The love-hate relationship with SAB: Praise and Pain Points

[Kelvei.8042]

Okay! Let me first say that I LOVE Super Adventure Box. This is the festival with the greatest hold on my heart. I ground out all my tribulation weapons the first year they were available, have several more of both weapon sets (stowed away as Tribulation Coins) stowed away in the bank, and—despite always burning myself out by the end of the festival—continue to be hyped every. darn. year. it returns.

Here’s the problem…

As much as Super Adventure Box caters to my tastes, there are a relatively small list of somewhat persistent issues that contribute to my burnout by the end of the festival. I will try to articulate these issues below, provide potential solutions to solve them, and very much encourage feedback and discussion about what others think!

MINOR QUALMS

Let’s begin with the small stuff that feel more like splinters—painful, but not game-shattering in any way:

? HEALTH IS NOT REFILLED AFTER DYING TO A FALLWhile my Infinite Continue Coin doesn’t mind this much, it is frustrating to return to the spawn gate only to have your last heart immediately aced by a ninja. I imagine this issue also impacts players who do not have the advantage of an Infinite Coin, as it results in a frustrating death that couldn’t be avoided.

• Potential Solution: Whenever you die—whether to the environment or a baddie—it’d be nice to start back at the shrine at full health.

? HEALTH POTIONS ARE TOO EASY TO ACCIDENTALLY USE.To address this, I stopped buying them a few years ago because I kept accidentally hitting the key in Tribulation Mode. While my Infinite Continue Coin affords me that leniency, I imagine it’s not as easy on others who are still buying coins or relying on having those health potions.

• Potential Solution: Like the Bombs or Slingshot, it would be cool to have some sort of confirmation when drinking a health potion. I’m not sure a FULL SECOND STEP is the answer, but something to prevent them from being gulped down (since it does have a bauble cost) would be most appreciated.

MODERATE QUALMS

Now let’s touch on some of the things that are hard to miss and frustrating (at their best):

? TRAMPOLINES OFTEN CHOOSE TO NOT WORK.Both trampolines and bouncy mushrooms don’t like to play nice in an online environment at times. This is particularly noticeable in a few places:

• World 1-2: Even in the shortcut worm, tribulation can be punishing simply because you need to be using your momentum when hitting the infinite trampoline of its intestines.
• World 1-3: When you jump from mushroom to mushroom on the way up to the glitch, they will sometimes ignore your landing and throw you into the swamp below.
• World 2-2: Many of the jumps in Ninja World require you to be accelerating in the direction you want to be launched as you hit the trampoline. This often results in you running off the edge of the trampoline instead of you launching upward.In each of these instances, deaths can often be attributed to the trampolines failing to activate in a way that the player expects. In World 2-2, in particular, the jumps are so precise that it can be a major point of frustration to miss them.
• Potential Solution: This is a tough one since it likely has a bunch of networking elements. Perhaps the “hit-box” of the trampoline could be expanded? Perhaps they could adapt the functionality of jumping mushrooms so they auto-magically fling you to the next spot? Maybe the particularly difficult jumps could be simplified a tad so that we don’t have to maximize every jump.

MAJOR QUALMS

Okay...now to the big stuff. My (personal) biggest pain point with Super Adventure Box really comes down to Worlds 2-2 and 2-3. When it was first announced that World 2 would have levels “as big as all three World 1 levels combined,” I was one of the people who was really excited about that idea. At first it was great. Then…it was less so…

Now I am mostly going to focus on World 2-2 and 2-3 as the main pain points. (World 2-1 is actually pretty good and relatively on par with the World 1 levels in terms of length, difficulty, and pain points. There are some areas where the pace is slowed, but it doesn’t have the same momentum-killers as its World 2 counterparts.) So, without further ado, here are the aspects of World 2 that make it really hard to love:

? THERE ARE LOTS AND LOTS (AND LOTS) OF SMALL FRUSTRATIONS.There are a ton of splinters that can cause you pain as you run through the levels on both normal and Tribulation mode:

• World 2-2: Fish de-spawn from your hands and disappear if you’re in the air.
• World 2-2: The Assassin boss halfway through the level is WAY too tanky, and significantly slows the pacing of the level.
• World 2-2: Much of the level is spent being knocked down and recovering from being hit: mostly because every enemy has CC that stuns you for a few seconds as you recover. Whether you’re dodging ninja stars or samurai swords, the enemies are constantly testing your patience.
• World 2-2: The squid is a major flow-breaker. It would be okay if you only had to feed it twice. The third feed and the fact that the scale dips below the plane of the platform(s) makes it an unnecessary pain point that irks me every time.
• World 2-3: Like 2-2, enemies like the banana and polar bears are just there to slow you down—making their knock-backs and stuns more frustrating than their damage

? EVERY JUMP IS PRECISE.Whereas World 1 offers a lot of room (and even multiple routes) to make your way through the levels, EVERY jump in World 2-2 and 2-3 are extremely precise. This makes the levels—and Tribulation mode, in particular—extremely frustrating, since one missed jump can cost you a good deal of backtracking time from the last spawn point.

? THE LEVELS ARE TOO DAMN LONG.Above all else, that very thing that made the levels unique and exciting end up being their biggest pain point, especially as you begin to play through the levels for drops, glitch chests, or Tribulation coins. Neither zone allows much in the way of deviation from the intended path, and are so long that the rewards are not worth the time investment to run and complete. There is little room for mistakes and no halfway point to bail out if you don’t have an hour (or more) to complete the missions (in normal or Tribulation mode).

• For perspective: whereas the entirety of World 1 can be run in Tribulation Mode in about 30 minutes (once you’ve learned the levels, plus or minus variances in your puzzle performance), World 2, Zone 2 and 3 take about an hour each once you get the jumps down. The difference: the number of precise jumps you need to make and the sheer length of the levels.

  ⬇ ⬇ ⬇

Potential Solution(s)

This is obviously a bit tougher. There has already been some work to add some shortcuts to the levels, but I think more needs to be done to make them more accessible to the average (and potential) jump-masters. My suggestions:

• Split both 2-2 and 2-3 in half. Probably easier said than done, but there is enough content here to flesh out both ninja world and the mountaintop with multiple levels. By splitting each level in half, you'd be providing greater rewards for players running them regularly, and better stopping points for those who have a limited amount of time or patience to play. A good splitting point in World 2-2 would be after the block-puzzle temple, where you have to ring the first bell (I believe). A good splitting point in World 2-3 would probably be right before the Qbert section.
• Add a halfway chest with end-chest rewards. A second chance to roll for rewards would be an easier way to provide incentive to run through the more difficult worlds. It doesn't solve the problem of the levels being too long, but at least provides more incentive to put in the time to run through them.
• Add the Path of Fire checkpoint system. It was a good system! Let people leave a level at any time and return to their last checkpoint—at least until they complete the world. Paired with the addition of halfway chests, you pretty much tackle the time it takes to run the levels and the incentive to do so.

My main goal is to promote a consistent, enjoyable experience in both normal and Tribulation mode! Let me know what you think about these ideas, whether you have others, or if you have any questions; I am more than happy to discuss and see what we can do to make next year's festival even better! :)

Happy jumping!

[Kelvei.8042]

With all that said: THANK YOU ArenaNet for re-investing in Super Adventure Box! I am extremely excited to see how it continues to evolve, and hope that these notes can be taken into consideration so others can dive head-first into the best festival Guild Wars 2 has to offer!

[nosleepdemon.1368]

You mean 15 minutes per trib clear on w2z2 and getting rocked at least once by the trib cloud dart deathwall encounter midway isn't super, amazing fun? I'd be happy as a clam if the ninja stuff was just... Deleted. It was soooo annoying!

[Danikat.8537]

Welcome to the forums! I've often noticed several of the same issues, and in a weird way it's nice to know someone with a lot more experience with SAB has the same problems. I freely admit I'm not the best player (at this or GW2 in general) but it's even more frustrating when the game acting in an unexpected or unnecessarily complicated way makes things harder than they should be.

@Kelvei.8042 said:? HEALTH IS NOT REFILLED AFTER DYING TO A FALLWhile my Infinite Continue Coin doesn’t mind this much, it is frustrating to return to the spawn gate only to have your last heart immediately aced by a ninja. I imagine this issue also impacts players who do not have the advantage of an Infinite Coin, as it results in a frustrating death that couldn’t be avoided.

• Potential Solution: Whenever you die—whether to the environment or a baddie—it’d be nice to start back at the shrine at full health.

I was thinking about this one today, and specifically the fact that I've gotten into the habit of suiciding to anything that's nearby if I die from a fall with low health. Since I have the infinite continue coin I can do that with basically no downsides and it's often less hassle than trying to get my health back up. But it feels a bit like cheating and I'm pretty sure it's not an intended approach.

Also it just seems weird that death has different outcomes depending on what the cause is, surely dead should be dead and when you reset it shouldn't matter how you died.

@Kelvei.8042 said:? TRAMPOLINES OFTEN CHOOSE TO NOT WORK.Both trampolines and bouncy mushrooms don’t like to play nice in an online environment at times. This is particularly noticeable in a few places:

• World 1-2: Even in the shortcut worm, tribulation can be punishing simply because you need to be using your momentum when hitting the infinite trampoline of its intestines.
• World 1-3: When you jump from mushroom to mushroom on the way up to the glitch, they will sometimes ignore your landing and throw you into the swamp below.
• World 2-2: Many of the jumps in Ninja World require you to be accelerating in the direction you want to be launched as you hit the trampoline. This often results in you running off the edge of the trampoline instead of you launching upward.In each of these instances, deaths can often be attributed to the trampolines failing to activate in a way that the player expects. In World 2-2, in particular, the jumps are so precise that it can be a major point of frustration to miss them.
• Potential Solution: This is a tough one since it likely has a bunch of networking elements. Perhaps the “hit-box” of the trampoline could be expanded? Perhaps they could adapt the functionality of jumping mushrooms so they auto-magically fling you to the next spot? Maybe the particularly difficult jumps could be simplified a tad so that we don’t have to maximize every jump.

This was driving me mad earlier! I have to admit sometimes it's a relief during a long chain of bounce mushrooms to land on one and just stop, so I can take a second to refocus my eyes and look around (even though I'm pretty sure that's unintended) but it's really annoying when I'm jumping on them and it's not consistent. I've had less issues with the trampolines, but maybe just because the consenquences have been less severe (I haven't tried 2-2 on Tribulation mode yet). Earlier today I was going up the tower to the glitch in 1-3 and I just could not get it right. I did it yesterday, I've done it many times in the past but today it was just not happening and whilst some of that can probably be blamed on me I'm pretty sure the fact that I had noticable more inconsistent behaviour from the mushrooms than before was a factor.

I'm not sure what could be done to fix it, but it would be really nice if someone could take a look at it for next year.

@Kelvei.8042 said:

• World 2-2: The Assassin boss halfway through the level is WAY too tanky, and significantly slows the pacing of the level.

Agreed. I was talking about this with some friends on Discord earlier today. Once you know how to beat him there's not really any challenge to it, so it's just dull and repetative to fight him. I think it would be a vast improvement if his health was reduced so it only takes 2 or so 'rounds' of getting him to drop his guard and attacking to kill him.

@Kelvei.8042 said:

• World 2-2: The squid is a major flow-breaker. It would be okay if you only had to feed it twice. The third feed and the fact that the scale dips below the plane of the platform(s) makes it an unnecessary pain point that irks me every time.

Agreed 100%. Even just having it stop on the same level as the platform so you don't have to climb back up to where you started would be an improvement, but it would also be nice if you only had to feed it once or twice. Like the assassin boss there's no challenge once you know what to do, it's just repetative.

@Kelvei.8042 said:? THE LEVELS ARE TOO kitten LONG.

Agreed. Every year I tell myself I'm going to start off just running through all the levels, in their entirety without using shortcuts, before I worry about new achievements and I get through to 2-1 and then just...give up. I can do 2-2 and 2-3, I like doing them, even the long versions, but I'm one of those people with limited and unpredictable time to play and it's really discouraging to know that if I get 2/3 of the way through and then have to stop I'd have to start over from the begining. So I compromise by only doing those levels when I'm working on an achievement - I always try to finish whichever level I'm playing no matter the reason, but it's less discouraging if I have to stop before the end if I've at least done what I set out to do. But it would be really nice to be able to be able to take the long route when I feel like it without worrying that I'll have to stop before the end and then the whole thing will be a waste of time.

Given my main concern is that I want to play the whole level, rather than just wanting the rewards, I really like the idea of using PoF style checkpoints so I can do however much I have time for, then stop and carry on later, rather than missing whole sections by taking shortcuts like I do now.

[Qaju.2058]

I can feel your love for SAB so thanks for sharing your feedback. So it's with kind respect that I say the following. No I'll intent ^^

Potions also act like stunbreaks. Which can be invaluable in certain situations (go upstream in trib, recover from knockbacks Vs jumpy rocks). A prompt to using pots would void the options.

Your issue with jumping trampolines and mushroom pads are due to latency desynchronizations between your client and the server. GW2 is particularly affected lately with wild lag spikes. It's why you can't rely on your momentum. Why sometimes they launch you or ignore you or don't launch you with momentum. Also why jumpy rocks of tribulation are so annoying and knock you before you trigger them or even after you think you're clear of them.Type /IP I your map instance and run a tracing and you'll see the sad current state.I wasted more than 20min the other night and around 30 death's in w2z2 tribulation at the furniture coin NPC with the glitches on those 3 trampolines on the thin wooden pillars due to lag.

Your qalm about piranhas: basically they jump out of water to bite you and you knock hem out unconscious by hitting them so you can carry them to feed the octopus. But if you carry them too long (fixed duration) they regain consciousness so they slip out and fall to the ground where you can pick em up again. So what you can so is drop them preemptively to reset the duration. If you're in the air when it happens there's no ground under you for bundles to appear so they vanish. Which is beneficial when in Fractals of the mists with the Flux bomb instability that you can void by being in the air at the time it pops :)

Oh btw the boomerang upgrade is invaluable on those tanky enemies. You get to stunlock ? ? Assassins and also Storm Wizard boss. It stuns both ways so attack boomerang attack boomerang, rince repeat until dead.

[Luthan.5236]

I agree on the bouncing/jumping mushrooms in W1-Z3 when you need to go up the glitch. Took me ages today. Yesterday I was lucky and managed it faster.Levels too long: That goes mainly for W2-Z2 and W2-Z3 when you don't use shortcuts.

W2-Z2 in normal mode is pretty annoying there with the traps (gong pagoda). Most annoying zone. I imagine W2-Z2 and W2-Z3 are the most annoying in tribulation. Haven't tried them yet since 2013 (when I only did tribulation once for achievements with a guide).

Falling down somewhere does not count as dying in normal mode. Only reducing 1 health to save the player some lifes. I find it a bit annoying though if you have to go a long way again where mobs could hit you. (Where it might make sense to die instead and start back with full health.)

[Etria.3642]

Totally agree that the bouncy stuff doesn't work reliably whatsoever, and that w2z2 and z3 are waywaywaywaywaywaywaywaywaywaywaywaywa too long.

Me: Hey this is the year I am finally going to collect every single bauble in wing 2. halfway through w2z2 You know what, it'll still be here tomorrow, I got my dailies done, I'm out.

[Ayrilana.1396]

I agree about the bouncy mushrooms and trampolines but disagree about the rest being an actual issue more than a personal preference.

[Kelvei.8042]

@Danikat.8537 said:Also it just seems weird that death has different outcomes depending on what the cause is, surely dead should be dead and when you reset it shouldn't matter how you died.I very much agree with this point, which is why it stands out to me in the first place. I feel like the logic should be: whenever you die, your health is refilled. I don't think it is particularly exploitative for people with the Infinite Continue Coin (since it is essentially trading the respawn time for health), and is far more considerate of those not running with the coin—who can quickly lose two lives by missing a jump and then getting aced back at the respawn point.

@Danikat.8537 said:Earlier today I was going up the tower to the glitch in 1-3 and I just could not get it right. I did it yesterday, I've done it many times in the past but today it was just not happening and whilst some of that can probably be blamed on me I'm pretty sure the fact that I had noticable more inconsistent behaviour from the mushrooms than before was a factor.

I'm not sure what could be done to fix it, but it would be really nice if someone could take a look at it for next year.Agreed. I don't know what the answer is since it relies on several factors (networking, latency, possible programming, etc.), but the frustration is in their inconsistency and some of the movement they require of the player.

@Danikat.8537 said:Once you know how to beat him there's not really any challenge to it, so it's just dull and repetative to fight him. I think it would be a vast improvement if his health was reduced so it only takes 2 or so 'rounds' of getting him to drop his guard and attacking to kill him.Two sounds much more reasonable for the Assassin boss. I have not actually counted how many there are now, but it is quite a bit of rinse/repeat for a fight that is (right now) just a time sink. I would even take a redesign that spices up the fight a bit... Perhaps allow me to reflect the boxes back to do additional damage and speed things up by completing the fight the "right" way.

@Danikat.8537 said:Agreed. Every year I tell myself I'm going to start off just running through all the levels, in their entirety without using shortcuts, before I worry about new achievements and I get through to 2-1 and then just...give up. I can do 2-2 and 2-3, I like doing them, even the long versions, but I'm one of those people with limited and unpredictable time to play and it's really discouraging to know that if I get 2/3 of the way through and then have to stop I'd have to start over from the begining. So I compromise by only doing those levels when I'm working on an achievement - I always try to finish whichever level I'm playing no matter the reason, but it's less discouraging if I have to stop before the end if I've at least done what I set out to do. But it would be really nice to be able to be able to take the long route when I feel like it without worrying that I'll have to stop before the end and then the whole thing will be a waste of time.I definitely like the levels, but I'm also in a post-achievement world of running through them. Having completed the World 2 Tribulation Mode, I pretty much only run 2-1 (Normal and Tribulation Mode) for a chance at an ultra-rare blue or orange weapon chest. Even on Normal Mode, 2-2 and 2-3 are too large a time investment for their reward...which is a shame, because I appreciate the work that went in to them!

[Kelvei.8042]

@aleron.1438 said:I can feel your love for SAB so thanks for sharing your feedback. So it's with kind respect that I say the following. No I'll intent ^^Thank you for joining the conversation aleron!! It's always good to get some additional points of view on the discussion.Potions also act like stunbreaks. Which can be invaluable in certain situations (go upstream in trib, recover from knockbacks Vs jumpy rocks). A prompt to using pots would void the options.I had actually forgot this functionality (having not used them for years now...). I suppose I wouldn't mind the removal of the stun-break, though this is coming from someone who hates wasting a bunch of baubles by accidentally hitting the consume key. I'll have to think on this and see whether there is an optimal solution that maintains their functionality for everyone.

Your issue with jumping trampolines and mushroom pads are due to latency desynchronizations between your client and the server. GW2 is particularly affected lately with wild lag spikes. It's why you can't rely on your momentum.I understand this. Unfortunately, there are several bouncy platforms that require momentum to properly complete. See:

• 2-2 Ninja Pole Puzzle: Especially on Tribulation Mode, where you have to be launched in a certain direction to make the next jump.
• 1-3 Glitch Tower: Some of the cross-the-tower jumps require you to be moving in the direction as you hit the pad.

I imagine that—like all online games right now—the increased server traffic is having an impact on these platforms, though this ultimately highlights the fundamental issue that could use some rethinking!

Your qalm about piranhas: basically they jump out of water to bite you and you knock hem out unconscious by hitting them so you can carry them to feed the octopus. But if you carry them too long (fixed duration) they regain consciousness so they slip out and fall to the ground where you can pick em up again. So what you can so is drop them preemptively to reset the duration. If you're in the air when it happens there's no ground under you for bundles to appear so they vanish.Yeah. For the Super Adventure Cat, I very much remember manually dropping the piranhas to reset the timer, but it is reaaaaaly frustrating! Partciularly on the three story temple of the ninjas, it is A LOT of backtracking if the piranha just happens to disappear as you're moving to a new level. It's just another splinter that prevents me from returning to the world.

Oh btw the boomerang upgrade is invaluable on those tanky enemies. You get to stunlock ? ? Assassins and also Storm Wizard boss. It stuns both ways so attack boomerang attack boomerang, rince repeat until dead.I forgot about the boomerang upgrade entirely! I remember unlocking it but swapping back to the whip; I'll need to try it again. Thank you for the reminder!

[Kelvei.8042]

@Luthan.5236 said:W2-Z2 in normal mode is pretty annoying there with the traps (gong pagoda). Most annoying zone. I imagine W2-Z2 and W2-Z3 are the most annoying in tribulation. Haven't tried them yet since 2013 (when I only did tribulation once for achievements with a guide).They are....an endurance test. Pace yourself. Give yourself plenty of time to do them and don't be afraid to walk away and breathe for a minute or two if you hit a roadblock. You got this! ?

[Kelvei.8042]

@Etria.3642 said:Me: Hey this is the year I am finally going to collect every single bauble in wing 2. halfway through w2z2 You know what, it'll still be here tomorrow, I got my dailies done, I'm out.GOOD LUCK! I'm glad that I only had to do that once...

[Kelvei.8042]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:I agree about the bouncy mushrooms and trampolines but disagree about the rest being an actual issue more than a personal preference.Totally fair! I think there could be some minor adjustments to make for a better overall experience, but it is ultimately up to the Festivals team to decide what the 8-bit adventure offers! =)

[Friday.7864]

W2Z2 onward is a complete mess.Too long, too involved, too messy. It's simply not the least bit fun.Was eager to complete all achievements and unlock everything. SAB quickly became the worst festival I've encountered due to te reasons stated above. It's completely out of line compared to all the other seasonal events, requires way too much time and effort compared to those.

It's just way too... sadistic ._.Can't say I appreciate such content

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@Friday.7864 said:W2Z2 onward is a complete mess.Too long, too involved, too messy. It's simply not the least bit fun.Was eager to complete all achievements and unlock everything. SAB quickly became the worst festival I've encountered due to te reasons stated above. It's completely out of line compared to all the other seasonal events, requires way too much time and effort compared to those.

It's just way too... sadistic ._.Can't say I appreciate such content

Then don't do it :) tribulation mode isn't meant to be easy and those two final zones separate the truly good players from the TacO heroes who have just been phoning it in. W2Z2 is certainly long, and the jump poles will murder you until you figure out how to make them launch you forward at high speed, plus that trib cloud... Holy jeez. But that's what makes the mode appealing - losing 50 lives in 5 minutes over and over again until you nail a section and it never bothers you again. W2Z3 is by far the most epic zone by the way, some of those jumps are insane and the cloud jumping sections are hair raising. If anything, I want any future zones to be more difficult.

[hugo.4705]

Firstly, before you read, thanks for your detailed post. The color dots I will use are the one I think I would give to those issues.

? HEALTH IS NOT REFILLED AFTER DYING TO A FALL? HEALTH POTIONS ARE TOO EASY TO ACCIDENTALLY USE.-> Don't bother me at all. Seems normal. There was games who killed you directly when failing instead of simply removing 1 heart! (Crash bandicoot and so on) I find it kinda hard to misclick on health potions... but hey, I never used potions, and I finished all the achievs.

?TRAMPOLINES OFTEN CHOOSE TO NOT WORK.-> Agree there; but this is a major issue, not moderate. It's a pain, and it makes the mechanic infuriating, but yes happens with shrooms too.

? THERE ARE LOTS AND LOTS (AND LOTS) OF SMALL FRUSTRATIONS.-> Kinda agree, The only issue here for me is the fish coming out of your hand. It's annoying, and that's why I'm dying, stun by it and then I took the ninjas attacks in my face. And the trampoline of course. But it doesn't bother me to feed an octopus. There is a cat also requiring you to bring a pirahna to the top of the gong temple, how am I supposed to do so if the fish go away each 10 secs? But see you emphasize with lots and lots of frustrations whereas it's just 1 zone! I give orange,because preferred the fish before, without timer.

? EVERY JUMP IS PRECISE.-> Well only W2-2 trib, it's a pain: I don't dodge jump, and the first required jump to detour the first hill is better with dodge jump, the whole zone kinda require dodge jumps. But I return to Trampolines, It's because of those that I fail, not because of jumping. What is annoying is where you are at the middle of 6 jumping rocks spamming jump you can't evade and so you are stuck here forever.

? THE LEVELS ARE TOO kitten LONG.-> Here I disagree. The only long level is W2-2 trib tbh, is it bad that one level difficulty require you 15 mins? In normal, just use shortcut eagle. But seriously, even without, because you aren't forced to take the whole path and can pass through the clouds it's okay. I definitely don't want them to split w2-2 and w2-3 into two sub-zones. It would be a stupid decisios, and I know I wouldn't support SAB anymore if they do so. I experienced those levels even in tribulations for 7 years now, don't see why newcomers would not undergo my pain as well it's unfair, everyone should experience the same zone. Tribulation long road isn't and shouldn't be for everyone.

It's because of complain that w3-4 were put into stasis, I'm very sad for Josh Foreman, because during its stream, you see he put all its heart and peoples are ungrateful. I currently have a lot of fun playing it, and I definitely don't want to see the Box turned into a thing I wouldn't recognize anymore. And frankly, tribulation, it is meant to be hard and infuriating. What I saw is ton of players taking it as first degree, burning out and then ranting about it. You don't understand trib. All the fails I do, all the time I'm dying, all the ferocity accumulated lead to a greater satisfaction once you finish the zone. When I finish a W2-2 trib run I felt accomplished, being an hero in my life. I definitely think like Josh Foreman that more is better. But well it isn't what the majority of players expect here and it's sad that again, a post ranting about it and wanting to nerf/make the thing easier have support and "helpful". I'm no saying it's perfect. But let the zone length and organization what they are.

I will add what I really find an issue with w2-2:? "All-bauble collecting SHOULDN'T require a specific mode or BACKTRACKING"-> It's a design issue, but either put all the baubles on easy path from the temple with glove puzzle, or only baubles on hard path from there. If you aren't playing in Infantile you are doomed, it's the case with the chest in the first temple tower, requiring to go back from the shop way far after.

---

TLDR: Sorry, but I don't want any of those three solutions to be implemented. I know there is issues, and it's simply by fixing firstly those trampolines:Code them as HoT mushrooms, you are animated on them, and it send you directly on the pagoda where you should land (kinda like jump flowers).For the feels of achievement, it is better to keep only 1 chest at the end, also josh explained why checkpoints are like those and I like the current checkpoints. You either do the zone in one run, or you don't do it. Sorry, have you already seen super mario world? You stop playing, you restart from the start, simple.W2-2 don't have to be split into 2 zones, the issue of w2-2 is not really the length, but the redundancy, when you already did an octopus or a temple or jumping on pagodas, you know the thing, you do it a second time... But you are never forced to go hard path apart trib, and the nunchaku for me is to reward you of taking that path.

Tribulations or levels in general don't have to be nerfed because not everyone can do them. It isn't a shame to complete a level in normal and easy. You still want to do trib? Do it only one time, why wanting to suffer if you don't like to? Just do w2-1, w2-2 and w2-3 only one time. Or don't bother.

As said above: "W2Z2 is certainly long, and the jump poles will murder you until you figure out how to make them launch you forward at high speed, plus that trib cloud... Holy jeez. But that's what makes the mode appealing - losing 50 lives in 5 minutes over and over again until you nail a section and it never bothers you again. W2Z3 is by far the most epic zone by the way, some of those jumps are insane and the cloud jumping sections are hair raising. If anything, I want any future zones to be more difficult."

I want the next zones to be more difficult too. Anet again, should simply stop listening too much. (Me included) Because forums doesn't represent the thought of the whole playerbase, it isn't the case for Twitter too. SAB could have been finished right now. So just, stop it, don't make them put SAB in stasis 6 more years AGAIN.

See I did first-time runs with several guildies with different personalities, we did an infantile run in w2, many said "those clouds are OP it's stupid". Then we did a normal run, so more reactions like "Definitely more fun without clouds, what are the hard paths?", then we went Tribulation. And see, some simply left because they can't support it to go further. Some stayed and left when entering next zones and some stayed until the end, feeling accomplished and happy.

Post is called "The love-hate relationship with SAB: Praise and Pain Points" what I read is only rant, the pain points, I don't see anything positive.I will not make a joke about pain, using the zone name "Pain cliffs".

Does nobody have fun? Enjoy normal and infantile, why seeking for pain? To find something bad to say?I agree with some points, but everyone would have different dots colors Imho.

[Friday.7864]

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@Friday.7864 said:W2Z2 onward is a complete mess.Too long, too involved, too messy. It's simply not the least bit fun.Was eager to complete all achievements and unlock everything. SAB quickly became the worst festival I've encountered due to te reasons stated above. It's completely out of line compared to all the other seasonal events, requires way too much time and effort compared to those.

It's just way too... sadistic ._.Can't say I appreciate such content

Then don't do it :) tribulation mode isn't meant to be easy and those two final zones separate the truly good players from the TacO heroes who have just been phoning it in. W2Z2 is certainly long, and the jump poles will murder you until you figure out how to make them launch you forward at high speed, plus that trib cloud... Holy jeez. But that's what makes the mode appealing - losing 50 lives in 5 minutes over and over again until you nail a section and it never bothers you again. W2Z3 is by far the most epic zone by the way, some of those jumps are insane and the cloud jumping sections are hair raising. If anything, I want any future zones to be

more difficult

.

Yeah I don't mind if they make it super duper extremely difficult to the point where you want to throw your computer out. Nor do I judge people who are masochists or have all the free time they want in the world to complete all the SAB content. Tribulation is in all honesty kinda fun unless you have to spam it.For all I care give people titles for their time & suffering, ascended items, infusions, whatever - just DON'T PUT ACHIEVEMENT POINTS BEHIND EXTREMELY LONG, SADISTIC CONTENT THAT, ON TOP OF EVERYTHING ELSE - IS TIMEGATED > that's my pointIf I had all year to do this I wouldn't have much to complain about.

All the other festivals are great:

• there's some daily stuff to do
• achievements are doable and don't require you to make them your full time job
• it's casual, there's no rush and no pressure
• there's always something you can optionally farm if you feel like it and sink more time into it

SAB on the other hand is the complete opposite with additional issues:

• Collecting all the baubles on some levels can easily take several hours in one continuous sitting, you can't track your progress, you have to backtrack, if you dc you're done for
• The weapon collections with 20AP each are a mess! Requires WAY too much time and effort for a festival achievement that's doable once a year for a few weeks. Skins and achievement should be unlockable by doing Normal mode. Lock the infusion behind some additional tribulation mode content.
• It's buggy, mushrooms and trampolines are like Schrödinger's cat, you don't know if they'll work or not! As if it's not enough that we have to rely on some cheat like jumps to get to some places.
• The last 2 zones are way too long & they plan to add even more worlds! I repeat, this is a seasonal event, not everyone can sink enough time into SAB to complete all the normal stuff plus everything on tribulation mode.

So the problem is that I want to do it but they made getting all the achievements a repetitive & time consuming hell.

[Taygus.4571]

I love world 1 and I like w2z1, but w2z2+z3 are rediculously long without the shortcut. And they're just not fun. Not to mention my internet can be extremely laggy, Of it lags too long gw2, disconnects and I lose all that progress. It's not fun at all.If they do make a world 3, I hope it goes back to world 1 standards/time. Trib mode is there for difficulty.

I also hate the fish despawning. I get it, its an added difficulty..bit its mostly annoying. Same with feeding the octopus. Like..why can't we just feed the octopus one fish?. Its not challenging its just annoying/slow.

And fighting that glove assassin solo..eugh. Its soooo slow. After 2 uses of the push against his boxes, I get the mechanic, do I really need to only get in one hit each time. Was that really necessary.And you have to fight him unless you take the eagle shortcut. Can't they just remove that door behind the block?.. then you only need to fight him if you need the glove.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

Are SAB upgrades still per-character? Because that was always really dumb and needs to be fixed if it hasn't already been.

[Luthan.5236]

I think it is per char for people that want to have the fun of making a new char and unlocking all stuff again. (Some people find that fun.)Then again with the rewards (a lot is daily per account and not per char I think?) people that don't want to do that won't miss out on rewards if they play only 1 char.

[Coelho Nat.4697]

I do agree that some instances are too long.Some achievements take more than 2 h which makes them boring after the 1st half.Btw, I don´t even bother to do the tribulation achievements.

[Cerioth.7062]

I love SAB content, dont change it! Obviously bug fixes are always welcome.

[hugo.4705]

What to understand?-Taking the underground path in w2-1 doesn't make the zone faster than simply crossing river. Same with the passage in the waterfall if you take the bottom spin flower.-Using shortcut eagle diminish the time spent in ninja zone, 2 minutes faster.-The Boss of W2 is way far longer than W1 since it has phases, 2/3 of the time, the boss is invulnerable. King toad, you can shoot a jewel each ~15 secs.-If you take in account using the eagle and the mean duration of the three zones within a world, W2 zones are 1.5x longer than W1 ones. But if You consider the case where Storm wizard would be as long as king toad (45 sec) then W1 and W2 zones duration would be almost the same.-A normal run so, would take you 34 min 30, without using worm/eagle. And passing through the clouds in W2-2 instead of the big detour.-Tribulation in general simply double the time spent in the zone. For W2-2 I lost 4 mins at final pagodas due to trampolines. So the detour added 11 mins to the expected time. (14 mins) for w2-3, the hard path detour is 9 mins long. When reaching the top with the choice of paths, it's basically like you are restarting from start if you take hard path. Tribulation full run is 3x longer than a normal run: 1h 31m 20sec World 2 is 2/3 of that total time.

-> The time/length difference between w1 and 2 is more felt in tribulation, because it forces you to take detours. In W1 tribulation, you are kinda following the same path that's why my times are very close and only double of normal. Is it possible to diminish your time spent in W2 normal. W2-3 isn't long, and have the length of w1-1. It's just that the storm wizard is as long as the zone... W2-1 is double of a normal zone, but you have to keep in mind I lost 2min 30 at river and end waterfall in order to wait for logs. Now w2-2, well, If you want to have a time closer to a normal zone, use eagle once you have glove. (You don't have to do the 7 min run, go infantile, go to glove master, kill it, leave to hub, go normal and use eagle.)

If you do the collections King Toad and Storm Wizard, it will took respectively ~6.4h and ~17h.

[Taygus.4571]

@hugo.4705

But acheives in w2 z2 and z3, force you take the detour (which actually was the originally path they added shortcuts.. the clouds/teleporter, later).

For example if you want to get the glitch in every zone. World 2 will take longer than w1, for many people this isn't fun.Failing a jump also feels more punishing in world 2.

[hugo.4705]

@Taygus.4571 said:@"hugo.4705"

But acheives in w2 z2 and z3, force you take the detour (which actually was the originally path they added shortcuts.. the clouds/teleporter, later).

For example if you want to get the glitch in every zone. World 2 will take longer than w1, for many people this isn't fun.Failing a jump also feels more punishing in world 2.

Oh oki that's what I started wondering, so all the happy face path of w2 have been added after? Ok.

Depend in which mode you do the glitches, I dropped a majority of glitch weapons in normal. You lose I think 3 mins to access it in w2-1. W2-2, go shortcut eagle, after landing suicide, you respawn before portal platforms. Take left then forward. You are at the glitch, but yeah now you have the trampolines and pillar path, and here you lose surely 4 min. And well for w2-3 well, it takes you the same time as trib run sadly.

Until there is proof that glitch weapons drop are affected by difficulty, do your runs in infantile.

And yes I totally agree w2 is unforgiving about jump, it is a big jump in difficulty, but it's because imho hitboxs stink (trampolines, leaves in w2-2, edges of hills..)

---

Here's my real thought about w2:

W2-1: The part after the raft is useless and bring nothing to the zone. I can only see it as "we need it to put the remaining shops and hidden areas we had", the level could stop after the raft crashed. Instead of the jumping flower at the middle of the pit, you put the platform with the end zone cage. Players already experienced exploring the rivers on cocos and turtles, why three times? No split of the zone, just a delete. The zone always been two in fact, there is two soundtracks; rapids for first part and hillbilly hoeldown for the second after crashing raft. I only like the first theme tbh.

W2-2: The gong temple is useless, no point when you can climb the huge hill next to it and directly jump on the next checkpoint. You also experience pillars jump to access it, why a second time? Octopus same, but the worst is the purple spike ball ninja, why putting 3 in a row? In order, the zone could have been: hills, simple octopus, eagle, glove master temple, block puzzle temple directly, passage through cloud, end of zone. With the hard path of block puzzle leading to raccoon.

W2-3: No hard path, only the easy one, seriously again, why bothering with several icy slopes, icy bridges and several rams? Same as w2-2 it accumulate a thing and make it harder every time. But the greatest issue here is the boss, should be closer to king toad, fast phases, killable in 45 sec if we want not 10 mins. It's so slow... Is it necessary to spawn two wave of lightning ball? And losing ton of time before the boss decide to destroy a platform or spit its thunderbolt? Waiting that much of time, should be killable in one stun. Don't even know how to dodge those light ball it vaccums my health at the lightspeed, seems invincible.

But hey, I like the current zones, but I feel there are things out of place like that second part of w2-1.