Raids are not balanced when there is a 9-10k Difference between professions.

[Obtena.7952]

@Erzian.5218 said:That is one conclusion you can draw. It doesn't change that another conclusion, which is equally true, is that class balanced could use improvements for the sake of players who care about class flavor and performance instead of just one or the other.

That's not a conclusion, it's simply a statement about what Anet could do (and recall, you already said it would be really hard for Anet to do that as well). Making a list of things Anet could do is certainly not a compelling reason to change the game to do those things. I don't see a reason they need to do that, especially considering how hard you think it would be for them to do so. You haven't said why they need to do it, except because players want it.

The fact is that the truth of that statement doesn't change that those improvements aren't needed because of the way the game is designed and the choices you can make. The value here is understanding why the game works like it has for 7 years so you can learn how to play how you want, not simply stating Anet should do something because they can.

[Erzian.5218]

I don't see any reason to discuss this any further. Plenty of arguments have been made but you just ignore them either way, because you personally don't value comparable class performance. It has become obvious that you simply do not care about people with different interests than yourself and just discard their opinion as long as you are happy yourself, despite acknowledging the imbalance. I am done here, have a good night.

[Obtena.7952]

I'm not ignoring anything, I hear what you say and simply digging deeper to the root cause of the problem. I recognize the solution already exists to address it. The problem isn't necro's don't have enough DPS because if that was true, it would be true for EVERY necro. The problem is that you're making the wrong choices. Unlike you, I understand that dealing with the root cause is much better approach to solving problems. Luckily for us, Anet has already dealt with that root cause, which means the solution is already in player's hands.

The only thing being ignored here is when you are told you can succeed at the game by making different choices ... and it's a proven bit of advise as well. You don't want to hear it because it's not the solution you want.

[Shena Fu.5792]

@Obtena.7952 saidYou don't want to hear it because it's not the solution you want.

Telling players to stop playing is not a solution.

[Obtena.7952]

@Shena Fu.5792 said:

@Obtena.7952 saidYou don't want to hear it because it's not the solution you want.

Telling players to stop playing is not a solution.

That's true ... and I never suggested that as a solution anyways so I don't get where you are trying to go with this post. What I am sure of is that I look forward to your next one.

[Josiah.2967]

@Erzian.5218 said:I don't see any reason to discuss this any further. Plenty of arguments have been made but you just ignore them either way, because you personally don't value comparable class performance. It has become obvious that you simply do not care about people with different interests than yourself and just discard their opinion as long as you are happy yourself, despite acknowledging the imbalance. I am done here, have a good night.

I appreciate this! All that person has been doing is belittling others (including myself) that are in non-casual guilds. He doesn't want necromancers to be competitive. If you participate in speed clears, carries, and more he will find a way to twist your words and call you toxic. If you try to help others or state facts, you somehow become the problem. I would love to see Necromancers included again in the main raid teams; however, to make fights quicker and easier (having the ability to skip mechanics), we are going to stack guardians (which are easy to learn) and mesmers with the necessary easy to play banner warrior that buffs others while providing incredible DPS all things considered. Beginner Necromancers (who apply for non-casual guilds) are now doing less DPS than beginner for other classes because the balance (spread) has become to great. Necromancers are not alone in this, they just get unfairly picked on for some reason.

It almost feels like chauvinism.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Erzian.5218 said:I don't see any reason to discuss this any further. Plenty of arguments have been made but you just ignore them either way, because you personally don't value comparable class performance. It has become obvious that you simply do not care about people with different interests than yourself and just discard their opinion as long as you are happy yourself, despite acknowledging the imbalance. I am done here, have a good night.

All that person has been doing is belittling others that are in non-casual guilds. He doesn't want necromancers to be competitive. If you participate in speed clears, carries, and more he will find a way to twist your words and call you toxic. If you try to help others or state facts, you somehow become the problem.

None of that is true, but I will leave it here for prosperity. If you feel belittled, you're simply too sensitive; nothing I've said has been personal or specific to people in non-casual guilds. You have no idea what I want for necros and you have no idea what I think of you if you speed clear, get carry or carry someone or what would be needed for me to call anyone toxic. No one here has been labeled problematic because of stating facts or helping anyone either. If you want to sink your thread, that's your choice, but I will continue to respond to these ridiculous and false claims about me and my intentions.

You simply want a specific solution to a problem where the solution already exists for any player that exercises their options that are widely available to them. Insulting me (or trying to at least) doesn't change that fact.

[Nephalem.8921]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:just asking, why should an easy, high hp, roll-your-face-on-the-keyboard class even approach the DPS of a low hp, hard to get the rotation right class?

doesn't sound fair, does it?

Asking the right questions. Sadly they will never nerf firebrand. You forgot to mention that they can have 100% quickness uptime with close to no personal dps loss if you stack them and way higher dps than bench if you get tome resets.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@noiwk.2760 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@noiwk.2760 said:is there even anything balanced in the game right now? PVP WVW doesnt seem any more balanced than the were before the "balance patch" only abit worse if anything i still wait to see the fix on FB and necro and some others.

but when it comes to PVE its really is awful.. some classes are worth playing some just not.. some support classes (berzeker banner) can do more dps than a full dps classes? or support FB.. why would anyone play any other support when all you need is FB?and thats true for both raids and also fractals.. the gap between classes is far too big.. for both support and for dps. also the meta of build full zeker and everyone does damage is abit meh? mesmer tank build full damage aside for 1 gear with some toughness and supports trying to build around damage.. and only offensive boons counts.. so only FB is really good choice.. the game need a large and massage balance and thats true for PVE content aswell.. condi builds sucking bad at fractals is also not much fun..

Some harder bosses are tanked in minstrel to reduce risk of wiping. defensive boons count. prot and resistance are covered when needed.Regarding fractals, cfb is still op in most fractals. its just not that strong in 99 and 100.

thing is.. that protection you also get from FB.. FB is the ultimate support. and regardless of how good Scourge can be.. due to lack of boons offensive boons he just cant replace FB as main support. and thats the issue of PVE.. you have classes that are 100% better no matter how you look at it.. its same with dps classes.. i play spell breaker right now.. its dps is trash compared to some others.. gurdian is just stupid strong in pve.. the balance right now is just bad..

Spellbreaker isn't a class, warrior is. If you want to dps with warrior and pick spb spec instead of berk then nobody is at fault here other than you.

Yep lol.

I regret finding this thread. I'm too casual so I don't get why people are so srs about pve. I mean, I really doubt most of this thread hits anywhere near SC benchmark on any class, nor do they play with people that do, nor is anything resembling benchmark dps necessary for fractals or raids. (Haven't tried Strike missions, but how hard are those really). Most people would be competitive simply by using consumables and going to the golem for like 20 minutes.

[Nimon.7840]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:just asking, why should an easy, high hp, roll-your-face-on-the-keyboard class even approach the DPS of a low hp, hard to get the rotation right class?

doesn't sound fair, does it?

we're talking about Necro here, not Warrior!

I am sorry, necro does not faceroll, necro does face smash the keyboard....

I'd imagine, that you would be a pretty bad necro. There's classes with much simpler rotations that to significantly more damage

[LadyKitty.6120]

There's a reason why there's balance patches: to change the balance. And after a good while of reducing the gaps between best versions of each power/condi class, with latest balance patch the suddenly did MASSIVE boosts to some while hardly touching others and that pretty much tore apart that gap in class performance (and differences between best build of the class and alternative options to the point of causing Kitty, a big advocate of making lots of builds do competent dps, to quit until they fix it).And since necromancer didn't get any changes worth mentioning, the general difference between reaper and top build grew from 6-7k to almost 11k and thus even necro's best option for instanced content performs 26% worse than best option. In other words, power chrono doing 74% of bench does as much damage as perfect power reaper. And below that, we have pretty much every other class in 36500-37500 region which means reaper only does 80% of their damage. And ofc scourge is even in slightly worse spot.Though it's not just necro that got a disadvantage, though it has it worst.Condithief in all varieties got nuked on previous balance patch (there's only one extremely awkward build that still does semi-competent dps but as far as Kitty knows, only one player can pull it off) and is waiting for some fix to rise those builds back from limbo.Power rev got boosted...but remains 10-16% below better options (though has utilities to compensate).Power thief's non-rifle versions (rifle is extremely conditional) are 7-10% behind other classes and 15% below best while mostly providing very boss-specific utilities and as such, gets overshadowed by other options at bosses where you don't need those utilities.

And before anyone whines about "but reaper is tanky!", Kitty would like to remind that there's these things like power thief and power rev that get big heals from dealing damage while vastly outdpsing reaper and providing superior dps, FB with tons of blocks while doing metalevel dps and providing quickness and Tactics berserker that does similar DPS to reaper while providing tons of might (and every might stack it provides heals 68, imagine that with PS. It's ridiculous), EA, CC and banners for some dps cost.

And then there's scrapper. Already benched over 31112 before balance patch and is now around 33k while providing insane amounts of utility, having probably best cleave and most of all: in raid situation, if you have any clue on how to play it, literally no damage gets thru the barrier due to "gain barrier equal to 15% of outgoing damage with means 3500-4500 barrier per target per second during burns. As such, Kitty's scholar uptime has been around 99.9% even at bosses like Slothasor and then it has long channeled block and evade on skill to prevent big hits. And none of that costs any dps while reaper's dps drops like a rock if you take enough damage to drop shroud prematurely.

Kitty also did test some of her old good memes yesterday, like p/p DE (she came back to test her Zealot's power/heal hybrid that does about 7-8k dps in real situations while doing full heal scourge things, as random sidenote) and even with extreme greeding, she was behind metabuilds despite most likely overskilling them by good amount while previously she was always competing equally.

[Nephalem.8921]

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:And then there's scrapper. Already benched over 31112 before balance patch and is now around 33k while providing insane amounts of utility, having probably best cleave and most of all: in raid situation, if you have any clue on how to play it, literally no damage gets thru the barrier due to "gain barrier equal to 15% of outgoing damage with means 3500-4500 barrier per target per second during burns. As such, Kitty's scholar uptime has been around 99.9% even at bosses like Slothasor and then it has long channeled block and evade on skill to prevent big hits. And none of that costs any dps while reaper's dps drops like a rock if you take enough damage to drop shroud prematurely.

Only condi scrapper got benched higher which is a meme anyways since the build is not using any scrapper related traits or skills. barrier only works with power damage. scrapper bench needed an insane amount of grind to go above 30k.Scrapper also relies on stab, superspeed and swiftness. the block costs dps, the barrier costs dps since you could play holo instead. necro is just a bad dps profession by design since release. it only shined with exploits. wh5 needs its damage back, wells need to be on par with dh traps. 30sec cd and hits like a wet noodle. boon corrupt well has 40sec cd and does less damage than some auto attacks and why do you even need a trait to have signets in shroud.Also please dont use benchmark numbers to compare stuff. pchrono has 41k but needs perma slow and is also quite bad in short bursty phases thanks to the high cs cd. it also does way lower dmg vs targets with boons or adds around. Daredevil has 35k but can steal strong items which can increase that to surpass most other builds on some bosses.Reaper skills are in such a bad state that 300-500 dps minions are doing more than picking active skills.

[Nimon.7840]

While I think that 9-10k difference is exaggerated.It's still a 6-7k difference.

Reapers bench is currently at ~31k. But it needs a lot of grind or really good luck to get near that number. In reality it's maybe only 29,5-30k.While not bringing any support to the group.

And that's the real problem.Reaper is full dps spec with 0 support, that does less damage than other classes with insane support. For example firebrand with group quickness and warrior with squad-banners.

Often people argue, that reaper can pretty much give itself all buffs it needs. But that's actually not true.

If we would compare a group of reapers, and a group of firebrands (cause that's what people like to do, stacking classes)

Both are missing: alacrity

Reapers are missing: fury, regeneration, protection. And only have around 50% quickness uptime

While guards have perma quickness, fury and on top of that can completely mitigate dmg with aegis as well as ignore mechanics with aegis or stability + depending on boss they even get tome resets that boost their dps even higher

Yes I know this is kinda a dumb comparison.

[Emberheart.8426]

@Nimon.7840 said:While I think that 9-10k difference is exaggerated.It's still a 6-7k difference.

Reapers bench is currently at ~31k. But it needs a lot of grind or really good luck to get near that number. In reality it's maybe only 29,5-30k.While not bringing any support to the group.

And that's the real problem.Reaper is full dps spec with 0 support, that does less damage than other classes with insane support. For example firebrand with group quickness and warrior with squad-banners.

Often people argue, that reaper can pretty much give itself all buffs it needs. But that's actually not true.

If we would compare a group of reapers, and a group of firebrands (cause that's what people like to do, stacking classes)

Both are missing: alacrity

Reapers are missing: fury, regeneration, protection. And only have around 50% quickness uptime

While guards have perma quickness, fury and on top of that can completely mitigate dmg with aegis as well as ignore mechanics with aegis or stability + depending on boss they even get tome resets that boost their dps even higher

Yes I know this is kinda a dumb comparison.

There is a reason why guardian keeps coming up in this thread. It's because guardian has been OP for some time. It would be better to compare reaper with other specs instead of firebrand, while asking for firebrand nerfs in PvE. Warrior banners have also been insanely broken for the longest of times, especially since warrior utilities do not make up that much of a warrior's damage.

[lare.5129]

As for me we have 3x difference, 50 and 15 , and this is ok. Don't understand why all classes should do same damage.

[Josiah.2967]

I am optimistic that another balance patch is coming. I tried my best to raid as a Necro in a casual group this weekend. Even producing great numbers (for a necro) I was asked to switch toons for a few fights because the group needed that extra DPS to make the fights easier so they can down the bosses. I instantly did 9K more damage, while finding it easier to play...

The problem for me (and others like me) is that people know I have other professions, they know the DPS (with bonuses buffs my necro doesn't provide) since they use ARC DPS. In this case, being a nice guys works to my disadvantage. As a result, even in a casual run I switch characters to appease the group. I would love a meta shakeup!

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:The problem for me (and others like me) is that people know I have other professions, they know the DPS (with bonuses buffs my necro doesn't provide) since they use ARC DPS. In this case, being a nice guys works to my disadvantage. As a result, even in a casual run I switch characters to appease the group. I would love a meta shakeup!

Exactly ... choose better who you team with and this isn't a problem.

[Yoci.2481]

Classes should not be balanced around raids, raids should be designed around class balance.

[Zaret.1450]

@"Yoci.2481" said:Classes should not be balanced around raids, raids should be designed around class balance.

That could be said about pvp and wvw too you know?Raid and fractals are the pve high end and have the same rights as pvp and wvw , more now that balance is diferent for pve and pvp/wvw modes .( i mean it has same balance rights and that is more seen now )Aniway i can understand having classes meta and classrs not meta , but its true that the difference in dmg is too big , now theres someone that will come saing that golem doesnt matter and stuff , sorry man but golem matters , if you can make a huge dmg to the golem is because the class itself has that dmg and so when you go to a real boss you will only need to learn the boss to make a huge dmg.An example. Look at warrior , it has a dmg on full dps that if i remember correctly is around 40k on golem , now power revenants latest build goes around 30k on golem(more or less ) now you get 2 people go to vg one with warr and one with rev , if the warr is not used to raid its dmg might be around 13k and if the rev is used to its dmg might go around 20k , that is one person "new" and one 150li for example , now , if you have 2 people used to raid that know how to play and their classes then its when the classes matter most as the rev will get around 20k again and the warr probably will get around 25(im just saing numbers its not actualy correct ) so even if rev gives group buffs it loses bastly in dmg and people will complain( because we all know how this works).And also getting a fixed group is not as easy as it seems you know ?

[Obtena.7952]

@Yoci.2481 said:Classes should not be balanced around raids, raids should be designed around class balance.

Agreed and to be fair ... that is exactly what is happening in this game. There is a wide range of class balance, so raids have a really low threshold for success.

[Yoci.2481]

@zaswer.5246 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Classes should not be balanced around raids, raids should be designed around class balance.

That could be said about pvp and wvw too you know?

Yeah they should totally balance pvp bosses around existing class balance. =)

[Black Storm.6974]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Yoci.2481 said:Classes should not be balanced around raids, raids should be designed around class balance.

Agreed and to be fair ... that is exactly what is happening in this game. There is a wide range of class balance, so raids have a really low threshold for success.

I agree (this seems true to me, at least for PvE) and personally I hope ArenaNet will never change that.I think changing that would mainly be a stress for most people, and would ruin the uniqueness of many professions.

If player “toxicity” become “too common”, than maybe “teach” and “educate” players would be a good “solution”. I don’t consider “player toxicity” coming from a “balance problem”, in this game it mostly comes from ignorance.

Some balance could help, but I don’t think every profession should have the same dps potential.

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

@"Obtena.7952" said:No one is hiding behind anything. There are game design decisions that result in Anet not needing balanced DPS between classes. It's not a debate about who's wrong or right; it's simply a recognition that GW2 isn't designed like a typical MMO and that leads to the situation we have with classes. Anet gives players choice. WHATEVER criteria you want to use to filter those classes, there should be an option in those 9 classes to give you what you want. If you want DPS, you need to choose DPS.

You're right.If you want to be dps, choose guardian; DragonHunter is a strong dps class and maybe the easier power class in the game, you have all in one: Autosustain, autobuff, DPS Burst and DPS Sustain, CC, mobility, utilities, blocks, range and melee dps, you can "precast" ur skills for be even stronger, (anet removed that but is now avaible again by any reason)If you want go healing, choose guardian; HB is an easy class with strong buffs for a firebrigade comp with 2 healers.; stab, aegis, resistance, blocks, etc . And you can use it condi and power.If you want to be a Boon Sharer class, choose guardian; in a firebrigade with 1 healer, then Firebrand quickness is a great option: You have only 2 skills for share quickness, and your dps is acceptable for a boon sharer class (with a super easy rotation)If you want to go condi, choose guardian: Burning FB is the second easier condi class (Soulbeast is the easiest), you'll have big numbers with a joke rotation.

[Jheuloh.4109]

On the post above me:

I would say every class should have some kind of Healing, CC, DPS, and Tanking spec type just like how Guardian does basically everything provided you trait for it.

"Uhh, warrior healer?" - Some poster I just made up

Yeah, bannerslave to the max!

"Tank ranger?" - Another made up poster

This is probably the 1 thing ranger pets are consistently good at. Beastmastery even has that cool taunt GM trait.

On the OP:

Every profession certainly has their balance-ism's, though I also keep hearing and to a lesser extent witnessing that 2 players can have a literal orders of magnitude difference in their effective power level because of the way equipment, traits, runes, abilities, etc interact, along with how tuned in the players are to the fine-print of ability usage.

It seems almost futile to gauge profession differences when the aforementioned is at play. I wouldn't call it a waste of time but I can only imagine that stuff making ArenaNet's life harder rather than easier. Not fun either when abilities are the only thing that can really be seen in gameplay.

[ZolracAtrox.2908]

^That should be true if all classes were optimal/balanced in those things; the problem is GUARDIAN IS TOP OR 2ND PLACE IN ALL.