WvW NPCs need nerf

[KrHome.1920]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Yeah decent logic: if you can't solo smc you shouldn't be able to solo a sentry too, because this is a team game.

Because that’s what most of us are saying... ?

And of course veterans should have an easier time than newbies because this will not kitten off people at all but attract them to get good. Just like in real life, where everyone is prefering having a hard time at any cost.

In almost every game, people who play it more, generally are better at it.... ?

. Videogames should never be beginner friendly because you have to look at the bigger picture. After 500 hours you will start to have fun like we have!

You actually would say that about GW2? One of the most newbie friendly MMOs out there?

Again, it’s end game content... It’s not made for ‘beginner’.

It’s also why, unlike sPvP you can’t enter it right past the opening.

?I forgot that 80% of the earth population can't recognize irony in texts. My bad. I apologize.

[Gwaihir.1745]

It takes either of my builds about 4 seconds to take out a t3 camp and 10 seconds if it has creatures guarding. If you cant take out a camp still you're not employing everything available to you to maximize your damage. Soloing towers is now much harder though, and soloing smc was difficult before but now I don't think I could do it. But camps? Nah. Run into a corner or behind and object and unload. If you're just walking into the camp and taking the scout blinds head on thats on you.

[claytonmorby.3751]

I just think the 50% Damage Reduction Buff should be looked at. Camps/Tower aren't really a big deal, but the kill times on Keep Lords and SMC can get ridiculous, especially if you're having a multi-way fight.

[GlazedEntity.8591]

@Gwaihir.1745 said:But camps? Nah. Run into a corner or behind and object and unload.

That is not how I enjoy playing, like I mentioned sure there are easy ways to take camps out even some I can go AFK and just come back when it’s done. However, that is not satisfying or engaging and I am not asking for everything to be easy. And I do not believe that is the point of this discussion either. We as players were scaled and so the NPCs should be too “balance” it out equally. Our CC damage lost, the lords still exist and hits fairly hard. As I mentioned the time/effort for the value is too great in most cases. People are naturally going to go for the path of least resistance, It’s why bugs are exploited. Less effort for the time or more effort for less time.

[Traveller.7496]

I agree that they are somewhat too hard for a solo player now with all the nerfs. Sometimes you play on a time where there simply are not others to take those camps and you lose to other roamers, so your only option is to flip camps and kill sentries. T1 camps should not be hard to cap, upgraded camps can be harder since that gives upgrading them some use.

People going "hurr durr I can solo T3 camps and towers just fine" just simply need to consider that skill cap to get into WvW is high enough as it is and needn't be higher for new players.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"Traveller.7496" said:I agree that they are somewhat too hard for a solo player now with all the nerfs. Sometimes you play on a time where there simply are not others to take those camps and you lose to other roamers, so your only option is to flip camps and kill sentries. T1 camps should not be hard to cap, upgraded camps can be harder since that gives upgrading them some use.

People going "hurr durr I can solo T3 camps and towers just fine" just simply need to consider that skill cap to get into WvW is high enough as it is and needn't be higher for new players.

New players shouldn’t be going solo..... It is that simple.

I don’t care if a vet can solo a T3 nor a T1....

It comes more from experience then from buffs..

And part of that experience is learning by getting your young cat handed to you.

[GlazedEntity.8591]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:New players shouldn’t be going solo..... It is that simple.

I disagree, you should be able to do either. I did not join a group until I had a pretty good understanding of what was going on.

I don’t care if a vet can solo a T3 nor a T1....

Agreed, time/effort = value I don’t want to use the little time I have available to play for a low satisfaction cap.

It comes more from experience then from buffs..And part of that experience is learning by getting your young cat handed to you.

Disagree, I did not learn from dying fast or following a tag. I learned from the time it took to cap the camp with inefficient build/equip. In the starting areas of the game nothing there will stomp you easily. As you travel further from home it gets more intense sentry-camp/mercs-tower-keep-castle-borderland map holds. Progression is always key

But I digress, we the players received X reduction in X game mode NPCs should receive X reduction in X game mode. Unless that was the issue at hand.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@GlazedEntity.8591 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:New players shouldn’t be going solo..... It is that simple.

I disagree, you should be able to do either. I did not join a group until I had a pretty good understanding of what was going on.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. ?

And part of that experience is learning by getting your young cat handed to you.

Disagree, I did not learn from dying fast or following a tag. I learned from the time it took to cap the camp with inefficient build/equip. In the starting areas of the game nothing there will stomp you easily. As you travel further from home it gets more intense sentry-camp/mercs-tower-keep-castle-borderland map holds. Progression is always key

I guess in my opinion people shouldn’t be hopping into WvW from the starting areas.

I would go so far as to suggest that people should have at least one toon that completed the core story. Not that the story itself is the best way, but at least you are introduced to multiple enemy types, conditions, champions etc.

[LetoII.3782]

Such wow12charrcars

[GlazedEntity.8591]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@GlazedEntity.8591 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:New players shouldn’t be going solo..... It is that simple.

I disagree, you should be able to do either. I did not join a group until I had a pretty good understanding of what was going on.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. ?

I accept, differing views allow things to progress in the middle ground.

And part of that experience is learning by getting your young cat handed to you.

Disagree, I did not learn from dying fast or following a tag. I learned from the time it took to cap the camp with inefficient build/equip. In the starting areas of the game nothing there will stomp you easily. As you travel further from home it gets more intense sentry-camp/mercs-tower-keep-castle-borderland map holds. Progression is always key

I guess in my opinion people shouldn’t be hopping into WvW from the starting areas.

I would go so far as to suggest that people should have at least one toon that completed the core story. Not that the story itself is the best way, but at least you are introduced to multiple enemy types, conditions, champions etc.

I did not mean that as people should join right from the start grounds. Granted I tried when I first started because I was ranger and trying to collect em all pets. However the story/open world is way less harsh than WvW/sPvP. When I was starting to jump into the fighting other players sPvP was far too daunting and everyone was mad for my horrible plays. So WvW where as a single individual of I mess up while learning it hardly impacts the team. So progression in that sense helps and that’s why I brought it up. Also, see edited post above.

[Cambeleg.7632]

Why to not nerf Keep Lords too, so you can solo them?

Oh, wait! We can also nerf the walls, so you can punch them and go inside without siege!

Seriously, with so many REAL problems that WvW drags since years ago, and we complain about "Awww, I can't solo a t2/t3 camp" or "Awwww, I can't solo a tower by myself".

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

As I posted before the patch was out and posts like this were already being made....

If solo capping a camp, even a T3 can't be done solo, you might want to get some more play time and think about what you are doing. Before patch I could breath on a camp and clear it, not joking, 5-10 seconds for clearing a T1-T2 camp 15sec for a T3. That is just WAY to easy, circle was half capped or more before swords would even pop. Now after patch? Maybe 10-15 seconds for a T1-T2, still super simple, stack and go through DPS rotation, walk into circle, done. It is even easier now, as you can make a template just for clearing camps that can be swapped to and from in seconds.

If we are at the point that people are complaining about NPCs being to hard and T3 camps are uncappable, it really, REALLY shows how far down the wrong road this mode went in making this game mode spam and mindless game play friendly.

@lodjur.1284 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Golems shouldn't count for contesting a camp, just like mounts

Agree. No risk, no reward. This shouldn't come down to who spent supply.

Worst is when they built like 3+ golems and just go from one to next until their 20+ zerg shows up

Now THIS is a actual problem.

And yes, I do this myself when I am trying to hold a camp, however it should NOT be a thing, just like mounts don't contest, neither should golems. Nothing more annoying than fighting someone in a full T3 camp, killing all the NPCs and getting the defender to 10% HP to have them jump into a golem with 200k HP for me to try and get through, only for there to be another golem off to the side for him to hop back in, more often than not, unless many more people for my side show up, they will burn more than enough time for many people (if not a full zerg, which is pretty common) to show up.

This is something that should have been removed some time ago.

[Sobx.1758]

@aspirine.6852 said:On the other hand, arent upgraded camps suppose to be harder to cap....

But but but... I'm supposed to start capping the camp before the 'contested' icon even shows on the map, that was super fair and fun :<

@OP if you want npcs to be like ambient mobs, then go ahead and just vote for removing them at all, because what's even the point of their existance.

[Burnfall.9573]

@SuperNix.5061 said:Usually i do not make this posts but this is something which is of huge importance for WvW mode in general and should be adressed soon as possible.

As someone who has good exp in roaming in WvW i can say that NPCs are the bigest problem right now(aside from mounts ofc),and let me explain why.

Even tho roaming scene is quite dead there are people that still do it every now and then and that's when the problem apears.

After recent patch and dps nerfs to everything T2/T3 camps are now really hard for 1 person to take especially with mercanary around,just takes way too long as they have way too much sustain and you can't just yolo as they still hit for a lot.

Now add any random player that could join your fight vs 10 npc or just afks inside camp as people usually do,some even with golem/bali(why 1v1,when you can 10v1 right? :] ),it makes it so 1 person on his own pretty much can't do a thing anymore,i know mode is made for zergs mainly and i zerg a lot too but doesn't mean it should be unplayable for people trying to solo.

In short,doubt anyone wants to fight NPCs for 5 days,you got PVE for that.

This comes from a person that used to solo towers/camps+1-2 players on top of it on pretty much any class and any dps build i played so i can only imagine how it feels to an average player or someone just trying to get into WvW,so no wonder why 80% of day on most NA servers is a ghost town,mode is just less and less forgiving on solo players which used to be mayority and now barely exist.

So my idea is to either nerf NPCs sustain/dps or to at least improve NPCs mastery so it gives you more damage reduction/more damage against them(that still leaves problem for low ranked or new players that won't have acces to those mastery).

Hope this doesn't end up like one of those posts crying about unbalances in the game,just trying to point out a mistake that was made in recent patch from my perspective.

Have a good day

there was a thread not too long ago about buffing Npc's and many including myself approved it. I really do no see any reasons why to nerf them because their presence do matter, no matter how you look at it. Just like a chess piece; all pieces plays a role and are important in the board.

In fact, i even suggested in giving all Npc's the ability to +1 shoot stealth players including +1 shotting players who hide inside keep after it has been captured. I would introduce creating Knight Npc's to add more layer of protection to the Lord

All quality of life matters including AI's-Npc's, they all should be treated with great care

So again no, i do not approve nerfing them

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@aspirine.6852 said:On the other hand, arent upgraded camps suppose to be harder to cap....

But but but... I'm supposed to start capping the camp before the 'contested' icon even shows on the map, that was super fair and fun :<

@OP if you want npcs to be like ambient mobs, then go ahead and just vote for removing them at all, because what's even the point of their existance.

Xp pinatas didn't you know?

[SuperNix.5061]

Ok i guess i have to reply again as people do not understand the real point of the thread.

SOLO CAPING CAMP/TOWER ISN'T A PROBLEM it's how much time/effort you need to put into doing it.

Maybe some of you are from EU server so you don't understand but in NA it's fairly common to sit on bali or inside golem,or have scouts just waiting to see you trying to take camp to call for gank squad.

In those scenarios as solo player you are literly unable to play the game cause on most roaming builds by the time you kill NPCs people with come to gank you or situation that happened to me where i was literly fighting 7-8 Guards+5-6 Mercanary+Golem and by the time i killed all NPC and put put golem to 70% NPC started respawning and the cicle continued,it's literly waste of time and has nothing to do with someones skill level.

Maybe as someone mentioned is that Golem/Roller shouldn't count towards holding obejctives but i still think that NPCs are the main problem and if possible should be dealt with in a way that doesn't require mastery so new players can have easier time too.

We have to think about newer players in general as the mode is kinda dying out,whoever is from NA server can confirm that player count lowered a lot last 2 years,90% of my own roaming guild isn't playing and they all used to top 5% players(i dare to say top 1%),if i as a very expirienced player see problem in this you can only imagine how hard time can someone just starting will have and please don't be like "git gud","learn to play" and so on,not everyone plays this game to be the best or is elitist,people want to come to WvW and have fun expirience roaming in PvP enviroment.

Think i made myself more clear now,have a good day everyone

[Sobx.1758]

@"SuperNix.5061" said:Ok i guess i have to reply again as people do not understand the real point of the thread.

SOLO CAPING CAMP/TOWER ISN'T A PROBLEM it's how much time/effort you need to put into doing it.

Maybe some of you are from EU server so you don't understand but in NA it's fairly common to sit on bali or inside golem,or have scouts just waiting to see you trying to take camp to call for gank squad.

In those scenarios as solo player you are literly unable to play the game cause on most roaming builds by the time you kill NPCs people with come to gank you or situation that happened to me where i was literly fighting 7-8 Guards+5-6 Mercanary+Golem and by the time i killed all NPC and put put golem to 70% NPC started respawning and the cicle continued,it's literly waste of time and has nothing to do with someones skill level.

Pretty sure people do understand what you're saying, it's you who don't understand that nobody ever said that a camp should be a guaranteed cap for a solo player (a.k.a free xp pinata). People that disagree with you most probably know you're STILL ABLE TO SOLO THE CAMP, and you just DON'T LIKE THAT IT TAKES A LITTLE LONGER, but they* THINK THAT'S A CHANGE IN A CORRECT DIRECTION. We clear now? :D

*I didn't read the whole thread, so by "they" I mostly mean "I".

So literally what I already wrote 3 posts above:

@Sobx.1758 said:@OP if you want npcs to be like ambient mobs, then go ahead and just vote for removing them at all, because what's even the point of their existance.

You want npcs to pretend they're doing something but actually be COMPLETELY irrelevant, that's just stupid.

[Sinfullysweet.4517]

@GlazedEntity.8591 said:

@acidic.4356 said:

@GlazedEntity.8591 said:Exactly prior to patch without the trait it was no fun, now post patch with the trait is much more annoying to take camps I could not imagine without the trait.

if you find it annoying, change how you do it ? learn your class better? pretty sure we were all new once, and have improved ourselves from that point, to now be able to take camps/towers/whateva... you learn stuff as you go, like stackin the camp dudes with los.. etc

I did change how I do it, in that I do not. I don’t play in a PvP based mode to deal with NPCs for so long. And I can always improve and learn my class and others better. However, dealing with a camp of NPCs before was fun and was the right amount of engagement. I just no longer get satisfaction out of taking camps it is more tedious and doesn’t give me value for time/effort = reward. And also when I started I didn’t have a synergetic build or set runes with only exotic gear. I appreciate the discussion but learn your class better is not the end all statement. I can always find a cheap way of taking a camp and many people do. Ex. Speldon you can just draw the champ over and do it for you entertaining but not what got me into the game. Fast paced action style gameplay did.

Lmao I do that all the time. With speld. Thief drawing it in, invisible and it will just melt the camp through ri and all.

[GlazedEntity.8591]

Then they should be higher than veteran NPC. Buff them to be equal of fighting a player.

[Aeolus.3615]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Yeah decent logic: if you can't solo smc you shouldn't be able to solo a sentry too, because this is a team game.

And of course veterans should have an easier time than newbies because this will not kitten of people at all but attract them to get good. Just like in real life, where everyone is prefering having a hard time at any cost. Videogames should never be beginner friendly because you have to look at the bigger pictues. After 500 hours you will start to have fun!

Makes all sense. I am convinced. Thanks!

What class are you playing, weapon and build???

Even a new player can kill a sentry, I was just putting some “carefully with asking to make stuff easy” that was already a mistake during game release.

Can u provide some info about ur gameplays/build ?? Like in asked before..Maybe those vets can help u..I am freaking rank 5000. I have my whole gear on legendary. Balance patches don't hurt me, I just change my build for free. That's not the topic here. I am talking about keeping the game mode healthy and this includes keeping it beginner friendly. All that kitten I achieved means nothing when I don't have anything to fight against anymore.

50% in this thread is elitism bull-kitten. Nothing else.

It is not elitism, it’s just against giving a free low effort cap on something maxed...t2 Still is a free capture, t3 should require effort.

T3 camps should maintain some lvl of difficulty to solo players, I know u are questioning some spongish health pool effect on wvw mobs.

Before patch we could kill every mob easilly even on ministrel stats now it will be painful, we’ll more painful, but that’s up with the player role...and its build objectiveness.

All I can imagine happening is slightlybless HP on some t3 npc but increasing their count by one or two cause t3 should put soloers at check, or maybe decrease health but put some resistance on capturing ring by making it capture slower?

I will insiste, t3 camps should take some time to capture, increased risk of help arriving, increasing risk against NPC.

[acidic.4356]

@"Cambeleg.7632" said:Why to not nerf Keep Lords too, so you can solo them?

Oh, wait! We can also nerf the walls, so you can punch them and go inside without siege!

Seriously, with so many REAL problems that WvW drags since years ago, and we complain about "Awww, I can't solo a t2/t3 camp" or "Awwww, I can't solo a tower by myself".

are the keep lords no longer soloable with the buff? havnt tried any yet. Has anyone else had a chance to try?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Yeah decent logic: if you can't solo smc you shouldn't be able to solo a sentry too, because this is a team game.

And of course veterans should have an easier time than newbies because this will not kitten of people at all but attract them to get good. Just like in real life, where everyone is prefering having a hard time at any cost. Videogames should never be beginner friendly because you have to look at the bigger pictues. After 500 hours you will start to have fun!

Makes all sense. I am convinced. Thanks!

What class are you playing, weapon and build???

Even a new player can kill a sentry, I was just putting some “carefully with asking to make stuff easy” that was already a mistake during game release.

Can u provide some info about ur gameplays/build ?? Like in asked before..Maybe those vets can help u..I am freaking rank 5000. I have my whole gear on legendary. Balance patches don't hurt me, I just change my build for free. That's not the topic here. I am talking about keeping the game mode healthy and this includes keeping it beginner friendly. All that kitten I achieved means nothing when I don't have anything to fight against anymore.

50% in this thread is elitism bull-kitten. Nothing else.

It is not elitism, it’s just against giving a free low effort cap on something maxed...t2 Still is a free capture, t3 should require effort.

T3 camps should maintain some lvl of difficulty to solo players, I know u are questioning some spongish health pool effect on wvw mobs.

Before patch we could kill every mob easilly even on ministrel stats now it will be painful, we’ll more painful, but that’s up with the player role...and its build objectiveness.

All I can imagine happening is slightlybless HP on some t3 npc but increasing their count by one or two cause t3 should put soloers at check, or maybe decrease health but put some resistance on capturing ring by making it capture slower?

I will insiste, t3 camps should take some time to capture, increased risk of help arriving, increasing risk against NPC.

I think the world might be ending soon.... I actually agree with you @Aeolus.3615 ...

I didn’t think that would ever happen.....

[Aeolus.3615]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:Yeah decent logic: if you can't solo smc you shouldn't be able to solo a sentry too, because this is a team game.

And of course veterans should have an easier time than newbies because this will not kitten of people at all but attract them to get good. Just like in real life, where everyone is prefering having a hard time at any cost. Videogames should never be beginner friendly because you have to look at the bigger pictues. After 500 hours you will start to have fun!

Makes all sense. I am convinced. Thanks!

What class are you playing, weapon and build???

Even a new player can kill a sentry, I was just putting some “carefully with asking to make stuff easy” that was already a mistake during game release.

Can u provide some info about ur gameplays/build ?? Like in asked before..Maybe those vets can help u..I am freaking rank 5000. I have my whole gear on legendary. Balance patches don't hurt me, I just change my build for free. That's not the topic here. I am talking about keeping the game mode healthy and this includes keeping it beginner friendly. All that kitten I achieved means nothing when I don't have anything to fight against anymore.

50% in this thread is elitism bull-kitten. Nothing else.

It is not elitism, it’s just against giving a free low effort cap on something maxed...t2 Still is a free capture, t3 should require effort.

T3 camps should maintain some lvl of difficulty to solo players, I know u are questioning some spongish health pool effect on wvw mobs.

Before patch we could kill every mob easilly even on ministrel stats now it will be painful, we’ll more painful, but that’s up with the player role...and its build objectiveness.

All I can imagine happening is slightlybless HP on some t3 npc but increasing their count by one or two cause t3 should put soloers at check, or maybe decrease health but put some resistance on capturing ring by making it capture slower?

I will insiste, t3 camps should take some time to capture, increased risk of help arriving, increasing risk against NPC.

I think the world might be ending soon.... I actually agree with you @Aeolus.3615 ...

I didn’t think that would ever happen.....

Understandable, i know sometimes I’m a bit skumbag and blunt talking....

Been working on being nicer to people.

Tdlr neither of us want a unskilled game where damage and rotation rewards players that easilly, this is not a cowboy duel game :p.

[Cambeleg.7632]

@acidic.4356 said:

@"Cambeleg.7632" said:Why to not nerf Keep Lords too, so you can solo them?

Oh, wait! We can also nerf the walls, so you can punch them and go inside without siege!

Seriously, with so many REAL problems that WvW drags since years ago, and we complain about "Awww, I can't solo a t2/t3 camp" or "Awwww, I can't solo a tower by myself".

are the keep lords no longer soloable with the buff? havnt tried any yet. Has anyone else had a chance to try?

Well, with certain broken builds, maybe yes... I didn't try it again after Burnbrand was a thing, but I get you know what I meant with this, right?

[acidic.4356]

can confirm condi rev can solo hills, was the the 1st oppurtunity since patch to try it.