WvW is amazing now

[Stormscar.5489]

I count any group exploiting the 5 target aoe cap as blobbing, the REAL stale meta in this game. When the next game finally comes along with proper unlimited AoE, blobbers will remember they normalized an engine limitation and passed it off as good tictacs. The game isn't "designed around large group fights" as you think of it at all, it was designed to have lots of small fights happening all over the maps.

The whole 15-30 is a player made fabrication. You've never received the slightest confirmation from Anet dispute 7 years of lobbying. Add to that the lag those big fights induce and it's amazing that anyone could not only present that way of playing as best, but ONLY?? Lol get ye gone

The 5 target cap is so that bombs aren't over the top. Also, there is spvp in the game so obviously wvw is there to fulfill another niche. All the objectives and the power of siege points that you need large, coordinated groups to take structures.

I don't think I fully understand the second sentence of your second paragraph, but if youre saying what I think youre saying, you really think that we need confirmation from Anet about what the game mode is designed for? The lag comes from Anet firstly introducing mounts in the game mode, which massively increases lag. Furthermore, the introduction of elite specialisation and the power creep led to more boons and conditions being applied at once, which increases server load. Btw, at least in 2018 there was almost never lag even in 3 way full zone blob fights. So the things I mentioned, plus iirc the servers being changed, led to this lag.

Again, if you want balanced small scale fight, go pvp. I know your ego might be hurt by meeting equally skilled players and probably ending up in a low division, but hey, I thought roamers want their amazing skill displayed.

[Stormscar.5489]

Chaotic fights with players working together yet as individuals ( a cloud ) are what I find most exciting and one the main reasons I've been a Maguuman for so long. Few things seem more mindless to me than giant deathballs all acting as a cog under the decisions of a single player. I'm not saying there can't be skill/thought behind it or that it's never enjoyable, just that I find mutual co-operation more exciting than obeying commands.

LOL you think clouding is less mindless than 'death balls', when literally clouding involves no skill and no coordination. How is there cooperation in clouding? It's literally random pugs on their bad random builds throwing skills randomly.

[Stormscar.5489]

The only thing you've done is assert your "point/s" without actually doing anything to support them. It's just a bunch of "WvW has to be played this because I said this is what it's for.", and, "If it's not played the way I say then it's not being played right!". It's circular logic at its very best, and that's reaching. There is no evidence in your posts that provides support for your side or refutes what I am saying.

If you think I've said nothing to support my points, then you lack reading comprehension. But then again, what else to expect from someone who uses bruh and XDDDDD. I've provided support for what I've been saying by mentioning the state of the population in the first years of the game, the higher number of guilds present, the constant queues and higher presence of commanders organised on voice comms.

There are a lot of people that -do- come to WvW to roam which comprise the huge groups you say are the only part WvW is good for, and that makes them relevant to the overall balance because they're part of the population. WvW is not -only- about "large scale" fights, and is not just for large scale fights however. If you want to be technical, WvW is a conquest based game mode with PvP/PvE elements that allow several dozen players the opportunity to engage. Literally nowhere in its description does it say we should only fight large scale, or that it is for large scale only fights. Just because that's what you want it to be doesn't mean that is what it's for. Stop cherry picking, its unbecoming.

Yes, currently roamers comprise a big part of the population. This is because, due to lack of support and increasingly high number of players coming into wvw without any desire to cooperate and coordinate with existing groups in WvW, commanders and guilds slowly quit. However, this does not mean that roamers are the core audience for wvw or they should be supported. This situation is very similar to what happened with raids. The core audience for raids and guilds slowly quit as the waiting time for new wings, as well as dissapointment due to the encounters becoming easier since w5, led to raiders quitting the game. Also, let's say what Anet has to say about wvw on their website.

'Join World vs. World (WvW) for an epic PvP experience full of cunning strategy, earthshaking sieges, and pitched battles between hundreds of players. In this massive war, three huge armies—each representing their world—battle for control of the castles and keeps, raid enemy supply caravans, and clash in open-field battles on five massive maps in week-long matches and seasonal tournaments.

The three Borderlands maps and a huge “neutral” center map are loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them, and successfully holding those objectives will make them more powerful over time. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of warlike trebuchets and siege golems.

While in WvW, your character is boosted to max level, and you will continue to gain experience and loot as you normally would while exploring Tyria. You can earn additional prestige by climbing up the world ranks, earned by contributing to the war effort.

World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!'

So keywords from these paragraphs are battles between hundreds of players, massive war, huge armies, massive battles. While roaming is referred to (raiding caravans and raid enemy supply caravans), to not realise from this that the focus is on the large and epic scale of battles is delusional.

Example: You take away the roamers, and people who like to roam, from these big fights you say are the only thing WvW is about, and the guilds which comprise these fights, and you then you end up minimizing the player population to a portion of players who only fight in large groups. Soon enough you can't have large scale fights, because then there may not even be enough players on a map to accomplish these ridiculous terms you're suggesting WvW only exists for. How can you actually not see that? What you suggested excludes -anyone- who roams, or engages in small scale skirmishes, from having a voice in how they feel the game should or could be balanced, and that only players like you, or even only you, should have a say in the way the game mode is operated. That is fundamentally wrong. So no, I didn't miss your point, you just completely and utterly failed to refute me or mine.

If players that are on the map are not joining these fights, then the only effect it will have on large scale fights will be lower queues. If these players are roaming, they are not properly part of these fights, so they might as well not be there. I, and many other players, have no interest in players who do not want to play as part of a group in wvw. Furthermore, most often these 'roamers' just end up following organised groups and leech kills/wxp. They just want the benefits of an organised group without any effort (coordinating, bringing a proper group build, being on voice).

Please read and interpret the rest of my posts as intended because if you can't do that then there is no need to continue, and you're just going to keep going to desperately get the last word in. What you're insinuating is that only...certain, special people are relevant, which proportionately equates to a small collective, which excludes the ability to make this about large scale fights. You have no foundation on who those people are, nor provided criteria to be met which makes them relevant, other than some conspiratorial criteria based on who they are because you may or may not like their youtube channel, or something to that effect, lol. That's the vibe I get off you. So that precedent can be dismissed. I encompassed a very well-established plurality of players, without dismissing the whole population, whom enjoy roaming in WvW and were/are negatively impacted by the most recent patch.

Who said I don't know who these people are? What the fuck does youtube have to do with it? it is simply people who join squads, who join discord if a commander is leading there, who are willing to learn if they are new (because there are certainly people willing to teach) and who will bring an appropriate build for fighting in a group. That's it.

The fact that what you thought I said about addressing your second paragraph as 'empty words' really just gives me greater insight as to how dense you are. I mean seriously, stop struggling so much, you're just going to drown faster. =/ You clearly don't understand the most rudimentary functions of debate, so again I guess you're just going to try and circumvent the process of an argument? I can't tell, just seems like you're rambling in your struggle to grasp a point you never made or one I made that you clearly don't understand. WvW should and can be balanced off of the entire player population, which includes roamers since you seem stuck on that premise (though you interpreted my point incorrectly). Unfortunately for your entire stance, roamers matter. If you think otherwise, you have to provide a reason why, but you can't because your argument right now is, "Roamers don't matter because I think they shouldn't because large scale fights are all this is about". Everything you're trying to present as fact is/was purely situational, and based on askew exacting standards regarding how you feel the game must be played, even versus a readily available descriptor, which I wouldn't be surprised if you took some meanings out of context (see also;cherry picking).

So again, lol...ok.

Those were empty words because you said I was trying to circumvent an argument, without stating exactly what I was avoiding or how my words there were not discussing the topic at hand. Again, in this very paragraph you bring up things which have nothing to do with what we are discussing (wvw). You're talking about rambling, but you start bringing up the functions of debating. To bring up the comparison I made with raids again, wvw or any game mode should not be balanced around the entire population, it should be balanced and designed for a certain audience. If you try to please everyone, more often than not you will end up pissing everyone off or ending with a very mediocre result. So no, roamers don't matter just as very casual pve players (those pressing 111 with their soldier ranger) should not try to be encouraged to raid by altering the design of endgame pve content. Also, how is you stating that roamers matter different from me saying roaming does not matter? Where are your facts, where are your statistics? You haven't made a single argument about why roaming should be actively encouraged and designed for, except that you like to do it and that there are roamers present in wvw.

Please provide any reason why I think the game mode dying is wrong, because at this point I don't think you have fully grasped the meaning of why WvW is actually losing its player population and why fewer and fewer players are present. Whole guilds have left because of the introduction of mounts into WvW (that's a whole different gripe) so you're actually telling me this most recent patch, dedicated to down-toning skills and damages, and skill, isn't having an impact on groups as well as roamers? That's just two examples from me, there are a plethora of other reason i didn't address because I didn't think it was necessary to state the complete and utter obviousness. You literally can't offhandedly agree with me and then tell me I'm wrong, LOL!!!! My premise clearly encompasses that I believe this patch is doing, has done, and may continue to do more harm than good and that the base population is going to a.) accept it because they don't know any better (like you) or b.) going to accept it because there isn't a way to improve it and they must accept the lesser of two evils.

I already explained earlier why WvW is losing its population. Hint: its not because roamers are leaving, actually roamers have become a larger proportion of the playerbase. Yes, introducing the mount in wvw has been terrible, because maps are not designed with the travel speed of mounts in mind plus it causes more lag. Where did I say the balance patch did not have an impact on WvW? The balance patch is good, because it decreased the time to kill in large group fights, fights aren't decided anymore from the first spike, possible melee uptime is increased. Your premise doesn't include the third option, that the base population will accept it because it is a step in the right direction for group fights, and that they don't give a shit about roaming. Again, spvp awaits you if you want equally skilled and appropriately balanced fights between low number of players.

I never suggested the sole reason that WvW is dying because "roaming balance" isn't supported. I actually, truly cannot see how you thought that is where I was going with this. Like...seriously, how you picked -THAT- out of everything I said as the one and only reason genuinely blows my mind...that's truly a disappointment.

It is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn by how you've only ever focused on and mentioned your precious roaming and how the balance patch ruined roaming etc.

Finally, you are incorrect. You agreed with me because twas I who made the point in the first place (not like it hasn't been said repeatedly). The main difference is the reasons I think WvW is dying are tangible. You mostly want to believe it's dying for reasons to spite me because you're too thick to come up with a way to reasonably excuse why several of us on this thread thought what you said was stupid. You're grasping at straws and trying to ride my coat tails to make yourself look better, but it isn't actually achieving the effect you wanted. You're dense and what you said was stupid, so I suggest you should own up to it and learn.

You thinking that my reasoned arguments are made to try to spite some random roamer on the gw2 forums, you're funnier than I thought. It is irrelevant what people on this forum think and if they disagree with me, comments such as yours have already been posted on the discord of several EU forums and laughed at. So if you think that the number of people agreeing with one or the other is what decides if an argument is won, well I win ;).

[supreme.3602]

Nice drama :) keep it up

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Honestly whether it increased TTK is debatable.

Fights were long before patch, and really the only difference is that prior to patch, the floor and ceiling for damage and healing was greater. So back then, if you had two guild groups that fought each other, in order to survive a big damage push, you needed big healing, and you could have a long fight with a higher stringent of risk if you couldn’t keep up sustain

If you were a rag tag pug group fighting a guild group then of course u’d die on the first push because the separation of between the floor and ceiling was higher.

Now though, the pugs have a “chance” at the expense of making the game a total snooze fest, and the group with more numbers is favored because smaller groups with better comps prior to patch could pull off outnumbered fights if they were better players, due to the higher ceiling. That doesn’t exist anymore and now it’s blob or get squished, because the floor and ceiling are so close now.

Prior to patch I remember having a 3 way guild battle that lasted for nearly 3 hours at bay....probably the most adrenaline filled 3 hours ever.

Fights are long now too but it’s for a different reason...because everything hits for the damage a strongly noodle.

[Blakhart.5024]

Im not as well informed as most of the people here. I take months off at a time of not playing GW2 so I dont have the plethora of experience many of you do.

I have, however, played the game since launch, seen various versions of WvW...seen tons of metas come and go.

From my view - WvW still sucks ass and it always has. The game mode has, and still is, always about the massive zerg. I hate this gameplay. I only do it because Anet forces me to for reward tracks and legendaries. It is always zerg vs zerg. You get very little accomplished, hence very little reward, for small group play. I MUCH prefer the PvP arenas, in which I have a lot more personal success.

And this "ZERG" mechanic is the entire reason why this game mode fails for me. As a warrior today, didnt matter which build I tried, inc spellbreaker/Def, I rarely survived the initial rush. Literally impossible to be a decent melee combatant when you try to close distance and have nothing but 20 AoE condi circles at your feet. Insta death is bullshit.

Ive resorted to either using LB simply so I can tag a few things while sitting toward the middle of the pack. Or to being a banner battery. Cause otherwise im just a useless melee that cant close range and dies instantly.

[Blakhart.5024]

@Styles.7469 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@"Stormscar.5489" said:Man there is so much misinformation and lack of knowledge in this thread, probably coming from bad servers/guilds/roamers. First of all, nobody cares about roaming balance, wvw balance is for group fights, whether it is 15/30/50+ etc. If you want balance for small scale fights, you can go pvp.

Yeah, so much ignorance. BLOBBING IS ALL, ONLY BLOBBERS MATTER

First of all, Lol Letoll.

Second of all, Stormscar, you're wholly incorrect. Thank you for demonstrating the mindset of a player who does not have a firm grasp of the WvW game mode. sPvP and WvW have never been the same, and some of the best roamers I've ever encountered come from sPvP to WvW -specifically- to roam, either solo, duo, or with their "team". I have done this, and it has helped me become a better player in sPvP and WvW alike. What you regard as, "Nobody cares about roaming balance" equates to a gross misunderstanding on how WvW functions across every server and tier.

The whole problem with your concept that roamers matter etc... Well. Just how fast does your reward track progress when you arent in a zerg ?

If I catch a few good zergs a week I can be done with my reward track I need in no time. Otherwise im twiddling thumbs for over a month.

To pure PvPers whoa rent necessarily chasing just the rewards this may not be as much of an issue

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Blakhart.5024 said:

@Styles.7469 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@"Stormscar.5489" said:Man there is so much misinformation and lack of knowledge in this thread, probably coming from bad servers/guilds/roamers. First of all, nobody cares about roaming balance, wvw balance is for group fights, whether it is 15/30/50+ etc. If you want balance for small scale fights, you can go pvp.

Yeah, so much ignorance. BLOBBING IS ALL, ONLY BLOBBERS MATTER

First of all, Lol Letoll.

Second of all, Stormscar, you're wholly incorrect. Thank you for demonstrating the mindset of a player who does not have a firm grasp of the WvW game mode. sPvP and WvW have never been the same, and some of the best roamers I've ever encountered come from sPvP to WvW -specifically- to roam, either solo, duo, or with their "team". I have done this, and it has helped me become a better player in sPvP and WvW alike. What you regard as, "Nobody cares about roaming balance" equates to a gross misunderstanding on how WvW functions across every server and tier.

The whole problem with your concept that roamers matter etc... Well. Just how fast does your reward track progress when you arent in a zerg ?

If I catch a few good zergs a week I can be done with my reward track I need in no time. Otherwise im twiddling thumbs for over a month.

To pure PvPers whoa rent necessarily chasing just the rewards this may not be as much of an issue

On the other side of things sounds like ur concept is to play for rewards and not for a fun experience. Maybe reward track should be changed to more equally reward all styles of play in wvw cuz after all the draw to it is the open world pvp not just zerg play. As it is I donno why the don't just reduce the maps 80% in size and just have 3 main keeps close to each other lol constant zerg play if that's what Anet wants to reward lol

[LetoII.3782]

@"Stormscar.5489" said:

I count any group exploiting the 5 target aoe cap as blobbing, the REAL stale meta in this game. When the next game finally comes along with proper unlimited AoE, blobbers will remember they normalized an engine limitation and passed it off as good tictacs. The game isn't "designed around large group fights" as you think of it at all, it was designed to have lots of small fights happening all over the maps.

The whole 15-30 is a player made fabrication. You've never received the slightest confirmation from Anet dispute 7 years of lobbying. Add to that the lag those big fights induce and it's amazing that anyone could not only present that way of playing as best, but

ONLY

?? Lol get ye gone

The 5 target cap is so that bombs aren't over the top.

Anet itself has literally stated the exact opposite. This is a 5v5 game with some open world pvp shoehorned in. All mmo's have AoE, only this one limits it so drastically.

Also, there is spvp in the game so obviously wvw is there to fulfill another niche. All the objectives and the power of siege points that you need large, coordinated groups to take structures.

Right, got your triple point conquest and got your mass participation tower flipper. The two types of pvp that exist

I don't think I fully understand the second sentence of your second paragraph, but if youre saying what I think youre saying, you really think that we need confirmation from Anet about what the game mode is designed for?

You sat through the same horn tooting from the gvg crowd I did. Or maybe you're new? You do seem a bit fresh.

The lag comes from Anet firstly introducing mounts in the game mode, which massively increases lag. Furthermore, the introduction of elite specialisation and the power creep led to more boons and conditions being applied at once, which increases server load. Btw, at least in 2018 there was almost never lag even in 3 way full zone blob fights. So the things I mentioned, plus iirc the servers being changed, led to this lag.

This is so completely incorrect I'm a bit amazed to see someone post it... I mean, the whole reason my guild moved away from blobbing 24/7 was due to the constant lag, 6 years ago. It's been a steady complaint since launch.

Again, if you want balanced small scale fight, go pvp. I know your ego might be hurt by meeting equally skilled players and probably ending up in a low division, but hey, I thought roamers want their amazing skill displayed.

Considering the bots have made it to gold league, I can assure you spvp isn't what you imagine it is. I never claimed to want balanced fights and after 7 years I have no clue what a roamer is besides someone too reclusive to play the team game on a team of more than one. It's not binary: solo or blob, blob is a tactic. There's other ways to play effectively despite the insistence of blobbers.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Blakhart.5024 said:The whole problem with your concept that roamers matter etc... Well. Just how fast does your reward track progress when you arent in a zerg ?

What does that have to do with anything????

Reward track progresses based on your level of participation, which determines how many points you earn per 5 minute interval. You earn participation by doing pretty much everything in WvW. A zerg player can flip towers and T3 keeps all day long and go toe-to-toe with blobs, while a solo roamer can kill every lone sentry, dolyak and camp with ease, and fight 1v1 or 1vx, and both will easily keep their participation at T6. Additionally solo roamers tend to be where your server's blob isn't, so chances are you will get [Outnumbered] on the BL you're on, which makes it dirt easy to maintain max participation (and moves your skirmish reward track along much faster).

[Stormscar.5489]

Anet itself has literally stated the exact opposite. This is a 5v5 game with some open world pvp shoehorned in. All mmo's have AoE, only this one limits it so drastically.

I don't know how it is in all MMOs, but in WoW at least aoes are way less powerful than they are in GW2. I would bet AoEs are weaker in many other mmos too. If you have a quote from Anet that says the 5 target cap on AoEs isn't there because otherwise large fights would be unplayable as one bomb could wipe out the enemy blob in seconds, please show me.

You sat through the same horn tooting from the gvg crowd I did. Or maybe you're new? You do seem a bit fresh.

GvGs are an extension and more organised form of group fights, so it is not so different from what I see as the main focus of wvw.

This is so completely incorrect I'm a bit amazed to see someone post it... I mean, the whole reason my guild moved away from blobbing 24/7 was due to the constant lag, 6 years ago. It's been a steady complaint since launch.

I am aware there was lag at the start of the game, but there were points were it had gone almost completely. I took a one year break at the end of 2018 and lag was not an issue back then. When I came back recently, it had suddenly become a massive issue again.

Considering the bots have made it to gold league, I can assure you spvp isn't what you imagine it is. I never claimed to want balanced fights and after 7 years I have no clue what a roamer is besides someone too reclusive to play the team game on a team of more than one. It's not binary: solo or blob, blob is a tactic. There's other ways to play effectively despite the insistence of blobbers.

I know spvp isn't what it should be, but the fact that bots can get to gold just shows the low skill level of the remaining gw2 players. Blobbing is not a tactic, it's a unique form of pvp that is not possible in other MMOs or even pvp genres which is what attracted so many players to wvw in the first place. I do not play as part of a group so I can farm easy bags, I play it for the enjoyment of coordinating with other players. I always hope and seek challenging and well balanced fights, and end up logging off if the fights become one sided or if the only remaining way to get any action is to get inside structures to farm a cloud of pugs (which is not fun, even if you can get bags).

[Shroud.2307]

@"Stormscar.5489" said:

Chaotic fights with players working together yet as individuals ( a cloud ) are what I find most exciting and one the main reasons I've been a Maguuman for so long. Few things seem more mindless to me than giant deathballs all acting as a cog under the decisions of a single player. I'm not saying there can't be skill/thought behind it or that it's never enjoyable, just that I find mutual co-operation more exciting than obeying commands.

LOL you think clouding is less mindless than 'death balls', when literally clouding involves no skill and no coordination. How is there cooperation in clouding? It's literally random pugs on their bad random builds throwing skills randomly.

I think when I cloud. I observe the movements and habits of an offending group, I assess openings, I consider the position of my teammates, I relay info to /say and /map, etc. When I zerg I just do as the commander asks (with some exceptions because I never follow blindly). The former is a lot more engaging to me because it is more actively thoughtful where as the latter often becomes boring to me rather quickly because there isn't enough effort involved for me to feel excited.

I do think clouding is less mindless but that doesn't mean I think it's skillful. I believe everyone is thinking for themselves and it won't work unless everyone is competent enough to apply pressure when/where necessary. This is why most servers can't do it - their pugs aren't smart enough to recognize these things and aren't dangerous without being told what to do by someone else.

Blobbing and clouding are both brainless but blobbing only needs one mind to work where as clouding needs everyone's.

Also in regard to "bad random builds", yeah, exactly another reason I find it more enjoyable. To see builds designed for roaming and ganking taking out builds that are wholly dependent on their teammates to be effective ( eg. Scourge, Firebrand ). Gotta say the irony of watching organized groups be torn apart by what they refuse to make use of in their zergs is never not fun to be a part of.

[Stormscar.5489]

I think when I cloud. I observe the movements and habits of an offending group, I assess openings, I consider the position of my teammates, I relay info to /say and /map, etc. When I zerg I just do as the commander asks (with some exceptions because I never follow blindly). The former is a lot more engaging to me because it is more actively thoughtful where as the latter often becomes boring to me rather quickly because there isn't enough effort involved for me to feel excited.

If during a fight, whether it is cloudy or blobby, you have time to type in say chat or map chat, then you're fighting terrible players

I do think clouding is less mindless but that doesn't mean I think it's skillful. I believe everyone is thinking for themselves and it won't work unless everyone is competent enough to apply pressure when/where necessary. This is why most servers can't do it - their pugs aren't smart enough to recognize these things and aren't dangerous without being told what to do by someone else.

Literally any server can cloud, because all you do is go away when the group is going in one direction and the people behind press their buttons. Rinse and repeat.

Also in regard to "bad random builds", yeah, exactly another reason I find it more enjoyable. To see builds designed for roaming and ganking taking out builds that are wholly dependent on their teammates to be effective ( eg. Scourge, Firebrand ). Gotta say the irony of watching organized groups be torn apart by what they refuse to make use of in their zergs is never not fun to be a part of.

Only bad groups fall to clouders, or if theyre vastly outnumbered or if the clouders get to rerun a few times.

[Ramjam.4507]

@"Stormscar.5489" said:Why you think the gamemode is dieing is wrong, and this is the point of my post. Your whole argument starts from the wrong premise, that WvW is dieing because roaming is not supported enough (in this case, through balance). However, roaming in the first place is a very minor part of WvW that shouldn't be even given attention until the main focus of the gamemode (large scale fights) is addressed.

All your posts about Relevant players or not, and that big blob fights are what WvW is ment to be about all is just subjective from your point of view, WvW at it's core is just 4 big open maps with large scale and small scale objectives for each team to tackle how they best see fit, that includes roaming just as much as blobs.

From my experience in WvW since release of the game untill now is around 50-60% of the players in WvW mostly participate in blob fights, either organised guild runs or Pug groups, and 40-50% of the player base in wvw is roaming with 1-5 man party, and lets not forget other parts of the bigger picture too, like getting back to a squad after killed, spreading out to spy for your guild group, roamers messaging map/team chat to inform enemy movements, taking smaller objectives less worthwhile for a big blob to aim for, it's not less or more "Relevant" then large scale fights.

I mean I really want them to adress large scale fights too, I wish they could turn down the revive speeds and instant revies except for really long CDs if so for example, I do run with my guild around 2-3 hours 4 times a week or so, and occationally participate or help a pug group, but most of my time I'm roaming either solo or with a few friends, I like the randomness of wvw, I like fighting outnumbered and sometimes succeeding, and I do like the small scale fights and or Duels, but what I don't like is SPVP... I'v done fairly well in it, but it's just not fun at all, if I try to have fun playing it team usually gets annnoyed because you'r not playing the meta (build or strategy)... SPVP is the most boring thing I could think of... and each game is taken too serriously, I just wanna chill and have fun, when I do play pvp I sometimes let the enemy take points on purpose, just to retake it, I'm not really looking to "win the game" kinda mentality, and that doesn't fit with other types of players there, I dislike the whole concept of "structured" pvp.. I want to roam a map and just bump into random situations and the thrill of somehow mannaging to survive a whole zerg chasing you, or taking a tier 3 tower during peak hour with only 3 people under the nose of a superior enemy force before they react.

Why shouldn't that kind of gameplay that me and a big part of the community enjoy also be looked at? not sayin before, but neither after balancing blob fights either.

[Rashagar.8349]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

Chaotic fights with players working together yet as individuals ( a cloud ) are what I find most exciting and one the main reasons I've been a Maguuman for so long. Few things seem more mindless to me than giant deathballs all acting as a cog under the decisions of a single player. I'm not saying there can't be skill/thought behind it or that it's never enjoyable, just that I find mutual co-operation more exciting than obeying commands.

Same. It's absolutely the most satisfying way to play for me.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Stormscar.5489" said:Only bad groups fall to clouders, or if theyre vastly outnumbered or if the clouders get to rerun a few times.The reason only "bad" groups fall is because the "good" groups use their "skilled" 2/3rds healer comp to simply facetank through damage.

But yes, the very point to cloud is to swarm the enemy. Thats why we used clouding against bad groups such as Red Guard to win. It was even easier back then when we could disrupt waterfield stacks.

[Shroud.2307]

@"Stormscar.5489" said:

I think when I cloud. I observe the movements and habits of an offending group, I assess openings, I consider the position of my teammates, I relay info to /say and /map, etc. When I zerg I just do as the commander asks (with some exceptions because I never follow blindly). The former is a lot more engaging to me because it is more actively thoughtful where as the latter often becomes boring to me rather quickly because there isn't enough effort involved for me to feel excited.

If during a fight, whether it is cloudy or blobby, you have time to type in say chat or map chat, then you're fighting terrible players

I do think clouding is less mindless but that doesn't mean I think it's skillful. I believe everyone is thinking for themselves and it won't work unless everyone is competent enough to apply pressure when/where necessary. This is why most servers can't do it - their pugs aren't smart enough to recognize these things and aren't dangerous without being told what to do by someone else.

Literally any server can cloud, because all you do is go away when the group is going in one direction and the people behind press their buttons. Rinse and repeat.

Also in regard to "bad random builds", yeah, exactly another reason I find it more enjoyable. To see builds designed for roaming and ganking taking out builds that are wholly dependent on their teammates to be effective ( eg. Scourge, Firebrand ). Gotta say the irony of watching organized groups be torn apart by what they refuse to make use of in their zergs is never not fun to be a part of.

Only bad groups fall to clouders, or if theyre vastly outnumbered or if the clouders get to rerun a few times.

I have a hard time taking you seriously when you say;

Literally any server can cloud, because all you do is go away when the group is going in one directionbecause of all my time in WvW it has never ceased to amaze me how hard this is to comprehend for people. I've been on just about every server NA and about half of them on EU and I can say from first hand experience that most servers cannot cloud becausego away when the group is going in one directionis too thought intensive for the majority of pugs. Most of them just stand directly in front of the train and die instantly with any survivors usually soon to follow.

This again is why I say I believe it is less mindless. It doesn't work if only half of the pugs are smart enough to position themselves where as with a blob ( speaking pug blob, not guild group ) they have enough support, meta classes and a commander to direct them to continue to operate even if they lose a bunch.

Your average pug blob is bad. And honestly your average guild group is too. The point is that one only needs to have it's head cut off to become a zerg of headless chickens where as the other will always be that way unless each player present is competent enough to not need to be told what to do.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:This again is why I say I believe it is less mindless.Shush now, dont kill the illusion.

[Styles.7469]

Stormscar, I must apologize. I confused what you were trying to say with stupidity, and realize my error is that I didn't recognize it is much deeper than that. Now I see why I was told to stop trying to convince you how ridiculous you sound and I'm glad I'm willing to listen to reason, unlike you. Kudos and I bid thee adieu. I 100% guarantee you'll count this as some weird victory for yourself, so you go ahead and pat yourself on the back, bud. =) I'm sure you think you deserve it.

[Styles.7469]

@Blakhart.5024 said:

@Styles.7469 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@"Stormscar.5489" said:Man there is so much misinformation and lack of knowledge in this thread, probably coming from bad servers/guilds/roamers. First of all, nobody cares about roaming balance, wvw balance is for group fights, whether it is 15/30/50+ etc. If you want balance for small scale fights, you can go pvp.

Yeah, so much ignorance. BLOBBING IS ALL, ONLY BLOBBERS MATTER

First of all, Lol Letoll.

Second of all, Stormscar, you're wholly incorrect. Thank you for demonstrating the mindset of a player who does not have a firm grasp of the WvW game mode. sPvP and WvW have never been the same, and some of the best roamers I've ever encountered come from sPvP to WvW -specifically- to roam, either solo, duo, or with their "team". I have done this, and it has helped me become a better player in sPvP and WvW alike. What you regard as, "Nobody cares about roaming balance" equates to a gross misunderstanding on how WvW functions across every server and tier.

The whole problem with your concept that roamers matter etc... Well. Just how fast does your reward track progress when you arent in a zerg ?

If I catch a few good zergs a week I can be done with my reward track I need in no time. Otherwise im twiddling thumbs for over a month.

To pure PvPers whoa rent necessarily chasing just the rewards this may not be as much of an issue

My reward track and pip gain is based off of participation just like everyone else. For instance: Once I get my participation to 6 all I really have to do every now and then, if I'm being lazy, is flip a camp or kill a player, and I only need to do that once every ten minutes for those two types of objectives to keep my participation up. As long as I keep my participation at 6, which I think is +195 or something for reward tracks, then it progresses the same regardless of whether or not I'm in a mindless blob or if I'm out solo roaming. Boosters and other items help increase the rate of my gain but none of them, as far as I know, benefit from -more- players being in my immediate vicinity. The only thing I can think of is if you're publicly commanding, and have like ten players in your squad? That grants four extra pips iirc, but meh, you still get more for playing on an outmanned map which grants +5, lol.

Did you mean WxP gain?

[Stormscar.5489]

The reason only "bad" groups fall is because the "good" groups use their "skilled" 2/3rds healer comp to simply facetank through damage.

I mean yeah, regardless of if you fight clouders or blobs, each party should have a support besides the fb, and warriors are better atm on their support build too. So that's right, each party should have 2 or 3 supports.

But yes, the very point to cloud is to swarm the enemy. Thats why we used clouding against bad groups such as Red Guard to win. It was even easier back then when we could disrupt waterfield stacks.

Maybe that happened, but I doubt that Red Guard got clouded and killed by equal numbers.

[Stormscar.5489]

@Styles.7469 said:Stormscar, I must apologize. I confused what you were trying to say with stupidity, and realize my error is that I didn't recognize it is much deeper than that. Now I see why I was told to stop trying to convince you how ridiculous you sound and I'm glad I'm willing to listen to reason, unlike you. Kudos and I bid thee adieu. I 100% guarantee you'll count this as some weird victory for yourself, so you go ahead and pat yourself on the back, bud. =) I'm sure you think you deserve it.

Alright, I'm glad to see you recognise you didn't have anything valuable to say and you're also ignoring in your last comment, just like in the other ones, any arguments while resorting to calling me stupid.

Goodbye buddy.

[KurokawaKazuma.8641]

Boonbeast and Condi herald are absolutely disgraceful in WvW.These two promote "my build is better than your build" rather than skill.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Blakhart.5024 said:

@Styles.7469 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@"Stormscar.5489" said:Man there is so much misinformation and lack of knowledge in this thread, probably coming from bad servers/guilds/roamers. First of all, nobody cares about roaming balance, wvw balance is for group fights, whether it is 15/30/50+ etc. If you want balance for small scale fights, you can go pvp.

Yeah, so much ignorance. BLOBBING IS ALL, ONLY BLOBBERS MATTER

First of all, Lol Letoll.

Second of all, Stormscar, you're wholly incorrect. Thank you for demonstrating the mindset of a player who does not have a firm grasp of the WvW game mode. sPvP and WvW have never been the same, and some of the best roamers I've ever encountered come from sPvP to WvW -specifically- to roam, either solo, duo, or with their "team". I have done this, and it has helped me become a better player in sPvP and WvW alike. What you regard as, "Nobody cares about roaming balance" equates to a gross misunderstanding on how WvW functions across every server and tier.

The whole problem with your concept that roamers matter etc... Well. Just how fast does your reward track progress when you arent in a zerg ?

If I catch a few good zergs a week I can be done with my reward track I need in no time. Otherwise im twiddling thumbs for over a month.

To pure PvPers whoa rent necessarily chasing just the rewards this may not be as much of an issue

Just as fast as everyone else who is on T6 participation? But I don't play WvW for the rewards. I roam because I enjoy smallscale fights and duels. I tend to prefer PvP because I can get straight to the action and sometimes the stats are better (a little more controlled), but WvW gives me a different experience. There are no "fair" fights here. Anything can happen!

Zerg play is just boring to me. I don't enjoy fighting walls and blobbing. It's not for me.

[Aridon.8362]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:I don’t think you actually play large scale. The Meta hadn’t changed much, it’s just condi now.

People think antitoxin will save them is a huge joke to me and it should be pretty obvious why it won’t work to counter the condo meta.

Build diversity took a nose dive, as most builds in large scale became completely non-viable.

If there is one thing I do enjoy, it’s the implementation of the warclaw aura, which helps new players without a warclaw. And 2v2 I enjoy.

Ahaha way to kill that momentum hard. I come by to check out how WvW actually is from time to time and this made my day. I'm not coming back into this game mode until ANET actually cares about it.

PVE is actually fun now, that's the funniest part of all, WvW is in fact the most boring game mode out there.