Elite Specialization "Trade-offs"

[Mobian.8256]

I've really wanted to discuss this concept for a long time. I honestly think it's one of the worst ideas that anet has posed, and it's not something that's consistent within all elite specializations, either. Like, there are some specs that just have absolutely no trade-offs to playing them, and others have extremely detrimental ones.(And when I say trade-offs I mean the more detrimental ones, scourge losing shroud isn't really so much a trade-off as it is a mechanic to the elite specialization.)

For example, "Trade-off" they gave chronomancer. Removing disotrtion and IP literally just destroyed the class in everything outside of raids, and really ruined the flow to the elite specialization as a whole.

I personally don't think that elite specializations need trade-offs, because there shouldn't be a reason for you to want to have to go back to a base class, they should be upgrades to a class that bring in more, and make it more engaging.

Elite specializations remind me a lot of jobs in Final Fantasy XIV, where you're given tons of new abilities that really enhance your class as a whole, and you'd never really want to go back to your base class because it's just not an optimal thing to do at that point. You play a bard, not an archer. You play chronomancer, not mesmer. Even if you share similar things, it's still a different thing in my mind all together.

I dunno, that's just my thoughts on the matter.

[zealex.9410]

Its purely subjective, alot of ppl felt meh about elite specs being a flat out upgrade over the base classes and felt that they should be sidegrades.

Now to what extend they have nailed the trade offs, its a mixed bag imo. Mirage having one dodge is fine, and chrono not having distort is also fine, but losing ip felt too much.

[kharmin.7683]

There are many threads about this topic throughout the different profession sub-forums.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Mobian.8256 said:I personally don't think that elite specializations need trade-offs, because there shouldn't be a reason for you to want to have to go back to a base class, they should be upgrades to a class that bring in more, and make it more engaging.Well, that's the point - they are not supposed to be upgrades. They are supposed to be sidegrades, offering an alternative playing style and some options/roles the core doesn't have, but they are not supposed to replace the core job.

That's the theory anyway. The problem here is that they actually managed to do that right only for a single espec - Druid. Druid healer is indeed something that offers an unique playstyle and new options, but is not really any better at the core Ranger specialties. In all other cases however, especs, even if designed to just offer more options, at the same time either do something the core class was already capable of (but do it way better), revolve around the base class primary competency (and, again, do it better), or just are a flat out upgrade to the core at everything that class was capable of doing.

It's just that the approach Anet took to tradeoffs is inherently flawed. The tradeoffs they try to offer are about class mechanics - but change nothing about what i said above.

Case in point: Ranger. The tradeoffs Anet decided to use here revolve around pets. So, for druid, pets get weakened - which doesn;t matter, really. The tradeoff for that elite spec does exist, and is good enough already. Druid was not a dps spec - it was support/healer spec. It's no accident that the dps ranger version was core condi build. The specialties of both core and druid were different, and they had very different playstyles, that didn;t have a lof of overlap, and those overlaps didn't cover either specs main purpose. Both cases were already sufficiently distinct.

Now consider soulbeast - here the tradeoff is that they don't get to swap pets in fight. Which (again) changes nothing. Soulbeast is still an upgrade at everything core Ranger was, except for one thing - being a pet class. Too bad, that pet was always a weakest element of the Ranger class - an anchor that kept dragging it down. Partly by design, as devs were always afraid of updating pets to the point where they would no longer be that weakness (it seems, that at this points pets would have been way too op to be allowed in the hands of better players :P). So, basically, Soulbeast gets to be a straight-up Ranger upgrade. And the tradeoff for that is not having to worry about the weakness of the core class.

Basically, Anet decided to concentrate with tradeoffs on something very visible, but completely superficial. What they instead should have done is to decide the specialty for core first, and make sure that not only at that specialty core will always be the best, but also that specialty will be something actually useful and important enough for the players to keep using core for that. Just changing the general feel and playstyle is not enough. It just makes the players that preferred the old playstyle have to make a hard choice of either accepting being crippled, or having to change to a playstyle they did not like.

Apart from Druid, they don't seem to have done that for any class and espec. And that, by the way, suggest, that them doing it right with Druid was mainly accidental.

[Taril.8619]

@"Mobian.8256" said:I personally don't think that elite specializations need trade-offs, because there shouldn't be a reason for you to want to have to go back to a base class, they should be upgrades to a class that bring in more, and make it more engaging.

I disagree.

I feel it's boring design to have Elite Specializations be powercreep over Core builds, since it severely reduces potential build diversity, since your only "Choice" is between 2 Core specializations because the 3rd is always going to be whatever is the most broken Elite spec.

Having an actual choice of 3 specializations from Core or 2 from Core and an Elite is more interesting as there's more focus on what you want your character to be able to do as well as synergy between specializations and more emphasis on Elites doing a specific thing (I.e. Their change to class mechanics)

Not to mention how it makes it feel like crap to level a class, because throughout all of 1-80 you're playing with the Core stuff and with Elites being so OP, it means your Class doesn't really start until you've hit level 80 (Then ran around PoF/HoT collecting HP's...) - Which is literally the antithesis of one of the aspects that drew me to GW2 in the first place, which was that the journey was fulfilling and it wasn't just another "Get to max level NAO!" MMO.

@"Mobian.8256" said:Elite specializations remind me a lot of jobs in Final Fantasy XIV, where you're given tons of new abilities that really enhance your class as a whole, and you'd never really want to go back to your base class because it's just not an optimal thing to do at that point. You play a bard, not an archer. You play chronomancer, not mesmer. Even if you share similar things, it's still a different thing in my mind all together.

Classes becoming Jobs in XIV are one of the games big failures. Which is probably why they were abandoned almost immediately after the 2.0 release (With all future Jobs being released stand alone without a class requirement)

Since they screw over players who wanted to play Archer, not Bard. Rogue, not Ninja. Gladiator, not Paladin. Conjurer, not White Mage. Etc.

Which means that their later updates to the Jobs was more difficult, because they were trying to please both Archer players and Bard players (I.e. Players who just wanted to shoot people with a Bow and players who wanted to support using Songs to buff allies) which is hard to do because you're trying to cater to 2 completely different class archetypes (The end result is "Bard" in XIV plays like an Archer who has Aura buffs that only have an appreciable effect on allies if you're analysing parses...)

Meanwhile, for GW2, if E-Specs were sidegrades, someone who wanted to play Mesmer, could play Mesmer, while someone who wanted to play Chronomancer could play Chronomancer. As opposed to someone who wants to play Mesmer having to play Chronomancer/Mirage because that E-Spec is just objectively more powerful.

In addition, having Core builds still be relevant, means there's more reason for ANet to bother actually implementing additional things to Core classes, such as additional weapon sets (Or buffing the current bad ones) or utility/Elite skills which would also improve options for E-Specs too. Rather than only adding things to classes via E-Specs which are only usable with that E-Spec and so becomes obsolete when they add in a new, stronger E-Spec that everyone will use.

[Mobian.8256]

@"Taril.8619" said:I disagree.

I feel it's boring design to have Elite Specializations be powercreep over Core builds, since it severely reduces potential build diversity, since your only "Choice" is between 2 Core specializations because the 3rd is always going to be whatever is the most broken Elite spec.

Having an actual choice of 3 specializations from Core or 2 from Core and an Elite is more interesting as there's more focus on what you want your character to be able to do as well as synergy between specializations and more emphasis on Elites doing a specific thing (I.e. Their change to class mechanics)

Not to mention how it makes it feel like kitten to level a class, because throughout all of 1-80 you're playing with the Core stuff and with Elites being so OP, it means your Class doesn't really start until you've hit level 80 (Then ran around PoF/HoT collecting HP's...) - Which is literally the antithesis of one of the aspects that drew me to GW2 in the first place, which was that the journey was fulfilling and it wasn't just another "Get to max level NAO!" MMO.

I don't really think build diversity matters that much when more often than not you aren't going to end up using a core class to begin with, in almost any circumstance, outside of not having an elite spec unlocked. (Or in pvp, in some cases.)

I would also argue that yeah it does feel like kitten to level a class, but the whole point of it is to learn it, and ultimately go to an elite spec.

@"Taril.8619" said:Classes becoming Jobs in XIV are one of the games big failures. Which is probably why they were abandoned almost immediately after the 2.0 release (With all future Jobs being released stand alone without a class requirement)

Since they screw over players who wanted to play Archer, not Bard. Rogue, not Ninja. Gladiator, not Paladin. Conjurer, not White Mage. Etc.

Which means that their later updates to the Jobs was more difficult, because they were trying to please both Archer players and Bard players (I.e. Players who just wanted to shoot people with a Bow and players who wanted to support using Songs to buff allies) which is hard to do because you're trying to cater to 2 completely different class archetypes (The end result is "Bard" in XIV plays like an Archer who has Aura buffs that only have an appreciable effect on allies if you're analysing parses...)

Meanwhile, for GW2, if E-Specs were sidegrades, someone who wanted to play Mesmer, could play Mesmer, while someone who wanted to play Chronomancer could play Chronomancer. As opposed to someone who wants to play Mesmer having to play Chronomancer/Mirage because that E-Spec is just objectively more powerful.

In addition, having Core builds still be relevant, means there's more reason for ANet to bother actually implementing additional things to Core classes, such as additional weapon sets (Or buffing the current bad ones) or utility/Elite skills which would also improve options for E-Specs too. Rather than only adding things to classes via E-Specs which are only usable with that E-Spec and so becomes obsolete when they add in a new, stronger E-Spec that everyone will use.

I literally don't understand this lolI've never heard someone call it a fail in design, because I've never heard anyone complain about not being able to play a base class in FFXIV in all my years.

Again, with the way the game is currently built, it's not really reasonable to say that people can go about and play core classes in level 80 content, not in fractals, or raids. Maybe in open world, for sure, but not really anywhere else. Also a lot of the time, at least in pvp/wvw, weapons are changed because of elite specs, and not core classes. More over they could buff/change weapons in general, even if E-Specs were direct upgrades.

[zealex.9410]

@Astralporing.1957 said:That's the theory anyway. The problem here is that they actually managed to do that right only for a single espec - Druid. Druid healer is indeed something that offers an unique playstyle and new options, but is not really any better at the core Ranger specialties. In all other cases however, especs, even if designed to just offer more options, at the same time either do something the core class was already capable of (but do it way better), revolve around the base class primary competency (and, again, do it better), or just are a flat out upgrade to the core at everything that class was capable of doing.

It's just that the approach Anet took to tradeoffs is inherently flawed. The tradeoffs they try to offer are about class mechanics - but change nothing about what i said above.

Case in point: Ranger. The tradeoffs Anet decided to use here revolve around pets. So, for druid, pets get weakened - which doesn;t matter, really. The tradeoff for that elite spec does exist, and is good enough already. Druid was not a dps spec - it was support/healer spec. It's no accident that the dps ranger version was core condi build. The specialties of both core and druid were different, and they had very different playstyles, that didn;t have a lof of overlap, and those overlaps didn't cover either specs main purpose. Both cases were already sufficiently distinct.

Now consider soulbeast - here the tradeoff is that they don't get to swap pets in fight. Which (again) changes nothing. Soulbeast is still an upgrade at everything core Ranger was, except for one thing - being a pet class. Too bad, that pet was always a weakest element of the Ranger class - an anchor that kept dragging it down. Partly by design, as devs were always afraid of updating pets to the point where they would no longer be that weakness (it seems, that at this points pets would have been way too op to be allowed in the hands of better players :P). So, basically, Soulbeast gets to be a straight-up Ranger upgrade. And the tradeoff for that is not having to worry about the weakness of the core class.

One could argue the supportive role druid provided coupled with the already existing core made it quite the class to play against in the pvp modes, hence the pet nerf. Pet dmg doesnt scale with your dmg (or at least it didnt back there) so you had all the benefits of druid while also having your pet nuke ppl.

Also in its current state one could argue druid is too niche and underused, depending the gamemode.

This is, class on launch had already the capabilities of doing multiple things so the sidegrades were already few. Guard was already a capable dps but when dh came alot of ppl enjoyed the spec very much.

Core mesmer is able to be a power based dps in pvx yet i bet alot of ppl want to see a power dps spec for them regardless.

I think one of the cons of the system was the lack of elite specs on launch. If we had 4 or 5 base specs and then an elite spec for each class i think newer especs would fit in alot better because yhey would compete with an existing espec and not the base specs which you can freely use everywhere.

Rather than tradeoffs i think it would be alot better if anet instead introduced a core espec for each class (which is unlikely because especs take time and resources, resources they wouldnt invest in a free2play version of the game.)

Basically, Anet decided to concentrate with tradeoffs on something very visible, but completely superficial. What they instead should have done is to decide the specialty for core first, and make sure that not only at that specialty core will always be the best, but also that specialty will be something actually useful and important enough for the players to keep using core for that. Just changing the general feel and playstyle is not enough. It just makes the players that preferred the old playstyle have to make a hard choice of either accepting being crippled, or having to change to a playstyle they did not like.

Apart from Druid, they don't seem to have done that for any class and espec. And that, by the way, suggest, that them doing it right with Druid was mainly accidental.

Back then classes were supposed to be jack of all traits but master of non hence the freely combinable core specs that resulted in a bunch of builds. They could potentially change that now but that would require taking an existing soec and turning into an elite (locking a core weapon behind it and making said spec unable to be sloted with the current especs) or making a new soec for core alltogether.

[Taril.8619]

@Mobian.8256 said:I don't really think build diversity matters that much when more often than not you aren't going to end up using a core class to begin with, in almost any circumstance, outside of not having an elite spec unlocked. (Or in pvp, in some cases.)

I would also argue that yeah it does feel like kitten to level a class, but the whole point of it is to learn it, and ultimately go to an elite spec.

But that's the point.

Since, due to how OP Elite Specs are, given that in most cases they haven't been successfully balanced as sidegrades and are instead direct upgrades, you end up with reduced build diversity because you literally have no reason to do Core builds in many circumstances as well as having leveling focused entirely around "Get to level 80 so you can start playing your class"

@Mobian.8256 said:I literally don't understand this lolI've never heard someone call it a fail in design, because I've never heard anyone complain about not being able to play a base class in FFXIV in all my years.

1) The devs themselves called it a mistake.2) It's the reason why no Expansion Jobs have core classes3) There are quite a lot of complaints about not being able to play base classes. Notably a lot of people wanting to play Rogue (Or Thief) instead of Ninja as well as people wishing for Conjurer as a job (Not to mention how many years people have been asking for more element skills for WHM instead of only Stone and Aero... Then instead we have Shadowbringers delete Stone and Aero and give them Holy spells instead lel)4) There are also a ton of complaints about how Bard doesn't feel Bard-y enough, because of the devs trying to cater to Archer players.

@Mobian.8256 said:More over they could buff/change weapons in general, even if E-Specs were direct upgrades.

They theoretically could, yes.

But there's little reason for them to do so if the entire focus is on churning out new E-Specs constantly.

It's only if Core builds are viable and useful that it makes sense to add new stuff to Core, otherwise any new stuff that may be added to Core could just be thrown into a new E-Spec.

[mtpelion.4562]

One of the core trait lines should be converted into a Core Elite Specialization. Then the non-elite trait lines should be nerfed so that the majority of what you are looking for (damage, support, healing, etc.) comes from the elite lines and the non-elite lines are for fine tuning your spec.

[ParadoX.3124]

Trade off is just an excuse for PvP balancing, which is not working

[Ultramex.1506]

Oh please! Had you seen how since HoT, players have been complaining about powercreeep? Some WvW players even wanted E-spec removed so battle can last longer and not just over in 10 secs then do it all over againI blame Anet for making player act like this, instead of different ways to play the class, they straight up give it an upgrade, what are the chances Tag will pick core guardian over firebrand? Would you build a core guardian condi when firebrand offers better condi build?Trade-off are needed, it may not be great it may not to your liking but it has to start somewhere

[Teratus.2859]

@Mobian.8256 said:I personally don't think that elite specializations need trade-offs, because there shouldn't be a reason for you to want to have to go back to a base class, they should be upgrades to a class that bring in more, and make it more engaging.

That's not how Anet want them to be nor how they want people to view them either.They're better looked at like expansions to classes not upgrades.

Invalidating the core builds is a terrible idea and brings about all sorts of power creep issues while sometimes drastically changing how a class is played.Not to mention it leads to people moaning about pay to win when their core buidls get thrashed in PvP/WvW by elite specs... which has been an issue in the past.And tbf they did have a point back then.

[Westenev.5289]

I don't think Druid's Celestial Avatar justified a 20% pet nerf as a "trade off". Celestial Avatar now has a cooldown, fills slowly and has no offensive capability (read: sitting duck in pvp and pve) and is basically just a Firebrand F2 - and guess what, Firebrand also gets f1 and f3 skills with comparable (if not outright better) weapon and utility skills that give easy access to stability, quickness and protection. It's not like people take the Druid Specilization for the staff's amazing dps or unique buffs, so why did druid get nerfed again?

I thought Celestial Avatar's over-nerfed state and taking a dps-loss traitline WAS the trade off.

My question is: Does an elite spec REALLY need a "tradeoff" if it was already balanced with the class and the game at large?

[Astralporing.1957]

@zealex.9410 said:Back then classes were supposed to be jack of all traits but master of non hence the freely combinable core specs that resulted in a bunch of builds. They could potentially change that now but that would require taking an existing soec and turning into an elite (locking a core weapon behind it and making said spec unable to be sloted with the current especs) or making a new soec for core alltogether.I meant, that when they decided to introduce elite specs, they should have looked at each class, reserved at least one thing from all the stuff core could do (and not from niche, but main uses for that class), and make sure that this one thing will always remain core specialty. And, when designing an espec, they should not have started with a cool thematic idea (and then decided what role would fill that thematic). Instead, they should have done the opposite - looked which of the (non-reserved) roles they could use, and then design a thematic around that.In such a case, even if the new elite specs would end up encroaching upon stuff core could originally do, they would never take over all of its primary purposes - which is something that currently happens to practically all core classes.Elite spec traitlines should never have been filled with general buffs (and especially not with the general dps buffs). Instead, similar to how Druid was done, they should have been designed around enhancing only that one, specific role.

[VocalThought.9835]

@mtpelion.4562 said:One of the core trait lines should be converted into a Core Elite Specialization. Then the non-elite trait lines should be nerfed so that the majority of what you are looking for (damage, support, healing, etc.) comes from the elite lines and the non-elite lines are for fine tuning your spec.

No... They are doing the right thing. Why because that's what they said they wanted to do in the first place. When they first introduced elites it was to play the profession differently, not better. What would be the point of making the core an elite. Heck, they might as well just have just regular specializations and you pick a druid, soulbeast, and beastmastery. The point of having the elite is to show it requires intense training at a cost, hence the trade-off.

I think the changes they made to the Specializations from just simple Traits lines is one of the best things they could have done. Adding the Elites help cover missing class roles and themes. I think they're on the right track, and aren't taking away anything that unjustly.

[Astralporing.1957]

@VocalThought.9835 said:I think the changes they made to the Specializations from just simple Traits lines is one of the best things they could have done. Adding the Elites help cover missing class roles and themes. I think they're on the right track, and aren't taking away anything that unjustly.That would have been if they've done as they claimed they intended. Unfortunately, they didn't. Elite specs do take away from the core class, and not just small things, but their primary roles.

[VocalThought.9835]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I think the changes they made to the Specializations from just simple Traits lines is one of the best things they could have done. Adding the Elites help cover missing class roles and themes. I think they're on the right track, and aren't taking away anything that unjustly.That would have been if they've done as they claimed they intended. Unfortunately, they

didn't

. Elite specs do take away from the core class, and not just small things, but their primary roles.

How? I think we all have a different idea of what each professions core mechanics are and even more so with elite specializations and what their supposed to do.

[Taril.8619]

@VocalThought.9835 said:How? I think we all have a different idea of what each professions core mechanics are and even more so with elite specializations and what their supposed to do.

There's plenty of classes whom have E-Specs that do the same thing that their core class does. But better.

With very few being actual sidegrades that provide something a bit different for the class.

For example:

Elementalist's core mechanic is swapping attunements. Tempest gets the additional ability to Overload attunements while Weaver gets to combine 2 attunements at once.

Warrior's core mechanic is about gaining Adrenaline to fuel Burst skills. Berserker instead has Berserk skills and Spellbreaker gets Full Counter in addition to normal Burst skills.

Ranger's core mechanic is about having a pet to deal damage. Soulbeast also has a pet to deal damage, but can also merge to get better personal stats (Also, fully heal the pet)

Necro's core mechanic is about building up Life Force to then enter Shroud which drains it while providing a new stronger weaponset. Reaper does the same thing but with a stronger weaponset.

Guardian's core mechanic is having 3 virtues that are essentially Signets. Both Dragonhunter and Firebrand have the literal same mechanic, only stronger.

Thief's core mechanic is being able to steal items of enemies. Daredevil does the same thing but with a shorter CD unblockable steal that gives 50 endurance (At the cost of its range). Deadeye gets stronger steals and the Malice mechanic.

Engineer's core mechanic is having toolbelt skills. Both Scrapper and Holo also have toolbelt skills and have far stronger F5 skills than is obtained by Elite skills.

Mesmer's core mechanic is shattering their clones. Mirage has literally the same shatters (Literally, all Mirage does is provide a different dodge that lets you use Ambush skills. That's the entire E-Spec.)

Revenant's core mechanic is invoking a Legend. Both Herald and Renegade do the same thing, but have a unique stronger Legend they can use.

Essentially, Druid and Scourge are the only ones that do something notably different. Druid provides a completely different playstyle to core Ranger and typically builds in a different way (More support than DPS). While Scourge provides a unique mechanic for utilizing Life Force that isn't just entering a Shroud that drains it over time while replacing your skills.

With maybe Chrono being a possible include here, given that it provides unique Shatters, which have a different behaviour (Doesn't shatter from self) and some different effects (F1 dealing more damage to Slowed enemies, F2 having built in CDR, F3 also providing Slow and F4 being a massive DPS CD as opposed to a bunch of Distortion)

[VocalThought.9835]

I really like how they created each specialization and elite specializations. I feel they capture the spirit of each profession, and variations of the profession. Even within the specializations they have 3 lines of traits that helps define your character. I can see why the elites have a trade off since their getting new professional mechanics, it's like a 80 lvl thief is worse than an 80 Daredevil or Deadeye. They're just different.

[Astralporing.1957]

@VocalThought.9835 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I think the changes they made to the Specializations from just simple Traits lines is one of the best things they could have done. Adding the Elites help cover missing class roles and themes. I think they're on the right track, and aren't taking away anything that unjustly.That would have been if they've done as they claimed they intended. Unfortunately, they

didn't

. Elite specs do take away from the core class, and not just small things, but their primary roles.

How? I think we all have a different idea of what each professions core mechanics are and even more so with elite specializations and what their supposed to do.I said roles (functions), not mechanic. Can you give me one example per class of a role that was available to the core class, that the core class is still doing better than both of its elite specs?

@VocalThought.9835 said:it's like a 80 lvl thief is worse than an 80 Daredevil or Deadeye.Well, that's the point - isn't core here flat out worse in 99% of circumstances (beyond maybe Boon Thief edge case) than one (or both, usually both) of those especs?

[VocalThought.9835]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I think the changes they made to the Specializations from just simple Traits lines is one of the best things they could have done. Adding the Elites help cover missing class roles and themes. I think they're on the right track, and aren't taking away anything that unjustly.That would have been if they've done as they claimed they intended. Unfortunately, they

didn't

. Elite specs do take away from the core class, and not just small things, but their primary roles.

How? I think we all have a different idea of what each professions core mechanics are and even more so with elite specializations and what their supposed to do.I said roles (functions), not mechanic. Can you give me one example per class of a role that was available to the core class, that the core class is still doing better than both of its elite specs?

@VocalThought.9835 said:it's like a 80 lvl thief is worse than an 80 Daredevil or Deadeye.Well, that's the point - isn't core here flat out worse in 99% of circumstances (beyond maybe Boon Thief edge case) than one (or both, usually both) of those especs?

They're not supposed to be better. Now if you like them better, that's another thing, but it's simply intended to just be different.

[VocalThought.9835]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:I think the changes they made to the Specializations from just simple Traits lines is one of the best things they could have done. Adding the Elites help cover missing class roles and themes. I think they're on the right track, and aren't taking away anything that unjustly.That would have been if they've done as they claimed they intended. Unfortunately, they

didn't

. Elite specs do take away from the core class, and not just small things, but their primary roles.

How? I think we all have a different idea of what each professions core mechanics are and even more so with elite specializations and what their supposed to do.I said roles (functions), not mechanic. Can you give me one example per class of a role that was available to the core class, that the core class is still doing better than both of its elite specs?

I think it'll be easier for you to say what role function you think each profession is supposed to fill, since you believe that to be the case.

@VocalThought.9835 said:it's like a 80 lvl thief is worse than an 80 Daredevil or Deadeye.Well, that's the point - isn't core here flat out worse in 99% of circumstances (beyond maybe Boon Thief edge case) than one (or both, usually both) of those especs?

I see that the elites have been better than core, but that's not how they were initially presented when they first talked about them. I think many people would perfer to play a core profession than to feel forced to play an elite profession. Maybe because they rather have the same core prof. mechanics, or they don't want the expected penalties from choosing an elite, maybe they like vanilla.

[Perihen the Thawk.9527]

At this point I wouldn't mind if each profession got a new "core-style" elite spec that just buffs the core playstyle to make it more competitive with the new elite specs.

Mechanically I realize that this is no different from adding a new third elite spec, I just mean that styling and informing a new spec using the core playstyle and making it f2p would likely be the easiest technical way to solve this.

[Astralporing.1957]

@VocalThought.9835 said:They're not supposed to be better. Now if you like them better, that's another thing, but it's simply intended to just be different.They are indeed intended to be that way, but at this point they aren't. Elite specs are better at everything core specs were ever good at. They are not just different.

@VocalThought.9835 said:I think it'll be easier for you to say what role function you think each profession is supposed to fill, since you believe that to be the case.Basically anything the original, core classes were good at (except pure thematics). Anything you might want to do with a core class, is generally now better achieved by taking one of its elite specs.

@VocalThought.9835 said:I see that the elites have been better than core, but that's not how they were initially presented when they first talked about them. I think many people would perfer to play a core profession than to feel forced to play an elite profession. Maybe because they rather have the same core prof. mechanics, or they don't want the expected penalties from choosing an elite, maybe they like vanilla.Indeed, that's the way they should work. As they are now, that's not the way they actually do work, however.

[VocalThought.9835]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@VocalThought.9835 said:They're not supposed to be better. Now if you like them better, that's another thing, but it's simply intended to just be different.They are indeed intended to be that way, but at this point they

aren't

. Elite specs are better at

everything

core specs were ever good at. They are not just different.

@VocalThought.9835 said:I think it'll be easier for you to say what role function you think each profession is supposed to fill, since you believe that to be the case.Basically

anything

the original, core classes were good at (except pure thematics). Anything you might want to do with a core class, is generally now better achieved by taking one of its elite specs.

I see we have a totally different idea of what the function of the elites should be. I say go back and look and listen to what the Devs stated when they came out with HOT. And not to have a Neo Morpheus Matrix moment with you, but you said it yourself. How are they supposed to be better, if they're not? Mindblowing, I know. It's because they were never intended to be, hence why they put in more work to see that they're not. I can understand how the term "Elite" could fool you. Their only Elite because they can do what others in their profession couldn't do, hence why you can only have one elite Specializations at a time, access to a new weapon and skill set, but it comes at a cost.

Think of it like in the real world, some professions can dabble in a lot of different things, while others put more time and energy into a particular thing and have more skill in an area, but they not so good at something else the average person in their profession could do. It's no different. Like a Psychiatrist, any MD can prescribe medication, but their the best at Psychiatric Meds and they could do Psycho-therapy at the expense of being good with treating skin disorders and most definitely wouldn't treat cancer.