Me trying to explain and to help to get some more input only leads in you going into defensive and feel like i want to make you look silly or something.

@bravan.3876 said:Also i rly do not feel patient anymore, i more feel like crushing my head against a wall because that would give me less headache than acting in this forum and fighting for class wide skillful balance not leadign into lower skill ceiling and more clunkyness and less gameplay flow of all classes while trying to be as objective and least biased as possible.

Oh if that is your goal let me do you a solid and tell you what you must do. You need to do what CMC did and apply for a job with ANet. There you go, I just saved you all that time posting these walls of texts and making you want to harm yourself because I'm a nice guy and don't want a video game to cause you mental health problems that lead to self harm.

It is not the game it is narrowness and biased behavior of ppl leads to headache.

@Odik.4587 said:so tldr - @bravan.3876 stop wasting your time on weirdos with questionable understanding of the class they claim to main

xDYes i will from now on. I tried it long enough i think, no need for me to feel guilty of not trying hard enough and not giving enough explanations or not giving enough whatever...

@Shadow.1345 You can have the last word if you want. No matter if you answer or not and no matter what you will say (if i agree to that or not and no matter how objectively wrong it might be) i am done with you for now. Have a nice day.

[storm.3120]

@bravan.3876 said:Instead of wasting half of your day to write a poems just make yourself a favor and save links to your own posts o everyone can check them if you really want to.^If I'm being nice doesnt mean I agree with any of you, just a reminder. ;)

[bravan.3876]

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Instead of wasting half of your day to write a poems just make yourself a favor and save links to your own posts o everyone can check them if you really want to.^If I'm being nice doesnt mean I agree with any of you, just a reminder. ;)

Yeah i try to do this.

[Tayga.3192]

@Aza.2105 said:Probably because mirage has multiple invuls,4 second with max clones per 50 seconds

evade,Mirage was outevaded by warrior, rev, ranger, thief, engineer and elementalist.

clone spam (that players have to sort through)1 clone on dodge W O W

blinkthe only reliable mobility skill on mesmer, a class with approximately zero swiftness uptime

and access to stealth2 seconds per 35 seconds after nerf

[Xstein.2187]

@Odik.4587 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.Thank you so much.

Before I read your post, based on the whine of the others I thought anet removed distorsion, mirrors, stealth, leaps and teleports from mirage too and that poor mirages are left with one way to avoid damage.

Srsly... it's ridiculous. All these whine posts should be saved for the next time a competent mirage player shows up and wins games as an example of: you suck a the game, you don't know your class mechanics, you don't know your options.

lol, 1v1 me, you mirage me necro. ( mesmer counters necro btw )if you manage to win once out of 10 fights ill give you 200g, how does that sounds?

I don't play anymore, so I'll chip in 1,000g as long as it is recorded.I can be that mirage for memes and free gold? Also what build? (XTEIN GIB ME UR GOLD!111)@bravan.3876 you said you are done but still posting 9999999999999999999 words walls even worse than Trevor, staph

Up to @Leonidrex.5649

I'm just a financial investor, not the playerBest to let @KrHome.1920 reply first though, as he was the first asked.But if he doesn't respond, it is all up in the air.

Wait . . . . . . you do realize you need to beat Leonidrex's necro in order to get paid, not just attempt to duel him, right? :grey_question: ? :grey_question: ? <3 :p :p <3

[storm.3120]

@Xstein.2187 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shadow.1345 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

• extra evade CDs -> Illusionary Ambush, Sand Through Glass, Mirage Mirrors created by False Oasis, Sand Through Glass (this is 2 evades in one utility and a stun break), Crystal Sands and Distortion with Desert Distortion
• Dodge while stomping
• Dodge while reviving

Though again, the benefits of other elites do not change how overtuned Mirage Cloak is. The other option was to basically get rid of IH because it was giving a massive advantage and everyone knows it. Then all the mesmer mains would be crying about loss of that. Before that is was how overtuned Elusive Mind was and when that got nerfed everyone went for Infinite Horizon when the problem all along has been Mirage Cloak.Thank you so much.

Before I read your post, based on the whine of the others I thought anet removed distorsion, mirrors, stealth, leaps and teleports from mirage too and that poor mirages are left with one way to avoid damage.

Srsly... it's ridiculous. All these whine posts should be saved for the next time a competent mirage player shows up and wins games as an example of: you suck a the game, you don't know your class mechanics, you don't know your options.

lol, 1v1 me, you mirage me necro. ( mesmer counters necro btw )if you manage to win once out of 10 fights ill give you 200g, how does that sounds?

I don't play anymore, so I'll chip in 1,000g as long as it is recorded.I can be that mirage for memes and free gold? Also what build? (XTEIN GIB ME UR GOLD!111)@bravan.3876 you said you are done but still posting 9999999999999999999 words walls even worse than Trevor, staph

Up to @Leonidrex.5649

I'm just a financial investor, not the playerBest to let @KrHome.1920 reply first though, as he was the first asked.But if he doesn't respond, it is all up in the air.Wait . . . . . . you do realize you need to beat Leonidrex's necro in order to get paid, not just attempt to duel him, right? :grey_question: ? :grey_question: ? <3 :p :p <3Yes, if I win any duel thats +200gold anyway :smirk:

[Shadow.1345]

@Odik.4587 said:Cant bank endurance and this means now you have to spam evade off cd to not waste endurance but if you waste it you are good as dead as next dodge wont come out soon and a red signal to attack you right away.

You got it. That's likely the point of why they made the change. Before once you reached 100 endurance you would just press the dodge key to not waste endurance with no worries because you had more endurance banked. Now you have to consider the consequences. If you want to lock yourself into the mindset that saving your dodge for when it counts is wasting endurance then go ahead but there is nothing saying you have to do that except yourselves. Plus as I and others have stated it gives the advantage of not having to interrupt skill casts to dodge interrupts. Even Daredevil with it's 150 endurance doesn't get that advantage. With all the previous nerfs the one problem with Mirage in a competitive setting that always remained was the massive advantage that Mirage Cloak provides.Yes, I agree that condi is easy but that is the nature of the competitive environment of every game to find builds with the lowest risk and highest reward. Nerfing conditions nerfs Core, Chrono and Mirage, not just Mirage. Nerfing or removing IH nerfs power too. Gutting scepter/staff ambush affects PvE. Also with the philosophy of not changing the functionality of skills across modes I think reducing endurance is the best way to fix the problem of Mirage Cloak. IH doesn't have a CD so adding one changes the functionality of the trait. You can disagree with me and that is fine but I fully comprehend what is means. Just because I'm not crying over it doesn't mean I don't understand the nature of the change.