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[Theory] The real reason why they left... [SPOILERS]


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TL;DR - Read the BoldJust a heads up, spoilers for the six leaving storyline....

Ok, I've seen this mentioned on the forums, and I'm sorry if this has been delved pretty deeply in another thread, but here's my crack at attempting to resolve why this storyline was so all over the place in PoF regarding the six deities.

Theory: ANet is in the works to replace the original pantheon with a new pantheon.

Reasons: First and foremost, why get rid of them? Not lorewise, but just in general for storytelling, it's a bad move imo. You have really established characters and history within the pantheon - Grenth v. Dwayna holiday event, the pvp mists area / Balths whole deal, Lyssa stepping in on the Abbadon story (along with Grenth and his disciple), statues galore - etc etc. There's 2 reasons why I can think that they want to get rid of the pantheon - 1. Just narrow focus on the dragons / replacements for the dragons and steer away from a 'human-centric' story (GW1 only playable race were humans, made sense to have human deities), or 2. To give another story after they replace the dragons - replace the deities to represent ALL races.

Evidence: So the evidence for this is pretty thin, basically it's just some tie-ins to Elona from GW1 and Kormir as well as a very cryptic message a NPC states in Kormir's library. Basically the librarian says something along the lines of "Oh yeah, it's neat how a mortal became a deity, I wonder if there will be a new six in the future by repeating this process..." It could totally be throwaway dialogue, but as soon as I read that I was like - Oh, so that's why they're getting rid of the six, to make new ones.

Personally, here's what I think they're going to do - TINFOIL HAT THEORY TIME!!! I think they're already pushing for candidates - mostly tragic characters. Rytlock for war (obviously) - either Rytlock or Braham, Kasmeer for Lyssa's seat (tragic = she abandons those she loves to help everyone much like the og six did to her) - either her or Queen Jennah, I don't have many other guesses on Dwayna, Melandru (a sylvari of some sort I would figure... maybe the Pale Mother), Grenth, or Kormir.

The only thing that I think could possibly turn this theory sideways is that the writers are going to use the dragon reps as a new pantheon. That's possible, but I don't think it'd make much sense. Just going to throw that out there as another possible rep for the six.

So, those are my thoughts on this crazy turn around plot twist. Honestly, it doesn't make any sense for the six to abandon the humans. In the past, the six TOOK the humans with them, there's no reason for them not to do the same here except for the fact that these new writers want to do their own thing.

What do you think? Who do you think would replace the og six? Do you have your own theory as to why the writers took such a drastic turn?

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We already know why the 6 are leaving Tyria and the humans behind...it's to find a new world to cultivate BEFORE returning to Tyria to move the humans from the doomed world they currently inhabit. Just because they return to grab their charges does not mean they return to Tyria itself, only to get the humans and move them to what ever new world they have found and nurtured to take the place of Tyria.

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@Zaklex.6308 said:We already know why the 6 are leaving Tyria and the humans behind...it's to find a new world to cultivate BEFORE returning to Tyria to move the humans from the doomed world they currently inhabit. Just because they return to grab their charges does not mean they return to Tyria itself, only to get the humans and move them to what ever new world they have found and nurtured to take the place of Tyria.

Yeah I gotta say, I didn't see that anywhere in the dialogue unless I'm missing some sort of written lore I didn't read. Kormir straight up says they're leaving only to prevent the destruction of Tyria - not to make a way for the humans on another place.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth > The full dialogue.

In either case, even if they are leaving to prepare a new place - they're still abandoning the humans in the meantime.

Sorry, but I gotta disagree here. Thanks for the insight though :D

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@"Forgotten Legend.9281" said:Do the LOST LORE achievements in each of the PoF maps. after you complete each cheevo, a book will appear in your inventory, which will then be read TO you in game after double clicking and selecting which part(s) to read. some of them are very interesting, especially the one recounting why the human gods left.

Thanks for the link, but it's still leaving a huge platform open to be filled.

"Reluctantly, the gods withdrew. They had to find new soil to tend, that their faithful might someday see the full, resplendent bloom of this most glorious garden. Praise Kormir!" https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Garden_of_the_Gods

I still think the writers are planning for a new pantheon, despite this lore. First of all, "might" someday see - sure, could be texture given to the writing, but we don't know how long it'll last (could be thousands of years or days) and the humans are still abandoned on a planet that is on the brink of destruction. Sure, the pantheon could be trusting the humans will work it out, or even know they will - but that's not written. What's written is - they left, they might be back, and now there's a huge absence in their place. Thanks for the info :D

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It doesn't make much sense to make a new pantheon. Part of the reason the gods became less important is because the gods only care for the humans, and less so for the rest of the races. It'd be a little unfair for one race to have 6 powerful beings on their side, while you have the charr who want to kill the gods, asura who have an ultimate equation as their religion, and the sylvari who have barely had a chance to make any beliefs at all. If the Six are going to be replaced, it would probably need to be one that all races can worship, and that's pretty hard with the other cultures made. I think there are still stories that can be told with the gods, and they aren't necessarily gone forever.

@Forgotten Legend.9281 I don't know how reliable that story is overall. It seems to be written from the viewpoint of a devotee, who might be putting his own hopes and dreams into the writing. I wouldn't put that much stock into it.

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The idea of replacing the pantheon with something more "multiracial friendly" is... bad. Just. Bad.

Primarily because it would require either villainizing or victimizing all or almost all gods. Aside from the fact that would be repetitive storytelling (would be the third time they've done such by that point, and that's on the basis of doing such to the whole pantheon at once), it's bad writing because it diminishes the title "god". While any polytheistic pantheon is not going to be omnipotent/omniscient, they will still be exceptionally powerful and killing them - either as villains or victims - should be a supremely rare thing (this lack of rare deaths is also an issue with the Elder Dragon plot - with GW2 as a whole, really, because once we're killing gods and eldritch entities left and right, what is there to pose a real threat?).

And villainizing any god at this point requires rewriting Guild Wars' lore to exponential levels. Balthazar's pure-black-villainizing was bad enough, but to do such to Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna, Kormir, or Grenth? They're all pure good individuals (well, Grenth has his shades of gray but he's still a good guy).

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Thanks for the interesting responses. First of all, I'm definitely not saying it's good writing. I honestly think the entire lore in GW2 is pretty terrible compared to GW1. I thought the stories had more flavor and offered a more mystical sort of feel. The lore in GW2 just sort of stomped on it. So for sure, this is bad writing, but in general, I still think that's where they're headed just from the little crumbs I've been seeing throughout the story.

Also, they pretty already villainized the pantheon. They abandoned their 'creations.' I don't care what sort of good or bad reason for it, that's horrible. In GW1 they went into the mists, but they still had a hand in guiding the humans though avatars, ascension, etc. In GW2, the humans are on the brink of just losing everything, the elder dragons are about to destroy the world, and they just bounce b/c they're going to make it worse? Yeah, that's terrible.

I'm not looking at this in the perspective of how it works with the lore, I'm looking at it as a reader of a book seeing some foreshadowing, you know blue flower growing on the wall, the valonqar will wring your white neck - (fyi, Game of Thrones prophecies). I don't think the pantheon are required, I just think this is what the writers are going to do. I'm reading between the lines here people, and I'm probably wrong, but everytime I saw references to the commander's companions, everything with the pantheon leaving and their dialogue, as well as little easter eggs with NPCs - kinda seems like the writers are going that way.

Just a reminder - this is a TINFOIL HAT THEORY - it's just me pointing stuff out that I think makes sense with what I'm reading. The evidence is thinner than toilet paper, but it's entertaining to throw out conspiracy theories ;)

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It's just like the Christan God. Human pray to the Human Gods, they sometimes receive what they are praying for, sometimes they don't. At the beginning during the fight against the Herald of Balthazar one of villagers prayed to Kormir to save him and his fellows, she didn't hear, but when Kasmeer was praying for (we do not know exactly she was praying for), but it looked like she received the answer, help by her plea.

Also Christans believe the God listenes to us all, but sometimes He doesn't want to answer, because they believe the God knows better than mortals, Christans also believe the God will prepare the better place for all the Humans in a better world.

So weird, but the Gods in GW are very similar to the Christan God, but the Human Gods can be replaced, they can be killed, they are 6 (now 5), but it shows a different side of the philosphy that in our real world there rule some unstoppable powers, the powers that the Christan God may unite, God may be known us somebody cruel, horrible, unpredictible, but in other way He is calm as the wind, full of love and He is harmony in fact. Same Human Gods in GW aren't super awesome, but they cannot be told to be bad, even Balthazar wasn't bad, he just made a terrible mistake, he just couldn't agree with that what the others were about to do.

Also one of the journal (I accidentaly read) says that the gods want to seek... A better place for the Humans! Better place without Dragons, the world full of gods' magic! The world totally over any imagination, probably with new threads too, but they gods might interfere themselves at last.

This has the real connection to Christianity. Same Sylvari are really similar to Christians, the gods are pretty similar to the God.

I believe this idea of making Balthazar bad was a bad decision, and some aspects of the story of Gods vs Balthazar don't make any sense... To me Balthazar is still alive, and it's weird he, who was thousands year old didn't understand he is going to fight for a better future for the Gods and Humans somewhere else.

Ree Soesbee created the whole story of Sylvari, I'd not be surprised if she had something to do with the Gods, how they behave etc, because it's much as her.

It's my view and I can see this leaving has a lot of sense if you see this as the Christian. :)

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The gods leave for a simple reason, they are made of magic and the dragons which awakened are starving for magic. They don't want to be eaten so they are looking elsewhere for the time being.

Seriously, if there was a big bad hungry beast that was looking at me like I was it's meal, I'd probably try my luck somewhere else.

There could also be a theory about the fact that the god are a facet of the dragons and that without even knowing it we already killed melandru (mordremoth) and grenth (zaithan). And the god leaving could be a bad excuse to allow them to go wild in their dragon form. Well nothing say that gods can't lie right?

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As far as we can tell, the Gods aren't interesting to the Elder Dragons. Balthazar traveled right in front of Primordus, stopped to set up some barriers and set up his machine to start it, and then flipped the switch without ever having Primordus act against him. In his weakened state, Primordus could have munched down on a tasty magical treat if he had wanted, but he never did.

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you are right that this is a move away from the human centric story. if the gods return, humans will be OP.

but there won't be a new god. the reason why the god left is not just because they don't want to fight, but also that they don't want to be replaced, you can't kill them and take their power if they ain't here, thus they are preserved in their own realm. rather, the direction the story is going toward is about 'taming the dragons' and replacing them with beings that are not entirely "force of nature", so magic can use by lesser beings. basically the story which POF tries to setup, is not new gods, but new dragons... to complete what the forgotten failed to do... however this is only what the forgotten tries to do, it may not be possible at all. prehaps the dragons can never be tamed, and the only way for the races to survive is to abandon all form of magic to drive the dragons into eternal sleep.

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@Narcemus.1348 said:As far as we can tell, the Gods aren't interesting to the Elder Dragons. Balthazar traveled right in front of Primordus, stopped to set up some barriers and set up his machine to start it, and then flipped the switch without ever having Primordus act against him. In his weakened state, Primordus could have munched down on a tasty magical treat if he had wanted, but he never did.

By this point Balthazar is no longer divine, something we know because he does not cause the blindness debuff like Kormir does. So arguably Primordus would have simply viewed Balthazar as something beneath its interest. Balthazar also was stealing dragon and bloodstone magic, so Primordus may well have not considered him worth eating. From a non-lore perspective, Balthazar also had the fabled Plot Armour.

On the topic as a whole, Kormir never specifically stated where the Gods are going, just why they are leaving. It is tempting to believe the Garden of the Gods book in that they're looking for a new world but if so, why leave their domains in the mists? Can the dragons attack them in the mists? The Garden of the Gods book is also written by Kormir's follower who claims Kormir told him all this, which is something we cannot verify and leaves it is an unreliable source until we hear otherwise.

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I think there some internal struggle that they had before they left after dealing with balth which they all agreed to go to another world with an unknown agenda. They might return if the dragon problem is dealt with and might even try to resume their original position.

A hare brained thought of mine is that they left after attracting some unwanted alien attention and so they decided to pack their bags and gave a bs reason why they are leaving which might somewhat be true since they are magical beings or something with magic that is and isn't tangible (4 dimension composed bodies?) and the dragons can interact with magic at a fine level if not anything else. There might be more beings or powerful ones out there.

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@Arden.7480 said:So weird, but the Gods in GW are very similar to the Christan God...

They are nothing alike,

  • The Christian God supposedly forbid magic and worshiping other Gods. They are apparently all-knowing, and all-powerful.
  • The Human Gods supposedly gave humans magic, and allowed polytheism to flourish. They are apparently not all-knowing, and not all-powerful.
  • Christianity mourns the death of Jesus.
  • Path of Fire celebrates the death of Balthazar.

The Human Gods in Gw2 were based on Greek mythology. In both lores there is/are:

  • powerful entities with limited abilities that granted humans the use of magic
  • an obsession with hospitality,
  • an Underworld where all the dead go, and heroes venture
  • a realm of torment connected to the Underworld via a pit that serves as the prison for the Titans and other evils.
  • domains can be shuffled around
  • the domains of healing (wounds and sickness), warmth, life, nature, earth, growth, beauty, illusion, order, spirit and truth are currently assigned to Goddesses
  • the domains of darkness, death, ice, war, and fire are currently assigned to Gods

The major difference between the pantheons, besides the chronology or incest, is that air, water and courage are reversed.

  • Water and air should be with a God. Courage should be with a Goddess.
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