Raids are not balanced when there is a 9-10k Difference between professions.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Why are you focused on 38K when the top is now 40+ K? The spread is at an all time high. It is unhealthy for Raiding/Strike Missions.

Its one build at 40k DPS. A build that will not be able to reach this on most encounters because Focus 5 is stupid. On a class that will have really good damage in some phases and bad damage in other phases. I really dont understand why so many people in this thread look at benchmarks. Yeah, they are nice for comparisson but often dont even come close to what is good on actual bosses. The spread is not at an all time high. We have one class pulling 40k. And except for Necro every other class is at about 38k.

As to the argument that dark themed classes see more play, I had a good chuckle there. Nice try, but last I checked, and this is actually supported by gw2efficiency stats, the most favorite classes played once again are paladin types (guardian), warriors and rangers.

You just proved my point :) ... you know that gw2efficiency account owners are mostly veteran players, right? You also know that new (newbies) and casual players mostly don't do raids, right? Do I have to explain further, or can you see the 1+1=2 ?

I know that gw2eff suggests that the most played classes are not necro. I also know that this metric might have flaws, but it is by far the most reliable one which we have as to class popularity and distribution. Everything else is baseless speculation.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

because half the people arguing in favor of necromancer buffs in this thread don't actually raid or participate in challenging content and lack actual experience which damage modifiers are realistically possible.

Your accusations about other people on this forum are just rude, really ... i know quite a few of these people

do

raid, and if you raid yourself (not saying that you don't, I

don't

want to be rude), you KNOW it's easy to pull off higher DPS numbers with

ANY

other class than the Necro. I can't really imagine how you would

not

be able to. And I really mean this from the bottom of my heart, you must either be really bad at playing those other classes or very new at it (again, not an accusation, just a mere fact!)

2.5k LI/LD, compared to your close to 0. The thing I've learned in all that time: you can raid on any class in the 99% bracket of players, on nearly any damage build, and outperform nearly any 80th percentile player. Which is more than sufficient to clear EVERYTHING in this game, even CMs.

The only players affected by necro not being viable are the top 1%, IF they optimize. Get there first, then complain. Or just start at all, then make comments about a game mode you have no understanding of.

Also, how is stating a fact an accusation? Some posters in this thread have openly admitted to not participate in raids or challenging group content, yourself included. I was not accusing, I was stating a fact based on past information posted on these very forums by members.

Myself included? ...Assumptions on assumptions again! Those 90th to 99th percentiles, that's where I actually used to raid! But you got one thing right, I don't raid anymore (as of recently),

because

of the balance issues! I hate to see that one of my favourite games is putting almost no effort into balancing it's game compared to other games I play. Not just for the Necro, but generally! I.e.: it took them almost 8 years to finally trying to fix PvP (where I btw, complained about the Necro's performance as being to high). Imo it's just really insane. Balance wise, ANet is REALLY bad!

The 1 thing I know is:players enjoy to blame as many factors as possible for not raiding or better, for not being able to raid, besides themselves.

It's quite simple:If you want to raid, on any class, you are more than capable to raid on it and clear all content. The only exception would be support builds and boon support, which is not available to every class in the same manner.

By the time any player hits the 90th - 99th percentile performance, they will either have:

• started to multi class, especially as dps player
• gotten good enough with their "main" class to outperform most other players even if those are on meta classes
• gained enough experience at the game to be of value to any raid composition, unrelated to class

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:But more importantly if you really are on 2.5k LI, you KNOW I'm speaking the truth: it's literally impossible to get to those numbers Guardians, Engineers, Thieves, Eles, Warriors, Mesmers can get to with a Necro.

Sure, at the top end.

I can guarantee you that I will be top dps in most PUG groups or more casual raid groups I join, even as power Reaper. Once the vast majority of players get into a bracket where the benchmark difference is the only (or major) deciding factor for player performance, we can discuss again.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Just to answer this:because half the people arguing in favor of necromancer buffs in this thread don't actually raid or participate in challenging content and lack actual experience which damage modifiers are realistically possible.

I dont really care about whats getting buffed/nerfed. Ill have to play whatever is best anyway.However, if you are only pulling even with Daredevil on a Boss that potentially allows perma fear through boon corruption (Qadim) then this class is in a really sorry state.Tbf. that was before the signet nerf. Necro might actually be slightly better. But then again, you can just stack firebrands and start to ignore everything.

It doesnt even matter that you can outdps people in pugs with it. The fact that you can pull off a perfect rotation and still only be marginal higher than most people is just sad. This entire class is just sad. It just doesnt feel rewarding. There is not a single good reason to have this class just scratching by 30k DPS for years now. Its note more tanky if you want to pull of a decent rotation and the self stacking boons shouldnt matter. Other classes can do this as well.

[Cyninja.2954]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Just to answer this:

because half the people arguing in favor of necromancer buffs in this thread don't actually raid or participate in challenging content and lack actual experience which damage modifiers are realistically possible.

I dont really care about whats getting buffed/nerfed. Ill have to play whatever is best anyway.However, if you are only pulling even with Daredevil on a Boss that potentially allows perma fear through boon corruption (Qadim) then this class is in a really sorry state.Tbf. that was before the signet nerf. Necro might actually be slightly better. But then again, you can just stack firebrands and start to ignore everything.

It doesnt even matter that you can outdps people in pugs with it. The fact that you can pull off a perfect rotation and still only be marginal higher than most people is just sad. This entire class is just sad. It just doesnt feel rewarding.

No, it doesn't feel rewarding in pve as dps. It is in a good place overall though considering all game modes, better than most classes.

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:There is not a single good reason to have this class just scratching by 30k DPS for years now. Its note more tanky if you want to pull of a decent rotation and the self stacking boons shouldnt matter. Other classes can do this as well.

Well we will have to agree to disagree here. Necro is more tanky across all aspects of the game for less experienced players and thus a majority of the player base.

Could necro's performance be improved as dps? Sure.

Is that required for a majority of players to be able to play the class in raid/fractal content? No.

Will this likely required a redesign or change/reduction of the classes strengths? Very likely.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Watch the recent Teapot chat with an Anet dev. Balance is done across the board to all areas, not just the top tier. Sure, this can be put up to discussion if it should be done this way. As of right now, that's how classes get balanced. Thus necro has strengths which, while not that impactful in specific content like fractals and raids, are vastly beneficial in other content and/or across the board.

Well I tend to take what ANet's devs say with a grain of salt. They have their way with word and we, players, often believe that they said what we want them to say. (Which prove to not be the case in 99% of the cases). Now, PvE and WvW/sPvP balance are seemingly separated, why not address this "lack of impact" of the necromancer in PvE?

Ideally, each class should be able to participate and clear content. That is the case right now. Given 9 classes, it will be impossible to reach an equal distribution for each boss, for each game mode, for each player skill level.

Like I said, perception and performance are both important in any game mode. When only "top" builds are advertised, you can't expect customers to value/perceive as "good" builds with poor performance. The necromancer hit the ceiling in both power and condi far below other profession and in more than 50% of the case the level of skill required isn't inferior to other professions.

Necro is very strong in some areas. So strong that it recently was re-tuned and yet still remains meta in WvW and pvp. It has drawbacks in pve damage, it is an insane carry as pve heal.

Again, PvE balance and sPvP/WvW balance are now separated, these "drawbacks" shouldn't even be considered. If there is a lack of damage in PvE then there should be a balance tweak to address it.

You want to re-balance necro power damage? Sure, but as I keep telling people: you might not like the end result because changes never come with buffs only.

Yes and no, looking at it only from the "power" perspective is incorrect. The necromancer is also lacking in condition damage in PvE so, obviously it should also be addressed. As for whether I'd like the end result or not, well my philosophy is that nobody should be able to dish out it's A game dps at the same time as it shield it's health points. ANet shifted the necromancer toward this end under the pressure of the players that's all. Players misleaded by traits that strongly suggest that it should be the case. The problem being that strictly speaking such design is not balanced, nothing more nothing less.

[Nimon.7840]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Why are you focused on 38K when the top is now 40+ K? The spread is at an all time high. It is unhealthy for Raiding/Strike Missions.

Its one build at 40k DPS. A build that will not be able to reach this on most encounters because Focus 5 is stupid. On a class that will have really good damage in some phases and bad damage in other phases. I really dont understand why so many people in this thread look at benchmarks. Yeah, they are nice for comparisson but often dont even come close to what is good on actual bosses. The spread is not at an all time high. We have one class pulling 40k. And except for Necro every other class is at about 38k.

Just to answer this:

because half the people arguing in favor of necromancer buffs in this thread don't actually raid or participate in challenging content and lack actual experience which damage modifiers are realistically possible.

The discussion in this thread has been had many times over. Necro was far closer in power dps to other damage classes a few patches back (and it's ease of use still is) and immediately everyone was running only power reapers because of the innate tank the class has. Reaper was shortly after nerfed down again.

Yeah,... No. No one did this. No one did run power reaper in raids.

Most other high burst classes rely on multiple damage ability stacking effects for absolute top tier performance (guardians multi symbol rotations, ele precasts, Holo preheating, etc.). Necro just doesn't have as much access to such effects.

That's correct, and that's also the problem right now.

Just an FYI, most of the necro mains asking for necro buffs in this thread were either strangely absent when the outcry for necro balance in pvp and wvw was strong last patch. Or they didn't see any issue with their favorite class being op.

Well tbh. Necro, is still strong in wvw. Especially the scourge corrupts are insane in longer fights. But corrupt wise, spellbreaker can easily compete if played correctly, and revs or especially eles do still more damage. Depending on fight even dmg scrapper.I don't say that scourge doesn't need some more nerfs, but if it receives nerfs, it either needs to be buffed in other aspects, or the other classes need nerfs as well: guard still being op, as it's still the best stability giver, scrappers being op with their cleanses,...

Me personally, I've always enjoyed power Reaper. It's an absolutely viable spec in all pve game modes for 99.9% of all players. For anyone who is actually on the level of Lucky Noobs, Snow Crows or other absolute 0.1% high end pve guilds (basically not one of the necro mains here), yes it sucks that you can't play this ONE class all the time. Then again, players of that caliber will optimize and play the absolute best in slot class anyway, and you will never have 1 class be top tier for ever.

It's not about playing it all the time. It's about being able to play your class once in a while in endcontent pve. Make necro one patch top dps, next patch another class. But that's not happening. It's always the same classes being on top. And especially right now the same classes are extremely good or meta in the other two gamemodes as well. Whereas necro only excels in one -being wvw.

Also if necro gets strong anywhere people cry loud and it's most of the times nerfed beyond good and evil, while other classes only receive minor nerfs, when they are op af.

As to the argument that dark themed classes see more play, I had a good chuckle there. Nice try, but last I checked, and this is actually supported by gw2efficiency stats, the most favorite classes played once again are paladin types (guardian), warriors and rangers.

[Cyninja.2954]

Okay let me summarize my position, since it seems people misunderstand what I am trying to say:

1.) Should necro have a decent and competitive power and/or condi spec? Yes, I would never argue against as many classes as possible to have competitive builds for pve. Just how I think a lot more classes should have access to support builds.

2.) Is this the reason why necro sees no play in raids (or as some might state: necro can't raid as dps)? No. I've explained why I don't believe this to be the case for the vast majority of players.

3.) Will necro on damage builds be shunned by groups you shouldn't want to be part of in the first place as less experienced players? Yes. There is just 1 place necro will not perform well enough: in the absolute top tier. Any lower skill group which shuns the class (and not the player) is inexperienced or toxic.

If people want to make the argument that necro needs competitive damage builds, that is fine. But please take into account all skill tiers and use proper arguments and don't go on with this nonsense that the class does not bring enough performance. Power Reaper is perfectly fine for fractals and raids except for speed run groups. It's even a great class to compliment a regular group with additional boon remove to support the ren.

[Obtena.7952]

Still no one asking themselves why it's like this in the first place. An unfortunate comedy of errors from Anet? An unintended accident? Not likely. Continue your dance.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Why are people so toxic about minmaxing PvE damage lol.

Like, a reaper's damage alone isn't causing anyone to fail a raid.

Like over the course of ten players, if reaper deals 20% less damage than the top-end DPS, here's some head-math:10 players means a given player, assuming perfect balance and everyone playing DPS, does 10% of the overall damage.If we suggest two supports/non-DPS, it's 12.5%.

Assuming all 7 other DPS are the top-end, then the reaper will deal 20% less relatively-speaking. meaning we can knock off 20% evenly and the reaper does 10% flat.This is a 2.56% reduction in kill speed.

If the encounter some some reason takes 8 full minutes, or 480 seconds, the difference in time is... 480*.0256 = 12.3 seconds.

Your reaper is reducing your clear speed by a whopping 12 seconds at the 8 minute mark assuming the rest of the raid is playing theoretical max DPS for completion. That's still nearly 20% of the remaining time on a 10 minute raid.

Even in a party operating entirely of reapers, the net clear time is still only just over one minute slower.

One minute! You're asking to rework a healthily-designed, all-levels-of-play-friendly and fair class for an efficiency difference of a matter of lost seconds of time in an MMO of all things.

And of course, this time drops off the faster and better the group is! I see SC put out a video of a sub-two-minute clear today! A reaper instead of a thief or whatever selfish DPS class there adds literally 2 seconds to clear time! That's THREE DODGE ROLLS OF TIME.

How can anyone argue something so asinine?

This is why raids were and are bad for the game. The deviation in terms of performance day-to-day is basically non-existent and has no actual bearing on content completion, yet people are asking for class reworks because something maybe doesn't perform perfectly.

Like... it's PvE, where completing the content itself is supposed to be as fun as playing the class. To which most people who play reaper LOVE it. If you're getting your panties in a knot because someone caused you to spend 12 more seconds longer in a raid, you're not enjoying the game and should probably re-evaluate how you're spending your time.

[Sobx.1758]

^ true, OP is wrong at the very core of his claim, raids aren't balanced around top tier dps and you don't need anywhere near top tier dps to easly succeed in them. The difference in dps between the classes has nothing to with "raid balance" as long as all of the classes have viable builds to complete them. And as far as I know there's no problem with that.

[Josiah.2967]

@"Sobx.1758" said:^ true, OP is wrong at the very core of his claim, raids aren't balanced around top tier dps and you don't need anywhere near top tier dps to easly succeed in them. The difference in dps between the classes has nothing to with "raid balance" as long as all of the classes have viable builds to complete them. And as far as I know there's no problem with that.

Necromancers have a lot of fights that Guild Wars 2 Raids sites deem as Unsubstantial and Inefficient. The best Necro player fights to be "Mediocre" on a decent amount of fights. Even the best Necromancer DPS players are considered unsubstantial and inefficient in a wide variety of fights.

DPS matters for Raids, Strike Missions, and Fractals. Higher DPS allows you to ignore a lot of mechanics in GW2 which makes fights much easier. It does way more than make a fight faster. It also makes achievements easier to acquire.

With the current balance, you do not bring a DPS necromancer to a raid...you carry them.

There is also a misconceived notion that Necromancers have higher suitability, which makes you think they would be viable as a tank. Necromancers do not have a competitive tanking build.

When I am healing, shroud is problematic since you can not heal them in the shroud. The tried and true story...the Necromancer tries to use their life force to survive while low on health. We (the healer) can not heal them during this time, so we focus on keeping the rest of the group alive. As soon as they are out, they die to the faintest breeze. Meanwhile everyone else just makes themselves immune to damage/blocks and we can easily heal them back up. Let's not even begin to discus the sub-sub-par damage the players that uses the shroud to survive are doing. Those players are being hardcore carried. I have seen quite a few of these competing with the healer for DPS.

When I am healing, the last thing I want to see is a DPS Necromancer. They make my life unnecessarily difficult as a healer, they do subpar damage, and they do not provide the team boons. It is nothing against the player, it is just the reality of the situation.

[Nephalem.8921]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

And of course, this time drops off the faster and better the group is! I see SC put out a video of a sub-two-minute clear today! A reaper instead of a thief or whatever selfish DPS class there adds literally 2 seconds to clear time! That's THREE DODGE ROLLS OF TIME.

How can anyone argue something so asinine?

Thats not how that works. Certain phases are skipped, ignoring the stab pyre on qadim requires high dps or a spellbreaker. high dps on adina allows it to phase before it gets invuln saving more than 40sec just with meeting a dps check.If you add stuff like this up you can easily save 20min+ in a full clear. reaper will be way more than 20% behind on some bosses thanks to shroud. reaper works fine in fractals because fights are short and lifeforce is plenty, it only works on very few raidbosses thanks to the garbage shroud mechanic.The only selfish dps class in that sc vid were btw the warrs. the rest had team support worth way more. Condi weaver has a 39k bench and isnt meta on a boss either btw. firebrand stacking is just too strong.guardian and chrono are limiting the meta more than the dps gap. they could buff reaper by 30% and it could only be played on very few bosses thanks to shroud. would completely break fractals though.I hope if cantha comes with new especs necro gets a proper dps version without a shroud. it just doesnt work in harder content.

They could give wh5 some power dmg back and increase dmg and reduce cd on corruption well. this would probably be enough for now. the wh5 change really tlits me. it does 4k damage top fully buffed and heals for way less. what kind of joke skill is that?

[Axl.8924]

I got an answer: Why not nerf the top performers to around 32-35kish level and make necros/reapers/scourge damage break bar and maybe even give buff gen to bosses? maybe even conditions for scourge to corrupt? People complain about raids being too easy with DPS, and it shouldn't be just about DPS race, but about what classes bring to the table. 40k was thought to be too high, so why not bring it down to 33-35k range?

The balance is never going to be perfect, and I'm not claiming to know everything or outcome, but DPS race shouldn't be the only factor anyways.

[skarpak.8594]

necro, just as every other class, is fairly dependand on the encounter itself.
you see pchrono as top dps class in the bench and still soulbeast is the favorite class by now and why? because burst. in terms of power, if bosses phase fast you are not that far behind as necromancer when you simply use a burst rotation and then the boss is done for. necromancer burst may not be the very best out of all classes, but its still there. he has the option to do it. with this, you won't be very far behind on any encounter...except if you play with a highly experienced group which has a record level play style. which i doubt, so its not relevant for most players anyway. means: necro is on encounters not that far behind.

coming back to encounters: you just need to play it on one which favorites a certain kind of playstyle. for example:https://dps.report/QZbE-20200407-025358_falln

looks nice, right. epi still not dead, pepehands. btw this was a 100 % pug group and i am definitly not the very best necro player out there...i literally picked it up the first time since 5 months at least, so there is much room for improvement.with a little bit of dedication, you can still make work of epi even on raid bosses. just because its not a record breaking strat anymore, doesn't mean its bad in general.

[Agrippa.1693]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:Why are people so toxic about minmaxing PvE damage lol.

Like, a reaper's damage alone isn't causing anyone to fail a raid.

Like over the course of ten players, if reaper deals 20% less damage than the top-end DPS, here's some head-math:10 players means a given player, assuming perfect balance and everyone playing DPS, does 10% of the overall damage.If we suggest two supports/non-DPS, it's 12.5%.

Assuming all 7 other DPS are the top-end, then the reaper will deal 20% less relatively-speaking. meaning we can knock off 20% evenly and the reaper does 10% flat.This is a 2.56% reduction in kill speed.

If the encounter some some reason takes 8 full minutes, or 480 seconds, the difference in time is... 480*.0256 = 12.3 seconds.

Your reaper is reducing your clear speed by a whopping 12 seconds at the 8 minute mark assuming the rest of the raid is playing theoretical max DPS for completion. That's still nearly 20% of the remaining time on a 10 minute raid.

Even in a party operating entirely of reapers, the net clear time is still only just over one minute slower.

One minute! You're asking to rework a healthily-designed, all-levels-of-play-friendly and fair class for an efficiency difference of a matter of lost seconds of time in an MMO of all things.

And of course, this time drops off the faster and better the group is! I see SC put out a video of a sub-two-minute clear today! A reaper instead of a thief or whatever selfish DPS class there adds literally 2 seconds to clear time! That's THREE DODGE ROLLS OF TIME.

How can anyone argue something so asinine?

This is why raids were and are bad for the game. The deviation in terms of performance day-to-day is basically non-existent and has no actual bearing on content completion, yet people are asking for class reworks because something maybe doesn't perform perfectly.

Like... it's PvE, where completing the content itself is supposed to be as fun as playing the class. To which most people who play reaper LOVE it. If you're getting your panties in a knot because someone caused you to spend 12 more seconds longer in a raid, you're not enjoying the game and should probably re-evaluate how you're spending your time.

I love it how some people try to convince others by taking real valuable and significant values (like percentages) and turn them to insignificant absolute values (like seconds) in a terribly specific scenario.Let me do the same now, as an example:Let me substitute that 20% into a cut in your income: if you're working 10 minutes this might only contribute to mere cents (or even less) that you're losing out on ... Why would you get your "panties in a knot" on less than a few cents, really??? Even worse: in your team: if you're the only one getting that paycut, your team notices even LESS. Wow, what are you even worrying about, right?

You see what I or actually you did there? First of all, you are describing a situation from a team perspective, while we're talking about single class (DPS) performance; not team/squad (DPS) performance. But the real elephant in the room is obviously you taking a specific absolute number (8 minutes) of which literally NO-ONE will exactly bound him/herself to in their lifetime.

To get into somewhat more real potential time-loss scenarios (without getting tooooo complex): you have to multiply this number (8 minutes) with how many raids you do on your Necro, and well, let's just put Fractals in there as well, and while we're on it: Strikes, and maybe all other stuff where DPS is important, like dungeons, story instances, world bosses, etc. ... (oh wait, this game (or at least the PvE part of it) is one of the most heavily focused on DPS games, I've seen in a long time, so you might just type /age and you have your number right there :)). And when you then have some kind of estimated number of total time spent, you can divide this with your 8 minutes sample, and then multiply this with the time loss that you as a player contributed for, for you AND all other players (you conveniently left this out in your calculations, but that's ok, I'm here to remind you!), because they ALL could've done better. Because of your choice of class, you're taking away time from everyone, not just yourself. And then you have a more genuine depiction of the truth, instead of your: let's put this in a VERY specific vacuum scenario!

Btw, you know what really helps in complex calculation like these! Percentages. Without really having to do complex estimated potential time-loss calculations, you could just look at a relative values and have a straight away feeling with it.I.e.: at least 20% less DPS than other classes, because you've chosen the wrong class is quite significant! Simple! K.I.S.S. :)

[Josiah.2967]

@skarpak.8594 Your experience matches the benchmarks. Condi Scourage has one meta and one good encounter for raids.We can talk about Condi Scourage. It has even more inefficient fights than reaper, like they are trying to balance both specs overall... Reaper, while only mediocre, is more consistent. The worst part is that we have raid bosses where both Reaper and Condi Scourage are considered inefficient or Inefficient.

We can take Condi Scourage meta fight, which uses Epidemic, as an example. Even in that fight, there are still other specs/professions doing 6-10K more. It is just barely clutching on to top tier.

[skarpak.8594]

when you go purely by the sc meta, yes. with their newest record on matthias you also play without a healer there and still many people take 2 and do not know what a boonthief is. do you follow the pure dps meta strictly? do most raider do exactly that? do most raider even perform on the level that they can do this kind of damage?

from my experience, be it pugging or helping out in random guilds and even in my own groups which are more laidback: no, not at all. i played with a certain kind of people for a longer time which performed on this higher level. i can tell you, what you see in normal guildgroups even when they stricly follow the meta is lackluster against that kind of play.

is it nice that necro is so low right now or so to say: that other classes got quite the buff in the latest balance patch? ofc not. you could argue that many classes are now again way too high since anet seemed to push all classes against 30 to 33k dps (we had quite a few 44k- 50k outliners in the past, or so to say: staff ele back in the days) and now we powercreeped back again through balance patches in which necro was not that much included in pve. or at least it did not do much.

but in the end for the general audience it really does not matter much. you can put out your 20% less damage numbers all day long and in the end you have dragonhunter in your squad which are below your necro damage because they can't keep their rotation up for a few min. as i said before, practice your necro hard so you can beat the bench, keep up with your rotation and then join raids / strikes and destroy 99% of players because they are simply not even close to any kind of benchmark level. it already starts with druids not being able to push out their might consistently or breakbars getting rekt in half a second.

you could push all classes to the same consistent level of 40k dps and most people would still not be able to do anything with it and still sit on vg with 13k, which is right now the case with many btw. nothing changed in that regard.

i don't know you but from my experience either the people which can't perform are usually those which cry the most about other classes have more dps or their own groups have absolutly wrong expectations to themselfes while not being able to perform at the level that the meta even does something remotly good for them...and that is apart from that certain classes are simply better on some fights (mirage vs largos for example) because of the very nature of the fight.also there is another big thing. many fights favor a certain playstyle as we know...even when taking the meta classes to this fight, if you do not perform already on that level for that strategy which the teamcomp was made for you are probably better of switching away from said meta class.
as example: the newest matt record again from sc with warriors. how many group are able to hold matt stationary that such a high end tactic would work out for them and at which point its better to simply take a mirage...or even a condi necro simply because the group sucks hard and its not coordinated at all.

edit:

when raidbosses fall after 1 to 3 min in top groups and all others still make it in time with 3 to 5 min left on the enrage timer, then classes not being balanced hardly matters anyway. for your weekly raid clear swapping classes to always be on meta & people going afk makes you loose more time then anything else. the next balance patch will come for sure and before that people could simply fix their own expactations. who knows, maybe next time anet buffs the hp of all bosses by 10 mil and puts all down to 20k dps. good luck if that ever happens.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:^ true, OP is wrong at the very core of his claim, raids aren't balanced around top tier dps and you don't need anywhere near top tier dps to easly succeed in them. The difference in dps between the classes has nothing to with "raid balance" as long as all of the classes have viable builds to complete them. And as far as I know there's no problem with that.

Necromancers have a lot of fights that Guild Wars 2 Raids sites deem as Unsubstantial and Inefficient.

If that was even remotely relevant to how the game is designed, you would have a point to make an argument with that. The fact is that people do raids all the time with necros ... and those raids succeed. So what is the compelling argument that for Anet to change how the game works? Nothing stops people from using necro and nothing prevents a team with succeeding with necros in that team. If you want optimal peformance, you have it by making different choices.

[Josiah.2967]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:^ true, OP is wrong at the very core of his claim, raids aren't balanced around top tier dps and you don't need anywhere near top tier dps to easly succeed in them. The difference in dps between the classes has nothing to with "raid balance" as long as all of the classes have viable builds to complete them. And as far as I know there's no problem with that.

Necromancers have a lot of fights that Guild Wars 2 Raids sites deem as Unsubstantial and Inefficient.

If that was even remotely relevant to how the game is designed, you would have a point to make an argument with that. The fact is that people do raids all the time with necros ... and those raids succeed. So what is the compelling argument that for Anet to change how the game works? Nothing stops people from using necro and nothing prevents a team with succeeding with necros in that team. If you want optimal peformance, you have it by making different choices.

People get carried all the time.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:^ true, OP is wrong at the very core of his claim, raids aren't balanced around top tier dps and you don't need anywhere near top tier dps to easly succeed in them. The difference in dps between the classes has nothing to with "raid balance" as long as all of the classes have viable builds to complete them. And as far as I know there's no problem with that.

Necromancers have a lot of fights that Guild Wars 2 Raids sites deem as Unsubstantial and Inefficient.

If that was even remotely relevant to how the game is designed, you would have a point to make an argument with that. The fact is that people do raids all the time with necros ... and those raids succeed. So what is the compelling argument that for Anet to change how the game works? Nothing stops people from using necro and nothing prevents a team with succeeding with necros in that team. If you want optimal peformance, you have it by making different choices.

People get carried all the time.

OK ... and? If anything, to me that's a compelling reason for Anet to NOT change it. If we acknowledge people are going to get carried .. then low DPS for a class isn't a problem Anet needs to fix with balance ever. In fact, the content is designed to need a team, so EVERYONE in that team is being carried by EVERYONE ELSE in that team. Whether you have high or low DPS has zero to do with it. Again, this ALL related to how the game is designed. It is NOT some oversight by Anet.

[Josiah.2967]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:^ true, OP is wrong at the very core of his claim, raids aren't balanced around top tier dps and you don't need anywhere near top tier dps to easly succeed in them. The difference in dps between the classes has nothing to with "raid balance" as long as all of the classes have viable builds to complete them. And as far as I know there's no problem with that.

Necromancers have a lot of fights that Guild Wars 2 Raids sites deem as Unsubstantial and Inefficient.

If that was even remotely relevant to how the game is designed, you would have a point to make an argument with that. The fact is that people do raids all the time with necros ... and those raids succeed. So what is the compelling argument that for Anet to change how the game works? Nothing stops people from using necro and nothing prevents a team with succeeding with necros in that team. If you want optimal peformance, you have it by making different choices.

People get carried all the time.

OK ... and? If anything, to me that's a compelling reason for Anet to NOT change it.

The fact that other professions specs are so OP that they can easily carry a Necro on these fights is a reason for Anet to not change anything? I guess we will just agree to disagree.

Necro being so low and selfish just forces me to raid with Mesmer/Guardian. I can not bring a DPS Necro in good concussion even though it is the profession/theme I enjoy the most. Especially during our training raid, where we try to introduce new players and need to carry them while they learn to keep things enjoyable and moving forward. I will keep topping meters with my Mesmer/Guardian for serious raids. I have already adapted, but it should not be this way.

[Obtena.7952]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:^ true, OP is wrong at the very core of his claim, raids aren't balanced around top tier dps and you don't need anywhere near top tier dps to easly succeed in them. The difference in dps between the classes has nothing to with "raid balance" as long as all of the classes have viable builds to complete them. And as far as I know there's no problem with that.

Necromancers have a lot of fights that Guild Wars 2 Raids sites deem as Unsubstantial and Inefficient.

If that was even remotely relevant to how the game is designed, you would have a point to make an argument with that. The fact is that people do raids all the time with necros ... and those raids succeed. So what is the compelling argument that for Anet to change how the game works? Nothing stops people from using necro and nothing prevents a team with succeeding with necros in that team. If you want optimal peformance, you have it by making different choices.

People get carried all the time.

OK ... and? If anything, to me that's a compelling reason for Anet to NOT change it.

The fact that other professions specs are so OP that they can easily carry a Necro on these fights is a reason for Anet to not change anything? I guess we will just agree to disagree.

Necro being so low and selfish just forces me to raid with Mesmer/Guardian. I can not bring a DPS Necro in good concussion even though it is the profession/theme I enjoy the most. Especially during our training raid, where we try to introduce new players and need to carry them while they learn to keep things enjoyable and moving forward. I will keep topping meters with my Mesmer/Guardian for serious raids. I have already adapted, but it should not be this way.

That makes no sense. The second you are in game content that requires a team, EVERYONE in that team is supporting EVERYONE else in that team, regardless of what their DPS is. We will not agree to disagree. You are simply wrong. There is no 'it shouldn't be this way'. Your opinion of how it should be has zero relevance to how the game is designed or what can and does work in it for the entirety of it's existence.

I haven't got a problem with people minmaxing and optimizing, but that is based on players CHOICE to use whatever is optimal; this is not a 'forced decision' ... you made the decision to base your choice on DPS by your OWN FREE WILL. The choice for optimal is there for you if you want it, but it's not the ONLY choice that determines how people can be successful in this game ... so stop selling your opinion of how this game should work like that isn't true.

[Cyninja.2954]

@skarpak.8594 said:when you go purely by the sc meta, yes. with their newest record on matthias you also play without a healer there and still many people take 2 and do not know what a boonthief is. do you follow the pure dps meta strictly? do most raider do exactly that? do most raider even perform on the level that they can do this kind of damage?

from my experience, be it pugging or helping out in random guilds and even in my own groups which are more laidback: no, not at all. i played with a certain kind of people for a longer time which performed on this higher level. i can tell you, what you see in normal guildgroups even when they stricly follow the meta is lackluster against that kind of play.

is it nice that necro is so low right now or so to say: that other classes got quite the buff in the latest balance patch? ofc not. you could argue that many classes are now again way too high since anet seemed to push all classes against 30 to 33k dps (we had quite a few 44k- 50k outliners in the past, or so to say: staff ele back in the days) and now we powercreeped back again through balance patches in which necro was not that much included in pve. or at least it did not do much.

but in the end for the general audience it really does not matter much. you can put out your 20% less damage numbers all day long and in the end you have dragonhunter in your squad which are below your necro damage because they can't keep their rotation up for a few min. as i said before, practice your necro hard so you can beat the bench, keep up with your rotation and then join raids / strikes and destroy 99% of players because they are simply not even close to any kind of benchmark level. it already starts with druids not being able to push out their might consistently or breakbars getting rekt in half a second.

you could push all classes to the same consistent level of 40k dps and most people would still not be able to do anything with it and still sit on vg with 13k, which is right now the case with many btw. nothing changed in that regard.

i don't know you but from my experience either the people which can't perform are usually those which cry the most about other classes have more dps or their own groups have absolutly wrong expectations to themselfes while not being able to perform at the level that the meta even does something remotly good for them...and that is apart from that certain classes are simply better on some fights (mirage vs largos for example) because of the very nature of the fight.also there is another big thing. many fights favor a certain playstyle as we know...even when taking the meta classes to this fight, if you do not perform already on that level for that strategy which the teamcomp was made for you are probably better of switching away from said meta class.

as example: the newest matt record again from sc with warriors. how many group are able to hold matt stationary that such a high end tactic would work out for them and at which point its better to simply take a mirage...or even a condi necro simply because the group sucks hard and its not coordinated at all.

edit:

when raidbosses fall after 1 to 3 min in top groups and all others still make it in time with 3 to 5 min left on the enrage timer, then classes not being balanced hardly matters anyway. for your weekly raid clear swapping classes to always be on meta & people going afk makes you loose more time then anything else. the next balance patch will come for sure and before that people could simply fix their own expactations. who knows, maybe next time anet buffs the hp of all bosses by 10 mil and puts all down to 20k dps. good luck if that ever happens.

This right here.

I've marked the relevant passages for clarity.

As long as personal performance and effort into optimizing and becoming better at a classes damage output has the BIGGEST effect on a players performance in the sub 90th percentile bracket (and that is the case in this game). Classes not being balanced or absolutely equal in performance will only be relevant for the top players.

Every one else can keep complaining about their class not being viable and being supposedly gated from content, typical forum style warrior, and not play the content. Or actually start playing the content, experience what players who raid are telling them, and have no issues in this game with any class while not playing in the top 1%.

[Sobx.1758]

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@"Sobx.1758" said:^ true, OP is wrong at the very core of his claim, raids aren't balanced around top tier dps and you don't need anywhere near top tier dps to easly succeed in them. The difference in dps between the classes has nothing to with "raid balance" as long as all of the classes have viable builds to complete them. And as far as I know there's no problem with that.

Necromancers have a lot of fights that Guild Wars 2 Raids sites deem as Unsubstantial and Inefficient.

If that was even remotely relevant to how the game is designed, you would have a point to make an argument with that. The fact is that people do raids all the time with necros ... and those raids succeed. So what is the compelling argument that for Anet to change how the game works? Nothing stops people from using necro and nothing prevents a team with succeeding with necros in that team. If you want optimal peformance, you have it by making different choices.

People get carried all the time.

Your claim here seems to be basically that everyone deals optimal possible dmg for their build and whenever you bring necro, he's automatically getting carried. That's plain wrong. As was said before: you don't need anywhere near top available dps to succeed (or even skip some of the mechanics with it), so saying that raids are imbalanced because some builds have the possibility to outperform other builds' dmg is wrong. It's not a competitive mode.And if necro chooses to go into shroud "because he's low hp" instead of relying on a healer then it's his own choice/problem/fault.

[Josiah.2967]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:^ true, OP is wrong at the very core of his claim, raids aren't balanced around top tier dps and you don't need anywhere near top tier dps to easly succeed in them. The difference in dps between the classes has nothing to with "raid balance" as long as all of the classes have viable builds to complete them. And as far as I know there's no problem with that.

Necromancers have a lot of fights that Guild Wars 2 Raids sites deem as Unsubstantial and Inefficient.

If that was even remotely relevant to how the game is designed, you would have a point to make an argument with that. The fact is that people do raids all the time with necros ... and those raids succeed. So what is the compelling argument that for Anet to change how the game works? Nothing stops people from using necro and nothing prevents a team with succeeding with necros in that team. If you want optimal peformance, you have it by making different choices.

People get carried all the time.

Your claim here seems to be basically that everyone deals optimal possible dmg for their build and whenever you bring necro, he's automatically getting carried. That's plain wrong. As was said before: you don't need anywhere near top available dps to succeed (or even skip some of the mechanics with it), so saying that raids are imbalanced because some builds have the possibility to outperform other builds' dmg is wrong. It's not a competitive mode.And if necro chooses to go into shroud "because he's low hp" instead of relying on a healer then it's his own choice/problem/fault.

In fights like Twin Largos, Necros do not have a DPS option to do even mediocre DPS. I am starting to question if you have participated in all the raiding content.

Your shroud argument also has a problem. If a Necro is maximizing their DPS they are going to go in shroud regardless of what their health looks like. Those die for the same reason, or decide to intentionally lower their already lower DPS. I also stand by my statement that a moderately good player will do more DPS with the op specs than a Necromancer playing perfect is capable of. I see it all the time.

[Agrippa.1693]

@"skarpak.8594" said:but in the end for the general audience it really does not matter much. you can put out your 20% less damage numbers all day long and in the end you have dragonhunter in your squad which are below your necro damage because they can't keep their rotation up for a few min. as i said before, practice your necro hard so you can beat the bench, keep up with your rotation and then join raids / strikes and destroy 99% of players because they are simply not even close to any kind of benchmark level.Good tip, but you know how you can actually do that AND beat that bench as well (easily), by choosing any other different class! Your tip counts for all classes, not just Necro players. In fact it's actually the BEST tip for top DPS classes, cause you will not just destroy all these casuals and newbies, etc. You will beat absolutely everyone including real veterans who really struggle to get the best out of their class with a 20% margin even. Incredible right!!!Joking aside, I really tell new players to not choose the Necro as their main class, there's a lot of forum perception that will all tell you they're really good for a starting player, but in the end (read: endgame) they'll thank me for it!

you could push all classes to the same consistent level of 40k dps and most people would still not be able to do anything with it and still sit on vg with 13k, which is right now the case with many btw. nothing changed in that regard.Back when GW2Raidar was still a thing (and this was before the big patch), it showed something really interesting that there was indeed quite a big gap within each class' 99th (the top 1%) and 50th percentile (the more casual players). But here's the thing that you probably wouldn't guess: the distribution between classes was even bigger in the 50th percentile than in the 99th percentile. Where necro's were "only" 20 to 30% behind Guardians (etc.) on the higher veteran player levels. On the mediocre/more casual level the differences were even worse: around 40% to 50% even.Now the interesting question behind this, is where ANet should balance to? Should they balance to what a profession is realistically capable of performing on (read: the 99th percentile) or should they more focus on the casuals: 50th or even lower percentile or worse: not even raids itself.Hell, if I would run ANet, I would even try to figure out which classes the big spenders tend to choose/main, and would make sure they will not leave the game! Maybe make those classes a little bit better than others ... maybe???

I don't know, I really don't know how they balance this game, but those big differences (again, 20% to 50% difference is a LOT: think of a real-life pay-rise like that, and you know it's a lot) in such an important aspect of the game: DPS, ... Well, I find it strange, to say the least (I don't know any other game that consistently does that)