State of thief in PvE

[Shiyo.3578]

Sword/pistol could be buffed in PvE and be competitive for PvE without doing anything in any other modes since it's a relatively underused weapon combination now. Sword auto's are good cleave, blind powder is super nice for staying alive, headshot is good break, and pistol whip should be good DPS but is a loss over autoing(why??).

[saerni.2584]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How do you run out of stealth on a DE?

In pve? By not being slow with your rotations I guess. Unless you're using silent scope which is your choice, but still not sure why you're so surprised here.

I meant with Silent Scope.

Not that I’m trying to max out my damage or anything but...it seems sufficient.

Well, trying to max out dmg makes you run out of stealth. So that's how. ;p

I have never, personally, gotten the PvE obsession with maxing out damage with some perfect rotation. Like, in what content is that kind of maximum required? None. Not even raids actually require super optimized DPS.

I hear numbers being thrown around about ideal 35k DPS up to 40k DPS and I’m like...if everyone was at a comfortable 15k you’d probably clear the content easily. Most pugs aren’t going to reach 10k anyway.

And, those ideal numbers get thrown off whenever you get a mechanic where you need to pause or dodge or do something else for a few seconds. So you probably won’t even get the chance to pull off your ideal rotation and because the content is otherwise so easy the difference between ideal and non-ideal rotations will be, at most, a minute or two less to beat the encounter.

[Taril.8619]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How do you run out of stealth on a DE?

In pve? By not being slow with your rotations I guess. Unless you're using silent scope which is your choice, but still not sure why you're so surprised here.

I meant with Silent Scope.

Not that I’m trying to max out my damage or anything but...it seems sufficient.

Well, trying to max out dmg makes you run out of stealth. So that's how. ;p

I have never, personally, gotten the PvE obsession with maxing out damage with some perfect rotation. Like, in what content is that kind of maximum required? None. Not even raids actually require super optimized DPS.

Some people find it fun to try their best and improve their ability, as opposed to coasting through life doing the bare minimum required of them.

Some people also like to compete for fast clear times of bosses which relies on working together as a team all pushing out maximum DPS.

@saerni.2584 said:And, those ideal numbers get thrown off whenever you get a mechanic where you need to pause or dodge or do something else for a few seconds. So you probably won’t even get the chance to pull off your ideal rotation and because the content is otherwise so easy the difference between ideal and non-ideal rotations will be, at most, a minute or two less to beat the encounter.

That's part of the fun. To perform your best, despite mechanics trying to prevent you from doing that. Positioning so that you have to dodge fewer attacks, making sure that you stay above 90% life (For Runes of the Scholar bonuses), maintaining uptime on the boss, performing your rotation properly etc.

[saerni.2584]

@Taril.8619 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How do you run out of stealth on a DE?

In pve? By not being slow with your rotations I guess. Unless you're using silent scope which is your choice, but still not sure why you're so surprised here.

I meant with Silent Scope.

Not that I’m trying to max out my damage or anything but...it seems sufficient.

Well, trying to max out dmg makes you run out of stealth. So that's how. ;p

I have never, personally, gotten the PvE obsession with maxing out damage with some perfect rotation. Like, in what content is that kind of maximum required? None. Not even raids actually require super optimized DPS.

Some people find it fun to try their best and improve their ability, as opposed to coasting through life doing the bare minimum required of them.

Some people also like to compete for fast clear times of bosses which relies on working together as a team all pushing out maximum DPS.

@saerni.2584 said:And, those ideal numbers get thrown off whenever you get a mechanic where you need to pause or dodge or do something else for a few seconds. So you probably won’t even get the chance to pull off your ideal rotation and because the content is otherwise so easy the difference between ideal and non-ideal rotations will be, at most, a minute or two less to beat the encounter.

That's part of the fun. To perform your best, despite mechanics trying to prevent you from doing that. Positioning so that you have to dodge fewer attacks, making sure that you stay above 90% life (For Runes of the Scholar bonuses), maintaining uptime on the boss, performing your rotation properly etc.

Not sure I appreciate your tone here. No need to throw around insinuations of people “coasting through life.”

I understand other people find enjoyment value in reaching some maximum damage potential. That’s why I said “personally.” I’m also not saying a player shouldn’t build for damage, I do that in PvP (to a reasonable degree) so I can effectively contribute.

I’m saying at a certain point you gain very little benefit because you will be still be doing 200% or more of the average damage of everyone else. You will be performing above the standard required by the content by far. Speed runs aside I don’t see the point. If I have to swap to D/D to maintain DPS but that doesn’t suit the encounter, I might just stay in rifle and not worry that my DPS isn’t super optimized (even if I’m still higher than 95% of the other people).

But that’s me. It’s not a value judgment. You and anyone else is free to make their own choices.

[Sobx.1758]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How do you run out of stealth on a DE?

In pve? By not being slow with your rotations I guess. Unless you're using silent scope which is your choice, but still not sure why you're so surprised here.

I meant with Silent Scope.

Not that I’m trying to max out my damage or anything but...it seems sufficient.

Well, trying to max out dmg makes you run out of stealth. So that's how. ;p

I have never, personally, gotten the PvE obsession with maxing out damage with some perfect rotation. Like, in what content is that kind of maximum required? None. Not even raids actually require super optimized DPS.

Nothing is "required" anywhere. People min-max because they can and they want to. You can hop on your teammates backs and play through the whole content by pressing 1 (and no, I'm not saying that's what you do -but you can! ), but I'm not sure how that's an argument here.

You've condescendingly asked "how do you run out of stealth on DE". I told you how: by trying to maximize class' potential. Now you're getting defensive and pivot into "WHO NEEDS IT?!". Whether it's needed or not was never the point of discussion here. What exactly do you not understand about what I've said?

I hear numbers being thrown around about ideal 35k DPS up to 40k DPS and I’m like...if everyone was at a comfortable 15k you’d probably clear the content easily. Most pugs aren’t going to reach 10k anyway.

You don't need to tell me that. And I don't see how that's relevant in this comment chain at all.

And, those ideal numbers get thrown off whenever you get a mechanic where you need to pause or dodge or do something else for a few seconds. So you probably won’t even get the chance to pull off your ideal rotation and because the content is otherwise so easy the difference between ideal and non-ideal rotations will be, at most, a minute or two less to beat the encounter.

And yet, if you execute the rotation, you will run out of stealth. Which is also why I wrote in my initial response to your condescending question:"By not being slow with your rotations I guess"

[saerni.2584]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How do you run out of stealth on a DE?

In pve? By not being slow with your rotations I guess. Unless you're using silent scope which is your choice, but still not sure why you're so surprised here.

I meant with Silent Scope.

Not that I’m trying to max out my damage or anything but...it seems sufficient.

Well, trying to max out dmg makes you run out of stealth. So that's how. ;p

I have never, personally, gotten the PvE obsession with maxing out damage with some perfect rotation. Like, in what content is that kind of maximum required? None. Not even raids actually require super optimized DPS.

Nothing is "required" anywhere. People min-max because they can and they want to. You can hop on your teammates backs and play through the whole content by pressing 1, but I'm not sure how that's any argument here.

You've condescendingly asked "how do you run out of stealth on DE". I told you how: by trying to maximize class' potential. Now you're getting defensive and pivot into "WHO NEEDS IT?!". Whether it's needed or not was never a point of discussion here. What exactly do you not understand about what I've said?

I hear numbers being thrown around about ideal 35k DPS up to 40k DPS and I’m like...if everyone was at a comfortable 15k you’d probably clear the content easily. Most pugs aren’t going to reach 10k anyway.

You don't need to tell me that. And I don't see how that's relevant in this comment chain at all.

And, those ideal numbers get thrown off whenever you get a mechanic where you need to pause or dodge or do something else for a few seconds. So you probably won’t even get the chance to pull off your ideal rotation and because the content is otherwise so easy the difference between ideal and non-ideal rotations will be, at most, a minute or two less to beat the encounter.

And yet, if you execute the rotation, you will run out of stealth. Which is also why I wrote in my initial response to your condescending question:"By not being slow with your rotations I guess"

How is that condescending? It was a genuine question and you answered it. My comments after that aren’t attacks just side observations. I don’t see why you seem to think I’m somehow attacking you, that isn’t my intention at all.

Like, I get this is kind of par the course for this forum and it’s easy to assume the worst in people...so I can only say that wasn’t the intention and hope you take that as sincere.

[Sobx.1758]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How do you run out of stealth on a DE?

In pve? By not being slow with your rotations I guess. Unless you're using silent scope which is your choice, but still not sure why you're so surprised here.

I meant with Silent Scope.

Not that I’m trying to max out my damage or anything but...it seems sufficient.

Well, trying to max out dmg makes you run out of stealth. So that's how. ;p

I have never, personally, gotten the PvE obsession with maxing out damage with some perfect rotation. Like, in what content is that kind of maximum required? None. Not even raids actually require super optimized DPS.

Nothing is "required" anywhere. People min-max because they can and they want to. You can hop on your teammates backs and play through the whole content by pressing 1, but I'm not sure how that's any argument here.

You've condescendingly asked "how do you run out of stealth on DE". I told you how: by trying to maximize class' potential. Now you're getting defensive and pivot into "WHO NEEDS IT?!". Whether it's needed or not was never a point of discussion here. What exactly do you not understand about what I've said?

I hear numbers being thrown around about ideal 35k DPS up to 40k DPS and I’m like...if everyone was at a comfortable 15k you’d probably clear the content easily. Most pugs aren’t going to reach 10k anyway.

You don't need to tell me that. And I don't see how that's relevant in this comment chain at all.

And, those ideal numbers get thrown off whenever you get a mechanic where you need to pause or dodge or do something else for a few seconds. So you probably won’t even get the chance to pull off your ideal rotation and because the content is otherwise so easy the difference between ideal and non-ideal rotations will be, at most, a minute or two less to beat the encounter.

And yet, if you execute the rotation, you will run out of stealth. Which is also why I wrote in my initial response to your condescending question:"By not being slow with your rotations I guess"

How is that condescending? It was a genuine question and you answered it. My comments after that aren’t attacks just side observations. I don’t see why you seem to think I’m somehow attacking you, that isn’t my intention at all.

Like, I get this is kind of par the course for this forum and it’s easy to assume the worst in people...so I can only say that wasn’t the intention and hope you take that as sincere.

Ok then. It just looked a little weird to me when after the answer you've started saying it isn't needed and why people would even do that. I wasn't telling you -or anyone else- how to play the game. I'm well aware you don't need to be anywhere near the top of the dps charts to comfortably complete the content in this game (and I think that's a good thing) and that's pretty much what I've already wrote in other threads some time ago.Like you said, apparently I misjudged your intentions, no hard feelings here o/

[kash.9213]

@Taril.8619 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@saerni.2584 said:How do you run out of stealth on a DE?

In pve? By not being slow with your rotations I guess. Unless you're using silent scope which is your choice, but still not sure why you're so surprised here.

I meant with Silent Scope.

Not that I’m trying to max out my damage or anything but...it seems sufficient.

Well, trying to max out dmg makes you run out of stealth. So that's how. ;p

I have never, personally, gotten the PvE obsession with maxing out damage with some perfect rotation. Like, in what content is that kind of maximum required? None. Not even raids actually require super optimized DPS.

Some people find it fun to try their best and improve their ability, as opposed to coasting through life doing the bare minimum required of them.

Some people also like to compete for fast clear times of bosses which relies on working together as a team all pushing out maximum DPS.

@saerni.2584 said:And, those ideal numbers get thrown off whenever you get a mechanic where you need to pause or dodge or do something else for a few seconds. So you probably won’t even get the chance to pull off your ideal rotation and because the content is otherwise so easy the difference between ideal and non-ideal rotations will be, at most, a minute or two less to beat the encounter.

That's part of the fun. To perform your best, despite mechanics trying to prevent you from doing that. Positioning so that you have to dodge fewer attacks, making sure that you stay above 90% life (For Runes of the Scholar bonuses), maintaining uptime on the boss, performing your rotation properly etc.

Maxing dps within a threshold of response utility is definitely fun and it's also fun to post firsts in server chat or whatever but that's only when your team knows how to build and play to respond. If raiding builds were crafted to the best of a players ability then there wouldn't be a bunch of raiders crying about having to WvW for collections and stuff, they should be superstars in any mode if they're trying their best.

[Mor The Thief.9135]

IMO Sword/X could use a buff in damage in PvE, for example Sword/Pistol can be an option in addition to Staff for Daredevil since it doesn't rely on stealth usually but can still use its stealth with dodging in Black Powder to get the increase from the Revealed trait, while Sword/Dagger can be an option for DE since with Dagger OH one has an easy access to stealth...

All it needs is just some flat damage increase across all its skills... and maybe make its Stealth attack actually do decent damage as well...

[Shiyo.3578]

@Mor The Thief.9135 said:IMO Sword/X could use a buff in damage in PvE, for example Sword/Pistol can be an option in addition to Staff for Daredevil since it doesn't rely on stealth usually but can still use its stealth with dodging in Black Powder to get the increase from the Revealed trait, while Sword/Dagger can be an option for DE since with Dagger OH one has an easy access to stealth...

All it needs is just some flat damage increase across all its skills... and maybe make its Stealth attack actually do decent damage as well...

Yeah, it's really easy to fix and only requires numerical changes. I'm not sure why they haven't buffed it, I find sword thief really fun but it's very weak as it's DPS is so far below anything else.

Tactical strike could do 4x the damage, autos 2x the damage, pistol whip 2x the damage, lacern strike 2x the damage and sword would be pretty ok in PvE but still not top tier.

[Arturo.1298]

This is really sad to see people always saying things that are to say the least partially true or not true at all, i have been maining thief for more than 5 years and its not as bad as plenty of people claim it to be, espetially dead eye, its a matter of learnin to play the game.that dead eye its usless in open world unless its pistol pistol thats ridiculous, rifle and d/d dead eye has extremly descent self sustain, i have soloed events with champion bosses or higher and yes can be hard some times but i will repeated its a matter of learning to play the game, fractalas and raids rifle dead eye its pretty descent i dont know why people think its usless, in some fractals i have managed tu pull 40k dps with dead eye, the truth is that its not that reliable or practical in most cases because of the adds or if the boss moves plenty, so most of the times dare its more practical and beneficial, and i believe that de dps output of dare its fair i mean the elite spec has one of the easiest dps rotation to pull off with descent AoE awhile being really mobile, you just use most of the time 3 keys wich one of them its 1 common.

I will resume it too you guys, the enemy has adds or is alone? it it has adds then dare its better and easier, the boss is alone dead eye its easier, plenty of damage and relly easy tu pull off and can be either d/d or rifle, being rifle higher dps, if your teams need more cc bring dager pistol and boom, plenty of cc with 4.

All this is a matter of knowing the class and exploit the strong areas to cover or make it for the weakenesses. my recomendation its enjoy the game and learn to play it, all this its only pve oriented pvp its a totally different story XD

[Tuna Bandit.3786]

@saerni.2584 said:How do you run out of stealth on a DE?

Specially in PvE you don't.If you do, you're doing it wrong.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Hold on, D/D is a viable weapon in PvE?

[Arcaniaxs.4519]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Hold on, D/D is a viable weapon in PvE?

Shortbow power is even viableI lvled up my thief only using d/d

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Hold on, D/D is a viable weapon in PvE?

Shortbow power is even viableI lvled up my thief only using d/d

Open world ofc d/d will feel fine while leveling. Enter HoT and PoF and you'll feel the difference between staff, or even rifle, and the core weapon sets. Staff dishes out consistent burst damage, d/d only has backstab which barely even rivals one Weakening Charge.

Shortbow is mainly used for skips. If you want better sustained damage against a boss, p/p will always be superior.

[kash.9213]

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:Hold on, D/D is a viable weapon in PvE?

Shortbow power is even viableI lvled up my thief only using d/d

Open world ofc d/d will feel fine while leveling. Enter HoT and PoF and you'll feel the difference between staff, or even rifle, and the core weapon sets. Staff dishes out consistent burst damage, d/d only has backstab which barely even rivals one Weakening Charge.

Shortbow is mainly used for skips. If you want better sustained damage against a boss, p/p will always be superior.

Life steal d/d with sb is fine and good for crowds.

[Shiyo.3578]

Deadeye is fine as P/P, and Daredevil is fine as staff but you need to take invigorating precision and acro with assassin's reward to have enough sustain to solo champions and not randomly die to dumb stuff as staff daredevil.

[Sylari.9814]

@Roche.7491 said:

The only solution to this is to introduce an assassin type dual swords thief that can reck havoc in 1v1 and that's what we are looking at in the next expansion.

Canthan Expansion:Assassin - best at 1v1

Yeah because clearly if there's some niche that needs to be explored on Thief it's single target power damage and being a pvp/wvw duelist/skirmisher. Hard, hard pass on that idea.

[kanatakamura.7502]

On 7/1/2020 at 3:31 AM, crazyhusky.2985 said:

I do agree Thief lacks anything that would help it out in the PvE enviornement. You really have to trait into it and even then most classes can do the job better.AoEs and support would be nice but that goes against the whole design idea for thief, the sneaky jump in kill and jump out.It is pretty much a PvP and a 1v1 class.

Shealth is not useful in a PvE environment where the mobs/bosses kinda cheats and is still kind locked on to you, it doesn't help against fights or raids either.

In WvW theives are more of an annoyance rather helping.Against them, They just annoy groups and picking off randoms. Thats not fun. Watching a thief follow your then shealth and run away when you turn around.The whole perma shealthing in the towers and keeps just wastes time. It wouldn't be so bad but A-Net for some reason gave theives portals. Why?When they are on your side, you kinda don't want them there, because you want a class/spec that can contribute group/zerg effectively.You don't get access to much to help out, The only form of Stability theives get is a stolen skill but they need find a mesmar.

Personally I think thief needs something else to make it more useful to help it support people.Get rid of the Thief Traps, (Preparations) there wasn't a point of redoing them, since they are a bit subpar are just annoying to use, also they feel VERY situational.When you use a Preparation and you have to wait 3 secs into order to use it, so if you're in a fight and the foe sees you place it, the foe will move out or away from it and aviod it, Unlike Ranger and Dragonhunter Traps which go off instantly.

What they should do is.Replace the traps (Preparations) with Shouts. This way thief has a way to give boons allies, Furthemore it still keeps thief mobile like they should be.Give it 2 boon shouts and 1 or 2 condition based shout, With one of these shouts being an AoE reveal, with another being able to clear 1 or 2 conditions.I feel like this would help thief in the PvE a lot.

soo the whole support thief shinnegans was made by a salty guardian main what were the odds, thank you anet! Now we have sPeCtEr

[SOLITWOLF.7514]

invigorating precision changes just officially made thief become the least profession anyone should pick as their main. i mean you can enjoy thief but there other professions which can do what thief does, but better. except you want to be stealth at all times, thief still does best in that category.

[crazyhusky.2985]

On 3/11/2022 at 5:12 AM, kanatakamura.7502 said:

soo the whole support thief shinnegans was made by a salty guardian main what were the odds, thank you anet! Now we have sPeCtEr

Lol, Do you really think they would base a whole elite spec off of a post made a year before they announced an Expansion.

Thief was the only class in the game to not have any proper form of support.

So naturally they gave it one. Now, every class has form of support. They have been wanting to diversify the roles between classes for a while.

Edited March 12, 2022 by crazyhusky.2985
typo

[Doggie.3184]

The entire Thief class is designed and balanced within the PvP lobby; which is why we never get new weapon skill aoes and a lot of things make no sense in PvE like Measured Shot, Sword, Shadow Strike, and so on. Some proof of this is how he forgot to add Wells and Torment-Weaponskills to underwater, since there's no water in Spvp lobby. 

[Infinity.2876]

I kind of think that while in open world you could have a thing that made it so you wouldn't go invis but stealth could last longer

[kanatakamura.7502]

On 3/12/2022 at 5:08 AM, crazyhusky.2985 said:

Lol, Do you really think they would base a whole elite spec off of a post made a year before they announced an Expansion.

Thief was the only class in the game to not have any proper form of support.

So naturally they gave it one. Now, every class has form of support. They have been wanting to diversify the roles between classes for a while.

lol a support necro you mean? cause the scepter game play is just a walmart necro, yea I belive anet would do anything to kitten thief up, they hate thief soo much they turned the new spec into a necromancer and nerfed both dd and de, oh yes what I always wanted casted tps on thief and wells OHH THATS SOO GREAT AND SCEPTER I GET TO USE A SCEPTER AS THIEF, thats soo cool! all specter tps can be interrupted in pvp, u just pistol 4 and boom no tp, oh nicee I have shourd now but wait why dont I just play reaper or scourge then, shut up we are diversifying, thats soo new even the animations are not reused assets oh wait they are, literally a necro but purple, and another thing rogues were always the glass canons why would pick thief to play support?????? it doesnt make sense 

Edited March 18, 2022 by kanatakamura.7502