Bring back the holy trinity.

[Vision.7265]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Gamers want rich complexity of choice, it's interesting and rewarding. Trinity enforces the absolute opposite if this: meat shield, healer, dps focus on dmg meters and stack on healer. A gaming dead end.

Not that I think GW2 should go trinity, but while going the route less traveled sounds nice, that they replace the things they take away with things that already exist in so-called restrictive trinity games is a bit of a let down. That they had to then add in lame psuedo versions of tank and healer roles just to come up with partly compelling raid encounters is also telling.

IMO, typical raiding requires trinity which is why it doesn't fit so well in GW2. IMO also, raiding should have never been implemented in GW2. /shrug

I agree. It corrupted the happy community overall. Play as you want (exploration, experimentation, and fun) became a job (you must have this build, this gear, and this item).

What's sad is that I realize there are people that primarily play the closed, optional content who do not even know the rich lore of this game, read any of the books, or explored the vastness and beauty of the world that Anet created.

That's the draw: that vast open world where we play as we want.

Raids were a haphazard addition to this game at best. Trinity didn't exist in the traditional sense before raids because build diversity matched the original open world ethos.

[lil muffin.1250]

I dont even care about raiding honestly.I care about other things in the world.Every fight is just a bunch of people dps a boss.in the open world.maybe not the trinity but they need to do something to diversify the classes.

Maybe warriors need spec where they block instead of dodge roll.Maybe some stats need to have different starting points based on specs.May specs more specific while still allowing for flexibility.

[Ashen.2907]

@lil muffin.1250 said:but as a warrior...you shouldnt be able to provide a full heal to yourself.

Prove it.

Why not? You support your statement about as well as I might a claim that, as a warrior you should only be able to wield carp as a weapon.

[Ragebru.1397]

@lil muffin.1250 said:

@Astyrah.4015 said:if they enforced holy trinity in GW2, i might finally roll a healer class

but i want targetted, direct heals & buffs if it ever happened.

this is exactly what i'm saying.that feeling of saving someone with a targeted healing skill is missing here.or purpose giving someone might so they can use their next big attack on the boss for tons of damage.

this not only feels good for the healer/ supporter but it makes the dps grateful to the healer.

Targeted heals when you have a squad of 50? No thanks.

[Astyrah.4015]

@jwhite.7012 said:Targeted heals when you have a squad of 50? No thanks.

if you ever healed in ffxiv (or similar games) that 50 person squad (for example) would be split into about 5 parties with 1 to 3 healers each party and you'll mostly be focusing on your tank for direct heals and just throwing an aoe-regen on your dps since they shouldn't be taking any damage anyway unless it's a raidwide damage phase where you aoe-heal (but for a large radius).　if it ever happened in gw2 (which is very unlikely, and i don't mind it not happening) you wouldn't have 50 or 49 players of the squad lumping into party 1, commanders would definitely recruit a minimum amount of tanks and healers and split the whole squad into parties. but yeah if it happened then i'll finally roll a healer class as i mentioned in my first reply to this thread

[Ragebru.1397]

@Astyrah.4015 said:

@jwhite.7012 said:Targeted heals when you have a squad of 50? No thanks.

if you ever healed in ffxiv (or similar games) that 50 person squad (for example) would be split into about 5 parties with 1 to 3 healers each party and you'll mostly be focusing on your tank for direct heals and just throwing an aoe-regen on your dps since they shouldn't be taking any damage anyway unless it's a raidwide damage phase where you aoe-heal (but for a large radius).　

if it ever happened in gw2 (which is very unlikely, and i don't mind it not happening)

you wouldn't have 50 or 49 players of the squad lumping into party 1, commanders would definitely recruit a minimum amount of tanks and healers and split the whole squad into parties. but yeah if it happened then i'll finally roll a healer class as i mentioned in my first reply to this thread

There's something very satisfying about outhealing tempest as a shout warrior. The use of blast finishers is what makes GW2 so unique. The fact that it's up to individual players to be near the blast finishers is key.

[Ragebru.1397]

if it ever happened in gw2 (which is very unlikely, and i don't mind it not happening) you wouldn't have 50 or 49 players of the squad lumping into party 1, commanders would definitely recruit a minimum amount of tanks and healers and split the whole squad into parties. but yeah if it happened then i'll finally roll a healer class as i mentioned in my first reply to this thread

However, there is a trinity in this game- regardless of what people might think. You can heal pretty insane amounts of dmg. And tank mechanics are based off toughness

[Astyrah.4015]

@"jwhite.7012" said:However, there is a trinity in this game- regardless of what people might think. You can heal pretty insane amounts of dmg. And tank mechanics are based off toughness

and like my 2nd post to this thead (on the 2nd page), it's not the same kind of trinity as you see in ffxiv or wow. it's a unique kind of trinity that's brought about by the introduction of raids.

the boss focusing aggro on the "tank" based on toughness is mostly confined to raids so basically the roles can be narrowed down to "support" and "pure dps" unlike in other holy trinity mmorpgs, tanks/healer/dps applies to pretty much everywhere even in pvp

[Henry.5713]

Remember the good old 2012 duality of 4 warriors + 1 mesmer?

[Vayne.8563]

@"lil muffin.1250" said:first of all.. all the people who write "bring what back it wasn't ever here" b.s. YOU KNOW WHAT THE .... I'M TALKIN BOUT.

Secondly.Gw2 is fun.the combat is actually fun.the combat is shallow as kitten and kinda messy and all over the place and sure I might be a casual who spams skills. but there is nothing and i do mean nothing that really rewards you for becoming a great players.Now i'm cute with my mesmer blinking out of aoes and giving out quickeness to my friends around me, interupting and depleting boss block bars.but i think the game would be a bit more solid with more concrete systems.its all too floaty.from the high numbers of bleeds. to the shortness of boons. everything seems less impactful because it only last for a few moments.I think the trinity allows game designers the ability to create characters that feel super unique.

Gw2 is the only game i play every single proffession.Because honestly they all kind of feel the same.The gameplay is the same.they have different mechanics but they all do the same thing.

I've been playing wow and boy do the classes really feel special.Being a Druid in the game means something.Being a warrior feels like being a warrior.Mages- feel vulnerable but powerful.Paladins feel like they can fight a million mobsdemon hunters feeel like they are actually equipped to hunt.

In gw2 a mesmer and a ranger both kinda feel llike pew pew dodge doge pew pew

Played WoW. Hated it. Tired of being a coatrack for greatness. More about stats than skill.

Nothing that rewards you for being good? How about being able to clear fractals much much faster than another group, so more gold per hour. Sure people can slug their way through T4 fractals and get the reward. But being better means more gold per hour, which means more reward. I'm not sure how that's not an incentive to people.

I used to run dungeons with groups that would take an hour to clear Arah, than ran those same dungeons in fifteen minutes. Some would say that's a reward in and of itself.

[FrostSpectre.4198]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The assumption of the OP is wrong ... introducing an artificial form of team structure like holy trinity will not introduce strategy to gaming. If anything, it will lock you in more.

^Completelly agree with that

For PVE i would say make mobs harder :), mobs dodge, condi cleanse, block, etc this would make players try to work as a team to negate those effects thats where the game dificulty lacks and why some players loose the feelign of doing something cause here is just pure DPS spam acomplishment...Mobs here are just 2-3 autos and they die :) its kinda welcome to the age of low IQ pve... then players get frightned to any small increase of dificulty pve m8 add from raid or the other smaller raids thing.

This is what I've been suggesting long time. Mostly the core GW2 requires updates in the hostile mob designs, since the current design is easy to abuse. Combat is pretty much just Berserker maximum DPS builds, which makes condition DPS, control and support builds useless.

New areas offer better combat, but they tend to recycle core mobs, and usually there where core mobs exist, players use some bot or AFK farming.However I doubt they're ever updated, maybe at the end of GW2 life time.

The GW2 holy trinity is DPS-Control-Support and it will remain as such.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Bring back pure zerker scholar warrior meta

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@FrostSpectre.4198 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:The assumption of the OP is wrong ... introducing an artificial form of team structure like holy trinity will not introduce strategy to gaming. If anything, it will lock you in more.

^Completelly agree with that

For PVE i would say make mobs harder :), mobs dodge, condi cleanse, block, etc this would make players try to work as a team to negate those effects thats where the game dificulty lacks and why some players loose the feelign of doing something cause here is just pure DPS spam acomplishment...Mobs here are just 2-3 autos and they die :) its kinda welcome to the age of low IQ pve... then players get frightned to any small increase of dificulty pve m8 add from raid or the other smaller raids thing.

This is what I've been suggesting long time. Mostly the core GW2 requires updates in the hostile mob designs, since the current design is easy to abuse. Combat is pretty much just Berserker maximum DPS builds, which makes condition DPS, control and support builds useless.

New areas offer better combat, but they tend to recycle core mobs, and usually there where core mobs exist, players use some bot or AFK farming.However I doubt they're ever updated, maybe at the end of GW2 life time.

The GW2 holy trinity is DPS-Control-Support and it will remain as such.

No gw 2 was good dps , mid dps , low dps

[yann.1946]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:If it's hogwash, then why couldn't they figure out a way to design compelling encounters without introducing pseudo tanks and healers?

They probably could, but everyone (both raiders and devs) is so locked to the old raiding model that it was easier to just try to ape the original design.

Notice, that the holy trinity is something that wasn't created due to the superiority of said system, but purely due to original AI in RPG games being so dumb it was easy to exploit it. And the reasons why it remained even after that constraint no longer applied, was because:

• it was easier for devs, since they didn't need to bother devising actually
  truly
  engaging encounters
• it was something players were already used to, and expected to happen
• it made things
  easier
  for players, because it significantly reduced teamwork requirements, reducing pressure on individual players by allowing players to deal with only one role at a time.

Adding to this, their are actual raids without the trinity. My favorite raid bos Matthias has no build in trinity (in the sense that their is no tank and using a healer is a matter of strategy, not a necessity as you can all be self reliant)

So, basically, Holy Trinity is such a succesful design, because it makes things simple for everyone involved. Which is ironic, seeing as it's mostly wanted in content where people actually say they want more complex stuff.

There's a reason why holy trinity doesn't work as well in pvp modes unless it is

massively

enforced by the system. It's because the opponents are not so dumb as mobs are.

And why would you want to play a game that does that rather than a game that builds from the ground up with that in mind?Oh, that was a weird decision all right. I just suspect that if they made encounters that

truly

utilized the original combat system and design to the fullest, the encounters would have ended way too hard even for many raiders. And raids would have ended dead on arrival.

[yann.1946]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:How can GW2 bring back the holy trinity when the game was practically based on the lack thereof? No. Please enjoy your trinity in the many other MMOs where it is already well in place.

How could they bring raids in when the game wasn't designed for it? Oh wait they did and then they died a horrible death with so few of the community actually bothering to care or do them.Exactly. They died a horrible death, proving that they truly weren't a good fit for the game.

Thats an argument of consequence, not really a good way to go their. Their have been multiple reasons stated which lead to the decline in raid popularity, adding the fact that raids where originally claimed to be more popular then expected (ofcourse the locking of mastery points could be a reason for this).

As such i don't think claiming that they where obviously a bad fit based merely on the outcome is not really acurate.

[yann.1946]

@jwhite.7012 said:

if it ever happened in gw2 (which is very unlikely, and i don't mind it not happening)

you wouldn't have 50 or 49 players of the squad lumping into party 1, commanders would definitely recruit a minimum amount of tanks and healers and split the whole squad into parties. but yeah if it happened then i'll finally roll a healer class as i mentioned in my first reply to this thread

However, there is a trinity in this game- regardless of what people might think. You can heal pretty insane amounts of dmg. And tank mechanics are based off toughness

But thats kind of false, Not all tank mechanics are thoughness based and the fact that you can build an healer doesn't suddenly mean their is a holy trinity in the game.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

Trinity is for people who don't have the skill to manage all facets of a character, dps, tank, heal. It is an antiquated gaming system that instantly brings out the very worst in people and promotes elitism. Not to mention the idiotic nonsense of waiting around to fill roles most people don't like to play or shelling out gold to those who do play tank or healer. You want trinity, go play it in the dozen games that promote the junk it doesn't need to show it's ugly head here, thanks.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:Trinity is for people who don't have the skill to manage all facets of a character, dps, tank, heal. It is an antiquated gaming system that instantly brings out the very worst in people and promotes elitism. Not to mention the idiotic nonsense of waiting around to fill roles most people don't like to play or shelling out gold to those who do play tank or healer. You want trinity, go play it in the dozen games that promote the junk it doesn't need to show it's ugly head here, thanks.

Solution to this is obvius remove all support skills in a way you are on responsible for your own buffs and dps and tank and heals this way we can be better as you cant heal others or buff others through fields or blasting each one must blast their own field heal themself. Then we need to adjust instanced content to promote less team based role play instead on individual play there each player only have to care of their own performance and buffs(solo raids are needed for me and many others)

[Astralporing.1957]

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:Trinity is for people who don't have the skill to manage all facets of a character, dps, tank, heal. It is an antiquated gaming system that instantly brings out the very worst in people and promotes elitism. Not to mention the idiotic nonsense of waiting around to fill roles most people don't like to play or shelling out gold to those who do play tank or healer. You want trinity, go play it in the dozen games that promote the junk it doesn't need to show it's ugly head here, thanks.

Solution to this is obvius remove all support skills in a way you are on responsible for your own buffs and dps and tank and heals this way we can be better as you cant heal others or buff others through fields or blasting each one must blast their own field heal themself. Then we need to adjust instanced content to promote less team based role play instead on individual play there each player only have to care of their own performance and buffs(solo raids are needed for me and many others)That's the original idea behind GW2, yes. In the end however, it turned out that there are several problems tied to it:

1. It requires people to be generally more skilled (which leads to the next point)
2. In general, people are
   not
   getting better. They simply stop playing content if they are not good enough for it. The amount of players willing to actually self-improve is relatively small
3. Many out of players willing to self-improve and/or good enough to play in that type of game are also players that happen to be quite interested in the group/teamwork based content.As a result, you get a game that is meant for a small niche - it might be a genius idea when aimed at a relatively small target group, but as an AAA game, aimed at wider populace, it fails completely.

[AliamRationem.5172]

@Astyrah.4015 said:

@"jwhite.7012" said:However, there is a trinity in this game- regardless of what people might think. You can heal pretty insane amounts of dmg. And tank mechanics are based off toughness

and like my 2nd post to this thead (on the 2nd page), it's not the same kind of trinity as you see in ffxiv or wow. it's a unique kind of trinity that's brought about by the introduction of raids.

the boss focusing aggro on the "tank" based on toughness is

mostly

confined to raids so basically the roles can be narrowed down to "support" and "pure dps" unlike in other holy trinity mmorpgs, tanks/healer/dps applies to pretty much everywhere even in pvp

It's not really "trinity" and it isn't very unique either. It's simply what you get when a game that removes the trinity and replaces it with nothing new (dps/support is not a role unique to GW2 and exists in all trinity games as well) decides they can't design compelling raid encounters without going at least somewhat trinity. Nobody should be surprised that it feels lackluster compared to the designs it attempts to mimic without fully committing to.

GW2's non-trinity design works great for open world casual cooperation. It's good for forming pickup groups with whatever you have available and playing through easy-to-moderately difficult content. No waiting around for an hour to find a group because nobody wants to tank! But it's lacking the tools for challenging organized group play. Many of the nuances that exist in high level trinity raiding/dungeons are simply missing here and nothing replaces them. It's still fun to play because GW2 combat is generally very enjoyable, but I don't see how people convince themselves that non-trinity is a virtue for organized group content.

[Ragebru.1397]

GW2's non-trinity design works great for open world casual cooperation. It's good for forming pickup groups with whatever you have available and playing through easy-to-moderately difficult content. No waiting around for an hour to find a group because nobody wants to tank! But it's lacking the tools for challenging organized group play.

What tools would that be exactly? I haven't played every mmo in existence- so what other MMO's uses finishers for healing/support/dmg?

[AliamRationem.5172]

@"jwhite.7012" said:

GW2's non-trinity design works great for open world casual cooperation. It's good for forming pickup groups with whatever you have available and playing through easy-to-moderately difficult content. No waiting around for an hour to find a group because nobody wants to tank! But it's lacking the tools for challenging organized group play.

What tools would that be exactly? I haven't played every mmo in existence- so what other MMO's uses finishers for healing/support/dmg?

The UI of a trinity game allows for targeted healing and other effects that involve actually choosing the target rather than just being close to them. This allows for gameplay that is more varied than just stacking in a pile or a few piles, although trinity games obviously have area effects as well. It would be difficult in GW2's system to design attacks that are not always intended to be completely avoided, yet are strong enough to kill the player and require a fast, targeted response from an ally.

A lot of the nuances of trinity gameplay like that are simply missing here, but they haven't added anything new to replace what was taken away. GW2 group content feels like they just took out tanks and healers and called it a day. I'm not sure what they could have replaced it with, but perhaps that's the reason the trinity is so "holy", right?

[Ragebru.1397]

The UI of a trinity game allows for targeted healing and other effects that involve actually choosing the target rather than just being close to them. This allows for gameplay that is more varied than just stacking in a pile or a few piles, although trinity games obviously have area effects as well. It would be difficult in GW2's system to design attacks that are not always intended to be completely avoided, yet are strong enough to kill the player and require a fast, targeted response from an ally.

You actually don't have to be near your allies to heal them lol.. ele can dish out great heals at range, so can FB, Druid, even renegade. All of those have pretty high burst healing capabilities. Stacking is more for the boons, since boon sharing is crucial. However, that is not specific to healing. Especially considering that most of the boons come from the dps.

[Ragebru.1397]

A lot of the nuances of trinity gameplay like that are simply missing here, but they haven't added anything new to replace what was taken away. GW2 group content feels like they just took out tanks and healers and called it a day. I'm not sure what they could have replaced it with, but perhaps that's the reason the trinity is so "holy", right?

Also, I actually like being able to focus on playing the field- instead of staring at a raid/squad box to left click players to heal them. Makes it much more involved. Which is why it's much easier to heal AND dps at the same time.

[Pyv.3510]

I really like Gw2 because it doesnt have this holy trinity of tank - healer - dps.Also, the dodge mechanic makes some healing unnessecary, same goes for aegis. I hope they keep this system, there's a place for tanks in raids already and not one needed in fractals. You can do Fractal Dailies without having to look for healers or tanks (which are both usually rare in other mmo's) thanks to that system.