Should they add a DPS meter? - [Merged]

[kharmin.7683]

@uberkingkong.8041 said:Just because they monetized build templates, its not same as DPS CHECK.Hope you're right.

[Obtena.7952]

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:@uberkingkong.8041

You should think the other way around : If Anet can't monetize dps meter, why would they care to develop it?

This exactly ... why would Anet even THINK to put a feature like this in the game in the first place? It's a business,.

[Kichwas.7152]

Guild Wars 2 often looks like a game the devs have developed with one sole meta in mind: maximize DPS and do nothing else. Basically stack 10 Firebrands and go to town.

It's not, but it can look that way because... it's pretty close to that and in some past patches it actually has been that (the 'Berserker gear only' days before HoT came out for example).

FFXIV has the same problem... and the popular DPS meter and DPS checking website over there reinforce this... NOT with the community, but more dangerously with the devs... the Devs have been 'trained' by the community to keep making fight more and more about maximizing DPS and sliding everything else off the table. The importance of buff managing, CCing, debuff managing, and so on have over time been pushed down in favor of making every class do more DPS... even healers and tanks...

The DPS meter there, officially is not allowed. Some believe it can get you banned, but the devs have been 'caught' streaming while using it and a careful read of the TOS doesn't actually refer to things like it. No player has ever been banned for using it - many have been banned for acting like jerks with the data they got by using it... a key difference...

Make a DPS meter here official, and all pretense that there is any class in this game other than Firebrand would... go away...

The devs would just buff up the raw DPS of every class they wanted folks playing, and ignore the others, and start simplifying fights down to DPS checks and nothing else...

We're extremely close to that 'game design broken' line, but not yet over it... In fact I would argue that the reason the 'dungeons' never happened past the launch day set was because they did break that line and the team behind them didn't know how to fix it... This is why the pre-HoT meta used to ONLY be stack in one spot with berserker gear and ignore all mechanics...

• The last thing we want to do is put in a tool that encourages the dev team to jump the last shark left in the line...

I love FFXIV as much as this game, but as another MMO with so similar an issue - it also looks like a warning call to how to break the design here. FFXIV is only barely saved by having a trinity so you can pretend it's not just a one-trick-pony MMO... but this game doesn't have that 'illusion' to mask flaws in it's design... going down the same path FFXIV did would break things here.

[uberkingkong.8041]

@"Kichwas.7152" said:Guild Wars 2 often looks like a game the devs have developed with one sole meta in mind: maximize DPS and do nothing else. Basically stack 10 Firebrands and go to town.

It's not, but it can look that way because... it's pretty close to that and in some past patches it actually has been that (the 'Berserker gear only' days before HoT came out for example).

FFXIV has the same problem... and the popular DPS meter and DPS checking website over there reinforce this... NOT with the community, but more dangerously with the devs... the Devs have been 'trained' by the community to keep making fight more and more about maximizing DPS and sliding everything else off the table. The importance of buff managing, CCing, debuff managing, and so on have over time been pushed down in favor of making every class do more DPS... even healers and tanks...

The DPS meter there, officially is not allowed. Some believe it can get you banned, but the devs have been 'caught' streaming while using it and a careful read of the TOS doesn't actually refer to things like it. No player has ever been banned for using it - many have been banned for acting like jerks with the data they got by using it... a key difference...

Make a DPS meter here official, and all pretense that there is any class in this game other than Firebrand would... go away...

The devs would just buff up the raw DPS of every class they wanted folks playing, and ignore the others, and start simplifying fights down to DPS checks and nothing else...

We're extremely close to that 'game design broken' line, but not yet over it... In fact I would argue that the reason the 'dungeons' never happened past the launch day set was because they did break that line and the team behind them didn't know how to fix it... This is why the pre-HoT meta used to ONLY be stack in one spot with berserker gear and ignore all mechanics...

• The last thing we want to do is put in a tool that encourages the dev team to jump the last shark left in the line...

I love FFXIV as much as this game, but as another MMO with so similar an issue - it also looks like a warning call to how to break the design here. FFXIV is only barely saved by having a trinity so you can pretend it's not just a one-trick-pony MMO... but this game doesn't have that 'illusion' to mask flaws in it's design... going down the same path FFXIV did would break things here.

Yep, follows traditional path of other MMORPGs.new and new stuff... Tanky, and DPS checks.

They could make a raid where you gotta avoid stuff for 30 seconds every minute which is hard, but they'd rather give this thing a buttload of hp, and DPS checks otherwise everyone dies.With their current motto, DPS CHECKS are needed.The casuals INTERESTED in raiding need it most, and those are the ones not downloading arcdps. Can't do the DPS, outta here you go.

Yes, 10 firebrands, back in days 4 warriors 1 mesmer. speedruns.

This game just as bad as other games, yes, they fall into same MMORPG traps too. Thats why I made a thread calledhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/114461/new-expansion-worries#latest

Everybody focused on "new expansion yay", nobody realizes what new expansion brings to MMORPG games. saturation. About a couple months after new expansion y'all see......Y'all talking business too? More players more money. DPS checks get everyone to raiding level naturally because people more aware, I do this, my dps is high, I do this my dps is low. I know what to do now.You can dps decent, you can do any content.But 26 button openers, 19 button continuous button smashing....Tough to do decent DPS. People get lost in the 26 button opener, start doing useless but flashy skills.

....WE TALKIN BUSINESS THATS WHY, they gotta make $$$$.Meanwhile, World of Warcraft is KNOWN for HIGH playerbase, the highest.They aint known for WoW store.

[Atomos.7593]

Just going to add that I personally would rather see a feature that was heavily monetized added to the game, rather than not see any such feature added to the game at all. Of course, it would be better if it was not monetized though. The devs got to eat too.

[Astralporing.1957]

@uberkingkong.8041 said:

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:You should think the other way around : If Anet can't monetize dps meter, why would they care to develop it?

I think half full, I think people have good intentions.And i think that they are running a business, not a charity, so, of course they are doing it with the primary goal of getting our money. You'd be naive if you thought otherwise.

And the template system shows how far they are willing to go to get it. Just look at the design of it. It's clear that it was not designed to be useful (and then monetized as a consequence of some server constraints or whatever), but was designed around monetization first, with the hope that it would end up being useful (hint: that last part didn't really work all that well). Why would you think that with dps meter they would change their tune and do the exact opposite?

It does not require mass memory which costs money like build template does.Yes, the current system does require some memory, but only because it was designed with monetization in mind. It didn't have to look that way though. Just look at how it worked in GW1, where they had a much simpler system, not requiring any server resources, and yet still vastly superior to the current one.

They didn't have to monetize the template system. They didn't have to cripple it in order to be able to monetize it better. Yet, they did. And in the end template system is as much a QoL as a DPS meter. There's no reason to think they would treat one any different than the other. Sure, they don't have to treat them the same way, but at this point, from your side it's just a matter of faith that they would not go as far as doing something they have shown to be capable of doing already. In this matter i happen to not be as optimistic as you are. Years of observing how this game keeps changing left me very much a sceptic.

@Atomos.7593 said:Just going to add that I personally would rather see a feature that was heavily monetized added to the game, rather than not see any such feature added to the game at all. Of course, it would be better if it was not monetized though. The devs got to eat too.Personally, i'd rather not have seen the current template system added. It is mostly useless for me, costs way too much, and i can no longer use Arc templates (which were vastly superior). The whole system implementation, from my point of view, was a net loss. It wasn't positive, or even neutral at all.Considering that experience, i'd rather they stay well away from dps meters. I don't have any belief left that they'd make anything good out of it.

[Atomos.7593]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Just going to add that I personally would rather see a feature that was heavily monetized added to the game, rather than not see any such feature added to the game at all. Of course, it would be better if it was not monetized though. The devs got to eat too.Personally, i'd rather not have seen the current template system added. It is mostly useless for me, costs way too much, and i can no longer use Arc templates (which were vastly superior). The whole system implementation, from my point of view, was a net loss. It wasn't positive, or even neutral at all.Considering that experience, i'd rather they stay well away from dps meters. I don't have any belief left that they'd make anything good out of it.

That sounds like a problem that you have had with the implementation, which is a separate issue. Personally I haven't encountered any problems yet with the way the templates currently work. If the devs can make a functional dps meter with basic features I would be satisfied. I wouldn't need any advanced or special features.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Just going to add that I personally would rather see a feature that was heavily monetized added to the game, rather than not see any such feature added to the game at all. Of course, it would be better if it was not monetized though. The devs got to eat too.Personally, i'd rather not have seen the current template system added. It is mostly useless for me, costs way too much, and i can no longer use Arc templates (which were vastly superior). The whole system implementation, from my point of view, was a net loss. It wasn't positive, or even neutral at all.Considering that experience, i'd rather they stay well away from dps meters. I don't have any belief left that they'd make anything good out of it.

That sounds like a problem that you have had with the implementation, which is a separate issue.It's not a separate issue. It's very much a core of the problem. A badly implemented system that costs us an already well-working solution (even if that solution was a third-party implementation, not an ingame system) is a straight out loss - something

worse

than not having that system implemented at all. And having that loss be heavily overmonetized is just adding insult to the injury.

Personally I haven't encountered any problems yet with the way the templates currently work.Then you probably didn't have a need for a template system in the first place. It's not that this system has problems (it does have them, but let's leave it for another discussion). It's that it is way too limited to be of serious use for someone that truly needs it. Yes, even fully unlocked.And those limitations are a direct consequence of this system being designed primarily for monetization, not for QoL.

If the devs can make a functional dps meter with basic features I would be satisfied. I wouldn't need any advanced or special features.Remember, that them implementing an ingame dps meter would mean an end to ArcDPS development. As such, implementing a solution that would offer us less than Arc would be a loss. Especially if we'd need to pay for it.You might not need anything more than that basic functionality, but for many players that are actively using Arc, that basic functionality is one of its

least

important functions.

At this point i do not believe they could implement something that would even equal Arc, and i do not have faith in that system not getting monetized. As such, i'd rather they left things as they are.

[Atomos.7593]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Just going to add that I personally would rather see a feature that was heavily monetized added to the game, rather than not see any such feature added to the game at all. Of course, it would be better if it was not monetized though. The devs got to eat too.Personally, i'd rather not have seen the current template system added. It is mostly useless for me, costs way too much, and i can no longer use Arc templates (which were vastly superior). The whole system implementation, from my point of view, was a net loss. It wasn't positive, or even neutral at all.Considering that experience, i'd rather they stay well away from dps meters. I don't have any belief left that they'd make anything good out of it.

That sounds like a problem that you have had with the implementation, which is a separate issue.It's not a separate issue. It's very much a core of the problem. A badly implemented system that costs us an already well-working solution (even if that solution was a third-party implementation, not an ingame system) is a straight out loss - something

worse

than not having that system implemented at all. And having that loss be heavily overmonetized is just adding insult to the injury.

Personally I haven't encountered any problems yet with the way the templates currently work.Then you probably didn't have a need for a template system in the first place. It's not that this system has problems (it does have them, but let's leave it for another discussion). It's that it is way too limited to be of serious use for someone that truly needs it. Yes, even fully unlocked.And those limitations are a direct consequence of this system being designed primarily for monetization, not for QoL.

If the devs can make a functional dps meter with basic features I would be satisfied. I wouldn't need any advanced or special features.Remember, that them implementing an ingame dps meter would mean an end to ArcDPS development. As such, implementing a solution that would offer us less than Arc would be a loss. Especially if we'd need to pay for it.You might not need anything more than that basic functionality, but for many players that are actively using Arc, that basic functionality is one of its

least

important functions.

At this point i do not believe they could implement something that would even equal Arc, and i do not have faith in that system not getting monetized. As such, i'd rather they left things as they are.

I would rather not use any plugins, and I don't use them at the moment since I don't raid. I don't see any reason why they couldn't allow the plugin to also be used instead if some people find it better.

I am using templates for all of my characters. I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved, but the way it is right now I have found it to be perfectly functional for all of my needs.

[Darrack.4069]

DPS Meters are a cancer in any game.They promote bad game play where all folks do is mash buttons in an attempt to top a crappy list.In my many years of leading raids in numerous games i have found that those that strive to outdo their group to look good in numbers are the worst of all players.We should always reward those that take the time to watch the mechanics, be first to res a team mate, CC when needed at the expense of damage, DPS meters promote the opposite.

I banned any form of these awful add-ons from any guild i have ever run, it made us far more successful.

Be Safe

[Astralporing.1957]

@Atomos.7593 said:I would rather not use any plugins, and I don't use them at the moment since I don't raid. I don't see any reason why they couldn't allow the plugin to also be used instead if some people find it better.They disallowed Arc Templates the moment ingame solution was implemented. I'm quite sure the same would happen with dps meter if it ever were to be implemented. Especially if it got monetized (which i'm sure it would).

I am using templates for all of my characters. I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved, but the way it is right now I have found it to be perfectly functional for all of my needs.Because it is okay... with a casual approach to it. If you need anything more, though, it fails due to being way too limited in scope. 6 loadout slots per character and 18 template slots accountwide are nowhere close to being enough for anyone in serious need of a template system. And to even get that much you need to pay a ton of money first.Same with gear loadout - the system doesn't allow for using gear from inventory, you can use only gear from loadout slots. As such, 6 slots (4 of them paid) are, again, nowhere close to being enough. I mean, they are nice if you treat them as an inventory expansion, but it's an extremely limiting design choice if you consider their usefulness for a template system. And it even makes legendaries, with their stat-switching capability, to be a worse choice for that system than ascended gear. And a bit more annoying to use than they were before the system, even if you weren't using Arc Templates.If you do compare it with Arc Templates, that, coupled with legendary gear allowed you an easy access to practically unrestricted freedom of build choices, instead of just 2 (or up to 6 at best, if you decided to pay)...(... i could go on and non about the whole template system debacle, but let's just stop there, It's not a template system thread after all)

[TeeDavido.8729]

Pretty simple request that would make sense at this point imo. Cloud gaming is growing and I feel like this would be a good time to do so. I am using the Geforce Now cloud gaming service at the moment to play Guild Wars 2 and it would be a massive help to be able to use such addons built into the game, because it's not possible to install them through Geforce Now. Now I understand that a DPS meter might not be ingame by default from concerns of toxicity but I don't really see how that would be the problem since the toxicity is already there especially if someone doesn't have the dps meter addon installed already.

[Darrack.4069]

There's another thread on this one mate, but for me no thanks, it promotes bad game play.

Be Safe

[Darrack.4069]

@robertthebard.8150 said:

@TeeDavido.8729 said:

@Darrack.4069 said:There's another thread on this one mate, but for me no thanks, it promotes bad game play.

Be Safe

Ah didn't see it. First time being on the forums. Y it probably does. But it also feels bad when I just learned my rotation, did 20k DPS on a boss but when I asked if someone could tell me my DPS I was basically told to stop being an ***hole and download arcdps. At this point I guess I'll have to download Gw2 onto my laptop which is not something I wanted :/

Alternatively, you could just ignore them, it's what I'd do. I'm a staunch believer that 3rd party software doesn't belong in an MMO, and so I don't use it. I don't raise a fuss, since the dev's said it's ok, but I won't be using it, no matter how many expletives they throw my way.

This One has wisdom

Be Safe

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Darrack.4069 said:In my many years of leading raids in numerous games i have found that those that strive to outdo their group to look good in numbers are the worst of all players.We should always reward those that take the time to watch the mechanics, be first to res a team mate, CC when needed at the expense of damage, DPS meters promote the opposite.

Bold : you can see that with arcdps, that's even the main reason to use it in practice parties (even hardcore roster use it that way to improve their timer).Plus you can totally do the mecanics correctly while using it, this is not mutually exclusive (a player who fails mecas won't have a good dps btw).

Sure you can encounter players that would only look at dps and nothing else, but those ones are not the majority (i think), and usually not even good players.

[Atomos.7593]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:I would rather not use any plugins, and I don't use them at the moment since I don't raid. I don't see any reason why they couldn't allow the plugin to also be used instead if some people find it better.They disallowed Arc Templates the moment ingame solution was implemented. I'm quite sure the same would happen with dps meter if it ever were to be implemented. Especially if it got monetized (which i'm sure it would).

No idea exactly why they disallowed it, but I'm pretty sure they would have had a good reason other than supposedly trying to increase their revenue. It would actually take extra effort to go out and disallow plugins, and probably is not worth it financially unless there is some other reason to also disallow it. They are not some evil company that is out to make money in every possible way that they can, despite what the haters think. They are no better or worse than any other business.

If they wanted to disallow a dps meter, they could easily have done that for the plugin by now. I find it extremely unlikely that they would go out and do it once it is monetized, since it would require extra effort and be blatantly hurting their reputation.

I am using templates for all of my characters. I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved, but the way it is right now I have found it to be perfectly functional for all of my needs.Because it is okay... with a casual approach to it. If you need anything more, though, it fails due to being way too limited in scope. 6 loadout slots per character and 18 template slots accountwide are nowhere close to being enough for anyone in serious need of a template system. And to even get that much you need to pay a ton of money first.Same with gear loadout - the system doesn't allow for using gear from inventory, you can use only gear from loadout slots. As such, 6 slots (4 of them paid) are, again, nowhere close to being enough. I mean, they are nice if you treat them as an inventory expansion, but it's an extremely limiting design choice if you consider their usefulness for a

template

system. And it even makes legendaries, with their stat-switching capability, to be a

worse

choice for that system than ascended gear. And a bit more annoying to use than they were before the system, even if you weren't using Arc Templates.If you

do

compare it with Arc Templates, that, coupled with legendary gear allowed you an easy access to practically unrestricted freedom of build choices, instead of just 2 (or up to 6 at best, if you decided to pay)...(... i could go on and non about the whole template system debacle, but let's just stop there, It's not a template system thread after all)

Of course it's okay with a casual approach, which is what I am getting at. Just because it's not useful for you doesn't mean it's not useful. I find it very useful, especially since I don't have to use a plugin to have this feature now. Again, you are complaining about how it's currently implemented, which is not what the topic of this thread is about. I agree, let's not talk about how to improve templates because it's not the purpose of the original post.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Just going to add that I personally would rather see a feature that was heavily monetized added to the game, rather than not see any such feature added to the game at all. Of course, it would be better if it was not monetized though. The devs got to eat too.Personally, i'd rather not have seen the current template system added. It is mostly useless for me, costs way too much, and i can no longer use Arc templates (which were vastly superior). The whole system implementation, from my point of view, was a net loss. It wasn't positive, or even neutral at all.Considering that experience, i'd rather they stay well away from dps meters. I don't have any belief left that they'd make anything good out of it.

That sounds like a problem that you have had with the implementation, which is a separate issue.It's not a separate issue. It's very much a core of the problem. A badly implemented system that costs us an already well-working solution (even if that solution was a third-party implementation, not an ingame system) is a straight out loss - something

worse

than not having that system implemented at all. And having that loss be heavily overmonetized is just adding insult to the injury.

Personally I haven't encountered any problems yet with the way the templates currently work.Then you probably didn't have a need for a template system in the first place. It's not that this system has problems (it does have them, but let's leave it for another discussion). It's that it is way too limited to be of serious use for someone that truly needs it. Yes, even fully unlocked.And those limitations are a direct consequence of this system being designed primarily for monetization, not for QoL.

If the devs can make a functional dps meter with basic features I would be satisfied. I wouldn't need any advanced or special features.Remember, that them implementing an ingame dps meter would mean an end to ArcDPS development. As such, implementing a solution that would offer us less than Arc would be a loss. Especially if we'd need to pay for it.You might not need anything more than that basic functionality, but for many players that are actively using Arc, that basic functionality is one of its

least

important functions.

At this point i do not believe they could implement something that would even equal Arc, and i do not have faith in that system not getting monetized. As such, i'd rather they left things as they are.

I would rather not use any plugins, and I don't use them at the moment since I don't raid. I don't see any reason why they couldn't allow the plugin to also be used instead if some people find it better.

I am using templates for all of my characters. I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved, but the way it is right now I have found it to be perfectly functional for all of my needs.

As @Astralporing.1957 said, the "template" system (loadout is the right word) is ok for people that barely need it like if you don't use many builds (1 or 2 per character), don't have many characters, don't use legendary gears outside loadouts (i.e. not swapping with inventory or others char), don't really use revenant (build loadout still bugged as hell after one year)...That's a bit restrictive imo.And if you didn't know/use Arc templates before Anet release the current version, i totally understand that you like it (that's nice for you :) ). But for those who did, anet version is litteraly WORSE than nothing (i.e. leg and revenant issues).Thing is it was quite obvious at release that the loadout system was crippled on purpose to promote monetization (triple layers of it) first and quality of life after (Anet usually don't do that but here it is).

[Atomos.7593]

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Just going to add that I personally would rather see a feature that was heavily monetized added to the game, rather than not see any such feature added to the game at all. Of course, it would be better if it was not monetized though. The devs got to eat too.Personally, i'd rather not have seen the current template system added. It is mostly useless for me, costs way too much, and i can no longer use Arc templates (which were vastly superior). The whole system implementation, from my point of view, was a net loss. It wasn't positive, or even neutral at all.Considering that experience, i'd rather they stay well away from dps meters. I don't have any belief left that they'd make anything good out of it.

That sounds like a problem that you have had with the implementation, which is a separate issue.It's not a separate issue. It's very much a core of the problem. A badly implemented system that costs us an already well-working solution (even if that solution was a third-party implementation, not an ingame system) is a straight out loss - something

worse

than not having that system implemented at all. And having that loss be heavily overmonetized is just adding insult to the injury.

Personally I haven't encountered any problems yet with the way the templates currently work.Then you probably didn't have a need for a template system in the first place. It's not that this system has problems (it does have them, but let's leave it for another discussion). It's that it is way too limited to be of serious use for someone that truly needs it. Yes, even fully unlocked.And those limitations are a direct consequence of this system being designed primarily for monetization, not for QoL.

If the devs can make a functional dps meter with basic features I would be satisfied. I wouldn't need any advanced or special features.Remember, that them implementing an ingame dps meter would mean an end to ArcDPS development. As such, implementing a solution that would offer us less than Arc would be a loss. Especially if we'd need to pay for it.You might not need anything more than that basic functionality, but for many players that are actively using Arc, that basic functionality is one of its

least

important functions.

At this point i do not believe they could implement something that would even equal Arc, and i do not have faith in that system not getting monetized. As such, i'd rather they left things as they are.

I would rather not use any plugins, and I don't use them at the moment since I don't raid. I don't see any reason why they couldn't allow the plugin to also be used instead if some people find it better.

I am using templates for all of my characters. I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved, but the way it is right now I have found it to be perfectly functional for all of my needs.

As @Astralporing.1957 said, the "template" system (loadout is the right word) is ok for people that barely need it like if you don't use many builds (1 or 2 per character), don't have many characters, don't use legendary gears outside loadouts (i.e. not swapping with inventory or others char), don't really use revenant (build loadout still bugged as hell after one year)...That's a bit restrictive imo.And if you didn't know/use Arc templates before Anet release the current version, i totally understand that you like it (that's nice for you :) ). But for those who did, anet version is litteraly WORSE than nothing (i.e. leg and revenant issues).Thing is it was quite obvious at release that the loadout system was crippled on purpose to promote monetization (triple layers of it) first and quality of life after (Anet usually don't do that but here it is).

I don't know who exactly these raiders consider to be "casual" or don't need the template system. I use the template system a lot when switching builds between PvE and WvW (for example between CC and healing), so it's definitely useful for me and the purposes I require.

Nobody said that the current implementation was better than the plugin ;) . I highly doubt that it was crippled on purpose for monetization because it would require extra effort to actually do so. I have seen in other games, for instance, where plugins were disabled because they contained aspects that the devs considered detrimental to gameplay. It would probably help a little if you could think outside the box, instead of coming to the conclusion that they must only be out for money.

[kharmin.7683]

@TeeDavido.8729 said:

@Darrack.4069 said:There's another thread on this one mate, but for me no thanks, it promotes bad game play.

Be Safe

Ah didn't see it. First time being on the forums.Welcome to the forums!

Also note that there is a search function which would have found all of the DPS related threads. There are several. Unfortunately.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:I would rather not use any plugins, and I don't use them at the moment since I don't raid. I don't see any reason why they couldn't allow the plugin to also be used instead if some people find it better.They disallowed Arc Templates the moment ingame solution was implemented. I'm quite sure the same would happen with dps meter if it ever were to be implemented. Especially if it got monetized (which i'm sure it would).

No idea exactly why they disallowed it, but I'm pretty sure they would have had a good reason other than supposedly trying to increase their revenue. It would actually take extra effort to go out and disallow plugins, and probably is not worth it financially unless there is some other reason to also disallow it. They are not some evil company that is out to make money in every possible way that they can, despite what the haters think. They are no better or worse than any other business.

We don't say they are evil, but like @Obtena.7952 like to repeat it (:p <3), they are still a business. If the monetization was secondary they wouldn't implement it this way. For example they could have made real build templates without cutting it in 2 (the account version are templates but only 24 max), it doesn't take space cause it is just text file (and with chatcodes players can completely bypass it, so anet ones slots are meaningless). They could also made the unlocks account-wise (even with a higher price), so it could be reroll friendly like the rest of the game... (that's just few examples)

And we don't know who tells them to do it that way (it could be a demand from ncsoft)...

If they wanted to disallow a dps meter, they could easily have done that for the plugin by now. I find it extremely unlikely that they would go out and do it once it is monetized, since it would require extra effort and be blatantly hurting their reputation.

Well template implementation prove you wrong on this (and it is easy for them because arcdps developper is in contact with anet to be sure it is always tos compliant).

I am using templates for all of my characters. I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved, but the way it is right now I have found it to be perfectly functional for all of my needs.Because it is okay... with a casual approach to it. If you need anything more, though, it fails due to being way too limited in scope. 6 loadout slots per character and 18 template slots accountwide are nowhere close to being enough for anyone in serious need of a template system. And to even get that much you need to pay a ton of money first.Same with gear loadout - the system doesn't allow for using gear from inventory, you can use only gear from loadout slots. As such, 6 slots (4 of them paid) are, again, nowhere close to being enough. I mean, they are nice if you treat them as an inventory expansion, but it's an extremely limiting design choice if you consider their usefulness for a

template

system. And it even makes legendaries, with their stat-switching capability, to be a

worse

choice for that system than ascended gear. And a bit more annoying to use than they were before the system, even if you weren't using Arc Templates.If you

do

compare it with Arc Templates, that, coupled with legendary gear allowed you an easy access to practically unrestricted freedom of build choices, instead of just 2 (or up to 6 at best, if you decided to pay)...(... i could go on and non about the whole template system debacle, but let's just stop there, It's not a template system thread after all)

Of course it's okay with a casual approach, which is what I am getting at. Just because it's not useful for you doesn't mean it's not useful. I find it very useful, especially since I don't have to use a plugin to have this feature now. Again, you are complaining about how it's currently implemented, which is not what the topic of this thread is about. I agree, let's not talk about how to improve templates because it's not the purpose of the original post.

We also don't say it's not usefull for some people , we said it's ok/nice for those who don't really need a template system (like adding some inventory slots). Anet just seems to miss the target audience for this feature.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Just going to add that I personally would rather see a feature that was heavily monetized added to the game, rather than not see any such feature added to the game at all. Of course, it would be better if it was not monetized though. The devs got to eat too.Personally, i'd rather not have seen the current template system added. It is mostly useless for me, costs way too much, and i can no longer use Arc templates (which were vastly superior). The whole system implementation, from my point of view, was a net loss. It wasn't positive, or even neutral at all.Considering that experience, i'd rather they stay well away from dps meters. I don't have any belief left that they'd make anything good out of it.

That sounds like a problem that you have had with the implementation, which is a separate issue.It's not a separate issue. It's very much a core of the problem. A badly implemented system that costs us an already well-working solution (even if that solution was a third-party implementation, not an ingame system) is a straight out loss - something

worse

than not having that system implemented at all. And having that loss be heavily overmonetized is just adding insult to the injury.

Personally I haven't encountered any problems yet with the way the templates currently work.Then you probably didn't have a need for a template system in the first place. It's not that this system has problems (it does have them, but let's leave it for another discussion). It's that it is way too limited to be of serious use for someone that truly needs it. Yes, even fully unlocked.And those limitations are a direct consequence of this system being designed primarily for monetization, not for QoL.

If the devs can make a functional dps meter with basic features I would be satisfied. I wouldn't need any advanced or special features.Remember, that them implementing an ingame dps meter would mean an end to ArcDPS development. As such, implementing a solution that would offer us less than Arc would be a loss. Especially if we'd need to pay for it.You might not need anything more than that basic functionality, but for many players that are actively using Arc, that basic functionality is one of its

least

important functions.

At this point i do not believe they could implement something that would even equal Arc, and i do not have faith in that system not getting monetized. As such, i'd rather they left things as they are.

I would rather not use any plugins, and I don't use them at the moment since I don't raid. I don't see any reason why they couldn't allow the plugin to also be used instead if some people find it better.

I am using templates for all of my characters. I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved, but the way it is right now I have found it to be perfectly functional for all of my needs.

As @Astralporing.1957 said, the "template" system (loadout is the right word) is ok for people that barely need it like if you don't use many builds (1 or 2 per character), don't have many characters, don't use legendary gears outside loadouts (i.e. not swapping with inventory or others char), don't really use revenant (build loadout still bugged as hell after one year)...That's a bit restrictive imo.And if you didn't know/use Arc templates before Anet release the current version, i totally understand that you like it (that's nice for you :) ). But for those who did, anet version is litteraly WORSE than nothing (i.e. leg and revenant issues).Thing is it was quite obvious at release that the loadout system was crippled on purpose to promote monetization (triple layers of it) first and quality of life after (Anet usually don't do that but here it is).

I don't know who exactly these raiders consider to be "casual" or don't need the template system. I use the template system a lot when switching builds between PvE and WvW (for example between CC and healing), so it's definitely useful for me and the purposes I require.

Well maybe not casual, but how many builds (traits +gears) do you use with yours characters ?

Nobody said that the current implementation was better than the plugin ;) . I highly doubt that it was crippled on purpose for monetization because it would require extra effort to actually do so. I have seen in other games, for instance, where plugins were disabled because they contained aspects that the devs considered detrimental to gameplay.

And it is not the case here, Anet was totally fine with arctemplates for years (as i said the dev are in contact with anet) before releasing their own poor version (imo) and demand deltaconnected to stop it.

It would probably help a little if you could think outside the box, instead of coming to the conclusion that they must only be out for money.

And i could tell you exactly the same :)

Why would they ask arc templates to be disabled otherwise?

[Atomos.7593]

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:I would rather not use any plugins, and I don't use them at the moment since I don't raid. I don't see any reason why they couldn't allow the plugin to also be used instead if some people find it better.They disallowed Arc Templates the moment ingame solution was implemented. I'm quite sure the same would happen with dps meter if it ever were to be implemented. Especially if it got monetized (which i'm sure it would).

No idea exactly why they disallowed it, but I'm pretty sure they would have had a good reason other than supposedly trying to increase their revenue. It would actually take extra effort to go out and disallow plugins, and probably is not worth it financially unless there is some other reason to also disallow it. They are not some evil company that is out to make money in every possible way that they can, despite what the haters think. They are no better or worse than any other business.

We don't say they are evil, but like @Obtena.7952 like to repeat it (:p <3), they are still a business. If the monetization was secondary they wouldn't implement it this way. For example they could have made real build templates without cutting it in 2 (the account version are templates but only 24 max), it doesn't take space cause it is just text file i.e. (and with chatcodes players can completely bypass it, so anet ones slots are meaningless). They could also made the unlocks account-wise (even with a higher price), so it could be reroll friendly like the rest of the game... (that's just few examples)

And we don't know who tells them to do it that way (it could be a demand from ncsoft)...

Yes I agree they are a business and will act as such. Which is why it doesn't make much financial sense to spend development time in disallowing a plugin, unless it affects gameplay detrimentally or causes some other issue that the devs may think worthwhile addressing.

If they wanted to disallow a dps meter, they could easily have done that for the plugin by now. I find it extremely unlikely that they would go out and do it once it is monetized, since it would require extra effort and be blatantly hurting their reputation.

Well template implementation prove you wrong on this (and it is easy for them because arcdps developper is in contact with anet to be sure it is always tos compliant).

It hasn't proven anything wrong, because there are many reasons other than simply making money to disallow a plugin. I don't know anything about this arcdps developer and their relation with anet. I don't think the arcdps developer is perfect though, and there may be accidental mistakes made by the plugin developer or changes in opinion from anet.

I am using templates for all of my characters. I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved, but the way it is right now I have found it to be perfectly functional for all of my needs.Because it is okay... with a casual approach to it. If you need anything more, though, it fails due to being way too limited in scope. 6 loadout slots per character and 18 template slots accountwide are nowhere close to being enough for anyone in serious need of a template system. And to even get that much you need to pay a ton of money first.Same with gear loadout - the system doesn't allow for using gear from inventory, you can use only gear from loadout slots. As such, 6 slots (4 of them paid) are, again, nowhere close to being enough. I mean, they are nice if you treat them as an inventory expansion, but it's an extremely limiting design choice if you consider their usefulness for a

template

system. And it even makes legendaries, with their stat-switching capability, to be a

worse

choice for that system than ascended gear. And a bit more annoying to use than they were before the system, even if you weren't using Arc Templates.If you

do

compare it with Arc Templates, that, coupled with legendary gear allowed you an easy access to practically unrestricted freedom of build choices, instead of just 2 (or up to 6 at best, if you decided to pay)...(... i could go on and non about the whole template system debacle, but let's just stop there, It's not a template system thread after all)

Of course it's okay with a casual approach, which is what I am getting at. Just because it's not useful for you doesn't mean it's not useful. I find it very useful, especially since I don't have to use a plugin to have this feature now. Again, you are complaining about how it's currently implemented, which is not what the topic of this thread is about. I agree, let's not talk about how to improve templates because it's not the purpose of the original post.

We also don't say it's not usefull for some people , we said it's ok/nice for those who don't really need a template system (like adding some inventory slots). Anet just seems to miss the target audience for this feature.

Who said I don't really need a template system? Your so called target audience seems to be dictated by you and not the actual devs at anet.

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Atomos.7593 said:Just going to add that I personally would rather see a feature that was heavily monetized added to the game, rather than not see any such feature added to the game at all. Of course, it would be better if it was not monetized though. The devs got to eat too.Personally, i'd rather not have seen the current template system added. It is mostly useless for me, costs way too much, and i can no longer use Arc templates (which were vastly superior). The whole system implementation, from my point of view, was a net loss. It wasn't positive, or even neutral at all.Considering that experience, i'd rather they stay well away from dps meters. I don't have any belief left that they'd make anything good out of it.

That sounds like a problem that you have had with the implementation, which is a separate issue.It's not a separate issue. It's very much a core of the problem. A badly implemented system that costs us an already well-working solution (even if that solution was a third-party implementation, not an ingame system) is a straight out loss - something

worse

than not having that system implemented at all. And having that loss be heavily overmonetized is just adding insult to the injury.

Personally I haven't encountered any problems yet with the way the templates currently work.Then you probably didn't have a need for a template system in the first place. It's not that this system has problems (it does have them, but let's leave it for another discussion). It's that it is way too limited to be of serious use for someone that truly needs it. Yes, even fully unlocked.And those limitations are a direct consequence of this system being designed primarily for monetization, not for QoL.

If the devs can make a functional dps meter with basic features I would be satisfied. I wouldn't need any advanced or special features.Remember, that them implementing an ingame dps meter would mean an end to ArcDPS development. As such, implementing a solution that would offer us less than Arc would be a loss. Especially if we'd need to pay for it.You might not need anything more than that basic functionality, but for many players that are actively using Arc, that basic functionality is one of its

least

important functions.

At this point i do not believe they could implement something that would even equal Arc, and i do not have faith in that system not getting monetized. As such, i'd rather they left things as they are.

I would rather not use any plugins, and I don't use them at the moment since I don't raid. I don't see any reason why they couldn't allow the plugin to also be used instead if some people find it better.

I am using templates for all of my characters. I'm not saying the system couldn't be improved, but the way it is right now I have found it to be perfectly functional for all of my needs.

As @Astralporing.1957 said, the "template" system (loadout is the right word) is ok for people that barely need it like if you don't use many builds (1 or 2 per character), don't have many characters, don't use legendary gears outside loadouts (i.e. not swapping with inventory or others char), don't really use revenant (build loadout still bugged as hell after one year)...That's a bit restrictive imo.And if you didn't know/use Arc templates before Anet release the current version, i totally understand that you like it (that's nice for you :) ). But for those who did, anet version is litteraly WORSE than nothing (i.e. leg and revenant issues).Thing is it was quite obvious at release that the loadout system was crippled on purpose to promote monetization (triple layers of it) first and quality of life after (Anet usually don't do that but here it is).

I don't know who exactly these raiders consider to be "casual" or don't need the template system. I use the template system a lot when switching builds between PvE and WvW (for example between CC and healing), so it's definitely useful for me and the purposes I require.

Well maybe not casual, but how many builds (traits +gears) do you use with yours characters ?

I use different gear, weapons and traits for builds in all 5 of my level 80 characters.

Nobody said that the current implementation was better than the plugin ;) . I highly doubt that it was crippled on purpose for monetization because it would require extra effort to actually do so. I have seen in other games, for instance,

where plugins were disabled because they contained aspects that the devs considered detrimental

to gameplay.

And it is not the case here, Anet was totally fine with arctemplates for

years

(as i said the dev are in contact with anet) before releasing their own poor version (imo) and demand deltaconnected to stop it.

So why couldn't Anet change their policy or stance at any point in time on plugins? Past behaviour is not necessarily indicative of future behaviour.

It would probably help a little if

you could think outside the box

, instead of coming to the conclusion that they must only be out for money.

And i could tell you exactly the same :)

Why would they ask arc templates to be disabled otherwise?

I just gave you a reason in the previous sentence in the post that you quoted. Not my problem if you for some reason refuse to accept it as a possibility.

[maddoctor.2738]

Welcome to the forums. As you noticed there are a lot of posters that only read the topic title and don't bother to read the actual topic. You bring a very interesting complication on the subject of dps meters that has never come up before, definitely not in "the other thread" on the subject. Streaming services like GeForce Now cannot use addons which creates a divide between those playing a game on them and those playing on their own machines. To be honest though I'd rather nvidia allow specific addons rather than Anet creating a dps meter, that way other addons can be added to the game

[TeeDavido.8729]

@kharmin.7683 said:Welcome to the forums!

Also note that there is a search function which would have found all of the DPS related threads. There are several. Unfortunately.

Thank you!

[TeeDavido.8729]

@"maddoctor.2738" said:Welcome to the forums. As you noticed there are a lot of posters that only read the topic title and don't bother to read the actual topic. You bring a very interesting complication on the subject of dps meters that has never come up before, definitely not in "the other thread" on the subject. Streaming services like GeForce Now cannot use addons which creates a divide between those playing a game on them and those playing on their own machines. To be honest though I'd rather nvidia allow specific addons rather than Anet creating a dps meter, that way other addons can be added to the game

Thank you! Yes I agree, I already requested addon installation from Geforce Now but also thought it would be a good idea to request it from Anet in hopes of maybe one of the two happening.