Where is the Balance? - Mirage Dodge

[Curunen.8729]

@"bravan.3876" said:The problem with this change is not if Mirage is playable or not with only one dodge, the problem is that it dumbed down in particular Powermirage by more or less deleting the ability to use ambushes timed when they are good to use to actively outplay opponents with a tactical move or a combo at specific times. All you can do 99% of the time now is hoping that it is a good time for an ambush use from you or clones right after a needed defensive dodge. Makes all ambushes just a passive side effect no one can actively time and work with, what is ok for Condimirage because the way condi ambushes are designed it never was more than that: a passive dmg side effect. Even more nonsense it gets when you then try to add more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime to that one dodge bar to compensate for the big nerf and make the dodge management even more spammy and non reactive on cd.Compared to passive condistyle on power you needed to time ambushes from you and clones often very different from the need to evade an attack, either for timed interrupts on sword or to prepare a burst with vuln/ might stacks on gs. Both mostly need pure offensive dodges, well on purpose timed at a moment the Mirage doesn't need to dodge an attack. Powermirage lost a lot of skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity, it got clearly easier to play, more spammy and more passive. But ofc 99,9% of the community including most Mesmer mains (big rofl) don't care or will not even miss anything because barely anyone where able to understand or even use this mechanic to its maximum potential. So the only reason most Mesmer player might be unhappy with only one dodge is because of the less defense they might miss (what might higher the skill floor a little bit but that gets insanely overcompensated by the deleted skill ceiling) but most do not complain because they feel overlimited in their active and high skill ceiling outplay potential on Powermirage, which obviously only exist behind the horizon of most ppl in this game. Welcome to casual GW2.

Such nonsense and mechanic contradicting moves making classes and with that GW2 as a whole more and more easy, low iq, less complex and noobfriendly always trigger me...

I sense the indirect jibe, but reality is a few things:

• Mirage has been getting dumbed down into more brainless play ever since it was released, first by limiting mobility (skill and trait nerfs) and a gradual forcing of reliance on ambush spam, to what has happened now. Yes original Elusive Mind was disgustingly strong, but then damage was more reliant on player input and the playstyle of porting around more frequently like thief to have to land bursts/shatters etc was more active than anything since. Over time it became a monotonous experience, with the only silver lining now that all the game state is reduced such that it's a new playing field. But I still don't like how Anet has handled the spec over the last few years.
• It's not going to be reverted regardless of sensible arguments.
• Best we can hope for is how to move this forward in a direction that is possible to be implemented, which may or may not be even more "brainless" to play.

Having said that, I agree with most of your outlook on mesmer aside from one or two things, though could do without the unnecessary condescension.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Quadox is right.Power mes damage is low now. Even if you spec 3offensive traitlines, all damage boosts your burst will not down from medium armor on. The only thing power had was burst since sustain is pitiful, now pfff.

[BadMed.3846]

Even now a mirage can be uncatchable in open world environment like WvW. That one dodge removal is perfectly fine. We do need stealth duration nerfs across the board though.

[BadMed.3846]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Quadox is right.Power mes damage is low now. Even if you spec 3offensive traitlines, all damage boosts your burst will not down from medium armor on. The only thing power had was burst since sustain is pitiful, now pfff.

Damage has been nerfed across the board. It was needed.

[bravan.3876]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:The problem with this change is not if Mirage is playable or not with only one dodge, the problem is that it dumbed down in particular Powermirage by more or less deleting the ability to use ambushes timed when they are good to use to actively outplay opponents with a tactical move or a combo at specific times. All you can do 99% of the time now is hoping that it is a good time for an ambush use from you or clones right after a needed defensive dodge. Makes all ambushes just a passive side effect no one can actively time and work with, what is ok for Condimirage because the way condi ambushes are designed it never was more than that: a passive dmg side effect. Even more nonsense it gets when you then try to add more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime to that one dodge bar to compensate for the big nerf and make the dodge management even more spammy and non reactive on cd.Compared to passive condistyle on power you needed to time ambushes from you and clones often very different from the need to evade an attack, either for timed interrupts on sword or to prepare a burst with vuln/ might stacks on gs. Both mostly need pure offensive dodges, well on purpose timed at a moment the Mirage doesn't need to dodge an attack. Powermirage lost a lot of skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity, it got clearly easier to play, more spammy and more passive. But ofc 99,9% of the community including most Mesmer mains (big rofl) don't care or will not even miss anything because barely anyone where able to understand or even use this mechanic to its maximum potential. So the only reason most Mesmer player might be unhappy with only one dodge is because of the less defense they might miss (what might higher the skill floor a little bit but that gets insanely overcompensated by the deleted skill ceiling) but most do not complain because they feel overlimited in their active and high skill ceiling outplay potential on Powermirage, which obviously only exist behind the horizon of most ppl in this game. Welcome to casual GW2.

Such nonsense and mechanic contradicting moves making classes and with that GW2 as a whole more and more easy, low iq, less complex and noobfriendly always trigger me...

I sense the indirect jibe, but reality is a few things:

• Mirage has been getting dumbed down into more brainless play ever since it was released, first by limiting mobility (skill and trait nerfs) and a gradual forcing of reliance on ambush spam, to what has happened now. Yes original Elusive Mind was disgustingly strong, but then damage was more reliant on player input and the playstyle of porting around more frequently like thief to have to land bursts/shatters etc was more active than anything since. Over time it became a monotonous experience, with the only silver lining now that all the game state is reduced such that it's a new playing field. But I still don't like how Anet has handled the spec over the last few years.
• It's not going to be reverted regardless of sensible arguments.
• Best we can hope for is how to move this forward in a direction that is possible to be implemented, which may or may not be even more "brainless" to play.

Having said that, I agree with most of your outlook on mesmer aside from one or two things, though could do without the unnecessary condescension.

No jibe, just decribe an observation and that pretty direct i would say^^ Just one of those situations you can't be polite and honest at same time. Sry for that.

• Do not mix up Condimirage and Powermirage. Condimirage when actually played with Mirage mechanic (means IH) and not with the old core mechanic of theIneptitude -Blind shatterspam and just a broken stunbreak on dodge mistake cover in Mirage traitline always was passive and dumbed down by basic design since PoF release. Because the condi ambushes are bad designed. They do not give any incentive to the player to work with them active and to time them differently from pure defensive dodges. First reason why condi ambushes are only passive is, that they are only about dmg, they have no effects included, like a daze or a vulnstack (used to prepare a burst), which needs a different from defensive dodges timing and for that active and more reactive timing depending on opponents behavior. Second reason is, that these only-build-up-on-dmg-and-no-effects-ambushes then are also strong enough, that dodging purely defensive is rewarding enough already. With other words, you can make pure dmg based dodge dmg traits more active when their dmg is not too low on one side (so offensive dodges doesn't worth it for the little dmg) but also not too strong (so that offensive dodges are not needed to make enough dmg to win a fight). Add to that, that shatters then also got overnerfed in condi dmg forcing the player even more in passive clone dmg by not shattering and spamming dodges for clone ambushes instead while the Mesmer can play pure derfensive all the time.
• So even when we forget the existence of Powermirage for a moment, like Anet does everytime they nerf Condi in a way that also nerfs Power in an unneeded way, than even for Condimirage only there would have been way better changes, that would make Condimirage less passive and higher skill ceiling. But ofc that needs more time and (sry for the condescention again) more brain to rework. The best would be to rework condi ambushes as a whole (means from Mesmers and indirectly from clones because clones always have the same skill as Mesmer just weaker) into something more about effects and less about dmg (at least something like gs is, or even better only about effects without any dmg, means pure utility based just as sword is, same what i suggest for Ranger pets for the same reasons btw). Or AT LEAST nerf condi clone ambushes directly and not indirectly by cutting core traits again and again. Is it that hard to rework scepter ambushes that it does less hits to not overperform with Sharper Images and add a moderate confucion stack on those less hits that is balanced and hit the equilibrium of not being too weak and not too strong, so it forces a Condimirage into active pure offensive dodges? You can compensate in PvE for the dmg loss from Sharper Images by higher confusion stacks on the ambushes itself very easy. That doesn't lead into totally different playstyles/ mechanics from PvP and PvE what a lot of ppl doing both gamemodes criticize with good reasons and what Anet said they never want to do (making classes super different to play in different gamemodes). Also that change would not kill skill ceiling and active gameplay as a spin-off from Powerbuilds and even would add skill ceiling to Condimirage and make it more active to play. Either of these changes would make the one dodge change completely redundant, making Mirage less op without deleting skill ceiling (even addding skill ceiling). But we still prefer to buy a meal for the price of 2 meals, instead getting the same meal for free with an incecream as bonus on top of that. Decisionmaking and logic... no clue how ppl can do the first without the second... but the one dodge change and voting for it or at least accepting it, is just a result of that.
• This needs to be reverted, it just needs to. Some mistakes you cannot just ignore and keep, some mistakes you have to admit to and revert. This is one of them.

[phokus.8934]

@BadMed.3846 said:Even now a mirage can be uncatchable in open world environment like WvW. That one dodge removal is perfectly fine. We do need stealth duration nerfs across the board though.

You don't know what you're talking about, even with your bad anecdotal evidence.

[Curunen.8729]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The problem with this change is not if Mirage is playable or not with only one dodge, the problem is that it dumbed down in particular Powermirage by more or less deleting the ability to use ambushes timed when they are good to use to actively outplay opponents with a tactical move or a combo at specific times. All you can do 99% of the time now is hoping that it is a good time for an ambush use from you or clones right after a needed defensive dodge. Makes all ambushes just a passive side effect no one can actively time and work with, what is ok for Condimirage because the way condi ambushes are designed it never was more than that: a passive dmg side effect. Even more nonsense it gets when you then try to add more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime to that one dodge bar to compensate for the big nerf and make the dodge management even more spammy and non reactive on cd.Compared to passive condistyle on power you needed to time ambushes from you and clones often very different from the need to evade an attack, either for timed interrupts on sword or to prepare a burst with vuln/ might stacks on gs. Both mostly need pure offensive dodges, well on purpose timed at a moment the Mirage doesn't need to dodge an attack. Powermirage lost a lot of skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity, it got clearly easier to play, more spammy and more passive. But ofc 99,9% of the community including most Mesmer mains (big rofl) don't care or will not even miss anything because barely anyone where able to understand or even use this mechanic to its maximum potential. So the only reason most Mesmer player might be unhappy with only one dodge is because of the less defense they might miss (what might higher the skill floor a little bit but that gets insanely overcompensated by the deleted skill ceiling) but most do not complain because they feel overlimited in their active and high skill ceiling outplay potential on Powermirage, which obviously only exist behind the horizon of most ppl in this game. Welcome to casual GW2.

Such nonsense and mechanic contradicting moves making classes and with that GW2 as a whole more and more easy, low iq, less complex and noobfriendly always trigger me...

I sense the indirect jibe, but reality is a few things:

• Mirage has been getting dumbed down into more brainless play ever since it was released, first by limiting mobility (skill and trait nerfs) and a gradual forcing of reliance on ambush spam, to what has happened now. Yes original Elusive Mind was disgustingly strong, but then damage was more reliant on player input and the playstyle of porting around more frequently like thief to have to land bursts/shatters etc was more active than anything since. Over time it became a monotonous experience, with the only silver lining now that all the game state is reduced such that it's a new playing field. But I still don't like how Anet has handled the spec over the last few years.
• It's not going to be reverted regardless of sensible arguments.
• Best we can hope for is how to move this forward in a direction that is possible to be implemented, which may or may not be even more "brainless" to play.

Having said that, I agree with most of your outlook on mesmer aside from one or two things, though could do without the unnecessary condescension.

No jibe, just decribe an observation and that pretty direct i would say^^ Just one of those situations you can't be polite and honest at same time. Sry for that.

• Do not mix up Condimirage and Powermirage. Condimirage when actually played with Mirage mechanic (means IH) and not with the old core mechanic of theIneptitude -Blind shatterspam and just a broken stunbreak on dodge mistake cover in Mirage traitline always was passive and dumbed down by basic design since PoF release. Because the condi ambushes are bad designed. They do not give any incentive to the player to work with them active and to time them differently from pure defensive dodges. First reason why condi ambushes are only passive is, that they are only about dmg, they have no effects included, like a daze or a vulnstack (used to prepare a burst), which needs a different from defensive dodges timing and for that active and more reactive timing depending on opponents behavior. Second reason is, that these only-build-up-on-dmg-and-no-effects-ambushes then are also strong enough, that dodging purely defensive is rewarding enough already. With other words, you can make pure dmg based dodge dmg traits more active when their dmg is not too low on one side (so offensive dodges doesn't worth it for the little dmg) but also not too strong (so that offensive dodges are not needed to make enough dmg to win a fight). Add to that, that shatters then also got overnerfed in condi dmg forcing the player even more in passive clone dmg by not shattering and spamming dodges for clone ambushes instead while the Mesmer can play pure derfensive all the time.
• So even when we forget the existence of Powermirage for a moment, like Anet does everytime they nerf Condi in a way that also nerfs Power in an unneeded way, than even for Condimirage only there would have been way better changes, that would make Condimirage less passive and higher skill ceiling. But ofc that needs more time and (sry for the condescention again) more brain to rework. The best would be to rework condi ambushes as a whole (means from Mesmers and indirectly from clones because clones always have the same skill as Mesmer just weaker) into something more about effects and less about dmg (at least something like gs is, or even better only about effects without any dmg, means pure utility based just as sword is, same what i suggest for Ranger pets for the same reasons btw). Or AT LEAST nerf condi clone ambushes directly and not indirectly by cutting core traits again and again. Is it that hard to rework scepter ambushes that it does less hits to not overperform with Sharper Images and add a moderate confucion stack on those less hits that is balanced and hit the equilibrium of not being too weak and not too strong, so it forces a Condimirage into active pure offensive dodges? You can compensate in PvE for the dmg loss from Sharper Images by higher confusion stacks on the ambushes itself very easy. That doesn't lead into totally different playstyles/ mechanics from PvP and PvE what a lot of ppl doing both gamemodes criticize with good reasons and what Anet said they never want to do (making classes super different to play in different gamemodes). Also that change would not kill skill ceiling and active gameplay as a spin-off from Powerbuilds and even would add skill ceiling to Condimirage and make it more active to play. Either of these changes would make the one dodge change completely redundant, making Mirage less op without deleting skill ceiling (even addding skill ceiling). But we still prefer to buy a meal for the price of 2 meals, instead getting the same meal for free with an incecream as bonus on top of that. Decisionmaking and logic... no clue how ppl can do the first without the second... but the one dodge change and voting for it or at least accepting it, is just a result of that.
• This needs to be reverted, it just needs to. Some mistakes you cannot just ignore and keep, some mistakes you have to admit to and revert. This is one of them.

That's ok I appreciate the honesty, though it would be sufficient to state one's opinion without the need to take a superior stance and apply judgements based on assumption. To be really cynical, the forum is a game and all that matters is to get the result intended in actual game - there's a lot of agendas, as well as having to bear in mind what is realistic for Anet to be likely to do. History has shown with Anet that it is highly unlikely that this endurance nerf is going to be reverted, so personally I am not going to waste energy trying to push for it. If they do it, great - I will be both surprised and happy. In any case I'd rather see a future patch completely redesigning a number of aspects of mirage including shatters and clone ambush to lay a better foundation.

Maybe it wasn't clear how I said it - the point not being EM, but moreso that the player had to apply the damage more than clones, regardless if from overloaded shatters or things like axe 3 burst, etc. If you ignore things like blinding dissipation and ineptitude (eg imagine a build without speccing them), the remainder of play without clone ambush condi application, was more active and with more counterplay - eg some sustained damage from normal clone condi autos and other skills, with clear burst skills like axe 3, shatters, even things like IA into clone ambush etc. Sure there are a number of issues I am ignoring, but the essence of what I'm trying to say is every nerf has slowly but surely homogenised mirage into a less fun, less active and now a less effective way of playing.

Edit - I forgot to talk about moving clone condi application/damage onto player ambush, this should have of course been something that was done a long time ago, but who knows...

Ideally, back to the drawing board, mirage should not have even had normal shatters.

F1 could have been "order your clones to ambush" with direct damage boostF2 could have been the same with additional condi applicationF3 again another clone order, but add daze to the attacksF4, similar - maybe some variety of Desert Distortion turning all clones to mirrors

That way mirage would have from the foundation been all about maintaining clones and a clear focus on the ambush mechanic - thereby differentiating from Core which would be standard shatter, and Chrono (which ideally could have been different, without the loss of IP but focus on pbaoe fields/wells and support). Of course this would need tweaks to all the ambushes, cast times, damage, etc - but the concept could have been sound.

That would free up all this problem centering around overloaded dodge and IH clone ambushes, which may not even have been needed as a trait if ambush was decoupled from dodge (edit, or at the very least - clone ambush through IH would be from F1-4 skills only, but player ambush could have remained accessible after dodge), which has been the cause of the last couple of years worth of disappointing nerf decisions.

Yes I can imagine this could have been a nightmare to implement with all the different shatter traits and procs - to get them to activate on ambush hits, but I strongly believe it would have been better to design mirage like this. It would have naturally limited the unhealthy potential of combos between ambushes and normal shatters with the ability to put evade frames wherever you like, and made this elite spec properly unique from normal mesmer.

Anyway, I should say props to keeping up the good fight, let's hope something beneficial comes out of this.

[Shadow.1345]

@bravan.3876 said:Just one of those situations you can't be polite and honest at same time. Sry for that.

Actually you can be. It's really simple, just write what you want to write without all of the insults you add. They really don't support your argument at all in anyway.

[bravan.3876]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The problem with this change is not if Mirage is playable or not with only one dodge, the problem is that it dumbed down in particular Powermirage by more or less deleting the ability to use ambushes timed when they are good to use to actively outplay opponents with a tactical move or a combo at specific times. All you can do 99% of the time now is hoping that it is a good time for an ambush use from you or clones right after a needed defensive dodge. Makes all ambushes just a passive side effect no one can actively time and work with, what is ok for Condimirage because the way condi ambushes are designed it never was more than that: a passive dmg side effect. Even more nonsense it gets when you then try to add more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime to that one dodge bar to compensate for the big nerf and make the dodge management even more spammy and non reactive on cd.Compared to passive condistyle on power you needed to time ambushes from you and clones often very different from the need to evade an attack, either for timed interrupts on sword or to prepare a burst with vuln/ might stacks on gs. Both mostly need pure offensive dodges, well on purpose timed at a moment the Mirage doesn't need to dodge an attack. Powermirage lost a lot of skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity, it got clearly easier to play, more spammy and more passive. But ofc 99,9% of the community including most Mesmer mains (big rofl) don't care or will not even miss anything because barely anyone where able to understand or even use this mechanic to its maximum potential. So the only reason most Mesmer player might be unhappy with only one dodge is because of the less defense they might miss (what might higher the skill floor a little bit but that gets insanely overcompensated by the deleted skill ceiling) but most do not complain because they feel overlimited in their active and high skill ceiling outplay potential on Powermirage, which obviously only exist behind the horizon of most ppl in this game. Welcome to casual GW2.

Such nonsense and mechanic contradicting moves making classes and with that GW2 as a whole more and more easy, low iq, less complex and noobfriendly always trigger me...

I sense the indirect jibe, but reality is a few things:

• Mirage has been getting dumbed down into more brainless play ever since it was released, first by limiting mobility (skill and trait nerfs) and a gradual forcing of reliance on ambush spam, to what has happened now. Yes original Elusive Mind was disgustingly strong, but then damage was more reliant on player input and the playstyle of porting around more frequently like thief to have to land bursts/shatters etc was more active than anything since. Over time it became a monotonous experience, with the only silver lining now that all the game state is reduced such that it's a new playing field. But I still don't like how Anet has handled the spec over the last few years.
• It's not going to be reverted regardless of sensible arguments.
• Best we can hope for is how to move this forward in a direction that is possible to be implemented, which may or may not be even more "brainless" to play.

Having said that, I agree with most of your outlook on mesmer aside from one or two things, though could do without the unnecessary condescension.

No jibe, just decribe an observation and that pretty direct i would say^^ Just one of those situations you can't be polite and honest at same time. Sry for that.

• Do not mix up Condimirage and Powermirage. Condimirage when actually played with Mirage mechanic (means IH) and not with the old core mechanic of theIneptitude -Blind shatterspam and just a broken stunbreak on dodge mistake cover in Mirage traitline always was passive and dumbed down by basic design since PoF release. Because the condi ambushes are bad designed. They do not give any incentive to the player to work with them active and to time them differently from pure defensive dodges. First reason why condi ambushes are only passive is, that they are only about dmg, they have no effects included, like a daze or a vulnstack (used to prepare a burst), which needs a different from defensive dodges timing and for that active and more reactive timing depending on opponents behavior. Second reason is, that these only-build-up-on-dmg-and-no-effects-ambushes then are also strong enough, that dodging purely defensive is rewarding enough already. With other words, you can make pure dmg based dodge dmg traits more active when their dmg is not too low on one side (so offensive dodges doesn't worth it for the little dmg) but also not too strong (so that offensive dodges are not needed to make enough dmg to win a fight). Add to that, that shatters then also got overnerfed in condi dmg forcing the player even more in passive clone dmg by not shattering and spamming dodges for clone ambushes instead while the Mesmer can play pure derfensive all the time.
• So even when we forget the existence of Powermirage for a moment, like Anet does everytime they nerf Condi in a way that also nerfs Power in an unneeded way, than even for Condimirage only there would have been way better changes, that would make Condimirage less passive and higher skill ceiling. But ofc that needs more time and (sry for the condescention again) more brain to rework. The best would be to rework condi ambushes as a whole (means from Mesmers and indirectly from clones because clones always have the same skill as Mesmer just weaker) into something more about effects and less about dmg (at least something like gs is, or even better only about effects without any dmg, means pure utility based just as sword is, same what i suggest for Ranger pets for the same reasons btw). Or AT LEAST nerf condi clone ambushes directly and not indirectly by cutting core traits again and again. Is it that hard to rework scepter ambushes that it does less hits to not overperform with Sharper Images and add a moderate confucion stack on those less hits that is balanced and hit the equilibrium of not being too weak and not too strong, so it forces a Condimirage into active pure offensive dodges? You can compensate in PvE for the dmg loss from Sharper Images by higher confusion stacks on the ambushes itself very easy. That doesn't lead into totally different playstyles/ mechanics from PvP and PvE what a lot of ppl doing both gamemodes criticize with good reasons and what Anet said they never want to do (making classes super different to play in different gamemodes). Also that change would not kill skill ceiling and active gameplay as a spin-off from Powerbuilds and even would add skill ceiling to Condimirage and make it more active to play. Either of these changes would make the one dodge change completely redundant, making Mirage less op without deleting skill ceiling (even addding skill ceiling). But we still prefer to buy a meal for the price of 2 meals, instead getting the same meal for free with an incecream as bonus on top of that. Decisionmaking and logic... no clue how ppl can do the first without the second... but the one dodge change and voting for it or at least accepting it, is just a result of that.
• This needs to be reverted, it just needs to. Some mistakes you cannot just ignore and keep, some mistakes you have to admit to and revert. This is one of them.

That's ok I appreciate the honesty, though it would be sufficient to state one's opinion without the need to take a superior stance and apply judgements based on assumption. To be really cynical, the forum is a game and all that matters is to get the result intended in actual game - there's a lot of agendas, as well as having to bear in mind what is realistic for Anet to be likely to do. History has shown with Anet that it is highly unlikely that this endurance nerf is going to be reverted, so personally I am not going to waste energy trying to push for it. If they do it, great - I will be both surprised and happy. In any case I'd rather see a future patch completely redesigning a number of aspects of mirage including shatters and clone ambush to lay a better foundation.

Maybe it wasn't clear how I said it - the point not being EM, but moreso that the player had to apply the damage more than clones, regardless if from overloaded shatters or things like axe 3 burst, etc. If you ignore things like blinding dissipation and ineptitude (eg imagine a build without speccing them), the remainder of play without clone ambush condi application, was more active and with more counterplay - eg some sustained damage from normal clone condi autos and other skills, with clear burst skills like axe 3, shatters, even things like IA into clone ambush etc. Sure there are a number of issues I am ignoring, but the essence of what I'm trying to say is every nerf has slowly but surely homogenised mirage into a less fun, less active and now a less effective way of playing.

Edit - I forgot to talk about moving clone condi application/damage onto player ambush, this should have of course been something that was done a long time ago, but who knows...

Ideally, back to the drawing board, mirage should not have even had normal shatters.

F1 could have been "order your clones to ambush" with direct damage boostF2 could have been the same with additional condi applicationF3 again another clone order, but add daze to the attacksF4, similar - maybe some variety of Desert Distortion turning all clones to mirrors

That way mirage would have from the foundation been all about maintaining clones and a clear focus on the ambush mechanic - thereby differentiating from Core which would be standard shatter, and Chrono (which ideally could have been different, without the loss of IP but focus on pbaoe fields/wells and support). Of course this would need tweaks to all the ambushes, cast times, damage, etc - but the concept could have been sound.

That would free up all this problem centering around overloaded dodge and IH clone ambushes, which may not even have been needed as a trait if ambush was decoupled from dodge (edit, or at the very least - clone ambush through IH would be from F1-4 skills only, but player ambush could have remained accessible after dodge), which has been the cause of the last couple of years worth of disappointing nerf decisions.

Yes I can imagine this could have been a nightmare to implement with all the different shatter traits and procs - to get them to activate on ambush hits, but I strongly believe it would have been better to design mirage like this. It would have naturally limited the unhealthy potential of combos between ambushes and normal shatters with the ability to put evade frames wherever you like, and made this elite spec properly unique from normal mesmer.

Anyway, I should say props to keeping up the good fight, let's hope something beneficial comes out of this.

You think that high amount of rework is more likely than a simple direct nerf of condi ambushes or an (compared to what you suggest) very easy rework from condi ambushes? I doubt that. Also your suggest would make the usual shatter gameplay impossible and would turn Mirage into a simple minion command machine (bit like a minion master Necro). Not sure that would be that fun to play and play against. But one thing they might could do, when they want to hit MC so hard with only one dodge for the Mesmer itself (for no reason btw, it was not overperforming anymore, not the reason Condimirage was op) then they should uncouble the clone ambush/ ih mechanic from the Mesmers dodges and put it into an f5 with the current endurance reggen as ammo skill, incl the nerfs to condi ambushes ofc. That would at least keep the tactical deepness and active gameplay parts of IH/ambushes alive while the Mirage itself can only dodge 1 time (still a dumb down move but not as horrible as what we have now).

Some kitten worth to be combated simply because it makes no sense and it makes the whole game worse. And it is not only Mesmer, they made nonsense to Daredevil, to Ele, to Soulbeast etc. I am just waiting for them to remove the ability to cast while moving, jumpdodges and being able to weaponstow casts for shorter cd to make the game super unfun and clunky with just one step instead killing all specs and classes one by one. Just because stuff like weaponstow is too hard to deal with for all the casuals. When i stop fighting this then only because i don't care anymore, because i stopped playing. It is not all bad though, i like the philosphy of the patch, i don't mind all the nerfs aside from the few outliners (Mirage dodge, Soulbeast petswap, Obsidian on Ele) and the whole inconsistant and unlogical trade off agenda. I like the miniseasons and that they made adjustments to some of the op stuff that fast (like one week after patch we get a hotfix, that is great). But some stuff is just too bad to accept without fighting.

@Shadow.1345 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Just one of those situations you can't be polite and honest at same time. Sry for that.

Actually you can be. It's really simple, just write what you want to write without all of the insults you add. They really don't support your argument at all in anyway.

There was no insult, stop overexaggerating. But feel free to give me an example of how to say " most ppl in this game incl most Mesmer mains do not understand the spec well as also are not able to play the IH/ambush mechanic on Powermirage even near its maximum potential, it seems its beyond their horizon". How do you say this more kind? This is a simple description of an observation, i didn't say beyond the horizon from all you narrowed, stupid, dumb, peep,peep monkeys peep peep. That would have been an insult. If ppl feel hurt about me simply describing my observation than i cannot help that. Ppl should l2live with honesty. Sometimes the only question is, do you want to hear something nice or something honest? Both is not always possible.

[Safandula.8723]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Shadow.1345" said:Mirage cloak is absolutely the problem on Mirage and not just condition damage. Mirage cloak isn't just a dodge, it's also an attack too. It's more than even that. If on any other profession you see an interrupt coming while casting your heal and you have to dodge to avoid being stunned it puts your heal on a 6s CD. If that same situation happens with Mirage Cloak you evade the interrupt and still cast your heal. Now add Infinite Horizon to the situation and not only do you evade the interrupt and finish casting your heal but your clones will all use their ambush skills. Furthermore, if you finish casting your heal before the window of opportunity to use your own ambush skill, you can use that too. The best solution to bring Mirage inline with other professions was to limit the endurance bar. now you have to use it skillfully instead of just spamming it for damage from Infinite Horizon.

you have proved to ALL of us how little you know about mirage.sure you can get all the things you mentioned, its cool. but what you dont get is all the kitten OTHER specs get, you dont get entire new weapon set + healing + mobility from holo.you dont get healing, CC, boon removal, mobility, reveal, extra stats and extra evades from SPByou dont get extra bazilion abilities from FBetc etc.and what -1 dodge means that Mirage to make the most out of mirage cloak, has to SPAM it, OFF COOLDOWN.so instead of Skillfull use Like hmmmmmm, doding CC while casting healing skill, now you just spam it whenever its up or else you are ACTIVELY LOSING ENDURANCE.

This whole patch was aimed at PPL like u. U suggest every class should spamm their skills off cd or else they "actively lose colddowns?" lmao

[Curunen.8729]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The problem with this change is not if Mirage is playable or not with only one dodge, the problem is that it dumbed down in particular Powermirage by more or less deleting the ability to use ambushes timed when they are good to use to actively outplay opponents with a tactical move or a combo at specific times. All you can do 99% of the time now is hoping that it is a good time for an ambush use from you or clones right after a needed defensive dodge. Makes all ambushes just a passive side effect no one can actively time and work with, what is ok for Condimirage because the way condi ambushes are designed it never was more than that: a passive dmg side effect. Even more nonsense it gets when you then try to add more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime to that one dodge bar to compensate for the big nerf and make the dodge management even more spammy and non reactive on cd.Compared to passive condistyle on power you needed to time ambushes from you and clones often very different from the need to evade an attack, either for timed interrupts on sword or to prepare a burst with vuln/ might stacks on gs. Both mostly need pure offensive dodges, well on purpose timed at a moment the Mirage doesn't need to dodge an attack. Powermirage lost a lot of skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity, it got clearly easier to play, more spammy and more passive. But ofc 99,9% of the community including most Mesmer mains (big rofl) don't care or will not even miss anything because barely anyone where able to understand or even use this mechanic to its maximum potential. So the only reason most Mesmer player might be unhappy with only one dodge is because of the less defense they might miss (what might higher the skill floor a little bit but that gets insanely overcompensated by the deleted skill ceiling) but most do not complain because they feel overlimited in their active and high skill ceiling outplay potential on Powermirage, which obviously only exist behind the horizon of most ppl in this game. Welcome to casual GW2.

Such nonsense and mechanic contradicting moves making classes and with that GW2 as a whole more and more easy, low iq, less complex and noobfriendly always trigger me...

I sense the indirect jibe, but reality is a few things:

• Mirage has been getting dumbed down into more brainless play ever since it was released, first by limiting mobility (skill and trait nerfs) and a gradual forcing of reliance on ambush spam, to what has happened now. Yes original Elusive Mind was disgustingly strong, but then damage was more reliant on player input and the playstyle of porting around more frequently like thief to have to land bursts/shatters etc was more active than anything since. Over time it became a monotonous experience, with the only silver lining now that all the game state is reduced such that it's a new playing field. But I still don't like how Anet has handled the spec over the last few years.
• It's not going to be reverted regardless of sensible arguments.
• Best we can hope for is how to move this forward in a direction that is possible to be implemented, which may or may not be even more "brainless" to play.

Having said that, I agree with most of your outlook on mesmer aside from one or two things, though could do without the unnecessary condescension.

No jibe, just decribe an observation and that pretty direct i would say^^ Just one of those situations you can't be polite and honest at same time. Sry for that.

• Do not mix up Condimirage and Powermirage. Condimirage when actually played with Mirage mechanic (means IH) and not with the old core mechanic of theIneptitude -Blind shatterspam and just a broken stunbreak on dodge mistake cover in Mirage traitline always was passive and dumbed down by basic design since PoF release. Because the condi ambushes are bad designed. They do not give any incentive to the player to work with them active and to time them differently from pure defensive dodges. First reason why condi ambushes are only passive is, that they are only about dmg, they have no effects included, like a daze or a vulnstack (used to prepare a burst), which needs a different from defensive dodges timing and for that active and more reactive timing depending on opponents behavior. Second reason is, that these only-build-up-on-dmg-and-no-effects-ambushes then are also strong enough, that dodging purely defensive is rewarding enough already. With other words, you can make pure dmg based dodge dmg traits more active when their dmg is not too low on one side (so offensive dodges doesn't worth it for the little dmg) but also not too strong (so that offensive dodges are not needed to make enough dmg to win a fight). Add to that, that shatters then also got overnerfed in condi dmg forcing the player even more in passive clone dmg by not shattering and spamming dodges for clone ambushes instead while the Mesmer can play pure derfensive all the time.
• So even when we forget the existence of Powermirage for a moment, like Anet does everytime they nerf Condi in a way that also nerfs Power in an unneeded way, than even for Condimirage only there would have been way better changes, that would make Condimirage less passive and higher skill ceiling. But ofc that needs more time and (sry for the condescention again) more brain to rework. The best would be to rework condi ambushes as a whole (means from Mesmers and indirectly from clones because clones always have the same skill as Mesmer just weaker) into something more about effects and less about dmg (at least something like gs is, or even better only about effects without any dmg, means pure utility based just as sword is, same what i suggest for Ranger pets for the same reasons btw). Or AT LEAST nerf condi clone ambushes directly and not indirectly by cutting core traits again and again. Is it that hard to rework scepter ambushes that it does less hits to not overperform with Sharper Images and add a moderate confucion stack on those less hits that is balanced and hit the equilibrium of not being too weak and not too strong, so it forces a Condimirage into active pure offensive dodges? You can compensate in PvE for the dmg loss from Sharper Images by higher confusion stacks on the ambushes itself very easy. That doesn't lead into totally different playstyles/ mechanics from PvP and PvE what a lot of ppl doing both gamemodes criticize with good reasons and what Anet said they never want to do (making classes super different to play in different gamemodes). Also that change would not kill skill ceiling and active gameplay as a spin-off from Powerbuilds and even would add skill ceiling to Condimirage and make it more active to play. Either of these changes would make the one dodge change completely redundant, making Mirage less op without deleting skill ceiling (even addding skill ceiling). But we still prefer to buy a meal for the price of 2 meals, instead getting the same meal for free with an incecream as bonus on top of that. Decisionmaking and logic... no clue how ppl can do the first without the second... but the one dodge change and voting for it or at least accepting it, is just a result of that.
• This needs to be reverted, it just needs to. Some mistakes you cannot just ignore and keep, some mistakes you have to admit to and revert. This is one of them.

That's ok I appreciate the honesty, though it would be sufficient to state one's opinion without the need to take a superior stance and apply judgements based on assumption. To be really cynical, the forum is a game and all that matters is to get the result intended in actual game - there's a lot of agendas, as well as having to bear in mind what is realistic for Anet to be likely to do. History has shown with Anet that it is highly unlikely that this endurance nerf is going to be reverted, so personally I am not going to waste energy trying to push for it. If they do it, great - I will be both surprised and happy. In any case I'd rather see a future patch completely redesigning a number of aspects of mirage including shatters and clone ambush to lay a better foundation.

Maybe it wasn't clear how I said it - the point not being EM, but moreso that the player had to apply the damage more than clones, regardless if from overloaded shatters or things like axe 3 burst, etc. If you ignore things like blinding dissipation and ineptitude (eg imagine a build without speccing them), the remainder of play without clone ambush condi application, was more active and with more counterplay - eg some sustained damage from normal clone condi autos and other skills, with clear burst skills like axe 3, shatters, even things like IA into clone ambush etc. Sure there are a number of issues I am ignoring, but the essence of what I'm trying to say is every nerf has slowly but surely homogenised mirage into a less fun, less active and now a less effective way of playing.

Edit - I forgot to talk about moving clone condi application/damage onto player ambush, this should have of course been something that was done a long time ago, but who knows...

Ideally, back to the drawing board, mirage should not have even had normal shatters.

F1 could have been "order your clones to ambush" with direct damage boostF2 could have been the same with additional condi applicationF3 again another clone order, but add daze to the attacksF4, similar - maybe some variety of Desert Distortion turning all clones to mirrors

That way mirage would have from the foundation been all about maintaining clones and a clear focus on the ambush mechanic - thereby differentiating from Core which would be standard shatter, and Chrono (which ideally could have been different, without the loss of IP but focus on pbaoe fields/wells and support). Of course this would need tweaks to all the ambushes, cast times, damage, etc - but the concept could have been sound.

That would free up all this problem centering around overloaded dodge and IH clone ambushes, which may not even have been needed as a trait if ambush was decoupled from dodge (edit, or at the very least - clone ambush through IH would be from F1-4 skills only, but player ambush could have remained accessible after dodge), which has been the cause of the last couple of years worth of disappointing nerf decisions.

Yes I can imagine this could have been a nightmare to implement with all the different shatter traits and procs - to get them to activate on ambush hits, but I strongly believe it would have been better to design mirage like this. It would have naturally limited the unhealthy potential of combos between ambushes and normal shatters with the ability to put evade frames wherever you like, and made this elite spec properly unique from normal mesmer.

Anyway, I should say props to keeping up the good fight, let's hope something beneficial comes out of this.

You think that high amount of rework is more likely than a simple direct nerf of condi ambushes or an (compared to what you suggest) very easy rework from condi ambushes?

I doubt that. Also your suggest would make the usual shatter gameplay impossible and would turn Mirage into a simple minion command machine (bit like a minion master Necro). Not sure that would be that fun to play and play against. But one thing they might could do, when they want to hit MC so hard with only one dodge for the Mesmer itself (for no reason btw, it was not overperforming anymore, not the reason Condimirage was op) then they should uncouble the clone ambush/ ih mechanic from the Mesmers dodges and put it into an f5 with the current endurance reggen as ammo skill, incl the nerfs to condi ambushes ofc. That would at least keep the tactical deepness and active gameplay parts of IH/ambushes alive while the Mirage itself can only dodge 1 time (still a dumb down move but not as horrible as what we have now).

Some kitten worth to be combated simply because it makes no sense and it makes the whole game worse. And it is not only Mesmer, they made nonsense to Daredevil, to Ele, to Soulbeast etc. I am just waiting for them to remove the ability to cast while moving, jumpdodges and being able to weaponstow casts for shorter cd to make the game super unfun and clunky with just one step instead killing all specs and classes one by one. Just because stuff like weaponstow is too hard to deal with for all the casuals. When i stop fighting this then only because i don't care anymore, because i stopped playing. it is not all bad though, i like the philosphie of the patch, i don't mind all the nerfs aside from the few outliners (Mirage dodge, Soulbeast petswap, Obsidian on Ele) and the whole inconsistant and unlogical trade off agenda. I like the miniseasons and that they made adjustments to some of the op stuff that fast (like one week afetr patch we get a hotfix, that is great). But some stuff is just too bad to accept without fighting.

No of course not - it was purely hypothetical. I don't expect anything like that to happen. Rather than lumping it in with minionmaster however, done correctly it could be interesting and fun, and crucially the whole point would be to make it different from core - as elite specs are supposed to be. I don't think that through comparing current implementation of this kind of pet control style play and how normal shatters function, with how a potential clone command oriented mesmer could function, is possible to say that it will or will not be "simple" or less fun. In some ways they could be analagous to normal ranged shatters - where instead of the clone running up to the target and exploding, it would instead send an ambush attack out to the target and stay alive in its location.

But yeah the whole subject is sadly on the pile of a number of other possibilities that are unlikely to ever happen.

Given what they did to chrono F5, I think the idea of any kind of F5 is as unlikely as the next idea, though I like the concept.

Realistically all I can hope for is more sources of either direct endurance regain or some faster regen somewhere in the trait line, or back to 1s cloak duration, regardless if this is the ideal way to go or not. Though as said, if they revert the nerf then it would be good also.

[bravan.3876]

@Curunen.8729 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:

@bravan.3876 said:The problem with this change is not if Mirage is playable or not with only one dodge, the problem is that it dumbed down in particular Powermirage by more or less deleting the ability to use ambushes timed when they are good to use to actively outplay opponents with a tactical move or a combo at specific times. All you can do 99% of the time now is hoping that it is a good time for an ambush use from you or clones right after a needed defensive dodge. Makes all ambushes just a passive side effect no one can actively time and work with, what is ok for Condimirage because the way condi ambushes are designed it never was more than that: a passive dmg side effect. Even more nonsense it gets when you then try to add more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime to that one dodge bar to compensate for the big nerf and make the dodge management even more spammy and non reactive on cd.Compared to passive condistyle on power you needed to time ambushes from you and clones often very different from the need to evade an attack, either for timed interrupts on sword or to prepare a burst with vuln/ might stacks on gs. Both mostly need pure offensive dodges, well on purpose timed at a moment the Mirage doesn't need to dodge an attack. Powermirage lost a lot of skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity, it got clearly easier to play, more spammy and more passive. But ofc 99,9% of the community including most Mesmer mains (big rofl) don't care or will not even miss anything because barely anyone where able to understand or even use this mechanic to its maximum potential. So the only reason most Mesmer player might be unhappy with only one dodge is because of the less defense they might miss (what might higher the skill floor a little bit but that gets insanely overcompensated by the deleted skill ceiling) but most do not complain because they feel overlimited in their active and high skill ceiling outplay potential on Powermirage, which obviously only exist behind the horizon of most ppl in this game. Welcome to casual GW2.

Such nonsense and mechanic contradicting moves making classes and with that GW2 as a whole more and more easy, low iq, less complex and noobfriendly always trigger me...

I sense the indirect jibe, but reality is a few things:

• Mirage has been getting dumbed down into more brainless play ever since it was released, first by limiting mobility (skill and trait nerfs) and a gradual forcing of reliance on ambush spam, to what has happened now. Yes original Elusive Mind was disgustingly strong, but then damage was more reliant on player input and the playstyle of porting around more frequently like thief to have to land bursts/shatters etc was more active than anything since. Over time it became a monotonous experience, with the only silver lining now that all the game state is reduced such that it's a new playing field. But I still don't like how Anet has handled the spec over the last few years.
• It's not going to be reverted regardless of sensible arguments.
• Best we can hope for is how to move this forward in a direction that is possible to be implemented, which may or may not be even more "brainless" to play.

Having said that, I agree with most of your outlook on mesmer aside from one or two things, though could do without the unnecessary condescension.

No jibe, just decribe an observation and that pretty direct i would say^^ Just one of those situations you can't be polite and honest at same time. Sry for that.

• Do not mix up Condimirage and Powermirage. Condimirage when actually played with Mirage mechanic (means IH) and not with the old core mechanic of theIneptitude -Blind shatterspam and just a broken stunbreak on dodge mistake cover in Mirage traitline always was passive and dumbed down by basic design since PoF release. Because the condi ambushes are bad designed. They do not give any incentive to the player to work with them active and to time them differently from pure defensive dodges. First reason why condi ambushes are only passive is, that they are only about dmg, they have no effects included, like a daze or a vulnstack (used to prepare a burst), which needs a different from defensive dodges timing and for that active and more reactive timing depending on opponents behavior. Second reason is, that these only-build-up-on-dmg-and-no-effects-ambushes then are also strong enough, that dodging purely defensive is rewarding enough already. With other words, you can make pure dmg based dodge dmg traits more active when their dmg is not too low on one side (so offensive dodges doesn't worth it for the little dmg) but also not too strong (so that offensive dodges are not needed to make enough dmg to win a fight). Add to that, that shatters then also got overnerfed in condi dmg forcing the player even more in passive clone dmg by not shattering and spamming dodges for clone ambushes instead while the Mesmer can play pure derfensive all the time.
• So even when we forget the existence of Powermirage for a moment, like Anet does everytime they nerf Condi in a way that also nerfs Power in an unneeded way, than even for Condimirage only there would have been way better changes, that would make Condimirage less passive and higher skill ceiling. But ofc that needs more time and (sry for the condescention again) more brain to rework. The best would be to rework condi ambushes as a whole (means from Mesmers and indirectly from clones because clones always have the same skill as Mesmer just weaker) into something more about effects and less about dmg (at least something like gs is, or even better only about effects without any dmg, means pure utility based just as sword is, same what i suggest for Ranger pets for the same reasons btw). Or AT LEAST nerf condi clone ambushes directly and not indirectly by cutting core traits again and again. Is it that hard to rework scepter ambushes that it does less hits to not overperform with Sharper Images and add a moderate confucion stack on those less hits that is balanced and hit the equilibrium of not being too weak and not too strong, so it forces a Condimirage into active pure offensive dodges? You can compensate in PvE for the dmg loss from Sharper Images by higher confusion stacks on the ambushes itself very easy. That doesn't lead into totally different playstyles/ mechanics from PvP and PvE what a lot of ppl doing both gamemodes criticize with good reasons and what Anet said they never want to do (making classes super different to play in different gamemodes). Also that change would not kill skill ceiling and active gameplay as a spin-off from Powerbuilds and even would add skill ceiling to Condimirage and make it more active to play. Either of these changes would make the one dodge change completely redundant, making Mirage less op without deleting skill ceiling (even addding skill ceiling). But we still prefer to buy a meal for the price of 2 meals, instead getting the same meal for free with an incecream as bonus on top of that. Decisionmaking and logic... no clue how ppl can do the first without the second... but the one dodge change and voting for it or at least accepting it, is just a result of that.
• This needs to be reverted, it just needs to. Some mistakes you cannot just ignore and keep, some mistakes you have to admit to and revert. This is one of them.

That's ok I appreciate the honesty, though it would be sufficient to state one's opinion without the need to take a superior stance and apply judgements based on assumption. To be really cynical, the forum is a game and all that matters is to get the result intended in actual game - there's a lot of agendas, as well as having to bear in mind what is realistic for Anet to be likely to do. History has shown with Anet that it is highly unlikely that this endurance nerf is going to be reverted, so personally I am not going to waste energy trying to push for it. If they do it, great - I will be both surprised and happy. In any case I'd rather see a future patch completely redesigning a number of aspects of mirage including shatters and clone ambush to lay a better foundation.

Maybe it wasn't clear how I said it - the point not being EM, but moreso that the player had to apply the damage more than clones, regardless if from overloaded shatters or things like axe 3 burst, etc. If you ignore things like blinding dissipation and ineptitude (eg imagine a build without speccing them), the remainder of play without clone ambush condi application, was more active and with more counterplay - eg some sustained damage from normal clone condi autos and other skills, with clear burst skills like axe 3, shatters, even things like IA into clone ambush etc. Sure there are a number of issues I am ignoring, but the essence of what I'm trying to say is every nerf has slowly but surely homogenised mirage into a less fun, less active and now a less effective way of playing.

Edit - I forgot to talk about moving clone condi application/damage onto player ambush, this should have of course been something that was done a long time ago, but who knows...

Ideally, back to the drawing board, mirage should not have even had normal shatters.

F1 could have been "order your clones to ambush" with direct damage boostF2 could have been the same with additional condi applicationF3 again another clone order, but add daze to the attacksF4, similar - maybe some variety of Desert Distortion turning all clones to mirrors

That way mirage would have from the foundation been all about maintaining clones and a clear focus on the ambush mechanic - thereby differentiating from Core which would be standard shatter, and Chrono (which ideally could have been different, without the loss of IP but focus on pbaoe fields/wells and support). Of course this would need tweaks to all the ambushes, cast times, damage, etc - but the concept could have been sound.

That would free up all this problem centering around overloaded dodge and IH clone ambushes, which may not even have been needed as a trait if ambush was decoupled from dodge (edit, or at the very least - clone ambush through IH would be from F1-4 skills only, but player ambush could have remained accessible after dodge), which has been the cause of the last couple of years worth of disappointing nerf decisions.

Yes I can imagine this could have been a nightmare to implement with all the different shatter traits and procs - to get them to activate on ambush hits, but I strongly believe it would have been better to design mirage like this. It would have naturally limited the unhealthy potential of combos between ambushes and normal shatters with the ability to put evade frames wherever you like, and made this elite spec properly unique from normal mesmer.

Anyway, I should say props to keeping up the good fight, let's hope something beneficial comes out of this.

You think that high amount of rework is more likely than a simple direct nerf of condi ambushes or an (compared to what you suggest) very easy rework from condi ambushes?

I doubt that. Also your suggest would make the usual shatter gameplay impossible and would turn Mirage into a simple minion command machine (bit like a minion master Necro). Not sure that would be that fun to play and play against. But one thing they might could do, when they want to hit MC so hard with only one dodge for the Mesmer itself (for no reason btw, it was not overperforming anymore, not the reason Condimirage was op) then they should uncouble the clone ambush/ ih mechanic from the Mesmers dodges and put it into an f5 with the current endurance reggen as ammo skill, incl the nerfs to condi ambushes ofc. That would at least keep the tactical deepness and active gameplay parts of IH/ambushes alive while the Mirage itself can only dodge 1 time (still a dumb down move but not as horrible as what we have now).

Some kitten worth to be combated simply because it makes no sense and it makes the whole game worse. And it is not only Mesmer, they made nonsense to Daredevil, to Ele, to Soulbeast etc. I am just waiting for them to remove the ability to cast while moving, jumpdodges and being able to weaponstow casts for shorter cd to make the game super unfun and clunky with just one step instead killing all specs and classes one by one. Just because stuff like weaponstow is too hard to deal with for all the casuals. When i stop fighting this then only because i don't care anymore, because i stopped playing. it is not all bad though, i like the philosphie of the patch, i don't mind all the nerfs aside from the few outliners (Mirage dodge, Soulbeast petswap, Obsidian on Ele) and the whole inconsistant and unlogical trade off agenda. I like the miniseasons and that they made adjustments to some of the op stuff that fast (like one week afetr patch we get a hotfix, that is great). But some stuff is just too bad to accept without fighting.

No of course not - it was purely hypothetical. I don't expect anything like that to happen. Rather than lumping it in with minionmaster however, done correctly it could be interesting and fun, and crucially the whole point would be to make it different from core - as elite specs are supposed to be. I don't think that through comparing current implementation of this kind of pet control style play and how normal shatters function, with how a potential clone command oriented mesmer could function, is possible to say that it will or will not be "simple" or less fun. In some ways they could be analagous to normal ranged shatters - where instead of the clone running up to the target and exploding, it would instead send an ambush attack out to the target and stay alive in its location.

But yeah the whole subject is sadly on the pile of a number of other possibilities that are unlikely to ever happen.

Given what they did to chrono F5, I think the idea of any kind of F5 is as unlikely as the next idea, though I like the concept.

Realistically all I can hope for is more sources of either direct endurance regain or some faster regen somewhere in the trait line, or back to 1s cloak duration, regardless if this is the ideal way to go or not. Though as said, if they revert the nerf then it would be good also.

I didn't say it will be simple or unfun to play or play against, i just said i doubt it will be fun. That is a big difference.Yes ofc they will not add an f5, imagine how the forum would start crying xD Also it is not needed to change Mirage that heavily to make it balanced, that is exactly the point. It is already from its basic mechancis an interesting and active, high slill ceiling spec, all they need to do by looking at it from pre patch balance to now, was to rework (or at least directly nerf) condi ambushes/ condi clone ambushes. It is rly that easy.

[Safandula.8723]

1 Dodge is tough, but iv already seen so many "OMG mirage is dead now" patches, after which New obnoxious builds were coming up, that i dont belive this statement anymore.

[bravan.3876]

@"Safandula.8723" said:1 Dodge is tough, but iv already seen so many "OMG mirage is dead now" patches, after which New obnoxious builds were coming up, that i dont belive this statement anymore.

Yeah that is exactly what happens when balancing around the real issues. The one dodge change doesn't solve any balance issues Condimirage had. It is still passive and low skill ceiling. Less op? Maybe, maybe not, but even if less op, than to very high costs in terms of lower skill ceiling, less tactical deepness and lower mechanical complexity and that even now also on Powermirage.

[Shadow.1345]

@"bravan.3876" said:

There was no insult, stop overexaggerating. But feel free to give me an example of how to say " most ppl in this game incl most Mesmer mains do not understand the spec well as also are not able to play the IH/ambush mechanic on Powermirage even near its maximum potential, it seems its beyond their horizon". How do you say this more kind? This is a simple description of an observation, i didn't say beyond the horizon from all you narrowed, stupid, dumb, peep,peep monkeys peep peep. That would have been an insult. If ppl feel hurt about me simply describing my observation than i cannot help that. Ppl should l2live with honesty. Sometimes the only question is, do you want to hear something nice or something honest? Both is not always possible.

Like this: " most ppl in this game incl most Mesmer mains do not understand the spec well as also are not able to play the IH/ambush mechanic on Powermirage even near its maximum potential, it seems its beyond their horizon"

By removing the phrase "it seems beyond their horizon" the statement now just says:

"most ppl in this game incl most Mesmer mains do not understand the spec well as also are not able to play the IH/ambush mechanic on Powermirage even near its maximum potential."

The statement still conveys the same message so the part about it being beyond their horizon is not only unnecessary to get the message across but it only serves to insult people by saying they aren't smart enough to understand the thing you are talking about. That's just a simple way for starters. It could also be rewritten so as to convey your point without speaking down to the reader:

"A lot of players, including people who play Mirage a lot, miss out on how mirage cloak and ambush skills with power weapons can be used for more than just evading attacks or applying damage. For example the daze from sword ambush clone attacks can be used to interrupt skills when they are not close enough themselves or in order to interrupt follow up attacks after the Mirage has been CCed with a stun or knockdown. An example being dazing a warrior after Bull's Rush in order to interrupt the Hundred Blade attack that generally follows or if the target is going to heal but has broken line of sight to keep your own sword ambush from landing but one of your clones does have line of sight and is in range."

This statement doesn't condescend to the reader and even goes on to provide details to add to the statement as well as educating the reader on how to better use the spec.

[bravan.3876]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:

There was no insult, stop overexaggerating. But feel free to give me an example of how to say " most ppl in this game incl most Mesmer mains do not understand the spec well as also are not able to play the IH/ambush mechanic on Powermirage even near its maximum potential, it seems its beyond their horizon". How do you say this more kind? This is a simple description of an observation, i didn't say beyond the horizon from all you narrowed, stupid, dumb, peep,peep monkeys peep peep. That would have been an insult. If ppl feel hurt about me simply describing my observation than i cannot help that. Ppl should l2live with honesty. Sometimes the only question is, do you want to hear something nice or something honest? Both is not always possible.

Like this: " most ppl in this game incl most Mesmer mains do not understand the spec well as also are not able to play the IH/ambush mechanic on Powermirage even near its maximum potential,

it seems its beyond their horizon

"

By removing the phrase "it seems beyond their horizon" the statement now just says:

"most ppl in this game incl most Mesmer mains do not understand the spec well as also are not able to play the IH/ambush mechanic on Powermirage even near its maximum potential."

The statement still conveys the same message so the part about it being beyond their horizon is not only unnecessary to get the message across but it only serves to insult people by saying they aren't smart enough to understand the thing you are talking about. That's just a simple way for starters. It could also be rewritten so as to convey your point without speaking down to the reader:

"A lot of players, including people who play Mirage a lot, miss out on how mirage cloak and ambush skills with power weapons can be used for more than just evading attacks or applying damage. For example the daze from sword ambush clone attacks can be used to interrupt skills when they are not close enough themselves or in order to interrupt follow up attacks after the Mirage has been CCed with a stun or knockdown. An example being dazing a warrior after Bull's Rush in order to interrupt the Hundred Blade attack that generally follows or if the target is going to heal but has broken line of sight to keep your own sword ambush from landing but one of your clones does have line of sight and is in range."

This statement doesn't condescend to the reader and even goes on to provide details to add to the statement as well as educating the reader on how to better use the spec.

Yep that is how i started to explain stuff, but after explaining it 3000 times in a lot of different forms i also had the conclusion that it might be simply beyond their horizon, so i say it as i see it. Additionally it also is a gimmick about Infinite "Horizon" trait, claimed to be the issue over and over again no matter how often it was explained by me and other ppl that IH is not the issue. Also i think it is absolutely understandable that all the hate based on zero classknowledge and zero class understanding is triggering and deserves to be called out, what i did without insults but also without putting my words into sugar for a froth digestion. I never claimed to be a diplomat though.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

There was a discussion shortly after the patch released lamenting Soulbeast as "hamstrung" due to removing pet swap during combat. While I understand the sentiment, I think the term "hamstrung" more appropriately fits the removal of half of Mirage's endurance bar.

Everything about Mirage revolves around Mirage Cloak. Everything. Offense and defense alike. Every single on-dodge trait and their synergies. Clone generation. Chopping MC up-time in half (actually more due to the need to bank) affects all the mechanics that stem from it and build upon it. If ever there was an example of ripping the heart out of a spec design, this is it.

I tried. I don't claim to be the best player, but I tried a few different build variations over about 15 matches post-patch and it just isn't happening. When supposedly the best mesmer player in the game, with a God of PvP title duoing with another God of PvP is struggling to be effective, there is definitely something wrong. Very wrong.

"This one build is sort of still playable" or "a handful of very gifted players still make it work" is not the standard that should be applied to ANY spec. Do people even hear themselves when they say such things?

I hate to be all doom and gloom. I hoped and tried for something to work. But at this point, unless they revert the endurance nerf, I think it's truly time to reinvent the spec completely. Because right now it's a hot mess.

[Daishi.6027]

Mirage should not dodge less than the entire roster, plain and simple.

Mirrors are no excuse, and mirrors are a terrible mechanic that are more likely to screw you over. On top of being so limited that the only way mirages are even slightly able to keep up is with signet to supplement. If that is the sole reason to justify this that part of the kit should just be removed and replaced with something else. Either way you shouldn't require a trait, a utility, and play 4D chess with fickle clone positioning to barely get on par evasion to the rest of the class.

Anyone who simply says "mirage deserves to dodge less than the roster" is just biased and holds a grudge. OR are the same big brained morons who'd call mesmer OP even when it was replaceable in slot, and only taken for portal; in a time when it was abandoned by top players for thief.

[BadMed.3846]

@"Daishi.6027" said:Mirage should not dodge less than the entire roster, plain and simple.

Mirrors are no excuse, and mirrors are a terrible mechanic that are more likely to screw you over. On top of being so limited that the only way mirages are even slightly able to keep up is with signet to supplement. If that is the sole reason to justify this that part of the kit should just be removed and replaced with something else. Either way you shouldn't require a trait, a utility, and play 4D chess with fickle clone positioning to barely get on par evasion to the rest of the class.

Anyone who simply says "mirage deserves to dodge less than the roster" is just biased and holds a grudge. OR are the same big brained morons who'd call mesmer OP even when it was replaceable in slot, and only taken for portal; in a time when it was abandoned by top players for thief.

There wasn't much noise when thief got the elite with an extra dodge. Just a mechanic, you see. Similarly, it's perfectly OK that Mirage got one dodge taken away. Learn to play with the mechanics.Anyone who thinks that mirage should have more than one dodge is just biased and wants to keep playing a broken class. We're moving towards achieving some balance. Learn to play.

[storm.3120]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Mirage should not dodge less than the entire roster, plain and simple.

Mirrors are no excuse, and mirrors are a terrible mechanic that are more likely to screw you over. On top of being so limited that the only way mirages are even slightly able to keep up is with signet to supplement. If that is the sole reason to justify this that part of the kit should just be removed and replaced with something else. Either way you shouldn't require a trait, a utility, and play 4D chess with fickle clone positioning to barely get on par evasion to the rest of the class.

Anyone who simply says "mirage deserves to dodge less than the roster" is just biased and holds a grudge. OR are the same big brained morons who'd call mesmer OP even when it was replaceable in slot, and only taken for portal; in a time when it was abandoned by top players for thief.

There wasn't much noise when thief got the elite with an extra dodge. Just a mechanic, you see. Similarly, it's perfectly OK that Mirage got one dodge taken away. Learn to play with the mechanics.Anyone who thinks that mirage should have more than one dodge is just biased and wants to keep playing a broken class. We're moving towards achieving some balance. Learn to play.When someone soooooo biased as you calling others biased... thats especially amusing to see "LEARN TO PLAY" from a RANGER player that sit in SILVER-GOLD range. :joy: :joy: :joy:Damn, if I'd make f2p account and come to NA to fight you with my over 300 ping , I would still roll over you with your own class :joy:

[BadMed.3846]

@Odik.4587 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Mirage should not dodge less than the entire roster, plain and simple.

Mirrors are no excuse, and mirrors are a terrible mechanic that are more likely to screw you over. On top of being so limited that the only way mirages are even slightly able to keep up is with signet to supplement. If that is the sole reason to justify this that part of the kit should just be removed and replaced with something else. Either way you shouldn't require a trait, a utility, and play 4D chess with fickle clone positioning to barely get on par evasion to the rest of the class.

Anyone who simply says "mirage deserves to dodge less than the roster" is just biased and holds a grudge. OR are the same big brained morons who'd call mesmer OP even when it was replaceable in slot, and only taken for portal; in a time when it was abandoned by top players for thief.

There wasn't much noise when thief got the elite with an extra dodge. Just a mechanic, you see. Similarly, it's perfectly OK that Mirage got one dodge taken away. Learn to play with the mechanics.Anyone who thinks that mirage should have more than one dodge is just biased and wants to keep playing a broken class. We're moving towards achieving some balance. Learn to play.When someone soooooo biased as you calling others biased... thats especially amusing to see "LEARN TO PLAY" from a RANGER player that sit in SILVER-GOLD range. :joy: :joy: :joy:kitten, if I'd make f2p account and come to NA to fight you with my over 300 ping , I would still roll over you with your own class :joy:

And yet you fail to read the title and stick to the point. Your love for me is highly appreciated. But it might be best for you to learn to play than cry over reasonable balance.

[bravan.3876]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Mirage should not dodge less than the entire roster, plain and simple.

Mirrors are no excuse, and mirrors are a terrible mechanic that are more likely to screw you over. On top of being so limited that the only way mirages are even slightly able to keep up is with signet to supplement. If that is the sole reason to justify this that part of the kit should just be removed and replaced with something else. Either way you shouldn't require a trait, a utility, and play 4D chess with fickle clone positioning to barely get on par evasion to the rest of the class.

Anyone who simply says "mirage deserves to dodge less than the roster" is just biased and holds a grudge. OR are the same big brained morons who'd call mesmer OP even when it was replaceable in slot, and only taken for portal; in a time when it was abandoned by top players for thief.

There wasn't much noise when thief got the elite with an extra dodge. Just a mechanic, you see. Similarly, it's perfectly OK that Mirage got one dodge taken away. Learn to play with the mechanics.Anyone who thinks that mirage should have more than one dodge is just biased and wants to keep playing a broken class. We're moving towards achieving some balance. Learn to play.

Just that the one dodge change makes playing the mechanic impossible xD I am more and more open mouthed how biased hater tryharding to ignore logic and the fact that heavily, that the one dodge change deletes skill ceiling and for that contradicts their hate-goals the moment Mirage will still be playable and that even after 30000 explanations . Never was missing classknowledge/understanding and biased hate based on nothing that obvious (i am pretty polite here btw simply because being completely honest would get me banned).

Lets do the same deal as i do with all ppl only having a big mouth being a forum hero but never show any footage proving how they get carried by the class they call op. Pls record some footage, preferable Powermirage and show us how you get carried vs at least semi decent opponent. I will give you enough time to get used to Mesmer, lets say 3 months? If you refuse to back up anything you say (what i expect you to do anyway) then pls just close your mouth.

[storm.3120]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Mirage should not dodge less than the entire roster, plain and simple.

Mirrors are no excuse, and mirrors are a terrible mechanic that are more likely to screw you over. On top of being so limited that the only way mirages are even slightly able to keep up is with signet to supplement. If that is the sole reason to justify this that part of the kit should just be removed and replaced with something else. Either way you shouldn't require a trait, a utility, and play 4D chess with fickle clone positioning to barely get on par evasion to the rest of the class.

Anyone who simply says "mirage deserves to dodge less than the roster" is just biased and holds a grudge. OR are the same big brained morons who'd call mesmer OP even when it was replaceable in slot, and only taken for portal; in a time when it was abandoned by top players for thief.

There wasn't much noise when thief got the elite with an extra dodge. Just a mechanic, you see. Similarly, it's perfectly OK that Mirage got one dodge taken away. Learn to play with the mechanics.Anyone who thinks that mirage should have more than one dodge is just biased and wants to keep playing a broken class. We're moving towards achieving some balance. Learn to play.When someone soooooo biased as you calling others biased... thats especially amusing to see "LEARN TO PLAY" from a RANGER player that sit in SILVER-GOLD range. :joy: :joy: :joy:kitten, if I'd make f2p account and come to NA to fight you with my over 300 ping , I would still roll over you with your own class :joy:

And yet you fail to read the title and stick to the point. Your love for me is highly appreciated. But it might be best for you to

learn to play

than cry over reasonable balance.Why are you so afraid of someone who need to l2p and can duel you with such handicaps(300+ ping f2p core) on your own main class?Your "reasonable balance" translates into "yes, delete the class that I hate!". Who need your extremely biased opinion ? Right, no one.The only one who pretend 1 dodge is "fine" are these who are bad players that lost in clones and genuinely hate the class. (that what you did all these years spamming nerf mesmer, the struggle to l2p, lol)Before moaning on forum how everything is OP apply that to yourself - GIT GUD and L2P silver-gold boy.

[storm.3120]

@bravan.3876 said:Lets do the same deal as i do with all ppl only having a big mouth being a forum hero but never show any footage proving how they get carried by the class they call op. Pls record some footage, show us how you get carried vs at least semi decent opponent.I'm thinkin about to do it wtih a ranger. Pretty easy/faceroll/braindead class :)

[Axl.8924]

Is mirage even a thing still? I saw that video you guys posted the dodges didn-t look that nuts.