Decrease initiative for pistol whip

[Dantheman.3589]

The increase to damage of pistol whip was good, it is now comparable to sword dagger damage. Also the buff to crit strikes was good, it feels really good on both sword d and sword p. Sword pistol could be very viable, but it feels clunky with a 6 initiative. The old problems with the weapon set are no longer present. It does do great damage unless you play a pure damage line and it doesn’t really 1v1 forever as well with the nerfed EF etc. All these changes are good and pistol whip is no where close to being a problem so decrease initiative to 5 if you want anyone to play it.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Dantheman.3589 said:The increase to damage of pistol whip was good, it is now comparable to sword dagger damage. Also the buff to crit strikes was good, it feels really good on both sword d and sword p. Sword pistol could be very viable, but it feels clunky with a 6 initiative. The old problems with the weapon set are no longer present. It does do great damage unless you play a pure damage line and it doesn’t really 1v1 forever as well with the nerfed EF etc. All these changes are good and pistol whip is no where close to being a problem so decrease initiative to 5 if you want anyone to play it.

Nah, leave it at 6.People fought tooth and nail to get it bumped up to six, lamenting how they were getting stunlocked by pistol whip spam.Keep it right where it is. Let it be clunky and unappealing to people who don't moderate their initiative.

That forum riot happened this year. If they get hit by pistol whip now they deserve it.

[Dantheman.3589]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:The increase to damage of pistol whip was good, it is now comparable to sword dagger damage. Also the buff to crit strikes was good, it feels really good on both sword d and sword p. Sword pistol could be very viable, but it feels clunky with a 6 initiative. The old problems with the weapon set are no longer present. It does do great damage unless you play a pure damage line and it doesn’t really 1v1 forever as well with the nerfed EF etc. All these changes are good and pistol whip is no where close to being a problem so decrease initiative to 5 if you want anyone to play it.

Nah, leave it at 6.People fought tooth and nail to get it bumped up to six, lamenting how they were getting stunlocked by pistol whip spam.Keep it right where it is. Let it be clunky and unappealing to people who don't moderate their initiative.

That forum riot happened this year. If they get hit by pistol whip now they deserve it.

My problem is that unlike sword dagger - the only thing that I can hit with besides autos For damage is pistol whip, tbh autos aren’t amazing but pgood with crit strikes. The dl is in my test that you hit pw it can be good, if you miss you are useless- so if it’s bulky ppl will see those times it’s useless and not touch it, but if it’s only moderately bulking at 5 initiative then ppl will see more good in it and I’m like 90% sure it won’t be too busted- it will just end up a decent team fighter to interrupt Eles and hit good cleave

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Dantheman.3589 said:you hit pw it can be good, if you miss you are useless-

Good. Leave it like that.It still works as an evade after, so that's fine.

Just don't miss.

[Dantheman.3589]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:you hit pw it can be good, if you miss you are useless-

Good. Leave it like that.It still works as an evade after, so that's fine.

Just don't miss.

Yeah your right I don’t actually believe it’s bad, I’ve actually had it rated on metabattle as still workable, but it was workable most as a niche build- take it down to 5 and it’ll be workable as a regular build, which is my intent with this post, which you are allowed to agree or disagree with.

[foste.3098]

Pw by design will always be polarizing in that it is oppressive but playable or mediocre but unplayable. This is due to it being the only damaging skill on the entire sword/pistol set, and so the only thing you can use to deal damage.The best thing that could happen is a total rework of the dual wield skill of s/p to something that can be playable and not oppressive; aka not a skill with hard cc. But even this will not solve the s/p issue as you will still play by just spamming 3 unless the new skill comes with some sort of combo potential with black powder so that you can weave skill 3 in to tactical strike and auto attacks now that you are covered by a daze/blind.

[Dantheman.3589]

@foste.3098 said:Pw by design will always be polarizing in that it is oppressive but playable or mediocre but unplayable. This is due to it being the only damaging skill on the entire sword/pistol set, and so the only thing you can use to deal damage.The best thing that could happen is a total rework of the dual wield skill of s/p to something that can be playable and not oppressive; aka not a skill with hard cc. But even this will not solve the s/p issue as you will still play by just spamming 3 unless the new skill comes with some sort of combo potential with black powder so that you can weave skill 3 in to tactical strike and auto attacks now that you are covered by a daze/blind.

Fair, but I feel the reworks which nerfed overall play have brought pw to a close to balanced good state. Cc spam isn’t as punishable and pulm isn’t strong too where it can replace burst, also the nerf to EF brought down the 1v1 potential from good enough to take sides to enough to stall for only a tiny bit. Pw is still an all in 1 skill but it’s been brought to a point where it’s only good in plusses as a roamer which is about as balanced as you can ask which is all in one skill, but not oppressive in any of those categories.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

s/p requires less braincells then flamer scrapper

[Avatar.3568]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:s/p requires less braincells then flamer scrapper

Best

[Curennos.9307]

Why not just make it refund 1 ini when you land the first hit.

[anjo.6143]

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:No.S/p teef meta was the worst one, right after condi teef. Both requires no skill, no brain, no mechanics.Its a stupid skill that favors handless teef players. If u want to spam thief version of blurred frenzy with additional effects - go to PvE. In competetive modes learn to use weapons requiring presence of at least 1 braincell.

Or maybe you are just angry that you cannot get to a high enough rating on those builds. The key is try and actually get good at the game instead of clicking things randomly

No, Im not angry. S/p teefs were/are the easiest to predict, punish and BM right after for playing this spec. I dont like mindless builds, and this is one of them.Btw rating in 2020 xD. I can show you how to get Leg rat either on d/p or s/d teef, but that doesnt matter. You dont have to ask opinion of teefs that know what theyre doing, just look at this thread. Every1 knows that this build is mindless.

Probably better delete sword and staff for thieves, cause only build that demands brain effort is dp roamer.

[Rukia.4802]

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:No.S/p teef meta was the worst one, right after condi teef. Both requires no skill, no brain, no mechanics.Its a stupid skill that favors handless teef players. If u want to spam thief version of blurred frenzy with additional effects - go to PvE. In competetive modes learn to use weapons requiring presence of at least 1 braincell.

Or maybe you are just angry that you cannot get to a high enough rating on those builds. The key is try and actually get good at the game instead of clicking things randomly

No, Im not angry. S/p teefs were/are the easiest to predict, punish and BM right after for playing this spec. I dont like mindless builds, and this is one of them.Btw rating in 2020 xD. I can show you how to get Leg rat either on d/p or s/d teef, but that doesnt matter. You dont have to ask opinion of teefs that know what theyre doing, just look at this thread. Every1 knows that this build is mindless.

What isn't completely mindless or cheese in this game, I'm really interested ? I've never felt skillful in this game, except maybe when I solo q carried on thief to legend in early season when people still played pvp.

[Widmo.3186]

@Rukia.4802 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:No.S/p teef meta was the worst one, right after condi teef. Both requires no skill, no brain, no mechanics.Its a stupid skill that favors handless teef players. If u want to spam thief version of blurred frenzy with additional effects - go to PvE. In competetive modes learn to use weapons requiring presence of at least 1 braincell.

Or maybe you are just angry that you cannot get to a high enough rating on those builds. The key is try and actually get good at the game instead of clicking things randomly

No, Im not angry. S/p teefs were/are the easiest to predict, punish and BM right after for playing this spec. I dont like mindless builds, and this is one of them.Btw rating in 2020 xD. I can show you how to get Leg rat either on d/p or s/d teef, but that doesnt matter. You dont have to ask opinion of teefs that know what theyre doing, just look at this thread. Every1 knows that this build is mindless.

What isn't completely mindless or cheese in this game, I'm really interested ? I've never felt skillful in this game, except maybe when I solo q carried on thief to legend in early season when people still played pvp.

And I agree, thats true. But you know, life is not white and black, its grey. There are less and more mindless builds, and s/p is on the very top of the list

[Leonidrex.5649]

@anjo.6143 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:No.S/p teef meta was the worst one, right after condi teef. Both requires no skill, no brain, no mechanics.Its a stupid skill that favors handless teef players. If u want to spam thief version of blurred frenzy with additional effects - go to PvE. In competetive modes learn to use weapons requiring presence of at least 1 braincell.

Or maybe you are just angry that you cannot get to a high enough rating on those builds. The key is try and actually get good at the game instead of clicking things randomly

No, Im not angry. S/p teefs were/are the easiest to predict, punish and BM right after for playing this spec. I dont like mindless builds, and this is one of them.Btw rating in 2020 xD. I can show you how to get Leg rat either on d/p or s/d teef, but that doesnt matter. You dont have to ask opinion of teefs that know what theyre doing, just look at this thread. Every1 knows that this build is mindless.

Probably better delete sword and staff for thieves, cause only build that demands brain effort is dp roamer.

no? d/p is one of the lowest imo.at the top its propably s/d followed by staff, and everything else just goes down down down.stealthing for 20s+ at a time -> huge brain effort

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i've always liked the skill but it does way too much. i could see the ini cost going to 5 or even 4 but anet would have to make big shaves on the other things that makes it good, which might result in it being an even worse spammy trolly build.

[Dantheman.3589]

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Rukia.4802 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:No.S/p teef meta was the worst one, right after condi teef. Both requires no skill, no brain, no mechanics.Its a stupid skill that favors handless teef players. If u want to spam thief version of blurred frenzy with additional effects - go to PvE. In competetive modes learn to use weapons requiring presence of at least 1 braincell.

Or maybe you are just angry that you cannot get to a high enough rating on those builds. The key is try and actually get good at the game instead of clicking things randomly

No, Im not angry. S/p teefs were/are the easiest to predict, punish and BM right after for playing this spec. I dont like mindless builds, and this is one of them.Btw rating in 2020 xD. I can show you how to get Leg rat either on d/p or s/d teef, but that doesnt matter. You dont have to ask opinion of teefs that know what theyre doing, just look at this thread. Every1 knows that this build is mindless.

What isn't completely mindless or cheese in this game, I'm really interested ? I've never felt skillful in this game, except maybe when I solo q carried on thief to legend in early season when people still played pvp.

And I agree, thats true. But you know, life is not white and black, its grey. There are less and more mindless builds, and s/p is on the very top of the list

S/p is not mindless by nature. Imo look at old sinderner vids of playing pistol whip- it took skill. The only thing that was brain dead was acro thief being able to just dodge with pistol whip, which you cannot really do anymore.Also that “brain dead build” had counters from the very beginning, as literally the sec the build came out I tested that and proposed that double DA thief comps would not only be better but counter that and guess what everyone agreed and adjusted the meta comps.Innovation is > than build. Take from some one who’s made a bunch of builds that have ended up as meta.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Pd thief isn't mindless per se but I can see why it seems mindless to people that face it, just like condi teef, sd or dp teef these devs dont know how to design a rogue class which I evident in its design. Every single thief weapon set relies on one skill for damage which on it's own is poor design in itself but add the ini system and uve now promoted one button spam playstyle for every weapon, good job!Given thiefs ini system damage should be spread throughout the skills and maybe used a system where skills do more if done after a certain skill or in certain combos as well as certain skills having a stronger effect on players who are inflicted with certain conditions. This way u promote varied inputs during combat instead of the current "this is ur damage skill". I think spreading the damage across skills thru combo'ing would avoid thief becoming OP as due to the ini system just spreading damage across its skills may be to OP.

[foste.3098]

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Given thiefs ini system damage should be spread throughout the skills and maybe used a system where skills do more if done after a certain skill or in certain combos as well as certain skills having a stronger effect on players who are inflicted with certain conditions. This way u promote varied inputs during combat instead of the current "this is ur damage skill".

This is hilarious since guild wars 1 assassin, the thief progenitor, had this exact concept for its dagger chain combos where to use a dual attack skill you've had to previously hit with an offhand skill, and to use that you had to have landed a hit with a lead attack skill (there were some exceptions to this where a offhand skill can be used without a prerequisite).As you said they could have carried over this system and made it so that certain weapon skills (skill 3 and 5 for example) have extra effects if before using them you landed a hit with, lets say the final skill in the auto attack chain, or skill 2, or any number of other requirements. This way you would not be able to repeatedly use the same skill for maximum effect (hello pistol whip, vault, or any other time spamming 1 button was the best way to push out damage), but instead would have to weave said skill with its prerequisite skill for maximum effect.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@foste.3098 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Given thiefs ini system damage should be spread throughout the skills and maybe used a system where skills do more if done after a certain skill or in certain combos as well as certain skills having a stronger effect on players who are inflicted with certain conditions. This way u promote varied inputs during combat instead of the current "this is ur damage skill".

This is hilarious since guild wars 1 assassin, the thief progenitor, had this exact concept for its dagger chain combos where to use a dual attack skill you've had to previously hit with an offhand skill, and to use that you had to have landed a hit with a lead attack skill (there were some exceptions to this where a offhand skill can be used without a prerequisite).As you said they could have carried over this system and made it so that certain weapon skills (skill 3 and 5 for example) have extra effects if before using them you landed a hit with, lets say the final skill in the auto attack chain, or skill 2, or any number of other requirements. This way you would not be able to repeatedly use the same skill for maximum effect (hello pistol whip, vault, or any other time spamming 1 button was the best way to push out damage), but instead would have to weave said skill with its prerequisite skill for maximum effect.

Honestly a system like this would be essential to avoid promoting one skill spam given the ini mechanic but that requires a slight forthought in design and who we kidding here haha

[anjo.6143]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@anjo.6143 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:No.S/p teef meta was the worst one, right after condi teef. Both requires no skill, no brain, no mechanics.Its a stupid skill that favors handless teef players. If u want to spam thief version of blurred frenzy with additional effects - go to PvE. In competetive modes learn to use weapons requiring presence of at least 1 braincell.

Or maybe you are just angry that you cannot get to a high enough rating on those builds. The key is try and actually get good at the game instead of clicking things randomly

No, Im not angry. S/p teefs were/are the easiest to predict, punish and BM right after for playing this spec. I dont like mindless builds, and this is one of them.Btw rating in 2020 xD. I can show you how to get Leg rat either on d/p or s/d teef, but that doesnt matter. You dont have to ask opinion of teefs that know what theyre doing, just look at this thread. Every1 knows that this build is mindless.

Probably better delete sword and staff for thieves, cause only build that demands brain effort is dp roamer.

no? d/p is one of the lowest imo.at the top its propably s/d followed by staff, and everything else just goes down down down.stealthing for 20s+ at a time -> huge brain effort

You r not a thief player, right?

[Dantheman.3589]

@anjo.6143 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@anjo.6143 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:No.S/p teef meta was the worst one, right after condi teef. Both requires no skill, no brain, no mechanics.Its a stupid skill that favors handless teef players. If u want to spam thief version of blurred frenzy with additional effects - go to PvE. In competetive modes learn to use weapons requiring presence of at least 1 braincell.

Or maybe you are just angry that you cannot get to a high enough rating on those builds. The key is try and actually get good at the game instead of clicking things randomly

No, Im not angry. S/p teefs were/are the easiest to predict, punish and BM right after for playing this spec. I dont like mindless builds, and this is one of them.Btw rating in 2020 xD. I can show you how to get Leg rat either on d/p or s/d teef, but that doesnt matter. You dont have to ask opinion of teefs that know what theyre doing, just look at this thread. Every1 knows that this build is mindless.

Probably better delete sword and staff for thieves, cause only build that demands brain effort is dp roamer.

no? d/p is one of the lowest imo.at the top its propably s/d followed by staff, and everything else just goes down down down.stealthing for 20s+ at a time -> huge brain effort

You r not a thief player, right?

I am and though I don’t really like the dp meta, it doesn’t feel like the other thief metas, though I think it’s a solid build for top teir. I wouldn’t mind an s/d or s/p meta or a mauraders staff meta, which I doubt would happen becuz it lacks chase potential and is high risk. Generally the thief “meta” is what Evers lowest risk these days, which doesn’t feel skillful, though not unskillful

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Nope. But up the damage a LITTLE more. Alternatively, make Pulimonary Impact actually usable again.

[anjo.6143]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@anjo.6143 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@anjo.6143 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:No.S/p teef meta was the worst one, right after condi teef. Both requires no skill, no brain, no mechanics.Its a stupid skill that favors handless teef players. If u want to spam thief version of blurred frenzy with additional effects - go to PvE. In competetive modes learn to use weapons requiring presence of at least 1 braincell.

Or maybe you are just angry that you cannot get to a high enough rating on those builds. The key is try and actually get good at the game instead of clicking things randomly

No, Im not angry. S/p teefs were/are the easiest to predict, punish and BM right after for playing this spec. I dont like mindless builds, and this is one of them.Btw rating in 2020 xD. I can show you how to get Leg rat either on d/p or s/d teef, but that doesnt matter. You dont have to ask opinion of teefs that know what theyre doing, just look at this thread. Every1 knows that this build is mindless.

Probably better delete sword and staff for thieves, cause only build that demands brain effort is dp roamer.

no? d/p is one of the lowest imo.at the top its propably s/d followed by staff, and everything else just goes down down down.stealthing for 20s+ at a time -> huge brain effort

You r not a thief player, right?

I am and though I don’t really like the dp meta, it doesn’t feel like the other thief metas, though I think it’s a solid build for top teir. I wouldn’t mind an s/d or s/p meta or a mauraders staff meta, which I doubt would happen becuz it lacks chase potential and is high risk. Generally the thief “meta” is what Evers lowest risk these days, which doesn’t feel skillful, though not unskillful

I dont think low risk means easy to play, you can escape any combat and yet kill nobody, cap nothing, plus none, and be -1 on your team.I dont think it is only about press keys, it is about rotations, battle choices, mind games, etc.I think staff and sword easier to play, there is no much variations and possibilities (dodges, vaults and staff 2 combo with steal and sword 2 + sword 3 spam + returns), but since thieves has no survivability atm, you only can get away with stealth, anyways

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@anjo.6143 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@anjo.6143 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@anjo.6143 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Widmo.3186 said:No.S/p teef meta was the worst one, right after condi teef. Both requires no skill, no brain, no mechanics.Its a stupid skill that favors handless teef players. If u want to spam thief version of blurred frenzy with additional effects - go to PvE. In competetive modes learn to use weapons requiring presence of at least 1 braincell.

Or maybe you are just angry that you cannot get to a high enough rating on those builds. The key is try and actually get good at the game instead of clicking things randomly

No, Im not angry. S/p teefs were/are the easiest to predict, punish and BM right after for playing this spec. I dont like mindless builds, and this is one of them.Btw rating in 2020 xD. I can show you how to get Leg rat either on d/p or s/d teef, but that doesnt matter. You dont have to ask opinion of teefs that know what theyre doing, just look at this thread. Every1 knows that this build is mindless.

Probably better delete sword and staff for thieves, cause only build that demands brain effort is dp roamer.

no? d/p is one of the lowest imo.at the top its propably s/d followed by staff, and everything else just goes down down down.stealthing for 20s+ at a time -> huge brain effort

You r not a thief player, right?

I am and though I don’t really like the dp meta, it doesn’t feel like the other thief metas, though I think it’s a solid build for top teir. I wouldn’t mind an s/d or s/p meta or a mauraders staff meta, which I doubt would happen becuz it lacks chase potential and is high risk. Generally the thief “meta” is what Evers lowest risk these days, which doesn’t feel skillful, though not unskillful

I dont think low risk means easy to play, you can escape any combat and yet kill nobody, cap nothing, plus none, and be -1 on your team.I dont think it is only about press keys, it is about rotations, battle choices, mind games, etc.I think staff and sword easier to play, there is no much variations and possibilities (dodges, vaults and staff 2 combo with steal and sword 2 + sword 3 spam + returns), but since thieves has no survivability atm, you only can get away with stealth, anyways

You can't spam sword 2 + 3. Ask any actual thief player. Best way to get killed, really.

[saerni.2584]

People who spam get killed. Honestly, if your opponent actually bothers to play “insert profession here” well it will not be as easy as people say.

Like, soulbeast and holo are hard fights for a thief if played well. I enjoy those fights most because they are challenging.